Is "NBD" a threat? Is it party disloyalty? Or is it honest & fair?

[Bucky]

I've noticed a lot of Dean supporters sticking "NBD" and "non-transferable" notes on their sig files. I'm more offended at this than threatened, but I get the feeling it's intended as a threat. And yet saying that seems unfair of me. This isn't a dictatorship, we don't compel people to vote one way or another (Broward County excepted, of course).

So my question is, do you think this is a threat or a sincere statement that if Dean isn't president, no one else is better than Bush? I can't in my heart see the intellectual integrity of the argument that Bush is at least tied for being the second most qualified candidate in the race.

I'm really perplexed at this. I'm particularly interested in hearing from non-Dean supporters who think this is an okay thing to say and from Dean supporters who can't countenance the "NBD" sentiment. That is, I want to hear some new and surprising insights in this thread.

If your beliefs are more predictable, please keep your comments civil.



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[LuminousX]

1. Define 'a lot', I've only seen one.

[Walt Starr]

2. I've seen more than one

But nobody else marks theirs up as much as I do.

[Walt Starr]

3. Just a note, some people are turned off by loyalty oath requirements

Thought I'd make that point.

[VelmaD]

5. I'm not requiring a loyalty oath, but...

I don't think it's too much to expect that people on a site named democraticunderground actually go out and vote for Democrats. Especially considering the current alternative.

[_NorCal_D_]

4. It doesn't really bother me.

It's silly, childish, and pathetic, but not offensive.

[xultar]

26. 2 True....I ditto that! n/t

[mouse7]

6. Stop calling Dean and Dean supporters evil incarnate

I imagine that if supporters of candidates other than Dean stopped claiming Pol Pot was preferable to Dean, those NBDs would start to disappear.

[VelmaD]

7. In return will the Dean supporters...

stop saying that the other Democractic candidates are not better than Bush? :-)

[Hep]

8. You find people standing up for their principles offensive

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not NBD. But there are a handful of D candidates that I WILL NOT vote for.

[Bucky]

11. I find some principles offensive, sure. So does everyone.

My question is to get feedback and insight from those who express this perplexing notion. It seems not to be different from saying that George Bush is the second most qualified person to be president. That view point seems dramatically at odds with other values expressed by Dr. Dean such as "the war was wrong" and "tax breaks for the wealthy hurt working families."

So yes, the notion that among all the candidats only Dean is acceptable is quite offensive--not just to me but to the principles of Madisonian democracy, which is the idea that diverse people and interests can come together and support each other for a common cause.


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[zulchzulu]

9. I'll be honest; it's pretty sad

I firmly believe that a NBD is probably not really up on the issues beyond the "soundbite" level.

Based on NBDers I've met and tried to engage in a discussion with, it was usually a sad commentary on how uninformed people are about their candidate's background, other candidate's backgrounds and experience and generally immature views on the state of the World and real solutions vs. their solutionless petty anger.

This is not directed at Dean supporters with an open mind or those that support Dean and have legitimate arguments to support their candidate. These supporters would not be NBDers.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

12. Why is it acceptible on a Democratic board

to highlight groups whose mission is anybody but Dean? With all the non-stop Dean-bashing, punitive measures taken to ostricize Dean supporters, and overall hostility bombarding Dean on a daily basis from rival camps and their supporters, WHY is it any surprise that some Dean supporters would be less than enthusiastic about falling in line behind Democrats who echoed Republican attacks?

Support for Dean, was something Dean achieved, he worked for it, he won it.It is not an arbitrary decision. Other candidates who covet his base of support would do best not to alienate it.

[quinnox]

13. It is childish

Disloyal? Of course. Silly? Yes. But not truly important. In the end, the overwhelming majority of Democrats will vote for the nominee, no matter who it might be. The NBD's aren't significant enough in numbers to have any power.

[ErasureAcer]

15. I am not voting for Dean no matter what in any election

He doesn't reflect 1/20 of my beliefs
And he is a HARDCORE liar and flip-flopper
And a vote for a progressive candidate will only make the Dems move left or pay the consequences.

those 3 reasons are good enough for me not to ever vote for the man.

And my vote will matter as I'm in good ole Minnesota...battleground state for 2004. If you count the Mondale vs Coleman votes as a predictor for the presidency...you can count one less Mondale vote if Dean is the nominee.

I hate Howard Dean with a passion. People like him should not be president of the united states of america.

[Hoppin_Mad]

17. If he's the nominee you still won't vote for him ? What will you do ?

Not vote ?

Vote Green ?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

21. Do you even read thread titles?

The question being posed here was...

Is "NBD" a threat? Is it party disloyalty? Or is it honest & fair?

The question was not, "Hey can I get a shout-out from everyone here who won't vote for Dean?"

Thank you.

[ErasureAcer]

23. calm down dude

take a chill pill!

yes ABD and NBD are both fair.

People can do whatever the fuck they want to do with their votes...including not supporting Dean or supporting only Dean.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

24. Thank you for responding to the thread title

I need no chill pill my friend. In fact, I'm high right now.

[molly]

31. Dean set NBD in motion a while ago

with his statement that he didn't think "his kids' votes would support any other candidate if he didn't get the nomination. He is the ONLY candidate that has made such a selfish self-serving statement. ABD is kind of turn-about-is-fair-play.

[Scott Lee]

14. I'm surprised that you didn't see this coming.

Just how much anti-Dean slime do you think Dean supporters are going to take before they start hitting back? Don't you know who you are dealing with here? We aren't the pansey pink tutu stripe of the Democratic party, who cry in their crown of thorns as the opposition hits us. You shove us, we shove back with three times the force.

If you want to see the disappearance of things like "NBD" and "this vote is not transferrable", I'd suggest those of you who routinely bash Governor Dean might rethink your strategy.

Bullying won't win you a thing on this score.

[bearfartinthewoods]

25. we shove back with three times the force

just like your candidate.

can't wait to see the dean school of diplomacy work on north korea..

[Northwind]

32. You do not have 3 times the force

You have none.

This race belongs to us.

NBD '04

[Justice]

16. Comparisons of Dean and Nader

An observation and an invitation for self reflection -

Many Dean supporters support Dean because he spoke out against the war. They say they knew there was no WMD, and any candidate who believed the adminstration about the WMD is not to be believed - because the non-evidence was as plain as day. The IWR vote is a litmus test for them.

In 2000 there were many MANY of us who said a vote for Nader was a vote for Bush. Naderites and Greens said no, and voted for Nader. Voting for Nader in Florida caused Bush to win Florida - and ultimately be appointed president. It was as plain as day to us - but Greens and Naderites said no - wasn't their fault that Bush won.

For Dean supporters who are now NBD - that is your right, your choice. But if Dean is not the nominee, and Bush wins this election because you sit out the GE - then your sitting out is a vote for Bush - plain as day. I ask you to self reflect a bit and consider whether our country can truly sustain another 4 years of Bush.

[Walt Starr]

28. There is only ONE way to vote for Bush

One must go to the polling place, pick up a ballot, go to the voting booth, and punch the hole next to Bush's name.

Anything other than that is NOT a vote for Bush. Under the logic that not voting is actually a vote for Bush, Bush won the 2000 election in the biggest landlside in American history with more than 75% of the vote.

[ErasureAcer]

34. Post of the Day

:yourock:

[revcarol]

18. I've been trying to stay out of this BUT

some have principles that just won't allow them to support Dean. They expect Dean to be truthful about other candidates' records. They want us out of Iraq in a planned way to turn the country over to the UN. They hate Dean's strong stance for NAFTA.They want a less militaristic government and the "defense" budget to be reduced.They want to keep the safety net and social programs and not just see them starved by "balance the budget above all" Dean.

So who are we to say that ABD is not right, a non-threatening statement of the poster? And NBD is in the same category.

Disclaimer: Dean is tied with Lieberman at the bottom of my preference list.

[CWebster]

19. Hmmm

and you want us to sign a petition to support your candidate?

What would be the point of that?

[revcarol]

22. I want you to sign a petition to cover ALL candidates, not just mine.

HEY, I think the media is screwing ALL Democrats over.This is just one example of them not working in the public interest.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

20. I'm not NBD and don't support the sentiment

but I can understand the frustration of those here who feel that way.

For the last couple of months I have seen threads every single day asking us to take the loyalty oath and promise that we will vote Dem no matter who the nominee is. I, like many others, took that oath many times. I even started a thread saying as much --- that I was a Dean supporter but I was ABB. I think we've stated enough times and in enough places that we are loyal Democrats who want Bush out of office first and foremost.

I can't speak for anyone else but quite frankly I'm sick of saying it over and over again. I'm sick of defending my preference over and over again. I'm sick of seeing the same attacks, by the same people, over and over again. I'm sick of being treated like a criminal or some naive neophyte for my choice of candidate. I'm sick of being called a cult member. I'm sick of being talked down to. Anyone else supporting any other candidate would feel the same way under similar circumstances.

So, long story short --- even though I'm not ABD and don't agree with the sentiment, I can understand the frustration that would lead some to feel that way.

[Iverson]

27. It's none of the above.

Get a grip! It's political speech in a tradition of oversimplified sloganeering. It is not a fully developed ethos.

Expect to see, read, and hear stuff like that approaching and during primaries.

Be calm.

[SayitAintSo]

29. I like the way you frame the question...

And no, Bush isn't the second most qualified, and every true Dem here knows that. My opinion - every one has a right to vote anyway they damn well please. However, the act of participating in an ABD or NBD movement shows me a person that either: 1) doesn't have their eye on the big prize, 2) can't see the forest for the trees, 3) will win the battle to knowingly lose the war, 4) Has lost complete sight of the prime objective 5) needs to swear off the kool-aid for a while.

Item 4 is probably the key point here. In my most objective frame of mind I can not fathom either position (NBD / ABD).

my 2 cents ....

[MaineDem]

30. I find it disconcerting

Makes me wonder if they understand the process and the goal.

They have a right to their opinion, of course, but the fight's not over yet. And the ultimate issue is working together to beat Boy George.

I have my candidate and I'm working hard to get him nominated. If he doesn't make it I will support the nominee. I will take a deep breath but I will work as hard for him as I am now.

[Northwind]

33. My goal

Is to put Dean in the White House.

If he is not the nominee, it doesn't matter to me if it is Bush or any of the other Dems. There's Dean, and then there's everyonbe else, and Dean is the only acceptable choice.

NBD '04

[MaineDem]

35. That's a shame

But to each, her own.