Of those of you who are definitely voting for John Kerry for President...

[CharlesGroce]

Subject: Of those of you who definitely will support John Kerry for How many of you actually agree with his Iraq policy, you know, more troops to subjugate "the enemy", which happen to be just ordinary people like you and me?

And how do you feel about applying some 'strategy' so that your party will win the election this fall, rather than demanding that the party you vote for represent you and your views?

Well I'll never know, because I don't vote for representatives that demand that I shape my beliefs around their platform in order to 'win'. Last I heard, that ain't how democracy is supposed to work.

Here's a democrat who definitely will not be voting for John Kerry, and who's proud of it. And if you say Ralph Nader, I'll kick you in the eye.

Kucinich for President!

[malatesta1137]

1. Get real!

Kucinich can't get elected to dog catcher. Kerry is a brilliant man and a fucking HERO!!

[CharlesGroce]

2. Hurrah hurrah!

Oh, this mentality can't be representative, say it ain't so.

[CharlesGroce]

4. very substantive of you

so that's why his war strategy works, brilliant indeed.

[Ironpost]

12. Not only that

he is cool calm and collected under pressure, in contrast bush... need I say more... bush is a miserable failure

[CharlesGroce]

21. how would you know that he is cool

under pressure? I don't think the media has let you see him under pressure. Yes Bush = bad, but Kerry = the richest senator of all time who also happens to be supporting the fucking war and ignoring his constituency = bad 2.

[Progressive420]

54. but its still

not quite as bad as bush and the lesser of two evils is always better than the great of two evils

[LWolf]

50. This is real.

I have no clue whether or not Kerry is "brilliant." I'm not holding my breath to see any signs of "brilliance." While he has my vote in November, I am uneasy with many of his positions, and won't pretend that I agree with them. I've seen and heard "brilliance" regularly from Dennis Kucinich. He's the only politician I know that need to footnote his speeches.

Kerry has some military honors. I honor him for that. Military heros comprise a fraction of the collection of heroic people serving others across the nation and the planet. Military action is not the only way to serve in heroic ways. In my opinion, Dennis Kucinich is also a "hero." For championing peace, social and economic justice, and civil liberties as a public leader in the current political climate; for doing so with a steadfast consistency, for the country and it's citizens rather than for personal gain.

Kucinich is not running for "dog catcher." He's a member of Congress, and regularly wins elections:

http://www.kucinich.us/electable.php

If any Democrat has a history of attracting swing voters and "Reagan Democrats" in winning elections against better-funded Republican opponents, it is Dennis Kucinich. He has repeatedly defeated entrenched incumbents. He beat a Republican incumbent for mayor in 1977, for state senator in 1994 (overcoming the national right-wing tide) and for Congress in 1996.

His Congressional district includes the suburb of Parma, Ohio, described as "one of the original homes of the Reagan Democrats." An Ohio daily calls it a "conservative Democratic district," which he carried by 74% in 2002. Being a success there may be a better predictor of national success than holding statewide office in a liberal stronghold like Vermont or Massachusetts.

Kucinich is a winner because he builds Wellstone-like grassroots campaigns against bigger-spending opponents. He is a winner because of his blue collar roots and populism, reflected in his battles for heartland voters against unfair, corporate-friendly trade deals.

He is an unabashed progressive who wins because swing voters who don't agree with him on every issue still see him as a fighter for their interests, as someone who will put the interests of workers and middle-class consumers ahead of big-money interests. No Democrat is better positioned in 2004 to attract 'Reagan Democrats' and swing voters with a frontal attack on how Bush policies hurt them and favor the rich.

He's not going to win the nomination. At this point, he is not campaigning to win the nomination. Which anyone who checked out what he stands for, and what he is doing, would know.

A couple of other "realities:"

Incivility does not make contacts and influence voters. "Shouting" an irrelevant point does not make reality go away...or go your way. Here is a reality that doesn't go away faced with incivility:

There are democrats who are unhappy with Kerry's campaign and his stance on the issues. They are voters. They will vote in November. Ridiculing them does not increase the odds of their vote going to Kerry.

[Tdieci]

74. Neo_Cons Inverse America

Neo-conservative Inverse America


America has lost its honor in Iraq due to the fool-headedness of the Bush Administration. We, the public, have realized that we went to Iraq on a profound over-estimation (if not outright lie) of immanent threat and vast stock-piles of weapons of mass destruction . So in a redirection by this administration, the war was rationalized and the mission became a construct. Then the objective was to bring a utopian society to the Iraqi people in the form of freedom, democracy, peace, and the end of a tyrannical regime. With the release of the exposed abuses in the Iraqi jails, the war's true colors have surfaces and have exposed a profound rational lie. The citizens of the world have come to realize that the current Iraqi situation has become oppressive martial law, chaos, continued war, death, torture, and the perceived American-tyrannical occupation. Unfortunately for us and our image around the world, these exposed abuses in the Iraqi jails have just enlightened the whole situation. Our image has become an Inverse America.

This Iraqi war has been a farce from its conception, and those that conceived this war are a farce as well and should be held accountable. On top of that, the so-called hawks that supported this irresponsible endeavor lurk in congress, the media , and the public at large. They are all fools. They have brought over a generation of shame to our country compounded onto the generation of debt to our treasure. In looting our treasure and, more importantly, sacrificing the lives of our service men and women, the Republicans and the conservative Democrats have put our entire national security on the line; they are in the process of sacrificing the future of America as we once knew it . Every day spent in Iraq has exponentially intensified the hatred towards America. Every man, woman, adult, child, Iraqi, or American who have been killed during this conflict are victims of the Bush administrations failed policies and planning. This war is murder. There are no heroes left in Iraq, only victims exist. Every soldier in Iraq has been failed and victimized by Bush's policy, rather non-policy, and the shameful acts of a few guards and interrogators in the now notorious Iraqi prisons. What has been done in Iraq, no matter past, present, or future successes, will be viewed and remembered for the magnified failures in planning and execution. Wake up America; Iraq has become a lost cause.

When will Americans (especially the South and Middle Americans) realize the shame brought onto our country by Bush and his followers? According to polls, only less then half of the country has opened their eyes and decided to vote for change in November. Please tell me: What remains appealing about Bush? Are their still people that support Bush because he is some sort of great leader? All he has done is brought shame to our country and mislead us about the war in Iraq, the economy, education, and his harmful environmental policies. The only leadership Bush exhibits is MIS-leadership.

Do some like Bush because they feel he will stay the course when the direction of the nation seems in doubt? I say "abandon ship!" and let the captain go down with the vessel of his failed policies. When something is broken, you don’t stubbornly stick with the same method like a chicken with its head cut off. You fix it! You go a new course. Forget rallying behind the president; that is completely retarded in the purest sense of the word. Rallying behind this president is the same as rallying behind failure.

What I do not understand is that some absolutely despise individuals in Bush's administration, but not Bush himself. Some scorn the actions of Rumsfeld and demand his resignation. Some cannot stand the stench of Ashcroft's invasive agenda, but still find Bush rosy. Some would like to eliminate the stain of corruption brought by the Cheney camp, whether possibly committing treason in leaking an undercover CIA agent identity, cutting closed-door deals with gas and oil executives, or being linked to the fraudulent Halliburton Corporation, but some how Bush remains tephlon. Some hate everyone but Bush, but they do not realize that the Bush administration is a packaged deal or rather a packaged rip-off. We are stuck with them all if he is reelected. A vote for Bush is a vote for all of these suspects. If this crew gets re-elected -- Earth save us all!

Some may say that this is just another Bush-hater going off. In reality, I do not think there are too many Bush haters out there specifically. They exist, but in far fewer numbers then projected. I just think that there are a vast amount of citizens who keep well informed, who stay updated on current events, who read alternative news sources, who passionately disapprove of the policies and bearing of the Bush administration, and realize that it is essential that our country get back on the right track. The only way to remedy the mistakes and failures of Bush is to show the man the door this November, and have him take the rest of his cronies with him. Please show the man the door!

The attached image is my recent painting entitled "Neo-con Inverse America." Inverse America is a play on the concept in color theory where the colors cyan, black, and yellow used in this rendition of the American flag are the inverse of the familiar red, white, and blue. So much in our current political and Republican-dominated society seems to be the inverse of the American values I remember pretty much taking for granted while growing up. Some of these values include: freedom of speech & debate vs. being labeled unpatriotic for expressing disagreement or descent, freedom of privacy vs. the invasive "Patriot Act," separation of church and state vs. the Bush policy of combined church and state theocracy, due process vs. camp x-ray, and honesty & integrity in leaders vs. corruption, graft, cronyism, and false pretenses found in the current politics. Well maybe honesty and integrity have never existed in political theater, but the rest I think existed at one moment or another in time.

"Neo-conservative Inverse America" represents the jingoism disguised as patriotism found in excess during this far right's term in office (or more specifically a protest against it). Or maybe this should be the new flag of our failed fifty-first state, Iraq. In any case, there is a lot of mending ahead of us. The future of our country may rely on it.

If you have made it this far: thank you for taking the time to read my cathartic discourse. I look forward to your feedback and addition.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tdieci/

May 10, 2004

[skooooo]

3. yawn

just made me want to vote for kerry more. thanks.

[CharlesGroce]

7. keep yawning...

you'll sleep your country away.

[skooooo]

8. got a blanket...?

..don't mind if i do

[Caution]

5. give it up. seriously. Kerry is the Dem nominee.

If you don't vote for him you are simply helping Bush. AS Ariana Huffington so elquently put it, you don't try to renovate when the house is on fire.

I love Mr. Kucinich too, but as soon as the convention is done, he'll be supporting Kerry and so should you.

[CharlesGroce]

9. I don't believe in political metaphors...

Well maybe that's what we need here in this country comrad, maybe GW should win, and we should be outraged, really outraged this time, I mean enough to stop buying things, and take our fucking country back.

I'm sorry to offend anyone, but John Kerry's strategy of agreeing with Bush on the war IS A LOSER'S STRATEGY SINCE IT IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW! No ifs, ands, or buts.

[Carni]

13. Yada yada yada

Get a room with yourself

[shraby]

16. John Kerry's strategy

on the Iraq war was the strategy that Bush adopted AFTER John Kerry said what he would do. Heard it from John first.

[CharlesGroce]

22. and that makes it good?

No.

[Jai4WKC08]

39. Actually, if you'd been listening

You'd have heard it from Wes Clark first. Then from John Kerry. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

As for the original post, immediate withdrawal from Iraq is not a realistic option. And it's damn sure an election loser.

I'm totally baffled by people who take a fringe position, one unsupported by the vast majority of Democrats, and think it's the only position that's true to party ideals. As if the party weren't the majority of people who belong to it and its ideals weren't what the majority believe.

Dennis Kucinich is a good man, but you could fit what he knows about foreign policy into a thimble.

[RummyTheDummy]

25. I'm not convinced there will be a country to "get back" if he gets 4 more

That's the beautiful dilemma isn't it.

Do you vote your heart, and know you're helping a proven failure win another term during which he could get us all killed. Or do you throw caution to the wind and vote for someone that's not particularly inspiring on several different levels?

My vote for Kerry will be a result of my loyalty to the party and a genuine fear Bush believes it's his duty to hasten Jesus' return to earth, or something equally kooky.

I won't slam Nader voters though. They're doing what they think is right. I just hope some in the battleground states truly realize just how important their votes are and think it over long and hard before casting it.

[bigwillq]

6. Kinda of agree about sending more troops

I think we have to now cause there is a lot of resistance even more now than when the "war" was offical.

I do agree that Kerry needs to do more to persuade and energize his party.

[CharlesGroce]

14. Man

I heard ABC say a two weeks ago that the reason so many troops were dying is because the Shiites and Sunnis are attacking each other: TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT.

And what is resistance? What would you do if these fucking undereducated Texas redneck asses were in your house looking at your wife or little sister? I know what I'd do.

Saddam is gone. Now what? Kill all criminals? Kill all insurgents? We wait until all criminals (terrorists) are dead before these people are allowed to speak freely?

Think about it. I hope I'm not deemed a 'terrorist' just for dissenting someday, but with you watching my back maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

[bigwillq]

27. hey I only answered your questions

honestly. I'm sorry if you don't agree with them but if the US's goal was to bring democracy to Iraq something I never agreed with (The US going to war in the first place) then yes I do think we need more troops to fight the resistence if the US is going to accomplish their goals there (although I don't think the US will accomplish their goals there).

[RummyTheDummy]

34. That's the same kind of thinking that.....

sent 58,000 people to their deaths in Vietnam.

[bigwillq]

35. That's why I said I 'kinda' think we need to send more

troops. I'm still debating that option. What options do we have?

Pull out all the way. And we will lose on two issues (Finding WMD is another).

Letting the troops that are there get attacked day in and day out. They need a break send them home and send fresh ones in.

I'm still unsure what we should do. But I was against the Iraq war in the first place but now that we are there we should go through with why we are still there now and that's to make Iraq a democracy, which like I said I think is impossible.

If we go to these countries I think we need to at least try to accomplish why we are there to give it some validity.

[PragMantisT]

10. Welcome to DU Charles

So why don't you run for president?

How do you expect to find someone who lives up to your political platform. It ain't about YOU.

It's about compromise. It's about finding a candidate that you can live with. Sorry Kerry doesn't cater to your every whim. Perhaps he is catering to George Soros's every whim. Maybe not. I know how Soros stands on marijuana decriminalization. Don't know how Kerry stands.

I could live with President Kucinich. But by no means do I agree with everything he stands for. Unfortunately, that is not a workable option.

[CharlesGroce]

18. oh don't be so dismissive....

I didn't say that Kerry should be me (I'm too young), I said Kerry should represent me. Look it up.

You're just avoiding what I said because no logic can justify subjugating these poor people any longer.

[PragMantisT]

28. Yeah let's just leave

Their cities are in shambles. Oh sorry, bye.
Their families have been destroyed. See ya.
Their streets are ruled by thugs. Don't forget to write.

Yeah the criminals and thugs will be dancing in the streets. And the people being tortured will be tortured by someone else. Third thug in as many years.

You can't turn back the clock. We need to fix it as best we can; we made the mess. You want * fixing it? Good luck.

[debsianben]

61. Huh?

That's a bit like saying that the rapist is the ideal person to stick around and provide counseling to the rape victim. The US staying means more deaths on both sides...and there's no evidence for the ridiculous empire-apologist claim that there would be a civil war. That's a phrase no Iraqi has yet so much as uttered, and I note that Sunnis and Shiites are more than willing to join forces to rise up against their American conquerors, Fallujah and Najaf standing as one and all that. The Iraqis are perfectly capable of reconstructing their own country if we let them, especially if we help them out with massive reparations for all of the death and destruction the US inflicted on their country.

[blondeatlast]

62. The Red Cross loves volunteers. Ya wanna help, I

can't think of a better way.

Damn honorable organization that still has the world's respect, too.

[Carni]

11. Oh OK I will definitely write Kucinich in

I would hate to waste my vote on the actual candidate who is running against bush.

[CharlesGroce]

19. oh

no.

[Rowdyboy]

15. Thanks! Those trolling here always help raise our spirits!

Though why you bother is beyond my grasp. Whats the point? You join a Democratic board dedicated to electing a Democratic president just so you can bitch and whine about the Democratic nominee? Why? Are you fond of rejection?

There are tons of right-wing (and one or two left-wing) boards where they just LOVE crapping all over Kerry and the Democratic party and you'd be ADORED, considered a modern-day Einstein! Here, you're just trying to stir shit and we're onto it by now.

But, whatever gets you off....

[AgadorSparticus]

73. no shit what's with all the trolling lately? it's getting thick, isn't it?

enough already. what a pain in the ass. :hurts:

[Only Me]

91. I think THEIR afraid! So they come here and try to stir us up. N/t

[PragMantisT]

17. A good boss always says

I don't care who made the mess; it has to be cleaned up!

We cannot just abandon Iraq and her people to anarchy. It's our fault it's a mess; we owe it to them to fix it as best we can. Imposing an oil cartel oligarchy is *'s way. Anything has to be better than that.

[CharlesGroce]

20. oh really...

we can't just leave, oh anarchy might entail celebration that we left, oh no! Shoot your TV! Shoot it now because you don't make any sense anymore.

[PragMantisT]

24. Shoot my TV

Why would I shoot your only friend

:silly:

[iamjoy]

33. Yes...

I rather agree with the sentiment of Colin Powell's statement, that Iraq was like Pottery Barn, you break it, you buy it.

Of course, technically, I think that's inaccurate because Pottery Barn doesn't make customers pay for something knocked over in the store, but I get the jist of what he is saying.

[no name no slogan]

40. That's like asking the arsonist who torched your house to fireproof it

Just because "we broke it" in Iraq does NOT qualify us for the task of "fixing it". In fact, I'd argue that it immediately disqualifies us from the task.

After all, how many people are demanding that Al-Queda "fix" the World Trade Center or the Pentagon? It's sheer lunacy to think that the Pentagon, an organization whose main purpose is to wage war, should be held responsible to create the peace. It's like trusting a sexual predator to watch after the kids while you're away.

Unfortunately, the US has a long sordid history of trying to impose "democracy" in other countries. We preach the gospel of "democracy" to everyone in the world who will listen, but we are the first to stifle it abroad if it goes against "our will". Our long history in Latin America , the Caribbean and in Asia and Africa should be proof enough of this.

Any attempt by an occupying power (like the US) to impose "democracy" on Iraq is destined to failure and misery. We have never done so successfully anyplace else in the world, and we've been trying ever since this country was founded.

Should we pay to "fix" Iraq? Absolutely. But we should not be the ones to "fix" it.

The ill will and hatred remains in the heart of Iraqis, who know that we funded Saddam throughout the 70s and 80s. They know that Gen. Schwartzkopf withheld access to captured Iraqi weapons when the Shias in the south rose up against Saddam after Desert Storm. They also know that the low-intensity war (aka "no-fly zones") we've waged against their country for the last 13 years has killed over half a million innocent children and countless innocent adults.

We may have forgotten this recent history, but the Iraqis have not.

[CharlesGroce]

23. Good evening

I hope each of you leaves here realizing that the media has prepared you with pro-Kerry statements that make no fucking sense at all, and only serve to perpetuate corporate interests abroad. Though I think that unlikely. See you tomorrow!

[JohnnyFianna1]

26. Media Pro-Kerry? Have you been reading or watching TV lately....

[CharlesGroce]

29. no

I don't read TV really.

And if John Kerry had some problem with the way the media were representing him, then maybe he would come out and say so. The fact that he doesn't only exposes him as being at their mercy.

[blondeatlast]

63. You won't be seeing me... but I'll be on the boards.

:evilgrin:

[iamjoy]

30. Two Words

Supreme Court.

What is happening in Iraq is a no-win situation politically and militarily. If we pull out, we reinforce the image with the terrorists that we cut and run when we get a bloody nose. We also abandon the Iraqis who want us there, who don't want to fall victim to the extremists. If we stay, we reinforce the image that we're imperialistic thugs.

I don't believe you should shape your beliefs around the Democratic party platform. But (and I don't mean this to be snide) should the party shape its platform around your beliefs? If you feel there is another party that suits your beliefs better, then perhaps that is the party for you. I don't mean that in a snide way, either.

You also have the option of trying to change the Democratic party from within. I don't know how you'd go about this, I do know 30 years ago the Republicans didn't have a "pro-life" platform in their party and weren't as beholden to the "Religious Right" Somehow, these Fundamentalists took it over.

Which brings me to my point about the Supreme Court. The next president will appoint at least two, possibly three justices. This court will hear cases on our reproductive rights, our rights to privacy, and our freedom of expression. They will hear cases on separation of church and state. These cases will shape the our legal environment, our civil rights for generations. Do you want the court to be packed with the likes of Scalia, Renquist and Thomas or Stephens, Breyer and Ginsburg?

Our First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Constitutional Amendments are at risk of becoming little more than an empty shell. A vote for anyone but Kerry helps Bush and hurts the nation.

[bigwillq]

32. Well said

I agree with all your points. Good job.

[stopbush]

31. Rent the movie "Gallipolli" - it seems to reflect your recommended

course of action.

My votes for president:

McGovern
Carter
John Anderson (Wasted vote. I helped Reagan win. I won't do that again)
Mondale
Dukakis
Clinton
Clinton
Gore

2004 - Kerry

[sfwriter]

36. I'll bet you either Bush or Kerry wins...

It will be one of those two. I'll bet you anything. There are no other choices who have proven they have any leadership potential or the support of large numbers of Americans. So I'm pretty sure it will be one of those two.

If you don't care which, then you should probably just sit this one out.

If getting out of Iraq trumps ALL OTHER ISSUES, then you should build a Kucinich write in campaign.

If you hate Kerry's position re: Iraq so much that's you'd rather run him down and see Bush win, then you are just sick.

I did my campaigning for a different candidate back during the primary. My guy lost. So did my second and third choices. Now that it is between these two I make my choice based on that.

If Lieberman had won, I'd be sitting this one out as well. As it is, I'm voting for Kerry because unlike Bush his positions on a whole range of issues are far closer to mine.

[workforpower]

37. Ha! Ha! Kucinich?

He couldnt organize 2 car funeral. I remember how he destroyed Cleveland. What a loser.

[eridani]

38. Then why did Cleveland give him an award for it in 1998?

One of the chief advocates of getting rid of Muny Light presented it to him too.

[LWolf]

49. What an ignorant statement.

Way to make contacts and influence voters! If that is how you "work for power," I don't expect to see you shining any light on anthing any time soon.

[zulchzulu]

41. Dear Single Issue Voter,

Get a clue. If you're up on the recent state of events, perhaps you can tell me how many delegates Kucinich has.

Actually, Kucinich's plan for Iraq is nearly identical to Kerry's.

Perhaps it's time to do some homework.

[hippywife]

76. Do your own homework

Kerry stated on NPR some months back that while he supports international involvement, he would not hand over the "security" portion of Iraq over to the UN. He has stated more recently that he is for sending 40,000 more troups.

Totally different from Kucinich's stance on Iraq. UN in US out...across the board with the exception of paying for the devastation we have caused there.

Write him off if you will but with each passing day, Kucinich makes more sense and there is more reason to support him all the way to the convention.

Even if we all end up having to hold our noses in November and vote Kerry, it isn't because he is so wonderful, it's because the current administration is so awful. Not much of a glowing recommendation.

[zulchzulu]

79. Insert "Yawn" here

I always find it hilarious that people say "UN in, US out"... who the hell do you think most of the UN troops are going to be anyway?

US troops! OK, they might have blue hats on possibly, but they will mostly be from the US.

This kind of simplistic, cartoon-world lunacy is as insipid as listening to Bushies saying our troops are dying for our "freedom".

Yes, like Kerry says and his solution for Iraq indicates, there will be a lot more troops from other countries to help take the burden off the American troops.

As for holding your nose and voting for Kerry in November, so be it. He is the candidate. The chance that Kucinich will be running against Bush in November are about as realistic as John Goodman winning the Miss America contest this year.

[ACK]

42. Voting for Kerry and there are no good options left in Iraq

Period.

Even Kucinch is talking about what many here have painted as the fantasy of internationalizing the effort instead of a cut and run policy.

But I got a lot of reasons to vote for Kerry besides ABB.

This is not discounting many here that feel Kerry needs to be more left of center to differentiate himself from Bush.

Kerry is not as liberal as Kuicinch or Nader that I will give you.

However, Kerry is more liberal than Clinton, Lieberbush, or the way the DLC ran Gore the last time.

After all, the idea of changing NAFTA has entered from the fringe of political discussion into the national debate. He has said he will not back the FTAA.

The idea of National Healthcare has entered back into the National debate in a way Gore would not approach last time.

We are now talking about a program of National Service where kids can get money for college WITHOUT having to carry a gun.

Kerry will not take a unilateral piss on our allies in his approach to foreign relations.

He will protect a woman's right to choose.

He has pledged to lift the gag order Bush enacted on family clinics.

This is a guy that worked to open shelters for rape victims in Boston for goodness sakes.

He is the first national candidate to not only talk about cleaner fuels and reducing our dependence on foreign oil but to actually talk about loosing ourselves from the "demon oil."

He has a 90% lifetime record of voting with the AFL/CIO and stands beside the base of organized labor. He does not demonize workers and their unions.

This is a man who can change his mind and makes an informed decision.

Yeah, naysayers I am voting for Kerry.
_

[LonghornJack]

46. You Got That Right!

It's gotta be Kerry.

I'm tired of having an incompetent, incurious, right-wing idealogue in the White House. Kerry will be a huge improvement over Bush, for all the reasons that ACK has pointed out, and much more.

For one thing, Kerry will get the U.S. a fresh start with our allies, especially those in the Middle East. We really need a multi-nation approach to resolving Iraq. Having Islamic countries on the team would really help. All the other options are bad: we can't pull out and let the country descend into civil war or allow the religious fanatics to set up another theocracy like Iran.

PLEASE vote for Kerry!

We got to get Bush and the right-wing nuts out of the White House!

[kymar57]

83. Amen ACK

Iraq looms large,but is not the only issue before us:yourock:

[troublemaker]

43. How democracy works

re: "Well I'll never know, because I don't vote for representatives that demand that I shape my beliefs around their platform in order to 'win'. Last I heard, that ain't how democracy is supposed to work."

That's just silly unless we have 250 million people on the ballot. Voting for a candidate that disagrees with you is not in itself a violation of any sensible principles.

If I feel we need to leave Iraq immediately it doesn't violate my principles to vote for Kerry. I would violate my principles if I became president and did what Kerry thinks instead of what my principles dictate.

I'm not God. I didn't pick the candidates. A vote isn't a religious observance or an expression of ego. It's a practical action done for a purpose. For a vote to conform to a person's principles that vote should be the best choice to move the world closer to those principles. 90% of the time a vote cast for the person who most shares your principles is not the best expression of those principles, unless voting is indeed just a personal, spiritual or egoistically expressive act.

The only possible effect of voting for anyone other than Kerry or Bush in 2004 is registering an opinion. Registering that one protest vote might be the best practical way to improve the world. It might not. But it's a practical question. (Unless one has a principled view that he must vote for the person most similar to his own views, in which case the principles involved are about a theory of voting, rather than about the issues themselves)

A vote for anyone other than Kerry is, in practice, a vote to make the war even more cruel and prolonged than it would be under Kerry. Even if someone envisions his choice in 2004 as Mussolini vs. Hitler it's still an easy choice. (Mussolini, BTW)

That's exactly how democracy IS supposed to work. It's about coalitions and factions. Nobody gets his way. Never. It's not about good and bad, but rather about better and worse.

[davhill]

44. The War Party has given us two candidates

We know that one of them has no decency or common sense. Let us hope that Kerry, what ever statements he has made to appease the pro war element will eventually reveal the qualities necessary to lead this nation.

[union_maid]

45. I don't think he can really say what he'll do

Any president who replaces Bush is inheriting a mess of unprecendented proportions. There is no way I believe that Kerry will simply send more troops into a quagmire with no end in sight, but his strategy for exit in this rapidly changing situation would necessarily be finalized during the time between the election and the inauguration and would probably undergo changes even during that period. For now, he can't say what Bush will do in the interim that might change things, nor can he respond to a situation on the ground that might be totally different seven months from now. Also, Kerry is the one, single Amercian who doesn't have the luxury of saying exactly what he'd do in the president's place, because he is, in fact, the only American who might actually replace Bush in a few months. He has the job of differentiating himself from Bush without giving the Iraqi resistance or terrorist organizations clear reason to help to oust Bush by stepping up activity against American troops or civilian targets.

There is no way for rational people to believe that Kerry would not be an improvement over this president, nor that his administration wouldn't be a thousand times more intelligent and able than this one, with its combination of deadliness, arrogance and ineptitude.

[hippiegranny]

81. brava, union_maid

this post should have its own thread.

[flpoljunkie]

47. Kucinich will not be on the ballot in November. So...

will you vote for Nader or Bush--knowing that a vote for Nader is indeed, a vote for Bush.

[LWolf]

48. I don't.

I don't agree with John Kerry on many issues. I am disappointed with him, to say the least, especially as we will be stuck with him for 8 years.

But I'm voting for him. I will do my part to evict the current misadministration.

As a strong supporter of Dennis Kucinich and his candidacy, I'll say that Dennis, too, will support John Kerry after the convention. The idea is to bring the issues of importance to americans to the convention, and to help shape the platform and the direction of the party. Dennis has my full, enthusiastic support in that effort.

If America were more aware and more compassionate, Dennis would be the candidate. America is not evolved enough for Dennis. I'm grateful that he continues to work for us in whatever role we allow him to. Since it looks like Kerry will be the man, the most positive, constructive good we can do for our party, for our country, and for the planet is to work for change from a place of partnership during his campaign and administration.

[Kanary]

57. Just curious, LWolf....

Do you ever get tired of explaining the same things over and over and over and over?

I know that I do.

You seem to have more patience with all this constant attacking of anyone who isn't totally enamored of Kery than I have.

Maybe it's because *my* issue, that of survival (being one who depends on the so-called safety net) is NEVEr brough tup. It's become a total and complete NON ISSUE. Obviously, Dems no longer have much concern for those of us who are on the edge.

So, since it's not important to Kerry or his supporters, I have a bit of a hard time finding much energy for supporting Kerry.

Anyway, just wondering if you ever get as tired as I do of the same old complaints and lack of understanding.

Kanary

[LWolf]

59. Yes.

I do. When I feel that impatience rising, most of the time, I remember that if we each patiently keep putting one step ahead of the other, chipping away at the mountain ahead of us, it will eventually come down. Not when we would like it to. Not in time to help many. If I stop to ponder that, the frustration can bring the whole process to a halt. So I don't, most of the time.

Then again, sometimes I lose it and snap back. The lesson there is that I always regret it in the long run; it doesn't accomplish anything.

I have not forgotten the issue of survival; I've walked that razor-edge my whole life. I've been fortunate in some opportunities that have come my way. I've also been homeless. More than once. I've been hungry. More than once. And I've been unable to get medical care for loved ones. My long years of working 2 jobs, supporting and raising kids, and putting myself through school paid off. I don't have the standard of living of many of my peers, who would think my shabby little cottage a horror. But I have a level of security that was unknown growing up and as a young adult. I think I'm a small minority; I don't forget where I came from, or what life is like there. Most don't make it to a place of relative security. Even with that, I'm living from paycheck to paycheck. And if anything ever interferes with that paycheck, I have nothing and noone to fall back on. It's all up to me.

[Kanary]

60. I admire you your patience.

I'm tired of being attacked by "Dems". I studiously avoid reich wingers IRL, so I probably don't need to be hre and come across the same stuff. It would be nice to find a comfortable haven from the ugliness. We all need some of that.

I'm glad to know you can understand at least some of my dilemma. You've been through a lot. I seriously doubt that I'll make it very much longer. No matter who "wins". The signs are very clear. And, it really hurts to know that it just doesn't matter very much to very many. Hurts deeply.

I guess I need to get away from people, and go look at spring wildflowers.

Kanary

[LWolf]

64. That is how I do it.

I work all week long. Long, long hours. This year, about 12 hours a day, and too tired to keep up with life when I get home. On Saturday mornings I head for the hills. Open space, no people, and whatever is growing, blooming, and sharing space with me on that day. This morning, the hills are already gold with grass gone dry. There are desert poppies still blooming; the rest are all done. The ravens, quail, doves, hummers, hawks, and larks were out and about. A coyote sat and watched me go by from about 30 yards away. I spend as long as I need to, drinking in the serenity and the balance, before coming home to the rest of life.

I will spend some time sending blessings your way when I sit in the serenity of the hills, Kanary.

[Khephra]

51. I'm voting for Kerry for primarily one reason -- Supreme Court Judges

They have more of an effect on society than the President, these days. But am I happy with his campaign? Not in the least. It's very lackluster. His approach on Iraq also smells of disaster to me too.

But the Judges, man, see...it's all about the Judges.

[iamjoy]

52. I Am Glad I Am Not The Only One Who Sees This

Read my earlier post.

It amazes me that more people don't see this.

[Khephra]

87. There's being critical of a candidate and then there's smearing a

candidate. I think it's been established that well meaning critical comments are ok towards Kerry, and there are aspects of his campaign that are pretty fair game. You just gotta watch the hating. ;-)

I really think Kerry's campaign needs to be hiring more people from the Dean, Clark and Kucinich campaigns. The grassroots has cooled off with this early primary season.

Gods, I hate this squished primary season. We could still be having 9 candidates attacking Bush during these "torturegate" days. and they'd all be getting news coverage.

(I vote for the worst mistake of the campaign season: the shortening of the campaign season for the Democrats.)

[VOX]

53. Doing what's right can be tough, and it doesn't always make us feel good.

The LCD here is that, if you don't vote for Kerry, you are helping *. That's just a simple mathematical fact.

I'll be among the first to say that Kerry isn't perfect, but he's a damn sight better that the gangster cabal in charge now, who are utterly marinated in blood, oil and big money.

Why not approach it this way -- * and comrades have made a royal mess of things, so why not let the other **viable** candidate take a shot at piloting the ship of state?

You know about the judges, both circuit and supreme --lifetime appointments. You know about the intrusion of fundamentalist religion into all aspects of our daily lives. You know about what's happening to women's rights. You know about what's already happened to our individual freedoms in the last 3 1/2 years.

Are you going to sit idly by and allow this to go on for another four years? Voting isn't therapy -- it doesn't always make you feel good. But considering what's at stake come November, I'll be waiting at the polls when they open the bolt in the door, to gladly and gratefully cast my vote for John Kerry, the **Democratic** nominee for president.

[MaggieSwanson]

55. A breath of fresh air

I'm glad I checked back in to this forum.
Thanks for the post, CharlesGroce, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Kadie]

56. There is only one problem with Kucinich for President

It ain't going to happen! If Kucinich had a chance, he would have picked up a lot more support before now. He isn't going to be president. So if you want to go ahead and vote for him that is your business. However,

I will do my part to make sure bushie isn't elected in November and that means a vote for John Kerry. Do I agree with everything Kerry stands for? Of course not. I have never seen a candidate that I do totally agree with.

About the Iraq policy. Yes, more than anything I would like to see our soldiers come home. I want them to be safe. But, is bringing the soldiers home really going to make them and us safe? If we just pack up and leave now, what kind of breeding ground for future terrorism are we leaving behind. We owe the Iraqi people more than this current administration ever will admit. We have destroyed their homeland. Yes, we got rid of Saddam, but what have we left them but complete hatred for us. If we just leave, there will be those planning their revenge. We need to make it right. I can't even begin to think where to start to get us out of this mess other than getting someone other than bushie into office. It is going to take a lot of physical work, and a lot of communication to make up for what we have done. If we can ever make up for what we have done.

We as Americans can send a strong message to the Iraqi people, to the entire world. We can make sure bushie and his gang are not elected in November. Make the statement that we do not agree with what he has done. Maybe the next guy, Kerry, won't have all the best and correct answers, but we know without a doubt that bushie will just cause more damage. Maybe, just maybe, having someone new in the White House will make a huge statement to those fighting us now, and then maybe we can try to work ourselves out of this mess.

Just my opinion.

[sadiesworld]

58. I don't believe this will be a proud moment for you in retrospect.

[CharlesGroce]

66. well I don't do things...

for how you think I will look in retrospect, I do things because I have weighed the alternatives and chosen a path.

[Gore1FL]

69. doesn't retrospect fit in there?

If you weigh alternatives, doesn't how you'll feel later carry any weight?

[sangh0]

82. Obviously not

I guess in Groce's world, people weigh alternatives because they give a damn how it will turn out

[MilDem]

65. That's your choice and I respect that

But I really do feel that John Kerry is a good man, a great Senator and more than qualified to be the President of the United States. Do I agree on him on every issue? No, but if I only voted based on total agreement, I'd have to write myself in every time.

Until there is a multi-party system in place, votes will almost always be a compromise. But my vote for John Kerry is not just a ABB vote, it is a vote for a man I think will be a great leader.

[Gore1FL]

67. Specifically

When did he call for more troops to SUBJUGATE the enemy?

I think it is prudent to not abandon Iraq. I also believe it is prudent to get the world community involved. That is what he is suggesting.

Unfortunately, the dumb-assed Bush policies have destabilized a region vital to US security.

There are a lot of dumb-assed bush policies that are going to have to be cleaned up. Many are going to have to be cleaned up in ways that I am not entirely fond of.

Kerry didn't make any of these messes-- but he has the mop broom and dust pan. No other candidate with a legitimate chance of winning does.

So feel free to not vote for Kerry. It is your right, afterall, but sqwuandering a vote is nothing I would brag about or try to convert people over.

That being said, it would appear that you strongly disagree with the man you are casting your vote for. Kucinich said he will endorse Kerry after the nomination process. If you atre not voting for Kerry over one issue, how can you vote for Kucinich when you clearly disagree with his voting suggestions?

[Paradise]

68. The situation in Iraq is changing, drastically, every day,

and John Kerry will do what's best and correct, at the time! I trust his intelligence and experience, therefore his methods and motives. :hi:

[mourningdove92]

70. Uhhhh, now let me think. Just what are my choices?

Vote for Bush? uh, no. Well, not just no, but Hell no. Not in this lifetime or any other lifetime. He sucked as govenor of my state and sucks even worse as pRresident.

Vote for Nader? Uh, might as well vote for Bush. See response number one.

Stay home and pout and not vote at all.....the bushies would like that. Not an option.

Guess that leaves only one reasonable choice for a reasonable person who really, really, really wants Bush outta here.

VOTE KERRY!!!



:kick:

[kentwood]

72. ya got that right...

a little history: i made the mistake of voting for nader in 2000 and helped "elect" gwb. i know, i know - ultimately the supreme court "elected" bush, but stick with me, ok? i sure as hell didn't like bush, but gore pissed me off by pretending he was not who he was. so i protested with a vote for ralph - which i regret. nothing against nader - i admire the man, but if the 2000 election showed us anything it was that every vote counts unless you live in florida. but that's another issue. ok - we have a choice: bush or kerry. period. that may not be the way you want it, but that's the way it is. if you do not vote for kerry, you are voting for bush.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. Sorry, not going to bite. n/t

[GOPBasher]

75. Good idea.

That's a really good idea. After Bush wins, I'll write you a letter thanking you for giving my daughter a few trillion dollars more to pay on the national debt, dirty air to breath, dirty water to drink, a crappy education, and total breakdown of the separation of church and state, so when she walks through thick smog to get to her broken down school, she'll learn that the universe is 6000 years old and God only put all the other "evidence" that it's older to test our faith.

[mountainvue]

89. Don't forget the draft.

[Meshuga]

77. Don't have to agree 100% with Kerry to vote for him...

You don't have to agree 100% with a candidate to vote for him/her. You don't have to re-shape your beliefs to vote for a candidate either.

I personally don't know ANY candidate that I agree 100% with.

The way democracy is supposed to work is for a person to use his/her own criterias when choosing a candidate. Whether it's personal belief or even who is the lesser of two evils it doesn't really matter because the person is still making a choice.

I'm glad I like John Kerry, and in my opinion, I will not have to choose the lesser of two evils this time. I'm going to choose a candidate I actually like.

Lucky me! :-)

[Claire Beth]

78. a vote for ANYONE other than John Kerry = same as a bush vote (n/t)

[info being]

80. I support Kucinich fully, and I'll vote for Kerry

He'll be the only viable choice we have and we must get practical.

[MISSDem]

84. Thank you Scooooo - me too

people who write essays that long don't have enough to keep them busy. And if it takes you that long to say what you think fergitaboutit. I'll vote for JFK cause he is the candidate. Need more reasons?

[amazona]

85. I have to agree w. Kerry on the troops

We broke it, we bought it. We can't just leave Iraq to the tender mercies of the religious hysterics, who will then swoop down and kill "ordinary people like me," you know, like women who are interested in getting an education, middle-aged folks who like a gasp alcoholic beverage with dinner, and so on. I just don't think it is fair to crush a secular government which provided education and freedom for women and to allow it to be replaced by a bunch of religious hysterics.

If someone invaded the U.S. and then left the Assemblies of God in charge, people like you and me would be dead. And this is the situation we have in Iraq in my humble view.

With Kerry in charge, there is hope of getting some UN involvement and working through a compromise that won't lead to genocide of a whole middle-class culture. If we just pull out today and say, oh well, our bad, maybe Osama bin Laden will be happy but the "people like me" will be gunned down in the streets.

It is an ugly situation and I want the war to end. I protested it, I didn't support it, but I lost and we've got to deal with realities here.

Are we ready to give asylum to huge numbers of Iraqis as we did with the South Vietnamese? Or are we just going to say, too bad, you're Arabs, get along with your fellow Arabs and die.

A lot of Iraq was secular. There is nothing natural about allowing the religious hysterics to take over. It is totally unfair to lots of people if we just throw up our hands in mid-air.

I may be wrong but this is my thinking...

I would have voted for Kucinich if he had been the candidate, but he isn't, and there are good aspects to the choice of Kerry. I think for now I prefer to focus on the positive.

[Exgeneral]

86. As the demonic forces sprint from the crack in the earth

opened by the BFEE they've left me no choice.

I'm voting for John Kerry, because he's sort of anti-demonic. If only he were sort of anti-war.
I just wish he'd wake up.

[mountainvue]

90. Peace candidates don't win.

He can't afford to be anti-war right now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

88. Wait til you see how democracy works if Bush gets it again

[Trajan]

92. You misrepresent Kerry's position ...

We call this a Strawman Fallacy, dont we ? ...

Kerry is imperfect, indeed: but he is no Bush ...

The human condition is complex, and sometimes includes war ...

Justified or not: it is there ...

Kerry is calling for the RE-INTERNATIONALIZATION of the Iraq debacle, for the development of a WORLD consensus, with a WORLD resolution that is favorable to the Iraqis as a whole as well as their neighbors ...

This is cheap bluster ... a strawman, and an argumentum ad ignorantiam to boot

[lojasmo]

93. I'll vote for him

As I said I would, but I think his positions, and his voting record over the past couple of years are middling milquetoast BS. I feel like he's done nothing but capiutlate to the right in order to remail electable.

God damn politics.