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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 11:25 AM
Original message
All in the Family
One of the curious aspects of the 2008 primary is how different groups of democrats view Bill and Hillary Clinton, and how those different groups view each other. I think it is interesting to compare what is happening today with some history from the 1990s. Let’s take a few minutes to review some information from the journals of Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.

Schlesinger was a liberal democratic historian, who is most closely associated with John and Robert Kennedy. He had worked with Adlai Stevenson before the Kennedys, and continued to be active in liberal circles until his recent death. He was a strong opponent of Richard Nixon, and authored "The Imperial Presidency," which remains one of the best books on impeachment.

In the late 1980s, Schlesinger believed that the liberal wing of the democratic party had two potentially strong national leaders. Both were experienced governors: Mario Cuomo and Bill Clinton. He believed that either of the two would be able to provide the leadership the party needed in 1988

Schlesinger was pleased when Clinton did enter the ’92 race. He assisted the Clinton campaign in the general election. One of the things that stands out in his journals is that when the media began to attack candidate Clinton, that Arthur was uncomfortable with Bill’s response.

On February 20, 1993, Arthur and some democratic members of Congress were discussing concerns with the way the media was defining President Clinton. Schlesinger felt that some members of the press had been pro-Clinton early in the election, and were trying to compensate in the early days of the administration by attacking him. He disagreed with his friends’ belief that President Clinton should react by attacking the media. He said that "every time a politician wants to win applause from a crowd, all he has to do is attack the press." (page 743) Instead, Schlesinger advocated that Clinton use the tactics that JFK used when dealing with reporters.

On August 3, 1994, Schlesinger and friends were concerned that the media was being used in a manner that took the Clinton administration off course. A friend attempted to talk to President Clinton about changing his approach to the media. But she told Schlesinger that "it’s very difficult to know how much of it really penetrates. He feels so terribly hurt and frustrated and beleaguered and sees himself as the object of persecution by the press." When he asked if Hillary was any help, his friend said, "No. She is worse."

Schlesinger wrote, "Presidents are congenitally angry at the press and never feel they are getting the credit due them. But Clinton seems to lack both the temperamental detachment and historical perspective. JFK, though he would blow up (briefly) at the press, was saved by an ironic slant on life and an objectivity about himself." (page 770)

On October 28, 1994, President Clinton called Schlesinger, to ask his help on an upcoming speech to the United Nations. Schlesinger said he would be glad to help. "Then he digressed into his general situation and went into a rambling attack on the media." Clinton told Schlesinger that he had been treated worse than any other President in US history. Being a presidential historian with a keen interest in the role of the media, Arthur Schlesing was able to correct Clinton on this; he mentioned, for example, FDR.

"But the air of incipient paranoia in Clinton’s wail of exasperation is a little disquieting," he wrote. Schlesinger continued to take note of what he called President Clinton’s "Nixon-style paranoia about the ‘media’." (pages 774 and 789)

In November, 1995, when the press confronted him about an inconsistency in a speech about economics, President Clinton replied, "My mother told me I should never make a speech when I am tired." A few days later, at a ceremony at the Truman Library, Schlesinger made an attempt at humor when he quietly said to President Clinton, "Don’t forget what your mother told you."

He wrote that this "seemed to irritate him greatly, and he went into an annoyed and defensive account of how he had been misrepresented, etc. I tried to move on (we were in a receiving line), but he held me by the arm and continued an angry and largely incomprehensible explanation." (page 793)

A few days after that, President Clinton called neoconservative journalist Ben Wattenberg, and had an hour-long conversation in which he explained that he had been "too liberal" in his first two years, and had decided to "reform and take the Democratic Leadership Council line." (page 793)

Schlesinger would continue to support Clinton, and was among the experts who testified before Congress that the efforts to impeach the President were unjustified. However, he noted that there were times when it was unclear "what Clinton stands for, if anything." He concluded that Bill Clinton lacked one of JFK’s strengths: "Kennedy made mistakes but generally learned from them. Clinton generally repeats his mistakes."

For many liberal and progressive democrats, Schlesinger’s descriptions of Bill Clinton seem to apply to Hillary Clinton. It’s not that we started off with an anti-Hillary agenda, and we certainly recognize that she would be 1000 times better than John McCain as president. But we see areas where we think she is more like her husband, and where Barack Obama is more like John Kennedy.

In response to the concerns about Rev. Wright, Obama delivered one of the most positive and powerful speeches in our lifetimes. In response to the misrepresentations of her Bosnia trip, Senator Clinton responded much like Schlesinger describes her husband. These examples illustrate the differences that we see between the candidates, and why the liberal and progressive democratic communities are supporting Senator Barack Obama.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Just what we need 8 more years of "Clinton generally repeats his mistakes"
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Exactly
The thought is unbearable
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. President Clinton gave in to the media with his Telecom Act of '96...
...and how did they repay him? With more of the same. Yet, he's forged alliances with those who tormented him the most (Murdoch, Scaife, et al). I agree with Mr Schlesinger about President Clinton not learning from his mistakes...

Recommended.:thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. His call to Ben Wattenberg
was curious. It came at a time when Wattenberg, a close friend of republicans like Newt Gingrich and Joe Lieberman, was working on his 1995 book "Values Matter Most." (In fact, both Gingrich and Lieberman's praise is found on the back cover of the book.)

Wattenberg did not show any respect for the Clintons in the book. He refers to Hillary as "a lady of the left, who was never called Hillary the Nice." He suggests she served as President Clinton's Secretary of Soviet Ideology. (page 243)

He held Bill Clinton in utter contempt, saying that the President is "a man who is tardy and indecisive; sometimes dissembling, fudging, and fibbing; seen increasingly at 'racy nightclubs' as stories about his extramarital sexual activity grow to legendary proportions." (page 245)

I do not think that President Clinton was likely to win Wattenberg over with his phone call.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. great ---another paranoid running for the president
thanks to all that have contributed to this thread .i never realized just how paranoid the clinton whitehouse was during those years..
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. n/t
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. K & R
:thumbsup:
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Ah...
thank you. Well done. :)
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. As I Read My Response To One Line.."My mother told me I should never make a speech when I am tired."
Was where have we heard that before? I noticed you referenced that same thought in your last paragraph.

There may be something to that old saying 'familiarity breeds contempt'. We know the Clintons so well we can now see right through them. His turn to the DLC view of things when pres was distressing as was that one world gov. business he was spouting, but we stuck by him. I can't see that that loyalty has been reciprocated and as I watch the senator progress I have had a sinking feeling that while she certainly is preferable to McCain, it still would be business as usual.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I find his reaction
to Schlesinger's joking about that to be interesting. I think it gives us a clear view of how they see other people, including those who have been helpful to them. I think the response to Bill Richardson makes sense in this context.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you for this great read
I love reading your stuff.
Peace and low stress.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Thank you.
I think the Schlesinger information is interesting and of value at this time in the primary.
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Sad Isn't It When Your Only Viable Hope Is For Someone Else To Do Badly?
“The longer she continues, the more chance Obama might slip up and make a mistake that turns the tide of the campaign. Clinton has made it clear she will not consider bowing out of the race until all of the states have concluded their voting”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080327/pl_nm/usa_politics_campaign_dc;_ylt=AuWG6fLNg1THtSJ98ekO0yWs0NUE


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. "She appeared alone onstage
in victory in Ohio -- and alone is the only way she can win the nomination, on the slim chance that it is still possible.

"Is it possible? The delegate count and the unfathomable rules of the Democratic Party say it probably isn't .... unless she resorts to tactics that will make her candidacy seem sleazy and conniving, a course of action that will surely be self-defeating in the end. One would hope that her saying Obama is not a Muslim 'as far as I know' on 60 Minutes was more the product of exhaustion than intent, but she could continue on the slimy path of innuedndo, raising questions about Obama's patriotism and provenance. ...."
-- Joe Klein; In the Arena: The Race Goes On; TIME; 3-17-08; page 27.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. "she could continue on the slimy path of innuedndo, raising questions about Obama's patriotism"
I wonder if it was before or after Klein said this, that Bill implied just that - questions about Obama's patriotism. If indeed that's how you took his words. I definitely got that impression.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I think that
former President Clinton intended to communicate his belief that Senator Obama was not a patriot in the same sense that Hillary Clinton and John McCain are. That is poor behavior for a democrat, and for a former president.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. K & R
As someone who defended President Clinton up and beyond the call in the 90s, I have to admit I feel very upset about how he is behaving since last fall. I feel very betrayed and duped for having lent my voice to his support then. I am thinking now I was very foolish then.

I vow I will never become so enamoured of another politician that I don't see their personality fault lines. I did that with Clinton. Thought he was the answer to all our problems and really let go of my objectivity completely. I like Obama. I very much admire Gore. But I will not place them on a pedestal of any kind.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. It has been
a strange few months. While I have always liked both Al Gore and Hillary Clinton more than Bill Clinton, I certainly respect much of what he did as president. I also try to keep in mind that it must be hard for him to be in the position he is in.

Though it is obviously very different, I'm reminded of when I used to box -- I enjoyed competing in the spotlight. Years later, when my son boxed, I got a lot of gray hair. Watching from the sidelines, even if you are "coaching," can be difficult.

This campaign is creating some unfortunate divisions. I prefer Senator Obama, but I still have as much respect for people like Wes Clark and Robert Kennedy Jr., as I did before they endorsed Senator Clinton. Other people associated with her campaign are viewed through different eyes. But I suppose that is part and parcel of what is to be expected in a struggle .... and this primary is as tough a fight as the general election will be.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. ahh
it's good to have you here H2O Man.

Always a well thought out OP.

Have you heard the Economy Speech yet? If so, any thoughts?

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I enjoyed listening
to Senator Obama today. I thought it was an interesting presentation. I note that some of the journalists who covered it picked up on Obama's focus on the November election. Some have speculated that Obama has picked up signals that party leaders are recognizing that he has won the primary, and will be trying to get Senator Clinton to accept that reality.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Is it available in text form?
I am concerned about BO's economic policies. The Chicago school is a strange place for democrats.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. Kicked
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. "What's the Difference?"
Paul de Man, one of the great literary critics of the last half of the 20th Century--and someone who write for collaborationist newspapers during World War II, I should note before someone reminds us-- wrote about the differences between grammar and rhetoric in his book Allegories of Reading. An exemplary instance of this difference occurred, according to de Man, in the most banal of places: an episode of All in the Family. As de Man describes it, "asked by his wife whether he wants to have his bowling shoes laced over or laced under, Archie Bunker answers with a question: 'what's the difference?' Being a reader of sublime simplicity, his wife replies by patiently explaining the difference between lacing over and lacing under, whatever this may be, but provokes only ire. 'What's the difference' did not ask for difference but means instead 'I don't give a damn what the difference is.' The same grammatical pattern engenders two meanings that are mutually exclusive: the literal meaning asks for the concept (difference) whose existence is denied by the figurative meaning. As long as we are talking about bowling shoes, the consequences are relatively trivial; Archie Bunker, who is a great believer in the authority of origins (as long, of course, as they are the right origins) muddles along in the world where literal and figurative meanings get in each other's way, though not without discomforts. But suppose that it is a de-bunker rather than a "Bunker," and a de-bunker of the arche (or origin), an Archie De-Bunker, such as Nietzsche or Jacques Derrida for instance, who asks the question 'What is the difference'--and we cannot even tell from his grammar whether he 'really' wants to know 'what' difference is or is just telling us that we shouldn't even try to fkind out. Confronted with the question of the difference between grammar and rhetoric, grammar allows us to ask the question, but the sentence by means of which we ask it may deny the very possibility of asking. For what is the use of asking, I ask, when we cannot even authoritatively decide whether a question asks or doesn't ask?"

I recount de Man's cleverness for two reasons: one is the "all in the Family" of the OP and the way it also seems to engender two meanings that are mutually exclusive. The other is that the Clinton campaign implicitly asks us the question, "what's the difference?"--a question whose grammar or rhetoricity must be held in abeyance. "What's the difference," that is, between Hillary and Bill Clinton; "What's the difference" between Sen Clinton and Sen Obama; "what's the difference" between supporters of the candidates; "What's the difference" between the truth of Bosnia and the lie; "What's the difference" between radically suspending logic and embracing it.

It is time now to embrace the question of difference as a question and answer by turning away from a politics that poses difference merely as rhetoric.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. You made my head hurt.
Edited on Fri Mar-28-08 07:45 AM by trof
Thinking is hard work.
I've gotten out of the habit.
Good post.
:thumbsup:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. What a great post!!!!!
:applause:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent work.
:thumbsup:
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Jeez, H2O Man, don't you get a little tired
of being so dead-on right all the time?

:kick: & R
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
27. Recommended
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
28. Insightful and on point, as usual...K&R n/t
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
29. K & R n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
30. Thank you, H2O...
This is really interesting and more patches added to the pattern that's slowing emerging(for some) from the Clintons.

Definetly quite a difference between Obama's reaction to his Pastor's past and influence and Hilary's reaction to her getting busted for the Bosnia lies especially when Sinbad tried to help her "remember" a couple of weeks or so ago.

Ironic, since if it weren't for our current m$$$m hilary would already be out, imo..and now bill and hilary have gone the route of the vast rw press to get out their message of smear on Obama.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
31. You know these historical posts are amazing
whether here or General Discussion

Thanks
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks for another good read! K and R
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
33. Recommended.
Schlesinger, a strong Clinton supporter in the 1992 election, thinks the president is loathe to get into fights. That is a bad trait in a leader, Schlesinger believes. "I think presidents, particularly presidents who want to change things, must recognize they're bound to get opposition. As they used to say about Grover Cleveland, 'We love him for the enemies he has made.' Franklin Roosevelt was not only the most loved president in this century, he was the most hated president of this century because he didn't try to please everybody."

It's natural for everyone, especially presidents, to want to be liked, but that just doesn't work if you live in the White House, observes the one-time White House aide.

"Clinton's a very bright man. He's got an impressive technical command of complicated issues. He's got great intellectual curiosity. He's got a natural eloquence and concern. I believe him to be a New Dealer at heart. Other things being equal, that's the kind of thing he would like to do. He would like to use government as a means of enlarging individual opportunity. But he goes into clinches too much when he's fighting. Last time I was in Arkansas someone told me, 'You know, we always used to say about Bill Clinton, it's better to be his enemy than his friend, because he treats his enemy better than he treats his friend.' There is some great desire to be liked."

Schlesinger sees Clinton as not that different from President Kennedy in terms of political philosophy, but sees a great difference in the operational styles of the two chief executives. He's not looking for a job--in fact, he's only been invited twice to the White House--but Schlesinger thinks the Clinton administration is not necessarily filled with the "best and the brightest."

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Profiles/People_Profile/0,2540,91,00.html
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. "There is some great desire to be liked."
Approval addiction can be hard to shake. I think it's key to both Bill Clinton's strengths and weaknesses. Indeed, it seems that his dalliances are the symptoms of a pathetic and adolescent habit to obtain approval in the most hard-wired and tactile way. Not to get all Freudian on his ass but ...

I've viewed Hillary with puzzlement from Day One of the Clinton Presidency. It's our inclination to regard the First Lady as a liberalizing influence on any President ... with the STARK exception of Barbara Bush. I'm inclined to add Hillary to the short list of spouses who stood to the ideological right of their husbands, if not in specific social policy ways, at least in her economic/corporate presumptions. It seems abundantly clear that Hillary's failure in addressing health care can be, even if somewhat simplistically stated, ascribed to a predisposition to regard the Captains of Industry as Wise Men in some Rockwellian America. With some notable exceptions (e.g. Maya Angelou), I noted that the Clinton Administration cluttered the "kitchen cabinets" with business folk, not social academicians and social workers.

For some reason, Bill didn't get his "approval fix" from his spouse. There's something more of an enabler than supporter in their (mutual) relationship. So, rather than be the wind in his sails facilitating a tack to the left, their relationship seemed to jibe more with the authoritarian right ... seeking, if not approval then less punishment, from the "harsh father figures" of industry.

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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. It is definitely a co-dependent relationship, IMO.
Through posts like Waterman's and various others who worked closely with the Clintons, I have come to revise my opinion of them both. They are a fascinating study and I find myself wondering, could it really be something as simplistic as wanting to be liked?

Could many of his mistakes, his poor choices in political allies and friends all be because he wanted approval? It makes a lot of sense, actually. Schlesinger argues, quite powerfully I think (if you read his published journals) that Clinton was actually a "New Dealer at heart."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Right.
And then you can take it to the next logical step: the angry reaction to those who they believe either should or do like them, who then disagree with them. This "Judas" business with Governor Richardson was okayed at a higher level than the person who peddled it.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Exactly.
Edited on Sat Mar-29-08 02:11 PM by Tatiana
When you frame things in the "search for approval" context, it is easy to understand why the Clintons (who have expressed their viewpoint through surrogate Carville) liken Richardson to a "Judas." (Bill) Clinton does not believe you can have a personal friendship or relationship with him and disagree with him at the same time. That is both a petulant and childish viewpoint, but it explains much. I actually think this goes back to his childhood and it would be interesting to know his opinion of Hillary vs. his mother Virginia (and whether there are any similarities between the two).
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psychmommy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
34. h2o man this is why i am here.
du used to be a place for me learn. i love your posts. i don't see enough of them anymore. i can't wait for the primaries to be over so the other thoughtful folks can share with us again. you are a sane voice in the wilderness-keep 'em coming.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
37. But...but...no flames?
Wow.
Is GD-P finally coming to its senses?
Is the long nightmare over?
And...what will they (we) talk about in the Lounge now?
Good 'un.
:thumbsup:
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
39. (cough)
:kick: 'Scuse me.
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
40. "....reform and take the (DLC) line...."
Edited on Fri Mar-28-08 10:36 AM by quiet.american
This is what sends chills through my spine about Hillary Clinton as president, vs. Barack Obama. And only a McCain presidency sends more chills through my spine than a Clinton/Bayh ticket. This is why it surprises me that Clinton has such passionate supporters here at Democratic Underground. A Dem candidate who was glad to have a fundraiser given for her by Rupert Murdoch. Who has enjoined the help of Richard Mellon Scaife? Good Lord. But, the DLC is not so far away from the credo of those men, is it? And that credo seems to be, as far as decent, liberal citzens go in this country, we can all take a long walk off a short pier. (That's the polite version.)
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
41. K & R-if I still could R!!!!
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