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You're not getting anywhere with the "it's over Hillary" and "let's move on to the general" posts

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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 08:53 PM
Original message
You're not getting anywhere with the "it's over Hillary" and "let's move on to the general" posts
All you're succeeding in doing is alienating people more than they've already been alienated.

And if you think this phenomenon is confined to DU, think again. People have long memories in politics and perceptions are being hardened now, in the spring.

Face facts. Obama can't win the general without Hillary's supporters and vice versa.

Each candidate represents half the party.

It's an unusual circumstance, because primaries are almost always more decisive than these have been and one candidate surges to the top very early on.

Obviously, it *isn't* over until one candidate withdraws or the super delegates speak en masse.

If it was over, Obama wouldn't be competing in the upcoming states. He would sit back and let Hillary go ahead, knowing he has a lock.

But the fact is he doesn't. And the only way we have even a remote chance to win this fall is if we get our shit together and work to ENCOURAGE people to vote for the ticket in the fall.

The anger at Hillary serves no useful purpose other than to relieve your frustrations at the process.

Critiquing Hillary fairly or writing something positive about Obama is great. Writing something honest from your gut that tries to argue that we all have to come together to win this is great, too.

Writing angry, vindictive posts telling the other candidate to drop out is useless.

I suggest the next time you want to write a post alienating Hillary (or Obama)supporters, you go outside and play ball with your dog and then come back and write a more productive post than the one your ego was telling you to write.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Many of us do feel it's over. We feel like Obama is the presumptive nominee, and
we have an urge to protect that nominee from the damaging, meritless smears (especially the racist/religious ones) that some Hillary supporters insist on regurgitating here, as if they work for Fox News. I can understand wanting to slam him with whatever ammo you have, hoping that he stumbles or hoping that something does him in in order for your girl to somehow pull it out in the end, but that's a very sad, negative place to be--I do not envy true Hillary supporters. They are like ghouls, at this point.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. But you're factually incorrect. It isn't over.
it isn't over until we have a nominee.

Hillary may drop out next week for all I know.

THEN it will be over.

As of now, it isn't. And to pretend it is actually HURTS your candidate because it completely alienates the half of the party that voted for someone else.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's really too bad for them, but they should get over it, because it IS over.
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 09:08 PM by Spider Jerusalem
There is no way Hillary is going to win the nomination. It just is NOT going to happen, barring a miracle. So Hillary's supporters can decide if they're going to behave like petulant children, or if they actually want to see a Democratic president. It doesn't matter if Hillary chooses to campaign all the way through Puerto Rico (which she can't, anyway, because she can't afford to); it won't change the eventual outcome.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. trust me she can afford to if she so chooses
but you're missing the larger point.

In politics, you can't just declare victory.

You have to actually win.

If Obama had won, he wouldn't be campaigning in PA, IN and NC.

Be he IS campaigning there.

I realize you are anxious to have this end. We all are.

But to say "they'll have to get over it" is basically telling the half the party that doesn't currently support Obama to go fuck themselves.

And you know what happens if they take your advice?

We lose in a historical landslide.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Please explain to me exactly how that's ANY different at all...
than the hypothetical of Clinton winning the nomination? Which doesn't, at this point, happen through any means other than one that will be perceived as profoundly unfair and will serve to alienate a lot of people from the Democratic Party, probably for a generation? Would you have all those people just get over it? As you are a Clinton supporter, I would really like to hear your thinknig on this. Because what you're saying goes both ways.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. If Obama
comes into the convention with a lead in both pledged delegates and the popular vote, I think there would be a lot of anger if the superdelegates swung her way and gave her the nomination.

If one candidate comes in with a pledged lead and the other comes in with a popular vote lead, the superdelegates really can swing to whomever they think is more electable and it will be seen as fair.

What's lost in all this is that the SD's are just as legitimate a part of the process as you or I. That's the rules. There is no "overturning the will of the people" because the SD's are just as much "the will of the people" as we are, the way the rules are currently written.

I personally think the entire system needs to be overhauled, but that's another discussion.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The process isn't about popular vote, though.
It's about delegate totals. 'Popular vote' discounts those caucus states which don't report voter totals, and says they essentially don't matter. So no, I don't really see how the scneario you posit could be seen as fair.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. The process is only about pledged delegates if someone can WIN
with pledged delegates alone.

In this race, that's already a mathematical impossibility.

Either candidate has to rely on SD's to win.

Those are the rules we're stuck with.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. But anyone who really thinks...
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 10:33 PM by Spider Jerusalem
that the superdelegates are going to give the nomination to the candidate with fewer (100-200 fewer likely come the convention) pledged delegates is being completely unrealistic. You can talk about the 'rules' all you want, but the reality is that the chance of superdelegates choosing to overturn the results of the pledged delegate contest is virtually nil.
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. There is no national popular vote!
You wouldn't have to see so many arguments for Clinton to concede if you all would just take an honest assessment of the race. Clinton can't win. It's over. Sorry you lost, but let's get to work on winning in November, okay?
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. I was running for something?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. So we're supposed to NOT alienate you by continuing to attack Hillary at a proportion of 8:1?
Seriously, Ruggerson, DU is 8:1 Obama now.

If we continue this, it will only mean increasing negativity which will alienate your side anyway.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. I know you might believe that some sort of "buyer's remorse" might set in with Obama,
that she'll get some sort of insane momentum out of PA and maybe win IN and NC and suddenly the SD's will say, ZOWIE, she's onto a whole new ballgame! Never mind what Obama EARNED in those earlier states, it's only the last few that matter! Who knows, that could happen, and they might decide to ignore the pledged-delegate totals and hand it to her if Obama suffers a string of big losses. However, he's most likely going to keep the upcoming contests closer than they look in polls now (except for WV)--then what? Is she going to keep sending out people like Kerrey and Shaheen and Ferraro to drop their shit-bombs, keep having Bill make dog-whistle "read between the lines" statements, keep mocking his supporters with sarcasm and stereotyping as latte-sipping elitists, keep bringing up the word "unamerican", keep praising McCain and elevating him over Obama? There's a lot of Obama supporters who understand that the GE is going to be ugly, and would rather not allow that sort of senseless damage a head start to sink into the public consciousness, especially from his own side, if she's unlikely to win any other way. Her campaign said, after Wisconsin, that the plan was to drive his negatives up. I'm sorry, I'd rather not see that happen.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
46. ? might??---It has already happened.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I have read just as many posts that smear Clinton as I have Obama.
Its pointless. No one who is serious about either of the two will be convinced in this manner.
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bellasgrams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. It's far from over and your remarks about the Hill supporters
jumping on BO hasn't been anything compared to what the BO people have done to the Hill people for months. We are not ghouls we just want the best person to win and we feel it is the one with the most knowledge, experience, ability. We know what she will do for us, we don't know what BO will do. He's all flash and dance, cheerleading, not at all presidential. He'd make a good inspirational speaker but not president of a country he doesn't even like. His mother was an anti-American atheist, when he chose a church he chose one that mirrored his beliefs. I don't know why anyone would support him.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Oh Yeah Obama Is All Jive Talking Black Shit
He is all flash and dancing, and OMFG he hates America because he cares enough to criticize this country because it has gone off the rails. Now we shall throw in the the gratuitous smack down on his mother. Here I will add to your diatribe about parenting....You are somebodies Grandmother? God help those children. You smell really bad lady, in fact you fucking stink. Take it to your next rally.
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bellasgrams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
64. There is no need for typical BO nasty , the truth is his mother was
an anti-American atheist, when he chose a church he chose one that mirrored his beliefs. That's a fact, if you can believe him. He also stated in his book that he identified with his Black father, who by the way was a drunk and had several wives, but that doesn't have anything to do with this. When he speaks of his white grandmother he speaks of her love for him but never mentions his love for her. Don't take any of this personally. I just don't want him as president. He was my 3rd choice until I started watching and listening to him. I do not want that man for president. He has run the dirtiest primary I've ever lived through. Calling the Clintons racist etc. ,that is just revolting. There is no way either Clinton is a racist, but BO uses it to unite the Black community but tear apart our country more than anything in the past 50 years.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. They're already discussing the bunting on the convention hall.
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. While some have been
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 09:08 PM by wileedog
angry or vindictive, I think most have approached it quite logically.

Obama has locked in the superior pledged delegate count going into the Convention.

There is no such animal as popular vote in an election with caucuses, but for the sake of argument he is winning that too.

The options are the SDs vote with the pledged delegates, and while perhaps angering some Hillary fans, the more logical will have to concede that at the end of the day Obama had more votes.

The other option is the SDs overturn the votes. This will piss of every Obama fan, and perhaps even some fence sitters. An entire primary nomination process overturned by a group of party insiders, mostly because they didn't like his black pastor.

That should go over well. Whatever you think of the Obama scenario, that is a guaranteed loss in the GE. Even against a numbnut like McCain.


Its not vindictive, there's no malice here. Hillary has lost a lot of my respect going to the kitchen sink strategy that turned the campaign negative, but I think she can gain a LOT of people's back if she faces the reality of the situation, gracefully acknowledges a hard fought campaign and throws her support to Obama.

Because the alternative is ugly, and that is not arrogance, conceit or hubris talking, that is plain fact.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. We have a clear favorite at the moment. That is far from the race being over
If Obama loses 8 of the last 10 contests, if the voters of Michigan and Florida do not get the delegates they selected seated or a valid revote instead and polls there continue to show her more popular in those states than Obama, if Obama screws up royally around some new controversy and/or is running ten points behind Hillary Clinton in the national polls for the Democratic nomination ,and 8 points worse than Hillary Clinton in polls of match ups against McCain...

Obnama would no longer seem so inevitable, especially if the pledged delegate count falls under a hundred delegate margin by June. Under those circumstances the Democratic Party would be foolish to feel bound to nominate Obama if he could not win a majority of the delegates just because he piled up a slim pledged delegate lead early in the contest.

The odds don't favor all or most of that happening. Obama is the clear favorite now, but this race is far from being locked in stone, and there is no reason why it should be.



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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. If if if if if if if
You are out of your mind if you think Obama the SDs are going to overturn the PD vote unless Obama is found in bed with a decapitated 12 year old boy.

And the odds of that are better than her odds of carrying 8 of the next 10, or coming within anything close in the PD race.

And even if it all goes right for her, I double dog dare the Superdelegates to go to the convention with Obama as the Pledged Delegate leader, face the black community, and tell them they are ignoring the voting results to put a white person on the ticket instead. And why? Because she doesn't have a scary black pastor.

They will sit out the GE for sure. And we will lose to McCain for sure. Heck, the black community would and should leave the Dem party forever if that happens. Is that worth making sure we get a Clinton on the ticket no matter what?

There is no good outcome here the longer Hillary stays in.There is only more damage. Why is this so hard to understand?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. If those ifs play out in the way I mentioned
You might start worrying about the hispanic community voting for McCain and 25 perscent of Hillary's supporters defecting along with them.

You can not see the damage that trying to intimidate a viable candidate into walking away from her supporters and surrendering to a demand that the voting be prematurely halted now just when the dynamics of this contest are shifting would cause (and I date that back to MArch 4th when Hillary won the popular vote in the 3 largest of the four primaries held that day).
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Not intimidating anyone
Trying to get someone to look at reality.

SDs overturning the vote is a PR nightmare. Its a race relations nightmare. Pelosi has stated it is not going to happen, as have numerous other SDs themselves.

Look, if she wants to 'Huckabee' her way through the rest of the process, get her message out, stump her policies and generally try to attract more attention to herself for future leverage, I have no real problem with it. No one gets hurt.

But spending the next several MONTHS campaigning on a strategy that is based solely on tearing down the leading Dem nominee to make him look "unelectable" to a bunch of party insiders who are going to overturn the vote? Who are going to make a complete and total mockery of the entire primary process? Something the MSM and Republicans are going to point to and laugh at for years? Somthing that may cause a mass exodus of the African American voting block from Dems?

That's insanity.

And BTW, you may want to look at the extreme trouble McCain is having raising money right now. No one in the Republican party is all that happy about him as the nominee, he was just better than the cross-dressing mayor or the Mass governer.

You want to know what would change that in a hurry? Put a Clinton on the ticket.
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
57. Very good points
If it were the other way around there's no way the supporters would be willing to give up.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. A voice of reason
let's count the votes
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Oh please...the GD:P is all over the internet as the crap place to post
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Bigleaf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. It's over Hilllary. Time to move on to the General. eom
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Drat. Beat me to it.
;)
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. The reason is the only option left is for her to overturn public will. That's not who we are so..
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 09:19 PM by cooolandrew
...time to concede. I know media is trying to say it is close but it is nowhere near.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. Obama is the nominee. It's just the math and the fact. n/t
n/t
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. Mrs. Clinton Needs To Find Some Cookie Recipes...
It's over.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
47. its sexist comments like your OP is is part of the problem


Mrs. Clinton Needs To Find Some Cookie Recipes...

It's over.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. The Only Problem Is Your Fantasy That It's Still Possible For Bill's Wife To Win The Nomination
Nothing sexist about baking cookies, both my wife & I do it.
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. This may be where the origins of Hillary running as an Indie come from.
The arrogance of Barry thinking we would automatically vote for him is just amazing. Michelle saying she isn't sure if she could vote for Hillary. It just keeps stacking up.....I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hillary declares as an Independent candidate if the superdelegates put Barry over the top.

If she runs as an Indie, Barack's game is over - no endorsement in the world would help him then.
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I wouldn't be surprised either. The OP is right though, and point taken.
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 10:38 PM by Life Long Dem
You guys have to think the same way toward us though. Because with a one way street I won't reach out to get my arm cut off.
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Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Did Michelle Obama actually say that she may not vote for Clinton if she was nominated?
It sounds to me that Obama's honeymoon with the media is starting to come to an end. If Clinton runs as an independent in the general election it would be the kiss of death for the democrats. Do the Obama supporters truly think that they have enough supporters on their own to beat McCain?
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CatnHat Donating Member (669 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
49. Obama and
his supporters actually they can win it on their own, good luck! They not only managed to alienate Clinton supporters, but have also managed to alienate independents; crucial voters in the GE.

I can't believe this; if Mrs. Obama is stating she will not vote for Hillary if she is nominated, is a real guarantee that many of Clinton supporters will not vote for husband. Go ahead Obama supporters, act like everyone is just in love with your candidate--guess what-he can't even get to 50% of the democratic vote; and that's nothing to brag about. Clinton is in the same position, but at least she or Bill Clinton don't go around saying they will not vote for their opponent if nominated. Mrs. Obama just shows time and time again she has absolutely no class.

I hope Hillary would consider running as an independent, the democratic party and the Obama camp have disenfranchised FL voters anyway, they did absolutely nothing to help these voters. At least if Hillary Clinton runs as an independent, she wouldn't have to put up with the Obama camp and the party who couldn't care less about the process of getting FL and MI seated.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. She's not going to run as an indie.
No one's been successful doing that yet.

What she will do is step back, gather her resources, and be in place to run against President McCain in 2012.
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
60. Yeah, that's another option.
I make the point about her running as an Independent to tell some of the Obama supporters to back off with their arrogance. This particular nomination race is nowhere near over but we keep hearing over and over again that the numbers aren't there for Hillary so she should therefore drop out, etc. etc. etc. YOu know, you've been here. It gets old.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
27. I try telling them ruggerson, but no one wants to listen.
That's why I say the Red Sox are fucking awesome and all ya'll can't do shit about it!!!!! Woooohooooo...go Sox!!!!! The rest of the AL needs to just shut it down, mofos!!!!!!!


Wait...were we talking about something...?

:P
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
43. heh
now that makes sense. The rest of the AL should just concede.

;)
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
31. K&R
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jenmarie Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Hmmmmm.
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 10:56 PM by jenmarie
From the sounds of some of you O supporters in the comments, one would think he had some gigantic lead. But, nope, he doesn't. Sorry. We're not going to fade away and hand him the nomination. He has to want it bad enough to fight for it as hard as Hillary is. Thanks to ruggerson for recognizing that fact.

Popular Vote Total
Obama: 13,345,318 49.5%
Clinton: 12,634,376 46.9%

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)**
Obama: 13,921,532 47.5%
Clinton: 13,833,671 47.2%

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html


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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Sorry, but I didn't
vote for him. I'm now k&R'ing selected posts to counter this latest bullshit
from the cult wing of the BO camp:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5220308

won't you join me? :shrug:
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. He has a gigantic lead in PDs which is the point
Edited on Mon Mar-24-08 12:30 AM by wileedog
Her own people admit she can't win the pledged delegates and popular vote is irrelevant in an election with caucuses.

"We all use math everyday"
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. It ain't over, 'till it's over.
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. The SDs can use whatever criteria they choose
Popular vote is relevant, and much more Democratic than caucuses anyway.
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. People have long memories? What universe are you living in? America suffers from short term.......
memory loss. This election cycle proves that.

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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'm sorry but it IS over, let's move on to the GE please
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The River Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
36. And You're Not Getting Anywhere..Period
"Writing angry, vindictive posts" filled with endless denial
about the mathematical reality makes it look like the Hillerites here
support gaming the system and changing the rules because thats the only
way she gets the nomination. That is a fact.

But you whine, it's not over till he gets enough votes.
Neither candidate will have enough votes without the SD's.
Either they follow the will of the people (and the math) and Obama becomes the nominee
OR Camp Clinton games the system and pulls a delegate "coup".


Is that what you are cheering for?
A last minute back room deal that
goes against the will of the people
who followed the rules and voted
in their primaries and caucuses?
Thats what it looks like.

And you wonder why we put you on ignore
and let your diatribes sink.

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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. I know that was meant to foster good will
as it was such a gracious, rational post.
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The River Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #40
52. Typical Hillerite Response
Duck the question and apply sarcasm.
Why don't you threaten to boycott the GE
if you she can't have her way?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. see you in Denver
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AmericanUnity Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
42. SHE CAN'T CATCH UP BUT SHE'LL TEAR THE PARTY APART AND HURT OBAMA ANYWAY
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. oh stop with IMMATURE and rude comments. And BORING
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
51. Seriously, you could start by taking your own advice.
You conclude with the suggestion, if "you want to write a post alienating Hillary (or Obama) supporters, you go outside and play ball with your dog and then come back and write a more productive post than the one your ego was telling you to write."

Good advice.

So why does your headline read, You're not getting anywhere with the "it's over Hillary" and "let's move on to the general" posts?

As an Obama supporter, I kind of took that to be a sort of "step over this line" challenge, or provocation. Like waving the red hankie in front of the bull's face. A negative statement to Obama Folks, preceding two negative statements for Hill People, which are emphatically denied in the body copy. (Apologies to the Crips and Bloods.)

True, after the third or fourth sentence, you were starting to go with the "each candidate is half the party" line, which then kind of morphs into "we need each other's help if we're going to win."

But it all came off (to me, at least, maybe I'm reading into it) as a veiled threat. One that says, "if you don't stop being mean, we're going to take our ball and go home and then you won't have a game."

Maybe you didn't mean to say that, but that's the bottom line I inferred from your post. (The same old, same old; that's been messing up this forum, for how long now? You drop out; no, you drop out; no, you...)

Nothing to see here, move along.

I don't even think you're saying anything too serious with that "half the party" stuff. I don't believe that sort of narrow focus describes the current situation very well at all.

The 2008 election isn't going to be a popularity contest, like an election for prom king and queen, or which former car dealer is best suited to represent Grover's Corners in the state legislature. I don't think it's going to be all about the same old identity politics, either. Some traditional Democrats may end up voting for McCain, and others may pull the lever for Nader, or continue to write in "John Edwards", or "Dennis Kucinich." I'm personally hopeful that significant numbers of traditionally tight-fisted, principled, penny-pinching, anti-war Republicans will cross over to vote against a continuation of Bush-Clinton-Bush "business as usual."

Because that's been a catastrophic disaster. This country's B*R*O*K*E. The secrecy, high-handedness, you're-with-us-or-against-us ambition and arrogance of the most recent Bush administration are to blame.

From what I've been hearing her say in the debates, I don't (personally) feel like many Clinton supporters see their support of Hillary as necessarily reflecting the same degree of dissatisfaction with the current regime that I have. (I trace the roots of so many problems, back to that same source.)

In fact, when you've got Bill showing up on Rush's radio show, and Republican "movement conservatives" crossing over to vote for Hillary, in droves, in the last few primaries, how can they?

You wrote, "Face facts. Obama can't win the general without Hillary's supporters and vice versa.

I don't think it'll ever come to that level of hostility. After all, you can't judge all Barack supporters, or all Hillary supporters, on the basis of their representation in frequent postings to the General Discussion > Primaries forum. Whoever tells the American people the truth, and challenges the Republicans directly on their record, is the candidate that's going to win.




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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. Trust me, I hate the current admin as much as you
And more than BO because I never praise Reagan and more than the Clintons because I include McCain as he's a Bush supporter. And I hate their philosophy and their punditry, and in the abstract, even the people who voted for them.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the importance of the Left Blogistan.
I think the people that are on DU are representative of a slice of Dems, the active and passionate ones with access to a computer. In other ones, my peers. So it makes me bitter when I feel my candidate is being unfairly treated by my peers as well as by the media and the process. The activists are the ones expected to do the grunt work of the campaigns, the donations and the phoning and canvassing, etc. I've been doing that for years, but I think I'll restrict myself to the Senatorial contests this election if Obama wins, because I don't want to be working alongside many of the BO supporters here and at DailyKos and other sites. Here it is actually a little better because there are nice supporters too, and it isn't totally an echo chamber.

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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. At least we *agree* on the goal in November.
There are just a few details, along the way, with which we have some slight disagreement. Believe me, I have had a little bit of experience with campaign 'grunt work'. It makes it so much more painful when all that effort goes to waste, and some completely useless bonehead gets elected, or wins the nomination. It's adding actual injury to insult, to a mere affront to vanity.

It shouldn't be a directly comparable phenomenon, but some of that disappointment and frustration is a lot like what goes on in the Wide, Wide World of Sports.

From TomDispatch.com, a month and a half ago:

"Drawing from the best resources on national and local platforms, Fox will bring together America's two greatest passions -- politics and football."

zeitgeist of the moment, creating a 24/7 spectacle of super-entertainment by merging the number-one top-draw extravaganza, Super Bowl Sunday, with the mid-week surprise of a writer-starved TV season, Super Tuesday...

<snip>

...I'm just as addicted as any other red-blooded American. After all, this election is the media equivalent of a barreling train. And not Amtrak either. Think the Japanese bullet train or the French TGV.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174890/the_spectacle_of_campaign_2008




That whole, My-Candidate-Rules-But-Your-Candidate-is-Lame stuff, here on D.U. and on other blogs, has a parking lot edge to it. Like we're in danger of running into when we step out of the voting booth, to walk or drive back home. You yourself just said you felt like you might work for Senate Democrats, in the fall, but didn't want to be running into too many of the Obama supporters you've met here, on dKos, or other blogs, to volunteer for the presidential campaign.

That really should be above and beyond the routine call of duty, to have to feel that way. Supporters of any candidate can set themselves up for precisely that level of partisanship, when the competitive aspect of the sports "race" starts to affect their lives. Total time spent on the campaign keeps adding up, so the intensity and level of personal involvement -- and sometimes the capacity for clear thought -- can get a little distorted.

Instead, easily quantifiable data totals take on enormous importance. It's easier, after awhile, just to keep a sense of the momentum and energy in the campaign, without trying to drill too deeply into the details and minutiae of policy questions. How fast is my candidate's train going, compared to the one on that parallel (?) set of tracks?

Don't think about it too much, just add up The Numbers. Try to keep score, even when you're eating or driving. Don't lose track of the math:



  1. polling percentages,
  2. primary victories,
  3. projected electoral college totals,
  4. delegate counts,
  5. superdelegate prospects, and other numbers, like...
  6. Magic Deadline Dates.


But the way it's been going this year, no mere data projection or total has settled anything, yet. And probably won't, for the foreseeable, immediate future.

It's an extremely superficial way to look at the candidates. I still have no idea what that whole 'passport office' thing was about, for instance. (All three of the remaining candidates' files were "breached?" Go figure. Has anybody been diagnosed with an actual case of anthrax, yet?)

Some of the other posters here have suggested that media coverage of the election has been specifically intended to foster as much intra-mural ill will as possible. That makes Rove and the ditto heads cheer, and in the meantime, with little or no attention focused on anything he does, McCain's poll numbers have nowhere to go but up. So long as all the interest in the race is concentrated on which Democrat has hurt the other, the most, most recently.

What I'm trying to say here is that that formula's not the best way to go about solving the country's problems. The election hoopla itself (with all the overheated projections and openly biased analysis, from assorted pundits, for each and every Red Phone commercial, or out-of-context Campaign Surrogate's off-the-cuff-remark) draws off too much attention from too many real problems.

It's like people think we have a "grace period," because this is an election year. Somebody must have crossed their fingers and yelled, "toots", so nobody has to worry about the direction the country's going in, at the moment. Just follow the delegate numbers...

That's what the Busheviks want us to stay focused on. Anything that keeps attention away from their own careless, criminal, completely self-serving performance in office. With their virtual ownership of most of the media, that "sporting" distraction among the Democrats has made it even more difficult for average voters to think about choosing the candidate with the most likely-to-be-effective policies and position statements. (To my way of thinking, the ideas that specifically identify and directly address the failings of the previous administration.) Instead, we mostly seem to be grasping for the more ephemeral qualities. Like finding the candidate who's more personally believable, or who may have demonstrated some small capacity for leadership. (Be it dodging flak in Bosnia, or trying on local garb, in Kenya.)

To tell the truth, neither one of our remaining candidates has really had all that much experience with being anything like a DECIDER.

So whose campaigns are being weighed on the merits of their "experience?"

None of the Republicans. Not McCain, not Bush. Not the Prince Regent, Cheney.

Sure, there's name-calling. On The Daily Show. When it's "Fake News" comic relief, even the King can laugh at the Jester. Jon Stewart even brought out the Darth Vader doll. Just remember that it doesn't mean anything

Because it's not the Bush "experience factor" that's ever in danger of being evaluated or judged, it's always the Democrats. <1>

No matter how many times Jon Stewart replays that tape of Dubya, from February 18, 2003, a month before the invasion telling Americans that, 'that Saddam, he's up to no good.' Dubya delivered his lines with all the passion, attention, and commitment of a bored frat kid, reading the next day's homework assignment off the blackboard, for a class he didn't much care about.

Just so you and I can look forward to paying four dollars a gallon for gas, this coming summer "busy driving season". Although if enough people lose their jobs, in the meantime, and the whole economy goes into the global dumpster, it's anybody's guess, really, what the cost will be.

So, anyway, I digress. You already said you dislike Bush as much as I do.

I thought about making this an OP, taking another shot at The Greatest list, but screw that. There's been too much back and forth, already. I'm really just trying to take a little extra time to write to you, usrbs, because this General Discussion > Primary partisanship got out of hand a long time ago, already. I'm personally sorry that you feel bitter about the way your candidate's been treated, on this board. (I also don't have a whole lot of other things to keep me busy, today, so what the heck...)

What you and I *should* be doing, instead of knocking one another's favorite Democrats, is asking questions about those candidates that are framed in the context of actual issues that matter. Topics that the Republicans are getting a pass on, in the media, because of all the "excitement" over this nomination ballgame.

I'd personally like to know what both Hillary and Barack have had to say about *any* of the following. They're all issues that should be raised, during the General Election:


  • FISA immunity for telecoms -- the provision that House Democrats threw back in Bush's face!
  • Where, exactly, did the money go, in Iraq, for what demonstrably achieved goals?
  • What's the (frightening) likelihood that the neo-cons are ginning up some new threat to peace and stability (Iran?), the better to divide and rule all of us for four more years?
  • What's up with Blackwater, specifically, and who came up with that whole concept of "privatizing" the U.S. Army, paying mercenaries ten times what ordinary soldiers earn, in the same combat theater. <2>
  • If Sibel Edmonds were free to testify, would there be any overlap, or confirmation of Democrats' worst fears regarding Domestic Spying, PlameGate (real, not imaginaryWMD proliferation, War Profiteering/The Culture of Corruption. ("K Street" meets the Turkish "Deep State.")


Like the bumper sticker says, 'if you're not outraged, you must not be paying any attention.'

(As if the media even *wanted* people to think about actual ideas, or any problems they themselves haven't chosen to focus on.)

But bigger than all of those other issues, the biggest one has to be


  • The Economy, Stupid


I happened to find this on Counterpunch, from Paul Craig Roberts, but it's nothing that can't be found, re-stated any number of different ways, on any number of different blogs:

March 12. Crude oil for April delivery hit $110 per barrel. The US dollar fell to a new low against the Euro. It now takes $1.55 to purchase one Euro.

These new highs against the dollar are the ongoing story of the collapse of the US dollar as world reserve currency and corresponding collapse of American power.

Each new decision from the insane Bush regime pushes the dollar a little further along to oblivion. The same Fed announcement that boosted the stock market on March 11 sent the dollar reeling and the price of oil up. The Fed’s announcement that it and other central banks are going to deal with the derivative crisis by monetizing $200 billion of the troubled instruments signaled more dollar inflation.

Of course, something needed to be done to forestall an implosion of the financial system, but a less costly alternative was at hand. The mark-to-market rule could have been suspended in order to halt the forced sale and write down of assets and to provide time in which to sort out derivative values, which are higher than the fire sale prices.

More pressure on the dollar resulted from the decision to award the European company, Airbus, a $40 billion contract that could reach $100 billion to build US Air Force tankers. In simple terms, that means another $40 to $100 billion added to the US trade deficit, and a loss of $40 to $100 billion in US Gross Domestic Product and associated jobs.

Of course, the Bush regime had to award the contract to Europe as a payoff for Europe’s support of the Bush regime’s wars of aggression in the Middle East. Europe is not going to provide Bush with diplomatic cover for his wars and NATO troops for his war in Afghanistan without a payoff.

Here is the picture: The US economy, which has been kept alive by enormous debt expansion that has over-reached its limit, is falling into recession. The traditional way out by expanding the supply of money and credit is blocked by the impaired banking system, the levels of consumer debt, the collapsing value of the US dollar, and rising inflation...

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03132008.html


Not a very reassuring analysis, is it? It's like the economy is Wiley Coyote, after the Road Runner's already zipped past, but just before the rapidly falling, "whistling noise" starts.

O.K., here's my question for Hillary Supporters, then. I happened to catch some of her "Economic Solutions for America" speech, this morning in Philadelphia. CNN played a few minutes of it, and I was a little let down by what I heard. I'm certainly no economist, I just try and follow along, out of curiosity, but it bugged me to hear her suggestion that 'our economic problems stem from the home mortgage crisis'.

I'm paraphrasing, but here's what the Boston Globe said:

Hillary Clinton called this morning for emergency, far-reaching steps to stem home foreclosures, saying the crisis is weakening the entire economy.

In what her campaign billed as a major policy speech, she outlined a four-point plan that includes giving more aid so homeowners in danger of losing their houses can restructure their mortgages, launching a high-powered working group that would report back in three weeks on ways to broadly restructure at-risk mortgages, easing legal liability for mortgage servicers to help unfreeze the mortgage market, and giving states and cities an additional $30 billion to fight foreclosures..

"We are experiencing a crisis of confidence in our country," she told supporters in Philadelphia..."


This policy speech includes recommendations that very closely parallel what Barack Obama said needed to be done, precisely one year and two days ago.

On Thursday, March 22nd, 2007 U.S. Senator Barack Obama sent a letter to Federal Reserve Chairman Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Paulson urging them to immediately convene a homeownership preservation summit with key stakeholders to fight foreclosures driven by growth in the subprime mortgage market.


Barack's plan includes wider representation in what Hillary referred to as the "high-powered working group," to allow public interest advocates a seat at the table, or summit. That way, the same "experts" mostly to blame for having let things run out of control, in the first place, would not be the sole arbiters of planning, and eventual amelioration.

Admittedly, usrbs, none of that's as viscerally gripping, or as immediately rewarding an activity, as typing "Hillary's a shill for the DLC," 500 times, in the GD > P forum. (Okay, maybe not 500 times, I was never that bad, but allowing for creative development and re-interpretation of the basic theme, probably a whole bunch of times.) <3>

What I'm trying to say here is that I have been digging around for actual links, reference data, and quotes, from both of our candidates, on the economy, but I've been a little bit disappointed by both of them. I'm not sure either one is looking at the larger picture.

How about some sort of cost/benefit accounting of what Bush's is really going to cost us?

Call that a challenge to both candidate's supporters. What does either one really have to say about the most serious crisis facing this country?

Maybe if we could both agree on that, it would be worth re-posting this reply as an OP, to get some wider participation and input. (Some of which might even be, in some way, productive.)


Footnotes:

<1> Case in Point: I'm still waiting for somebody to apologize to John Kerry. Maybe not personally, but with some sort of Public Correction Notice, for what happened in 2004. Kerry was raked over the coals repeatedly for his combat service, while Dubya got a pass for his "after midnight" contributions to the champagne tradition of the Texas Air National Guard. No one could be found to collect the reward money, for confirming that Dubya had spent even one day at the Guard base in Alabama.

<2> I'd really like to know if there are any curiously disproportional racial/class elements to military privatization. To what extent have better-off white guys -- not to mention the Republican Base types, who run all the companies -- created what John Edwards might have referred to as "TWO American Armies?" Is our regular army now a second class branch of service, reserved for the ordinary schmuck off the street? (Americans of all colors and creeds; Black, Brown, Latino, Native American, as well as European-American. All those kids from Nowhere, U.S.A., who all happen to come from areas somehow by-passed, by the Bush Economic Miracle.)

<3> Mary Mapes, Dan Rather's producer for 60 Minutes, who helped to expose both the Abu Graib prisoner abuse scandals, and the "Jerry Killian" Texas Air National Guard documents, had this to say on the subject of

Attack Politics:

"Reality didn't matter. Right and wrong didn't matter. Winning was the only thing that mattered to any of the people masterminding the slash-and-burn campaigns that benefited George W. Bush."



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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
53. thanks ruggerson!
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2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
54. k&r
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
56. Hillary beats McCain in latest poll; Obama loses. How's that for over?
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TheDeathadder Donating Member (731 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
61. I just laugh when the Obama people say
"it's over Hillary" or "Save Obama. Stop the Primary"

They are going to be so mad when she wins Penn and the party wakes up and gets behind her. It's going to be an awesome convention and an even greater GE when she buries McCain.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
62. I like to see them, these days
The frustration from the Obama camp is delicious. He just can't close this thing out. I've never seen anything like it.
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