All of the fuss over the recollections of Hillary make me wonder. What were you doing in 1996?

[bigtree]

Do you remember the details of events in 1996 with precision? I can't. I can hope to put together an accurate version of events, places, circumstances, but these blur together and are dominated by other more important events and happenings at the time, and by the things which have happened in-between. Can Hillary Clinton, Obama, or anyone else, be expected to recall events accurately, especially if all they are relying on is their own point of reference?

It's one thing to put events together based on reports, accounts, etc. But, off-the-cuff responses and recollections are subject to our own taxed memories. If we want an accurate representation of events which happened in the past, we usually need other references to confirm our own recollections. It's only in the ridiculous atmosphere of a political campaign do these jumbled memories get labeled as outright lies.

Anywhere else, folks would allow room for mistakes. In this campaign, with these candidates challenged to recall every instance of their past in detail, there should be room allowed for differences in what they recall and the reasonable, predictable difficulty in putting events recalled from the past in the proper order and perspective.

If you recall something differently than the evidence available would confirm, would you consider yourself a liar? I don't, and I don't believe our candidates should be raked over the coals for differences in some innocuous recollections of events in the past which are trivial and not integral to anything except for someone's political narrative.

[PM7nj]

1. I remember NOT getting shot at.

[zonkers]

4. Ha!

[Political Heretic]

5. *snort*

[polpilot]

36. I remember not being shot at by snipers. I do remember this.

[mythyc]

74. For this jolly good rejoinder I unfurl ...

the rarely seen squirrel touché:

[Kber]

167. Maybe you are blocking?

Could have been a tramatic experience.

And can you prove you Weren't shot at? Didn't think so.

:sarcasm:

[Bonobo]

2. I like this new approach. I call it the "Rashamon Theory"!

[tekisui]

43. Great book, great movie.

They should stick with this one.

[Pisces]

3. I would remember someone firing a gun at me, or landing in evasive maneuvers

[bigtree]

6. Do you accept that Obama forgot to mention details of his house purchase

and that he's just now remembering that he did a walk through with Rezko?

[KAZ]

31. That's 3 times in this thread that you've brought up Rezko while..

.. talking about a life or death situation, and the recollection thereof. I've backed you on several things, but I guess I'm done with that.

[bigtree]

60. Even Obama admitted he saw 'red flags' at the time of the purchase.

You'd think he'd recall every detail, like a walk through of the property with Rezco, instead of his earlier recollection of a 'passing reference' to the property from Rezco.

[KAZ]

73. You're right, but the basis of your OP was about something far more serious.

[bigtree]

79. It was an event in the life of the First Lady. You know what order of importance it was for her?

Really?

[KAZ]

95. I think I would. And yes It was VERY IMPORTANT! You'd never..

.. see Laura shit-for-brains doing that. That's why I liked Hillary so much. But she's embellishing so much now that she's ruining the Clinton brand name. Now I'm going to have to hear about past presidential polls that has Bill barely above Nixon. It's not worth it.

[bigtree]

97. I'm glad we have you to speak for Hillary Clinton

The 'embellishment' is coming from her critics as they attempt to portray the trip of the First Lady of the United States into a combat zone as risk-free and void of the dangers she described.

[KAZ]

102. I don't speak for Hill, just me. But hey Bigtree, you're still one of my..

.. favorite posters. Sorry I got mad at you up-thread.

[bigbrother05]

142. Landing under sniper fire in a war zone with your daughter?

Yeah, totally forgettable like the rental car that was 1/4 tank low.

Bringing peace to Ireland, or was it a hair appointment that day?

Said I'm opposed NAFTA, or did I tell them medium RARE?

Guess after 35 years of preparing to be President, events just start to run together.

[bigtree]

159. details. Whether you wan to a=dmit it or not, memories fade with time

and this was 11 years ago

[mythyc]

82. you're so cute with your red herrings

[bigtree]

86. what could be more of a 'red herring' than attacking someone's memory of events in the past

as a lie?

[mythyc]

134. you've already demonstrated in every post in this thread & on this topic that logic doesn't apply

in an argument with you, so all that's left to say is

worship the pink elephant:

[bigtree]

158. more ridicule?

cute.

[karynnj]

165. He never said he didn't

He never gave a full list of each and every contact with Rezko.

Not to mention that was OMITTING something, not a completely fantastical story.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. '96? Dearth of snipers where I lived. I went the whole year without being under fire, if you can

believe that.

[Mezzo]

163. I hardly can...what with all that PEACE AND PROSPERITY. nt

[Yael]

8. I would recall the difference between dodging sniper bullets

and listening to an 8 year old girl read a poem while on a trip to Bosnia.

[bigtree]

13. Did Obama lie about the amount of money Rezco raised for him

. . . or was it just a mistake that he understated the amount by $150,000?

[mythyc]

84. oh shucks, twice for good measure

[bigtree]

94. the OP was about how we remember events. Just because folks have made Clinton their subject

doesn't restrict the discussion to her own memory of past events. Obama's is fair game, as well.

[Quakerfriend]

9. I would sure as heck remember the time of day, date ,year

if gunfire was going off around me!

[panader0]

10. The nineties I remember OK

It's the sixties and seventies that are a little dim.

[rainbow4321]

11. Well if someone had been shooting at me

...I'd have the day and time burned into my memory..but I sure as hell wouldn't be fabricating such a story if I knew there were people with me at that date and time who could go public and say "WTF are you talking about, I was there, there were NO snipers".

Then there is the small fact that if what I was doing that day was being covered by international press with news cameras recording my every move (forever to be in some news organizations' film/picture archive), I think I'd pretty much rule out making up any fake scenario that could easily be called a lie and expect to get away with it.

[cliffordu]

12. The last time a sniper shot at me was

June 15th, 1970, Camp Viking, just north of Danang, South Viet Nam. It was about 3:30 in the afternoon and we were walking back to the flight line from a meeting with the XO about pot use on the base.

We all heard the round go just over our heads, followed by the pop. It was a sunny day with a pretty good wind, which is why the son of a bitch missed. I had meat loaf for dinner that night, and could barely get the fork into my mouth.

Some shit you just don't forget.

[Yael]

27. There ya have it

[bigtree]

30. yet, others at the site may have different recollections about the facts surrounding the incident

. . . with all due respect to your own memories. And other 'evidence' may well offer, yet another perspective. That's just life. We see things from our own perspective.

[cliffordu]

44. Well, not so fast, bigtree....

I don't remember when the last cable bill arrived,

But I can tell you all about the first time I got drunk, the first time I saw a woman naked, the first dead body I saw and the day I got married.

A nice well to do woman on a looksee to one of the most secure areas of that entire theater would remember every shard of every detail of those moments. The plane ride alone was probably breathtaking.

No one shot at her. I'd bet my life on it.

And you don't get to call me a liar about anything I write here. Particularly after using photoshopped "action photos" in previous posts.

:hi:

[bigtree]

50. Tell your lie about the photo to the AP. Yahoo published a collection last month on their news page

of photos, complete with the caption I provided and the attribution of the photographer. You come on here trying to accuse Clinton of lying, yet promote your smear of the AP photo as fact. That isn't just a faulty recollection, it's just outright bullshit.

[cliffordu]

68. Insert photo of....

WHAAAAMBULANCE right here.

:hurts:

:nopity:

[bigtree]

117. juvenile taunting does not prove you claim that the AP photo in their article was 'doctored'

It's like a junior high school cafeteria in here.

[rodeodance]

125. Rovian tactic of inserting a smear. He would be so proud

[Catherina]

69. Thank you for your service and laying it out like that

I'd bet my life on it too.

:patriot:

[bigtree]

76. you'd bet your life that the AP used a doctored photo in their article?

here's the cache of the article from March 8.

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Then+first+lady+Hillary+Rodham+Clinton+greets+U.S.+soldiers+as+she+arrives+at+Bedrock+Camp%2C+an+outpost+of+the+U.S.+IFOR+contingent%2C+near+Tuzla%2C+in+this+March+25%2C+1996.&fr=slv5-ab-&u=article.wn.com/link/WNAT2ED9A76037717B775BF4FF02EBB5ACD6%3Fsource%3Dtemplategenerator%26template%3Dworldphotos/relatedarticle.txt&w=then+first+lady+hillary+rodham+clinton+greets+u.s.+soldiers+soldier+she+arrives+arrive+arrived+bedrock+camp+outpost+u.s.+ifor+contingent+near+tuzla+march+25+1996&d=HO5YwPH_QdvF&icp=1&.intl=us

[cliffordu]

85. And yet, here's the discaimer on the page:

"Yahoo! is not affiliated with the authors of this page or responsible for its content."


:puke:
:hi:

Please re-read my post. I offered up my bet as to whether she'd been shot at.

NOT that poorly Photoshopped picture.

[bigtree]

92. It's an AP article. What a stupid point.

[Catherina]

89. Bad. Very bad reading comprehension problems Bigtree

What was discussed:

"No one shot at her. I'd bet my life on it."

You're the only one talking about a photo. PLEASE TRY TO FOLLOW THE CONVERSATION.

[bigtree]

93. go tend your thread. I think your effort is despicable and sad.

[Catherina]

108. Try not spinning next time

[cliffordu]

120. LOL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[alcibiades_mystery]

168. bigtree reads perfectly well

he or she just pretends not to understand when it suits his or her arguments.

[crispini]

143. Is there a photo at that link?

I don't see it. I'm gathering I missed something about a photo?

[cliffordu]

78. You are quite welcome, Catherina

:toast:



:patriot:

[bigtree]

80. It's an unsupported smear of the AP, who published the photo in their article. Good luck with that.

[Adams Wulff]

140. Please tell me that wasn't in the same day!

But I can tell you all about the first time I got drunk, the first time I saw a woman naked, the first dead body I saw and the day I got married.

But it would make one hell of a story!

[cliffordu]

174. Well, not on the same day, but I will say

that my honeymoon RAWKED!!!!!

:headbang:

:rofl:

[ecstatic]

131. Amazing! Are you trying to swiftboat a Vietnam veteran?

Unbelievable!

[mythyc]

132. and #125 calls that veteran Rovian no less . . . .

they're coming up gang busters in dis place....

[bigtree]

153. don't be stupid

[WolverineDG]

57. Thank you for your service

:patriot:

dg

[cliffordu]

70. Anytime.

I love this country.

:toast:
:patriot:

[bigtree]

98. But you're smear of the AP photo without proof represents the worst of politics

not something to wrap our flag around

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Everybody Knew Clinton Would Beat Dole

The only surprise was Clinton winning Florida...

[dchill]

15. Oh yeah, you really got us with that one.

Sure, we've all lied about being shot at at one time or another - but we're not running for President, so it's a false comparison. Now I feel really bad.

[bigtree]

I don't see where Clinton says she was shot at. She ducked and ran for cover because of reports

. . . of sniper fire. Evasive procedures on the tarmac. That's what I got from what she said.

But, then again, I don't have any motive or any ambition to label her a liar for the difference.

[dchill]

23. "I remember landing under sniper fire..."

is the quote. You "don't see where Clinton says she was shot at" because that's not what you want to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It6JN7ALF7Y

[bigtree]

25. How do you know there weren't reports of sniper fire surrounding the landing?

That would have prompted the evasive procedures Clinton and her speechwriter described.

[dchill]

34. I don't - but she didn't say "reports" - did she?

YOU are now conflating.

[bigtree]

40. well, how else COULD she have known what the risks were on the ground?

Do you really suppose she WASN"T informed?

[dchill]

130. Who said she knew anything?

No facts are necessary to dissemble.

[Catherina]

103. "She ducked and ran for cover because of reports" DEBUNKED

Hillary Clinton and her party were greeted on the tarmac by smiling U.S. and Bosnian officials. An eight-year-old Moslem girl, Emina Bicakcic, read a poem in English. An Associated Press photograph of the greeting ceremony, shows a smiling Clinton bending down to receive a kiss.



"There is peace now," Emina told Clinton, according to Pomfret's report in the Washington Post the following day, "because Mr. Clinton signed it. All this peace. I love it."

http://www.hyerstandard.com/2008/03/hillary-clinton-gets-caught-up-in-her.html

As for a lack of a ceremony at the air base, Atkisson reported Clinton was greeted by the acting President of Bosnia and “an eight-year-old Bosnian girl who says she can't remember a time before the war and by a class of seventh-graders who have been pen pals with the children of US troops.”

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2008/03/18/hillary-shot-96-no-media-mention-bosnia-sniper-fire

[bigtree]

111. you didn't include her landings at Camp Alicia and Camp Bedrock

also on that agenda that you posted a fraction of.

[Catherina]

133. This is really tiresome. Once again NO C17 landed at those camps!

Did Hillary say she landed in a C17? YES! And then ran from that C17 to the vehicles, ducking sniper fire? YES!



So what's with these meaningless distractions about Camp Alicia and Camp Bedrock? She took helicopters there and neither of those camps have landing strips for C17s. And they were 15 minute helicopter rides to places that had no welcoming ceremonies, something she specifically mentioned in her lie.

HRC lied and threw in extra details to pump it up and tripped up. Can't you just face it?

Additionally Camp Bedrock is on top of a fucking hill overlooking a valley, with a "commanding view" of the entire valley.



Camp Alicia was so safe Cheryl Crow and Sinbad entertained 500 soldiers and Clinton walked around with Chelsea laughing and smiling and posing for photos.



They went on a one hour walking tour at Camp Alicia for crying out loud. With no flak jackets or helmets.

There were NO snipers either at Tuzla, Alicia or Bedrock unless they were flying around in the helicopters of Hillary's fevered imagination.

Once again it's Hillary's words against everyone else and their lying eyes.

8 more years of this? No thank you.

[bigtree]

155. you weren't there, yet you act as if you have authority on what occurred and what she was told

Calling this a lie is ridiculous.

[dchill]

172. So you WERE there?

Seen the news lately? "Calling this a lie is ridiculous." Ridiculous=completely accurate.

[dchill]

173. Somebody who WAS there...

Sharyl Attkisson - Not The Safest Trip, But No Sniper Fire

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/03/24/couricandco/entry3962828.shtml

[quakerboy]

16. I remember damn clear

the color of a truck that drove by with a guy aiming a rifle over the side at me back in 96, when I was working on a street repaving project at 6:38 am. I can tell you which street corner i happened to be nearest to. I can give you a pretty good educated guess as to what caliber that rifle was. I can tell you exactly what I said to the foreman 12 minutes later when he showed up.

If someone was able to prove me wrong, I would damn well have to rethink my general reliance on my memories as pertain to my qualifications to discuss related "experience". That good enough?

On edit, I don't happen to recall how much I paid to repair my car a few months later after a minor fenderbender. strange how that slips the mind easier. I guess it was the NO GUN POINTED AT ME part.

[Catherina]

77. ! Word n/t

[TheZug]

17. You're right, I always misremember things in a politically expedient manner.

[bigtree]

24. Obama: I didn't know about Rezko problems. (he must have 'misremembered')

Rezmar rehabbed 30 buildings. A third of those were in the Illinois Senate district Obama represented between 1997 and 2004. Many of the buildings fell into disrepair and financial straits while Obama was state senator, prompting the city to repeatedly sue over problems including no heat.

Obama, a friend of Rezko for 17 years, said he often got complaints as a state senator about housing problems. But, he said, "As far as I can tell, we were never contacted by Rezko tenants."

Obama got more than $50,000 in campaign contributions from Rezko, Rezko's family, his businesses and business associates between 1995 and 2004, records show.

"Mr. Rezko gave me campaign contributions,'' Obama said. "While I was a state senator, he had buildings in my district that apparently were not managed properly. I had no knowledge of that at the time.''

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/355098,CST-NWS-obama24.article

[mythyc]

137. .

[Duder]

18. No doubt Hillary had a lot going on

'In 1996, Hillary Clinton's Rose law firm billing records, sought for two years by congressional investigators and the special prosecutor were found in the back room of the personal residence at the White House. Clinton said she had no idea how they got there.'

[ecdab]

19. It wouldn't be a big deal except for the fact that she used this fabricated

story to enhance her "experience" argument. It wasn't just a matter of misplaced facts, it was a matter of trying to get people to believe something about her that was not true, but that would advantage her if they did believe it.

The reason people are paying attention to it is because of the holes in her "experience" argument that have been filled with some fairly odd things, this being the oddest to date. Her rather flawed "experience" argument is the core of her campaign - without that argument her Presidential aspirations go away. Now that she is being vetted, in a very limited way, regarding her "experience" some interesting questions are being raised. This was a very poor response to that test of her character - lying always is.

[bigtree]

20. big deal. Obama said his experience is that he's traveled to foreign countries.

This is a campaign. EVERYTHING is exaggerated. Both candidates are trying to put their life experiences in the best light possible. Like Obama claiming community organizing is some sort of presidential qualification.

[ecdab]

141. The thing is she lied about her experience - and she got busted.

If she wants to make news by telling lies, she needs to understand that it will also be news when she gets busted for telling lies.

I think most people will take Obama's actual experiences over Hillary's make believe experiences. Obama isn't telling tales of ducking gun fire in the Robert Taylor Homes in order to help families on the south-side of Chicago.

[XemaSab]

21. I remember voting for Nader

because I wasn't thrilled with Clinton but I knew he would carry California even without my vote. :shrug:

[Forkboy]

22. LOL..if you don't then you're wise not to brag about that which you don't remember.

:shrug:

[bigtree]

28. but, it happens. It's not lying. Memories fade. Facts get jumbled together.

I'm always awed and amazed by the absolutely perfect people who post on this board.

[Forkboy]

39. I know...as always I'm being a jerk.

But, jerk or not, my point remains. If she didn't know for sure than she damn well shouldn't have acted as if she did. :shrug:

[dempartisan23]

26. i was at my neighbors pool

in my pink bikini with blue polka dots. i didnt know or care about politics, hehe

[Abacus]

29. Good try,

but plenty of other people have offered independent accounts with apparently much better accuracy. Is Hillary's memory exceptionally poor compared to that of others? Things forgotten are license plate numbers, the color of an article of clothing, the name of a journalist. Things manufactured are receiving sniper fire instead of hearing a poem from a 7 year old. Hillary's best hope is that she has juxtaposed two different events, but the lack of forthcoming information is making that increasingly unlikely. I find it hard to fathom that anyone unaccustomed to taking sniper fire would be so egregiously wrong on so many not-so-minor details.

I expect politicians to exaggerate and I try to avoid these sort of back-and-forth entanglements on DU, but some of the lengths people go to to justify the perspectives of their respective candidates are ridiculous.

[bigtree]

38. Sinbad described the one landing. There were two others.

You have just 'lied' in your post, from my perspective, if I use your own logic. Hillary never said she was 'receiving sniper fire'. She spoke of evasive maneuvers moving to the vehicles because of the threat from sniper fire. All of the rest looks like she's jumbled the events together in her recollection she offered. I think that to go to the lengths of labeling that a lie is dishonest, considering that there was an obvious risk and that she is entitled to make mistakes in her own perspective and remembrance of the trip, just like we do in our own recollections of the past.

[Abacus]

48. "I remember landing under sniper fire. "

Clinton described her trip to Bosnia on Monday during a speech about Iraq in Washington. She said: "I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080317/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_fact_check_1

Thank you for illustrating my point.

[bigtree]

58. How do you know there wasn't sniper fire surrounding her landing?

How do know she wasn't told of that, as she recalled?

[Abacus]

106. I don't.

I don't "know" anything, but I'm an Occam's Razor kinda guy. For me to believe Hillary's recounting, which is more extensive than only sniper fire, I have to dismiss a lot of evidence to the contrary. Before this goes further, I should state that I don't care whether Hillary lied or not; neither case will change my opinion of her. Politically, she needs to provide definitive proof of her version of events or change the subject.

[WolverineDG]

62. Where else in Bosnia could a C17 land?

besides Tuzla.

dg

[bigtree]

67. Maybe she's mixed that in with one of the other stops. Makes sense to me.

Her speech writer confirms the evasive procedures upon the landing of the plane. Clinton's book recalls the greeting cut short because of the risk from sniper fire. Her recollection may be inaccurate to place or order of efvents, but it is plausible as to the risks and danger involved in the visit by the First Lady to the 'separation zone' between the warring parties.

[WolverineDG]

72. The other stops were by helicopter

and if she was worried about being inaccurate, I'm sure the many media outlets that covered that trip would have made their footage & coverage available to her.

and "risk" of sniper fire is a hell of a lot different than "being under" sniper fire. One MIGHT happen, the other IS happening.

dg

[bigtree]

83. it was a statement off the cuff. Who cares whether it occured off of a helicopter or a plane?

The risks existed. There would have been evasive procedures as she described. She has her own recollections of the incident, obviously muddled by time. She tried to provide accounts confirming her perspective, but they are incomplete. That doesn't make her a liar for what she said she recalled.

[WolverineDG]

88. because she said she was on a plane

and how the heck can you confuse a landing on a plane v. landing in a helicopter?

dg

[bigtree]

91. It looks like she did. What's the difference where it occurred? The risks were real.

There would have been obvious security procedures employed and risks which are in line with what she recalled. That's far from a lie.

[WolverineDG]

146. But "risk" of being under fire is completely different

that ACTUALLY being under fire. She lied about it. Plain & simple. Lied.

dg

[againes654]

32. Giving birth n/t

[Umbram]

33. I was NOT under sniper fire. Wow, that was easy. (nt)

[boppers]

35. Puffing myself up would make me a liar, yes.

If my memory was inclined towards dishonesty in order for me to "look good", I think that's something the public would find worth considering. We've already had one president (at least) who did not think they were a crook, because of their selective memory.

Others may not call such mental failings "lies", I, however, do.

[Straight Shooter]

37. Everyone thinks this is so funny to mock Hillary Clinton's memory.

Sit in on a trial of a mass shooting and discover for yourself how eyewitness accounts differ, and how memories fade after as little as a year. Defense lawyers count on the phenomenon of confabulation and faulty memory to get their client exculpated of charges if at all possible. FWIW, what we think we endured is usually a lot worse than what actually happened.

Any fishing folk here? How big was the one that got away, eh?

ETA, I can't remember 1996. I can't remember 2006.

[ecstatic]

45. ...

:crazy:

[Yael]

65. Far cry between witness accounts of a shooting and the difference between

being shot at and listening to an 8 year old read a poem.

If Hillary can't mentally process the difference between those two kinds of events, then we have more to worry about than who is answering the phone at 3am.

[bigtree]

99. her own book describes the greeting ceremony interrupted by the risk.

but, you know better from a photograph.

[Yael]

105. Photograph? No, friend -- I watched the video. I was looking for the 'ducking

and running for cover to the cars' scene, but never saw it.

[bigtree]

112. Evidently it didn't happen at that landing. That doesn't mean it didn't happen at the other landings

. . . at the forward positions in the combat zone. Her recollection of the incidents is apparently faulty. That's not a lie, it's a faulty recall. I'd expect the same standard for any recollection of such a visit 11 years ago.

[Yael]

144. What other landings? That was her only plane ride

The others were helicopter rides and as the helipad was ON BASE there were no cars to run to.

Sorry -- this one just doesn't pass muster.

She needs to take a hint from the present administration's approval ratings and admit that she made a mistake rather than beating this very dead horse. Right now, it will go down as her lying to pad her resume.

[ecstatic]

41. I know I wasn't being shot at!

Can we get real here? Seriously

[bigtree]

47. you get real. Says the plane came in under evasive procedures because of sniper fire.

That's what she understood and remembers. She recalls ducking and running for the vehicles. That's not uncommon on an open tarmac in a combat zone for the First Lady of the United States.

[mattclearing]

42. If you got shot at, you would remember that. n/t

[RichardRay]

46. Oh, come on...

Face it - she said things to make it sound like she was in much greater risk than she was. There is no way to read her statements any other way.

I'll grant you that they may have moved briskly to the cars, but there was a damn ceremony with an 8 year old reading a poem. But they were NOT 'landing under sniper fire'. If they had been there would have been counter fire and armored vehicles taking her off the stairs when she got out of the plane!

Was there some sniper fire someplace in the AO? Could have been, but with the First Lady landing they would have put her in a flack jacket if there was a 10 year old with a bee-bee gun someplace in the city in the last two weeks. 'Landing under fire' means she was being fired on; I just can't read it any other way. Reports of sniper fire in the vicinity around that time does not equal 'landing under fire'.

I'll grant you that her visits to the fire bases around Tuzla may have been more tense, although the picture of the guys with slung weapons standing on top of stone walls doesn't convince me of the imminent danger of anyone getting shot. Be that as it may, visiting a tense fire base away from the city still doesn't equal 'landing under fire' at the airport.

Yes, there was more risk in going than there was in staying home in Washington, but, for god's sake, she took Chelsea! Now, Chelsea was a brave kid, and she had to be pretty tough just to get through those years without turning into a raging basket case, but I don't think her mom said, "Come on, Chelsea, let's go to a combat zone and get shot at."

Just let it rest, you're starting to sound like Bill trying to explain why he didn't 'have sex' with 'that woman'.

[bigtree]

49. I think the efforts to portray her recollection as a lie are tortured and strained.

She hasn't committed any crime. She was making an obviously risky mission into a combat zone on behalf of the United States. The attempt to minimize or dismiss that risk to the then-First Lady is incredibly sad.

[RichardRay]

51. How about this?

I will not call it a lie (I haven't done so to date, and I won't start). In return, you agree that some parts of her story aren't 100% congruent with what happened. I'll agree to NOT believe that she was self-aggrandizing in her statements, you agree that she wasn't quite accurate.

How about that?

[bigtree]

54. I think it's more than clear that she got the story wrong when she related it

Either to the place or the order of events. But, I think there's clear evidence of the risks she described, even if she wasn't in the imminent danger she suggested in her statement.

[Yael]

66. They had a 16 year old Chelsea and 2+ civilians on the plane

They wouldn't have even landed.

[bigtree]

90. They took evasive measures to avert the risk. What a thin reed your attack rests on

. . . to posture as if that there was no risk at all to the First Family in a combat zone.

[Yael]

104. You are killing me over here

Please tell me that you didn't watch the actual video of the landing and greeting ceremony?

[bigtree]

116. that was just ONE of the landings.

I believe she's confused the initial landing with one of the others and jumbled the circumstances in her recollection. That's not uncommon. We usually call that a faulty memory, not a lie.

[Yael]

145. Didn't read the military reports either, I see

That was the only airstrip in the country that could handle a plane of that size. The other landings were helo rides landing directly on bases and no military records show any sniper fire (or security concern) at the time she landed.

[bigtree]

156. what military records?

[apocalypsehow]

52. I didn't know you were running for the most powerful office in the land. Good luck!

:sarcasm:

The standard for truthfulness and accuracy from a presidential candidate is extremely high, especially when voters start to think about whose finger they want on that nuclear trigger (among about a million other lesser things that can affect their lives within the ambit of a President's power).

Here, it wasn't even close: Senator Clinton knowingly told a bald-faced lie because she didn't think she'd get called on it. But she has, and them's the breaks sometimes for knowing liars. And that sort of behavior justifiably gives the vast majority of voters pause.

[Exultant Democracy]

53. Oh my god, not remembering something and remembering being shot at are very different.

[bigtree]

56. I don't see where she said she was shot at. I do see where she remembers sniper fire

She was obviously told of the risk, and it's not unusual that there would be evasive maneuvers in a combat zone. She even gave a different recollection in her book where she says the greeting ceremony was cut short. I believe this is a case of jumbled memories rather than some lie. I think it's dishonest to keep hawking her recollection as a lie, rather than an evidently mistaken memory.

[WolverineDG]

55. I was in law school

and not getting shot at.

I remember distinctly the transformer across the street from my apartment going *boom.* While I can't recall the exact date, I was studying for for a criminal procedure class that I was taking in the 2nd semester of the 95-96 term. I also remember that a child visiting his father who lived in my apartment complex was murdered during the summer vacation that year as well.

Good enough for ya?

dg

[bigtree]

71. no. you should know well that others who observed the same events

. . . all those years ago, may well, today, have different recollections about the facts surrounding the incident. Would their versions render you a liar?

[WolverineDG]

81. I doubt their versions would differ

how often does one wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of a bomb going off? (which is what an exploding transformer sounds like, btw) Now it would be a lie if someone in my complex were now running for office & using that incident to back up their "tuff on terrorism" platform by calling it a terrorist attack.

dg

[bigtree]

126. The facts surround the subject of those observations is open to interpretation

. . . by those who are closer to the site of the actual incident. Certainly you don't think that, in your bed, you had the best perspective on the circumstances surrounding the noise you heard. Or, the only perspective which was valid? maybe you did, to your own personal experience at the time, but certainly there were others who held and expressed a different perspective. If they contradict your recollection, would that make you a liar?

[SoCalDem]

59. The woman brought it UP herself.. She's running on her experience

She was THERE..surely she remembers what the AP remembers & Sheryl Corw remembers & Sinbad remembers.

She cannot claim the experience and then "misremember" pivotal parts of it..

A nuclear physicist with Alzheimers is still a nuclear physicist, but if he cannot remember if he has had lunch, or what his name is, would you want him designing a nuclear reactor?

[bigtree]

63. so what. That doesn't make her a liar for her recollection.

Which wasn't all that far out of line with the obvious dangers of the First Lady in a combat zone.

EVERYONE needs references and corroboration to accurately represent past events. There is nothing unusual at all about recalling events from your own perspective and having that account at odds with others.

[rodeodance]

64. Your pics are moking the former First Family--and you expect answers??

[rodeodance]

61. REC

[mythyc]

136. oh, that's who....

appropriate cletus quote: "Watch out for the skunk, them things can go off even after they's dead."

[tabasco]

75. LMAO!

I'm absolutely certain I was not under sniper fire.

I have been under sniper fire in my life, but I am certain that in 1996, I was sniper fire free.

Your attempts to minimize Hillary's prevarications are humorous and pathetic at the same time.

[bigtree]

96. EVERYONE prevaricates in their recollection of past events

Except, perhaps your perfect self.

[tabasco]

100. That statements reflects on you poorly.

I suppose most thieves think "everybody steals" too.

[bigtree]

113. Memories are faulty. That's not the same as stealing.

Especially when discussing an event in which her actions were commendable and not a crime as you infer.

[Teaser]

87. Yes. But I have an eidetic memory

or did, when I was a kid. I don't think you actually keep it as an adult, but I'm still quite good.

[Debi]

101. Getting married at the Courthouse

There were people there with guns - but they were just Sheriff's deputies and such.

Maybe the good Senator should have checked her facts BEFORE telling the story?

[mikelewis]

107. I was drunk most of '96... I slept naked outside in a van chair quite often...

Oh wait... no I didn't... no I remember now... I was in Kosovo throwing my body in front of bullets... shielding the first lady with my body... oh wait... no, I was drunk... the van chair thing... I think that's true.

[Exilednight]

109. Hillary is not applying for just any job, she's applying for the last job she will ever have........

The memory of her events are totally out of the realm of what actually happened. When you look at the video of what happened, there was no sniper fire, no ducking, no running for cover. She stood there as an 8 year old read a poem, with Chelsea right behind her, then kissed the 8 year old and slowly strolled off.

That's not faulty memory, that's a figment of her imagination to pad her resume'.

[dkf]

110. Sniper fire? Nope. Running from the plane for my godforsaken life? Nope.

Gosh, my recollection is great!

[bigtree]

114. Of course she didn't describe it as you have.

Her recollection was more measured. The risk was obvious. The evasive procedures spoken of are realistic. The location and order of events appears to be confused. The risks that she wanted to convey about that trip into the combat zone were real, albeit, they may not have been as critical as she expressed.

[dkf]

122. "I remember landing under sniper fire". "We ran with our heads down...into our vehicles"

"I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/clintons_iraq_speech_at_gwu.html

[bigtree]

129. so, she was told the PLANE was under sniper fire when it was landing

and, she ran to her vehicle with her head down on an exposed tarmac in the middle of a combat zone.

She actually recalls the incident in her book, where she describes the greeting ceremony as 'cut short' because of the threat from snipers. The run to the vehicles could well have occurred after the ceremony was interrupted, as she described in her book. That wouldn't be so far off of what she related.

If you can extrapolate a lie out of that statement, I can extrapolate an explanation.

[dkf]

138. Except we saw her with the little girl who greeted her

and everything looked fine and relaxed.

Its the whole "who do you believe...me or your lying eyes".

You want me to believe her instead of my lying eyes.

Sorry buddy. She has to earn credibility with me and she is currently at zero.

[FlyingSquirrel]

115. I have a clear recollection of voting for Nader in 1996.

:) But only because I knew Dole didn't have a chance in hell.

[Warren DeMontague]

118. I remember that Terry McAuliffe's obnoxious fundraising tactics almost got me fired.

I made the mistake of including a 'work number' with a donation to the DNC. Ooops. For a while I was getting 8-10 calls a day. My employer at the time was not amused.

[AZBlue]

119. I sure as hell remember whether or not I was shot at or under sniper fire.

[TriplePlay]

121. She just forgot - that's the ticket

She also forgot that she meant 35 minutes of experience, not years ...oooops...

It doesn't matter if she lies, because to her words are cheap.
Now if Obama lied like that it would be more important because words are important to him.
See the difference? You can't hold her to his standards.

Don't you people get it?

Let's see if she corrects the error - if she indeed just remembered incorrectly.
I won't hold my breath. She has a bit of a problem admitting to errors.

[Johnny__Motown]

123. I remember NOT being shot at

[Medusa]

124. Actually I do.

I keep my appointment books. And unlike Hillary's mine is not filled with blacked out names, dates, places.

[moc]

127. I remember June 8, 1996 with complete clarity.

It is the day I gave birth to my first child, my daughter.

Every minute of that day is etched on my memory.

I think it is inappropriate to combine "routine" memories with "extraordinary" memories. The latter are recalled with a great deal more accuracy than the former. Giving birth falls into that latter category. I would also think that being shot at and fearing for your life and the life of your only child would also fall into that category.

Sorry, I think HRC is a liar.

[azmouse]

128. Hillary has a secretary who keeps track of her schedule.

It should be pretty easy for her to know where she was and who she was with at any time.

[mythyc]

135. 135 posts and 1 recommendation. that's GOTTA BE A RECORD

ok, who's the cletus who rec'd this p.o.s. thread?

[Yes We Did]

139. I remember 1996 vividly. And if you want to be president, you better be able to also.

It was only 12 years ago, and for her to remember the exact opposite happening... compared to what really happened... I have a real problem with that.

Either she is a liar or has Alzheimer's.

Which would you prefer?

[bigtree]

161. that's unbelievably ignorant. Plenty of folks have problems remembering details of past events

especially if they are over a decade ago. Amazed to know that you are so perfect.

[WinkyDink]

147. Whatever I remember or don't, it would not include thinking something happened that did not.

Because if I could manage THAT trick, I'd "remember" better stuff than getting shot at! ;)

[Liberal Veteran]

148. Didn't Reagan use that tactic of "Can you remember what you were doing on a specific date?"

Or something like that?

[bigtree]

157. as if Reagan was the first to utter those words

how ridiculous.

[Mezzo]

149. what was Obama doing in 1996? His senate records are curiously mia. nt

[Vinca]

150. If I had ever been shot at, I would have remembered it.

Why did she feel she had to lie about this? It was enough just to visit the troops as First Lady. That was a nice thing for a First Lady to do. Didn't she also add that she went because it was too dangerous for the President? Reminded me of Rodney Dangerfield - "Take my wife . . . please."

[theredpen]

151. I was going back and forth to Hong Kong a lot

The jet lag and 26-hour plane flights really take their toll.

But I do remember not being under sniper fire.

[shadowknows69]

152. I was "Living on the air in Cinncinatti, Cinncinatti WKRP"

Ok, actually it was Watertown WCIZ.

[AirmensMom]

154. I remember.

The company I had worked for for 8 years was leaving town, I didn't want to move again, so I had to find a new job. Found one. Then someone close to me, a second "mom", died. Spent Easter weekend away from my family so I could be with her family.

If I couldn't remember accurately, I wouldn't give a speech about it. But I don't have a problem with her over that.

[bigtree]

160. love all of the perfect people who've posted on this thread

Simply unbelievable that their memories are so infallible, though. Good luck with all of this. I've blown my top here.

[madrchsod]

162. i`m not running for president

and if i were i`d make sure that i knew what i did on "that day".

she did`t have to fudge the truth and by doing so she makes it worse. actually the truth about that day is a better story than her fudged one. why can`t she just be herself instead of inventing this "tough act"?

[karynnj]

164. I do remember many thing clearly from 1996

Including defending Bill Clinton to an older relative who had voted for him in 1992, but was extremely negative on him in 1996 because of character issues - lying as much as his relationships with women.

I definitely have no false memories of running from sniper fire - even though I also have memories of a trip to Israel and Egypt that very year. Within the year before, buses were blown up and there were suicide attacks. Fortunately, my kids, husband and I had a great time and confronted no violence in either country. The time in Jerusalem is similar to the excuse given - we knew there was some possible danger and had seen previous attacks on TV. None of us have ever spoken of avoiding sniper fire at all, much less in the great detail she did.

[alcibiades_mystery]

166. I wasn't getting shot at

I would remember that pretty accurately, I should think.

:rofl:

[Kber]

169. Anyone else have a life threatening experience?

mine was February 2, 2002 and I will NOT forget the day, time, or details up to when I was knocked out on my way into emergency surgery. At that's all without the benefits of collaborating documentation.

Do I remember the name of the girl who read the poem at my son's Winter Concert in 2003 - not at all. (Not even sure it was a girl.)

Some memories fade - others are seared in my memory forever!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

170. I can recall the vacation I took to Cancun pretty clearly

It was a great vacation. The landing at the airstrip in the midst of a jungle scared the pee out-a-me.

I remember the new committee I joined that year, and I recall an issue I had with my daughter's math teacher. I also recall my grandmother dying. Getting the phone call telling me she was gone, making the arrangements and attending the service. That still feels as if it were yesterday.

I don't recall everything about that year, but I do recall the greatest highlights of the year with decent clarity.

[burythehatchet]

171. Here's a novel concept. If your memory is hazy, don't lie for the purpose of self promotion.