FL and MI are now being used as tools by the Clinton campaign.

[madfloridian]

It is a shameful thing for her to do. It is shameful for the two states to go along with it. It is an effort to undermine the party, the DNC, the rules, Howard Dean, Barack Obama, and anyone else who stands in her way.

Large donors for Hillary have been calling Howard Dean and taking him out to lunch...to threaten him that their money is gone if Hillary does not get her way. It is called bribing the referee.

However you view the situation, the implication couldn’t be clearer: “If you want the money to keep coming in, you had better do what we say.” I guess they haven’t noticed all the money pooring in to the Obama campaign. I’m also guessing Howard Dean, who knows a thing or two about grassroots organizing himself, probably has. If I was heading up the DNC, I would be more concerned with keeping the 1,000,000 Obama contributors happy than a handful of venture capitalists.

Maybe they can just hit Obama in the knee with a pipe instead.

We found out months ago from TNR that the Clinton campaign was not using the resources of the DNC, not using the tools of the 50 State campaign. She was building her own party.

I have said for a long time that there was already a third party, that it was called the DLC. I am more and more thinking I was right.



About the DLC leadership

From left to right: Harold Ford, Jr. is chairman of the DLC. U.S. Sen. Tom Carper is vice chair of the DLC; U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is chair of the DLC's American Dream Initiative; Al From is founder and CEO of the DLC. (Not pictured: Bruce Reed is DLC president; Pennsylvania State Representative Jennifer Mann is chair of the DLC's Legislative Advisory Board (LAB); Columbus (OH) Mayor Michael Coleman is chair of the DLC's Local Elected Officials Network(LEON).)

More about the shadow DNC

Has Hillary begun her own shadow DNC

A few months earlier, The New Republic had reported that Clinton's camp was "laying the groundwork to circumvent the DNC in the event that Clinton wins the nomination." This shadow DNC had a number of integral parts: adviser Harold Ickes would develop state-of-the-art technology to help Clinton reach prospective voters; EMILY's List and Clinton's allies in organized labor would launch an unprecedented effort to turn out supporters, especially women voters; former DNC chair Terry McAuliffe would raise untold sums from wealthy donors and the business community; and communications honcho Howard Wolfson would direct an unrelenting war room. Ever since 1992 the Clintons had used the DNC as an outpost for raising money from big donors, and funding candidates had taken precedence over nurturing progressive organizers. That model would continue into '08. Dean could remain at the DNC as a figurehead but only if he stayed in line.

She went further. She even said the rules of the DNC for delegates are NOT the rules of her campaign. Some of us were hoping she did not mean it, but I am pretty sure she did.

Hillary campaign says DNC delegates rules are not the rules of her campaign.

The rules the party has put in place to choose its nominee are not the rules of the Clinton campaign and, just like the Obama campaign, we are doing what we can under those rules to secure the requisite number of delegates for the nomination. One way to avoid the situation described above is to figure out some way to honor the votes of Michigan and Florida, where there was record turnout. Counting the delegates in Florida and Michigan is a civil rights issue, and a solution needs to be figured out before the convention.

The Democrats in both states have loudly complained that they kept trying to contact the DNC, they say no one would work with them. I have so many articles that show that not to be true, that is is lie,...but this is the most damning.

Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public instead.

Here is an 8 minute interview he gave on NPR. I knew how they treated the DNC and Dean early on in the process, but apparently the two states made this latest public move while refusing to deal with the DNC. That is a low blow and disrespectful.

NPR interview with Dean

There is no transcript of the interview with NPR, and it is about 8 minutes long. Near the end he says the two states took it public while refusing to have discussions with the DNC.

Michigan and Florida have a lot of good people who have not been told the truth about what happened. Their state's Democratic political leaders are responsible for this mess. They all knew the consequences, but now they are allowing themselves to become pawns in this game for the White House.

Some grown-ups in both states need to step in.

[tekisui]

1. And she is setting a dangerous frame: Dems will lose in Nov., if we don't

seat MI and FL. It makes no sense to put that message out there. Especially not for the handful of delegates she may or may not pick up.


Her game plan now, IMO, is to try and paint Obama as against the voters, and "unelectable". Then pressure the remaining SuperD's to break her way, for the "good of the party". It is all she has left. She will try to weaken Obama's image and beg for the Supers. It is a painful strategy to watch. She can't win on her own merit.

[madfloridian]

4. Right. The number of delegates for her is negligible. It is meant to hurt Obama

I am getting together some more words from FL Dems, where they appear to just be unaware of reality, spouting talking points.

This is going to hurt us all it if continues.

[jgraz]

8. More specifically, this is meant to hurt Obama in the General Election

Hillary will press this in order to cost the Democrats these two states in the fall.

[phrigndumass]

31. I'm starting to believe this

That would be a huge "See? I told you so!"

[madfloridian]

32. I just posted a TIME article in my last post in this thread.

It is vicious. Says about the same thing.

I didn't want to believe all this, but I guess I have to.

BTW I like your posts about the numbers. Very important, thanks.

[phrigndumass]

33. Going to read the TIME article now, thanks!

I really enjoy reading your posts as well. Yours is a sensible voice in the midst of all this madness.

:hi:

[OzarkDem]

42. She's right

FL and MI voters deserve to have their votes counted.

And Dems winning in November is far more important than Obama winning the primary.

[Dr.Phool]

46. She's wrong. Their votes will count in November.

Maybe in Michigan.

Down here in Florida, we're dumb enough to move the election up to Halloween and expect it to count.

[cyclezealot]

54. We do not support a revote, because I have no

great interest in whether either Hillary or Obama win. They are both flawed candidates. Reason , we support the Michigan / Florida premeptive primaries back in January. The system stinks and gives us choices such as we now have. / Obama has his supporters in the Michigan legislature. A plan for the revote will include both Obama / Clinton positions. Maybe Obama is afraid he will loose in a Michigan re vote. ? The state senate will not pass a revote unless Obama is satisified with plan. / Maybe some here with their vengence are just determined to have Michigan vote Republican come November.

[stillcool]

62. 48 States abide by the rules..

while 2 break the rules, being fully aware of the consequences. Why is it, that rules no longer matter in our Party, or in our country?

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates

By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.

The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
Rules in both parties say states cannot hold their 2008 primary contests before Feb. 5, except for a few hand-picked states that hold elections in January.
--------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15. "We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Even states that do not have favored status are trying to jump toward the front of the line. Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.

Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.

The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.

Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date.
They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------

Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her.

“I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5.
The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.

"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC's move may have repercussions beyond Florida as other state legislatures consider disregarding the Feb. 5 cutoff. Last week, Michigan's state Senate voted to hold its primary on Jan. 15. The state's House is expected to approve the earlier date as well.

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.

State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.

The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.

Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

Michigan, in moving up its primary, faces a similar penalty from the Democratic National Committee.
-----------------------------------------------------

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.

But Former Michigan Gov. James Blanchard, co-chairman of Hillary Clinton's Michigan campaign, told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the pledge allows candidates' spouses to campaign in the state, allows the candidates to speak to groups of 200 or fewer and permits fundraising.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

As it has become clear that the delegate race will be very close, politicians in the Democratic party are discussing the implications of the DNC pledge, and whether it would be wise to seat the delegates after all, rather than risk offending these important states that could be influential in the November election.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Voters Face Confusion in Michigan Dem Race
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/09/voters_face_confusion_in_michi.html
January 9, 2008
By Peter Slevin
CHICAGO -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the only top-tier Democrat on the Jan. 15 Michigan primary ballot, but followers of her chief rivals are hoping to wound her all the same.

A fresh poll suggests that running nearly unopposed will not mean winning nearly 100 percent of the vote.

The campaigns of Sen. Barack Obama and former senator John Edwards are urging their supporters to cast ballots for "uncommitted," according to state Democratic party chairman Mark Brewer. The Obama campaign says there may be "grass-roots efforts," but that the Chicago-based campaign is not involved.
--------------------------------------------------------------
They say on the radio spot that they intend to vote "uncommitted" and give Obama a chance to compete for those delegates in Denver.

An "uncommitted" vote would take the place of a write-in, which is not permitted.

"People are already frustrated here in Detroit because they can't cast a ballot for Obama. Many on their absentee ballots many have tried to write in Obama, but they have spoiled the ballots," said Sam Riddle, Monica Conyers's chief of staff. "We know we've got to educate the voters in a hurry."
Following Michigan law, local clerks are allowing voters a chance to redo their ballots.

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."

The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot.

The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.
-----------------------------
The DNC has threatened to punish states that break tradition and the rules by challenging Iowa and New Hampshire as first to pic. The committee has threatened to unseat the delegates of states that go ahead defy the primary rules set by the party

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

72. The "Frontloading" by FL, MI and Big states would help Hillary

and hurt everyone else, is what the worry was.

Remember back then, the worry about so many big states going early?

And thanks stillcool47, for the excellent docs and links,I book marked them for future use.

[madfloridian]

2. "Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call"

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call

This is from back in August. While Dean tried to talk to them, one of many times....they were filing lawsuits and arguing among themselves.

TALLAHASSEE — As Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean put out peace feelers to Florida Thursday, a Tampa party activist filed a federal lawsuit seeking to make the party recognize results of the state's Jan. 29 presidential primary.

Participants in an hour-long conference call with Dean said they held out hope for a compromise to resolve the DNC ultimatum to back off the early date. The party's rules committee last weekend gave Florida Democrats 30 days to comply with its rules that allow only four states — Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada — to select delegates before Feb. 5. Failure to do so will lead the national party to strip the state of its 210 votes at the Democratic National Convention.

This was last August.

From Fire Dog Lake, Jane Hamsher....they all knew the consequences.

http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/25/dnc-to-florida-democrats-not-so-fast/

"For a state that already has so much sway over presidential elections, and which has such a horrendous track record of verifiable electoral infrastructure, a decision to leap ahead of virtually all other states in the primary calendar can only be characterized as a power grab in the tradition of Bush, DeLay, and Gingrich. It is also almost certainly an attempt to stick it to Howard Dean of the DNC, whose new primary calendar finally allows minorities such as Latinos, African-Americans and union members to have a say in determining the next president, which is an anathema to Florida's elites who have done everything in their power over the past decade to make sure that those groups are not even allowed to vote. The move is also a huge boon to the frontrunning campaigns of Rudy Giuliani and Hillary Clinton, both of whom have tremendous advantages in Florida. If Florida is on January 29th, it will be extremely difficult to see a path for any other candidate as long as Clinton or Giuliani manage to come within a close second in New Hampshire. As I type this, that is a criteria both candidates meet quite easily."

Grown-ups step in, please.

[VenusRising]

3. K&R

The DLC despises Howard Dean because he has succeeded where they have continuously failed. Howard Dean has won Democrats more seats and votes with his 50 State Strategy. The DLC lost votes throughout Terry McAuliffe's tenure as DNC chair and during Clinton's presidency. The DLC is not good for Democracy, and the real Dems need to step up and stop the DLC from taking down Howard Dean.

[Cassandra]

40. Actually, the DLC doesn't even realize...

that they failed. They mistook the presence of a great candidate, Bill Clinton, as evidence of their superiority. Without that candidate, they are nothing, just a money suck with no useful ideas.

[krkaufman]

51. "a great candidate" .... who only won election because of an historic third-party candidate ...

... drained enough Republican votes for 43% to be enough to win the Presidency. Ross Perot should definitely be on the Clintons' Christmas card list.

[MaineDem]

5. Mad, I am so with you on this

Both campaigns knew precisely what the rules were. No ambiguity; no deception; no question.

I'm so disappointed in the Clinton campaign. I have a great respect for Hillary and even supported her (quietly) for a little while. I am so outraged at the actions she and her campaign are taking regarding these primaries. And most people aren't paying close enough attention to know what the real story is. It's totally frightening.

Seriously, I'm appalled.

[MelissaB]

11. Ditto that!

I couldn't have said it near as well. :hi:

K&R

[madfloridian]

17. Thanks. It needs to stop now.

It is hurting all of us for two states to have their egos stroked.

The sad part is that March 11 was the original primary day for FL.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1914

[krkaufman]

52. March 11 -- how positively pivotal Florida could have been

... rather than another instance of electoral mismanagement.

This may be getting redundant or old, but thank you so much, mad, for your hyper-vigilance and advocacy on this issue. Would that Tim Padgett had your depth of understanding on the issue. (What an uninformed and/or biased twit.)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

73. yes, a March Fl primary and a Clinton sans arrogance - she would be frontrunner now

but she stepped into her own glop.

[madfloridian]

13. I appreciate your opinion on this a lot.

It is getting out of control.

[AzDar]

84. It is shocking. To think I used to respect her a great deal.....

:puke:

[lastknowngood]

6. Of course Obama would never do that

n/t

[madfloridian]

9. I doubt he would do something like this.

No one is perfect, but what is going on this time is corrupting the party.

[totodeinhere]

20. If the shoe were on the other foot Clinton wouldn't do it.

She is only doing it because it would benefit her campaign. If it were the other way around, she would be defending DNC rules and explaining why those two states don't count.

Remember, the Clintons will do anything to win including destroying the Democratic Party.

[Yael]

7. I know he has more class than this, but I would love to see Dr. Dean

stand up at the convention and make a comment to the effect of, "no matter how hard they tried to bribe and threaten with their deep pockets, we stood our ground and stuck to the 50 state strategy".

[Ichingcarpenter]

10. Super Delegate conference on June 3rd when they vote on who is Prez

I'm listening to Rachel Maddow right now and I don't see another alternative other
than wait tell August. The last primary is in June, the super delegates hold a caucus or such
and vote.

[madfloridian]

12. Dean has said no to Bredesen's superdelegate conference.

Is that what you are referring to?

[Ichingcarpenter]

15. Yes, I didn't know he said no.

She just had the Governor on and after the
break she will have Michael Bender on for
other ideas and discussions.

Never liked the super delegate deal but
something needs to be done soon and not wait until August.

I trust Dean to find some kind of solution to the impasse soon.

[krkaufman]

53. Seriously started howling when I saw your HypnO!toad sig graphic. n/t

[Yael]

14. I think Dean declined that offer

I heard Rachel talking about it the other night. I thought it was an interesting option, too.

[seafan]

16. DLC is *Her Version* of Shadow Government. These are the people who are damaging our party's name.

Otherwise known as the Corporate Elite, who think they control the money, the media and the *chosen candidates* to stifle the grassroots of our party.


If we remove these people from the top of the power structure, it will be a major turning point for our party's return to its true roots, at long last.

The DLC'ers, the Blue Dogs and their assorted lobbyists, panderers and special interest kissers make up the Corporate Beast.

[BadgerKid]

50. My ears perked reading "shadow"

In a recent article I read on DU, that was the word used in conjunction with the neocons dismantling the government. :mad:

Edit: spelling

[krkaufman]

56. "who think they control ..." .... Sadly, they have... and still do.

As we've seen the past number of weeks, they're not going to go quietly into the night.

[Dr Fate]

18. You were calling this months and months ago.

I had little idea of what you were so upset about, but now I get it.

No wonder the DLC idea was to scapegoat Dean over this from the beginning- 2 birds w/ one stone, as it were...

[Major Hogwash]

19. Good-bye, Hillary. Go back to New York and lick your wounds.

It's over, you lost, get over it.

You're out, Obama's in, get used to it.

And take Bubba with ya!!

[40ozDonkey]

21. Madfloridian, you are tireless in your service.

Thanks for that.

But they're WILLING pawns. That's the worst.

I've noticed that my fellow Floridians in Broward didn't give two shits about their votes not counting until mid-February. It's no shock who they support.

Nothing sadder than partisans who believe in Democracy only when it suits their best interests.

[madfloridian]

22. The people in those two states are being manipulated by the state parties.

And the Florida bloggers are becoming a powerful group who simply say nothing about it.

The media is on the side of the state party, there is no truth.

[lark]

60. I know something sadder

Dems who have no values when push comes to shove, who are willing to disenfranchise millions of people, just to give their favored candidate an extra edge. That's the worst!

BTW - I voted Edwards, so it's not just HRC Dems who are pissed. Get a real clue here.

[madfloridian]

80. Okay, lark, up front with it. What is it you are accusing me of doing.

This is on several threads now you have done this.

What are you accusing me of doing?

[Johnny__Motown]

23. I thought it was obvious that she was always using both states as tools.

But once again you and I agree on this issue. Thanks for another great post.

[madfloridian]

24. The sad part is the state leaders are allowing it to happen.

I see the local news here, and I read the columns and op eds...I feel sick at what I read.

[madfloridian]

25. She has set her own terms and rules for delegates... her way.

I noticed that she did some flip-flopping on the topic.

Hillary sets rules to seat delegates.

Here is one way she said to do it.

Clinton tells Inskeep that the Michigan and Florida pledged delegates should count because both are seen as key battleground states in the general election.

But if the national party does not agree, she says, the states should re-do the primaries.

"If there is to be any difference between my proposal that we count these votes and any other course of action, it should be a complete re-do of the primary and nothing else is fair," she says.

Earlier she had said this, so it was a turnaround.

This is really going to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn't have any choice whatsoever. And I don't think that there should be any do-over or any kind of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.'

She is using the famous talking point...the GOP made them do it. That is just not true at all.

[lark]

61. Obama has also flip flopped for his own advantage

During a debate, first he said Superdelegates have to vote like their state. When the moderator pointed out that Kennedy and Kerry were from Mass. and so would have to vote Clinton, Obama laughed and said well, we'll have to rethink that strategy. The next day he came out that superdelegates had to vote the way "the country" had voted. If that's not self serving flip flopping, what is? Get real, he's a politician, same as her. They are all looking for their own advantage. He's no different, despite all the hype. Look at his "typical white woman" statement. If a white person said that about a black, they'd be pilloried, but I haven't seen one negative comment about that on this board.

[madrchsod]

26. michigan`s democrats walked away from the issue

and it`s over. florida? who the hell knows what those idiots will do. she tried get away with breaking the rules and she failed. she`s whining like a little baby..i think it`s time for her to grow up

[Skip Intro]

27. God Damn Michigan and Florida!

[jgraz]

29. Somebody's got his brand new talking point from mommy.

Don't use it all in one place!

[Demeter]

47. Excuse Me?

Michigan is already damned--between Bush and Hillary, we don't have a whole lot of anything going for us. Blame the people warming the leadership seats--who won't be sitting much longer, IMO.

[madfloridian]

28. Jeremy Ring bragged they blew up the whole primary system..he introduced the bill.

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

And Jeremy Ring, a Democratic state senator from Broward County and co-sponsor of the legislation, defended it.

"If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."

Ring said that even with the boycott, Florida Democrats are no worse off than in past primaries.

"My hope is we've blown up the whole primary system," Ring said. "It would be the biggest legacy we'll get from this legislation."

This is what makes me bitter. This week Hillary was blaming Obama for the lack of a revote...and her supporters are falling all over themselves to agree.

They wanted to be important, they said size mattered, not rules.

I had no preference really. Supported Edwards from the start, then looked at all three. Felt good about all of them.

It was when Hillary started demanding the FL delegates, making them her issue that we changed to Obama. Now we are very impressed.

We had high hope for a good year for Democrats. Now there is nothing but hatred and division. There is blame assigned to those who not deserve it.

[Demeter]

48. Ring Sounds LIke a Ringer, and 1st Class Idiot.

My condolences.

[madfloridian]

30. Nothing I have written matters.....the Time article tonight is all that will matter.

They are the respected media, the ones people look to. All the stuff we know really happened, just does not matter.

This is one of the ugliest articles I have seen on the topic. It is filled with half truths, insults, and not much more.

It really hurts to think real truth doesn't matter.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1724374,00.html

Hillary will somehow get the nomination. It is her nature, and the media is mostly with her on this topic. No one stands up for Dean and the DNC, they are fighting a losing battle.

Oh, wait someone Tbilisi, Georgia...yes the other GA said some nice things about him. That never happens here anymore.

Misreading Howard Dean

At least some kind words.

[phrigndumass]

35. "a clique of arrogant patricians thwarting the popular will"

Amazing. Why would TIME say Howard Dean and the DNC painted themselves into a corner, when all the candidates pledged to support the rules last year? It was the republican-led legislature in Florida that moved up the primary in violation of the rules for both parties, right?

[madfloridian]

38. They say it because they can. They are the big shots.

They can make or break a person

[lark]

63. Sorry, Madfloridian, but it speaks the real truth

It's just a truth you don't like because it's not favorable to your support for disenfranchisement. This isn't about Hillary, it's about values and it's sad that so many Dems on this board seem to have lost theirs and are supporting the Repuglican value of disenfrancisement. It could easily cost us a victory, is it worth that? Why not count half the votes, and even be more than generous and allow all of MI uncommitted to count for Obama - isn't that more than fair? Why are you afraid of Hillary getting 19 more votes, she's behind by over a hundred, this won't make a difference as to who wins the primary, but it very well could be the difference over who wins the GE, a Dem or a Repug? The article is 100% spot on, even though it sickens me that we have come to this.

[madfloridian]

66. Hot damn.. "the Republican value of disenfranchisement"...new meme?

:rofl:

If I can't have the truth I want, then I will take no truth at all.

:eyes:

[krkaufman]

34. If Hillary continues with this into another day... Dean needs to speak out. n/t

[madfloridian]

36. I think many have privately.

I think more will do so if it continues.

[madfloridian]

37. Wow, someone found the video of Geller on the senate floor...ridiculing own amendment.

I had been looking for this everywhere. The DNC had this and more when FL begged them. He is practically laughing his own amendment off the floor.

Thanks to Willyourvotebcounted for the video.

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/files/geller_amendment_fullh.264%20300Kbps.mov

Bookmark this video and share it.

Here is more about that lovely man, one who is doing everything he can to discredit Dean.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1910

[psychmommy]

41. keep on putting it out there mad.

they forget everything is on tape. it will all come out and fl voters need to see this garbage and put these fools out. i bet there is film in michigan too. the truth will come out.

[Diane R]

39. MadFloridian, thank you so much for the work you do for this forum. It's very much appreciated.

[YDogg]

43. I used to have high hopes for Harold Ford. Jr.

Seems as though he's just another tool.

[Myrina]

44. Someone please just ask her:

If the shoe were on the other foot and YOU were leading in delegates and popular vote, Mrs. Rodham-Clinton, would you support the other candidate's assertion that these 2 states get a "do over", or do you want it now because its your last-grasp-chance to cause a brokered convention?


JEBUS!! I wish she'd get over her damn ambition and let the country move forward!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[elixir]

45. It's not Clinton's fault that Howard Dean, MI and FL screwed this thing up. Why don't you vent

on them. BTW, aren't you a little disappointed that Obama has put a monkey wrench into the MI re vote. too bad, I guess he was afraid to rely on Dems only.

[Scurrilous]

49. K & R

:thumbsup:

[snappyturtle]

55. K&R Thanks for your all your efforts on this issue! Sen.Clinton's

tactics are inexcusable and self-serving.

[Moochy]

57. Madprops to Madfloridian

Her threads are like raid to the droves of newbie HRC supporters!
"Quick everyone, let's show our support for HRC at DU!"

[lark]

58. There are no grown ups in this political situation

Everyone is looking out for their own skins, trying to figure out ways to game the system to their own perceived advantage. This goes for all of them - Howard Dean, DNC, Barack, Hillary, Florida and Mi Dems. When these concerns have arisen in the past over a "forbidden" primary process in a particular state, the DNC made lots of noise, but ended up seating the disupted delegates. I'm sure that the FL and MI Dems counted on this happening again, only they didn't realize how heavily Dean would tilt towards Obama so wouldn't go by past precedent.

Come on, we are supposed to be Democrats and value votes. We are not talking about some school yard game, folks, we are talking about picking our representative to run the country - this is important way beyond Hillary and Obama. I know you Obamites think he walks on water and polishes his halo every day, but take him out of this and look at what's at stake - our country, our very constitution! Your average Dems in FL and MI are pissed and with excellent reason. We want our votes to count. If the Dem party demeans us by disenfranchising us, how can you not understand our anger? You all thought it was so awful when Jeb and the governor of Ohio kept down the black vote by using tainted voter purges, this has the exact same affect! You are either for counting all votes or you are for suppressing votes for those you disagree with. If the Dem party supports disenfranchisement, can't you see that's a right wing position and will really hurt the party? Obama will probably win the nomination even if all the votes are counted, why are you so set on not counting them? Which is more important, enforcing arbitrary rules that have NEVER been enforced before, or counting votes? Who cares who said what, when, count the damn votes. It's not so hard, especially with FL that had a full slate of candidates.

I have a really bad feeling that if FL and MI end up being disenfranchised, the Repugs will keep control of the country. How can we win without Mi? Is that what you want? If FL votes are counted, I assure you the end results will be a lot closer than if they aren't. We might even take FL, there's such anger with Bush. Every day in the local paper, there's a letter from an angry Dem decrying the Dem party brokers (yes, including our own FL idiot Dems) who have brought us to this mess and asking why they should support the party that now wants to disenfranchise them. I understand their anger and am there too. I will vote Dem no matter what, but if this isn't resolved, no way will I contribute one red dime or ounce of energy to the GE because of their perfidity and callous manipulation of the system.

[madfloridian]

59. Your accusation toward Dean and the DNC is outrageous.

You should be ashamed. Is that the new tactic now?

Dean has been totally neutral.

[lark]

64. Dean's & DNC's stubborness,

combined with the idiocy of FL and MI Dems created this mess. He's not in this alone. What should I be ashamed of, supporting counting votes, when disenfranchisement seems to be in vogue? Sorry, can't apologize for that.

[madfloridian]

65. You accused him of Obama bias. That is not true at all. Hillary is using the two states.

He and the DNC went by the rules. FL and MI broke them. Hillary is using them for her own political gain. They are allowing themselves to be used that way.

FL and MI need to start taking back control from the idiots who got them in this mess. Start with Bill Nelson

Accusing the chairman of bias when he and the DNC are the only ones not breaking the rules is pretty damned ludicrous.

[lark]

68. Sorry "rules" are not the criteria -

values are. Is what Dean is doing productive or counter-productive, does it promote Dem chances of winning the GE or hurt them? When rules were broken in past, it was always overlooked, MI and FL pols counted on this happening again, but Dean refuses to play by some of the past "rules". Why is he so stuck on treating this process like a school yard game, and not following past precedents? Why is the precedent of timing of the primaries more important that the precedent of seating all delegates? Why is he sticking so fast to one set of rules, can't have earlier primaries unless you are in the chosen states, but ignoring the other precedent of seating all delegates, regardless? I can only think of two reasons, stuborness or bias.

Really, I don't care why he's taken this position, it hardly matters. What matters is that this is costing the Dem party big time and he's one of the main players.

[madfloridian]

70. Gotcha. Rules don't matter now. Right? They only matter for other people?

Gotcha.

[tnlefty]

81. Playing by the rules is part of my values and what I've been teaching

my sons, but I need to know asap if we're gonna need some do-over values! I've got 18 yrs. in one of them, and he'll be off to school in a few months. I'll have to begin a crash course on our new do-over values before he leaves home just to ensure that he's clear on them - I'll have more time to straighten the other two out. :rofl:

[bvar22]

79. Deans's Stubbornness:

1) Everyone should play by the same rules.

2) Michigan and Florida KNEW THE RULES AND THE CONSEQUENCES before they decided to break them.

3) Case Closed

I can live with that kind of stubbornness.
I can't live with making special exceptions after the fact because someone whines a lot.

[madfloridian]

82. Well said.

A leader who abides by the rules.

[stillcool]

67. I'm not understanding what people...

in these states thought was going to happen. You've knows since August what the consequences were going to be. Why the outrage now? Why not do something back then before your state party sent you down the river?

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
Rules in both parties say states cannot hold their 2008 primary contests before Feb. 5, except for a few hand-picked states that hold elections in January.
--------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15. "We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Even states that do not have favored status are trying to jump toward the front of the line. Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.

Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

Michigan, in moving up its primary, faces a similar penalty from the Democratic National Committee.
-----------------------------------------------------

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.

But Former Michigan Gov. James Blanchard, co-chairman of Hillary Clinton's Michigan campaign, told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the pledge allows candidates' spouses to campaign in the state, allows the candidates to speak to groups of 200 or fewer and permits fundraising.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates

By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.

The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date.
They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------

Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her.

“I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

As it has become clear that the delegate race will be very close, politicians in the Democratic party are discussing the implications of the DNC pledge, and whether it would be wise to seat the delegates after all, rather than risk offending these important states that could be influential in the November election.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[SidneyCarton]

69. All part of the plan...

She is already calling into question the legitimacy of an Obama nomination, without these states in play. This way she can either split the convention or critically damage the Obama campaign's credibility in the GE. In the end she's hoping the chickens will come home to roost in november with a McCain victory, granting her a second chance in 2012, as the "legitimate" candidate.

[parkeradison]

71. Hillary and Michigan and Florida

My, my the Clintons have a large "playbook" to draw upon. The scary part is that they might just be getting started.

[MonkeyFunk]

74. It's not shameful

to want to count the votes and for the votes to count.

[Auntie Bush]

75. FL and MI are now being used as tools by the OBAMA campaign.

By DISFRANCHISING FL and MI voters...he helps himself politically! He deliberately refuses to work out a fair solution so they can be counted.

It's a republican tactic to disenfranchise voters!

[madfloridian]

77. Sure it is. If you think that....sure it is.

.

[Auntie Bush]

78. Wow! The genius behind your post.

Such deep thinking and reasoning ability!

[madfloridian]

83. Hey, be fair. I never claimed to be a genius or think deeply.

.

[Dr.Phool]

85. Getting through some peoples heads is kinda like drilling for oil.

Sometimes you get through, and sometimes you're stuck with a dry hole.

[Kurovski]

76. Perhaps they knew ahead of time that this stunt would be the only way?

I doubt they didn't know going into this that they wouldn't pull it off otherwise.

Always with the advance warplans.

[happygoluckytoyou]

86. OBAMA.... MCCAIN....CLINTON..... MY CHOICE, IN THAT SEQUENCE

AND THAT SAYS IT ALL

[madfloridian]

87. I was right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5237944&mesg_id=5237944

[yewberry]

88. There really are two separate issues here.

The first is that the states moved their primaries, and what the heck to do about it. Many of us were discussing this long, long before the primary became a two-candidate race. The second is related to the results of their contests and how that could affect the candidates.

It's a mistake to assume that someone's opinion about MI & FL is necessarily due to their choice of candidate.

[madfloridian]

89. Actually I am saying the campaign is using the two states, manipulating them.

Bill's statement today is pretty clear.

The states worked together to do it for attention, now they are allowing themselves to be used as tools.

[yewberry]

90. Yes, my comment was more general their your OP

and it's borne mostly out of frustration that people can't seem to get their minds around the problem as more than a candidate issue.

[madfloridian]

91. Hillary's top donors....are threats to DNC and DCCC

I read today that some of her major donors wrote Pelosi about her statement on superdelegates. They want her to retract or they will hurt her fundraising.

I remember that they offered to fund the primary revotes in FL and MI

"Ten donors to Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential campaign offered Wednesday to give Michigan $12 million to hold a rerun of its Democratic primary as she and rival Barack Obama traded sharp words over the proposed June 3 contest.

With state lawmakers facing a deadline today for approval of the plan, Clinton made a quick stop Wednesday in Detroit, where she called on Obama to endorse the do-over election.

Sen. Obama speaks passionately on the campaign trail about empowering the American people," she said. "Today I'm urging him to match those words with action."

Making him sound like the bad guy because her campaign flip-flopped on the delegates...now even willing to pay for primaries.

They had lunch with Dean and threatened the same thing to him about Florida...count the state or else we will get our money back.

Bribing the Referee

The Florida party did it again...fouled up another election.

[shomino]

92. This is just underhanded.. .and darn near despicable.

[madfloridian]

93. Agreed.

.

[redqueen]

94. Just now?

I thought this had been the case for a while...

[madfloridian]

95. More now.

More than ever.

[madfloridian]

96. Kick because they took it to the media and refused to negotiate.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888