Nader says Kerry should go after Bush voters

[Cocoa]

he said it to George Stephanopoulos, leaving me scratching my head.

Also said that Kerry should go after union workers, leaving me wondering where Nader has been. Did he hear about the police officers union that is switching from Bush to Kerry? Did he notice all the union signs at Kerry rallies, and the number of appearances that Kerry has made with union leaders?

[Frances]

1. Nader is totally out of touch

There are so many ways he could help get rid of Bush. He could have formed a group like Moveon and then he would have had real clout. As it is, I don't want anything to do with the organizations he founded.

[JI7]

2. Nader campaign seems to be about giving advice to Kerry

most of nader's appearances are about what kerry should do to win the election.

[Padraig18]

3. I heard what he said, too.

What he said was that Kerry should go after the 8 million disaffected Dems who voted for Bush, and the 35% of union voters who voted for Bush--- and he's right.

[jobycom]

8. And when he does, Nader will claim that he's too moderate

Yes, Nader is right that Kerry needs those votes, but Gore needed those votes, too, and Nader blasted him as a corporate sell-out when he went after them. He'll do the same thing to Kerry.

Nader's a conman. I'm ashamed that I ever defended that crook.

[AP]

9. I'll bet he doesn't.

Everyone's paying enough attention to Nader to criticize him, but is anyone listening to what he's saying?

[jobycom]

12. So you think he'll admit he was wrong for running against Gore?

Because that's what he did to Gore. Is he now saying Gore should have gone after those voters? Or is this just his own divine special permission for Kerry?

When Nader is no longer running against Kerry, I'll listen to him with a little more faith. Until then, his actions scream louder than his words.

And, for the record, I'll take that bet. If Nader stays in the race, he will criticize Kerry for being to moderate.

[JI7]

14. it's true Nader does like Kerry and didn't like Gore

but also notice nader did not criticize clinton as he did gore. clinton had people in his administration keep in contact with nader and meet him at times. nader and kerry have known each other for decades and worked together. and kerry as presidential candidate is acknowledging nader by meeting him and saying how he wants to show his voters they should vote for him. al gore just totally ignored nader.

[AP]

17. Nader and Edwards have known each other for a long time too.

Nader said about two years ago that he has nothing but respect for the work Edwards did as a lawyer.

[JI7]

22. i kind of have an idea

of how or what issues nader thinks kerry should run on with his personal favorite vp choices (gephardt and edwards). i personally prefer edwards, but i can understand why he likes gephardt also. notice the rose garden wasn't an issue for him in wanting gephardt or the patriot act and iwr in supporting edwards.

[AP]

25. I believe Nader probably sees that there's a general devaluation of labor

in America (through NAFTA and the tax code, among MANY other things).

Since labor is the only thing people born without much capital have to trade on to get economic security, and since devaluing it is the way people with a lot of capital get even more capital, Nader probably ranks it a little higher than the IWR.

And if you rank protecting the value of labor and helping the middle class grow and accumulate economic security, you're going to think that Gephardt and Edwards are the best VP candidates.

[AP]

18. I have a few problems with the way Nader campaigned, but I don't have

a problem witht he fact that he ran.

Why are we self-hating liberals? Why do we blame Nader for Bush stealing almost 300,000 votes in FL?

[jobycom]

54. I don't

I don't have a problem with Nader running any more than I have a problem with any other candidate running. And I don't think he cost Gore the election. I've never said that.

But Nader did run, and he ran harder against Gore, clearly the most liberal/progressive/populist candidate in the last few decades, than against Bush. That reveals that Nader is more interested in ego than in ideals. He's a spoiled kid throwing a tantrum.

He fought for Bush. Which means he fought for everything that's happened. I'm not much impressed by the lip-service opposition he gives to peace and justice and labor, when his actions so opposed them.

[Monte Carlo]

4. Nader knows what he wants but has no idea how to get it.

The salvation of our 2 party system does not lie in a 3rd party. The dynamics of our system just won't support it.

Kerry is going to go after a lot of voters. Nader does not have any novel advice.

[jobycom]

5. So typical-- he's a complete hypocrite

People who support him have no idea what he's like. He complains about others taking corporate donations but his non-profit corporations are built on them. He's a multi-millionaire stock investor, yet he claims other politicians who make profits from corporations are corrupt. He claims to support unions, yet busts up unions in his own companies, claiming it's different because his are non-profit. He requires his employees to work double shifts, and feels that they should have to because they should be completely dedicated to his cause-- exactly the same excuse most corporations with horrible labor records use.

He'll do anything or say anything to appease his followers, and yet he is worse than any of the corporate bosses he criticizes. Why any liberal or progressive buys his crap is beyond me.

[Cocoa]

28. exactly

I usually don't call inconsistencies like this hypocrisy, but with Nader it's more than fair.

Apply Nader's own standards to Nader himself, and he falls apart.

[Kahuna]

31. What Nader wants is for the current Dems and Repukes to merge while..

he picks up the "progressive" wing.

[AP]

6. One of the most annoying thing about Nader hating is the knee-jerk desire

to criticize everything he says, even if it makes sense.

I consider myself an OK commentator on politics. I've said the exact same things that Nader just said at DU hundreds of times. I've said that the bulk of voters is in the middle, and you get way more bang for your buck going after voters in the center than you do trying to appease all the single issue voters to the far left who sometimes have incompatible litmus tests that cost you 10 votes in the middle for every one at the far left margin.

I've also said that union voters aren't always voting in their best economic interests and they vote on wedge issues.

When I say those things, you can find dozens of other DU'ers saying the same thing.

When Nader says them, he's an idiot.

I'm starting to think that Nader hating is really just a way to get liberals to hate themselves and doubt everything they believe in.

[jobycom]

10. AP, it's not the advice that's bad

It's the fact that Nader blasted Gore for going after these same voters in 2000. It's that we all know that when Kerry moves to the middle to pick up these voters, Nader will use that as a wedge to split of more leftists.

It isn't Nader's advice, it's his blatant hypocrisy.

[papau]

13. Well said

:-)

[JI7]

15. Nader didn't like Gore, but he likes Kerry

[jobycom]

55. Again, that's exactly what I hate about Nader

It's a game to him. He's not consistent, he's just a jackass playing ego games with dire consequences.

And if he likes Kerry so much, why is he running against him?

[AP]

16. You don't have to go after votes in the middle by being a corporate whore.

Why did Nader criticize Gore? How does Nader want Kerry to go after votes in the middle?

[jobycom]

56. Well

Those Democrats who voted for Bush are in the middle, and Nader is telling him to go after them, thus Nader is telling Kerry to go after moderate votes.

Why did Nader criticize Gore? Ego, is all I can figure. Nader is just as much a corporate whore as any other candidate. Corporations donate to Nader's non-profits, and Nader plays the stock market. Corporations are just as deep in his profits as Gore's.

You know why I really think Nader went after Gore? I think Nader was jealous. Most of what Nader claimed he wanted done, Gore was doing in Congress, and as VP. By bringing down Gore, Nader could move back into the limelight and destroy the competition. It may not have been a conscious motive on Nader's part, but it was a prime factor. That's just my opinion, based on listening to Nader's style of speech, his interviews, his actions and reactions.

Nader wrote an editorial in the Wall Street Journal, the most conservative spot on earth, in March of 2001, two months after Bush was inaugurated. In it, he praised Bush's corporate plans, saying they were hopeful. This after condemning Gore's corporate donations for the previous year. There is no consistency in such a man. He's all about himself.

[sandnsea]

19. Exactly

No matter what Kerry does, the left will spin it for their own purposes. And never have to answer to the depths Kerry has to or come up with real solutions that really measure up or that can appeal to enough people to get a candidate elected either. It's nauseating.

[AP]

20. What has Nader done so far that indicates he doesn't want Bush to lose?

It looks like he's not going to accept the Reform Party nom, so he probably won't be on any ballots.

All he does is try to get attention for ideas that hurt Bush way more than Kerry, and he's trying to give Kerry advice so he can get elected.

I sense a lot of paranoia among a very few Kerry supporters. I think it's obvious that there are a lot of RW'ers pretending they're liberals and trying to drive wedges in the far left, and I suspect that there are some left wingers who have no clue at all about how liberals get elected president. I see no reason to worry about either of them, and I also think it's pretty clear that Nader falls into neither category.

[Rowdyboy]

32. AP, you are usually a very sensible poster general but come on....

"I sense a lot of paranoia from a very few Kerry supporters"

Would you like me to post a poll here asking Democrats if they appreciate Nader's run? Its not a few paranoid Kerry supporters. Its the millions of us who were nauseous from Election Day 2000 until 12/10/00 when the Supreme anointed the Chosen One. We've all been through this once and have no desire to re-experience. My hearts not strong enough.

Basically all of Nader's senior staff from 2000 have deserted him. Are they just paranoid Kerry supporters?

"I think its obvious there are a lot of right-wingers pretending they're liberals and trying to drive wedges in the far left"

So all of us who feel that Nader cost Gore the election are "right-wingers"? Pretty broad brush don't you think? I've voted for every Democratic nominee since Richard Nixon and I can assure you I am no "right-winger pretending". That's beneath you.

"I suspect there are some left wingers who have no clue at all about how liberals have no clue at all about how liberals get elected president"

How does Nader's being in this race help in the effort to replace George Bush? All he can accomplish is drawing attention to himself, and split the progressive majority. Without Nader, Bush is toast. With Nader, we might not know until Christmas.

So either we're "right-wing pretenders" or clueless liberals if we don't appreciate Nader for fracturing the progressive vote?

Nader has been justifiably ostracized by the Democratic party in general. I see no reason not to follow their lead.

And the part about driving wedges in the far left? We're talking about the Democratic party, not the far left. You know better than to confuse the two.

If I misread what you're saying, I apologize. As I said, I value your outlook generally but this time..............

[AP]

47. I was talking very specifically about the phenomenon

where people can't tell who's hurting and who's helping Kerry and why, and lash out at the slightest criticism.

I appreciate that there's a larger set of Democrats who don't like Nader's run.

I still think that the right gains more from getting Democrats to be self-loathers (which is what I hear when people criticize Nader when he says things that are obviously true and sensible).

[Rowdyboy]

48. I agree with much of Nader's agenda myself

If he was running for the senate, I'd probably send him a small donation. But he's not. He voluntarily setting up a situation that could easily lead to a repeat of the disaster of 2000.

My goal (and that of many others) is simple: remove George Bush from the White House and erase his imprint from our democracy. I support anything that advances that goal and I can see no way whatsoever that a Ralph Nader run will help. In fact, it could very easily make that goal impossible.

Nader is being disingenuous when he says he'll draw votes from disaffected Republicans. Thats a joke and he knows it-they'll stay home, vote libertarian or constitutionalist-not for Ralph Nader.

The attention, the media exposure, the volunteer support he gets all comes from the same small base of activist progressives. We can't afford to split the attention of the American voter: give them too many choices and they'll just keep what they have.

The fact that I am furious with Nader's actions in this unnecessary race doesn't mean I disavow his progressive stands. I agree with Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders on many things, but I really don't want to see them running for president. I just don't see the "self-loathing" you do. What I see is people who are frightened that their government could be permanently stolen from them this year. They react badly to anything or anyone that enables that.

[AP]

49. You're presuming a motivation which I don't think the facts prove.

We just have different opinions.

[Rowdyboy]

50. Agreed....And done so civilly, I might add

Something seems offbase here....Are we really on DU in GD-2004?

[sandnsea]

36. Not paranoid, I'm FURIOUS

There was a post just a few days ago about Gepahrdt as VP and all the lefties went bonkers. I pointed out Gephardt's great record on alot of things the left supports, and I was lamblasted. Now Nader says Gephardt would be a great choice. Naderites are anti-war and Kerry is a bad choice because he voted for the war. Edwards and Gephardt are good choices even though they voted for the war and actually supported it more than Kerry ever did. Nader makes no damn sense at all. That's the point.

[JI7]

38. don't put nader in the same group as those on du

remember, many who are very liberal supported kerry. the problem is that many who support dean and/or kucinich try to make it seem as if THEY are the only liberals. if you ask, most on du who support kerry would see themselves as liberal. nader hasn't been speaking as many of those on du do. i would love to listen in on what kerry and nader talked about and i bet most of it had to do with issues like taxes, trade,environment and not iraq.

[sandnsea]

40. The voters are the same

The people who are going to vote for Nader are the same as the ones on DU. I've met them, that's who they are. If Kerry put Gephardt on the ticket, the Nader voters wouldn't listen to anything Nader said about it. They'd just rail against Kerry and vote Nader. There is no digging beyond the rhetoric, they just react and that's all.

[JI7]

41. yeah, i agree about the voters themselves

then it's them and not nader that's the problem. and some of them will not vote for kerry anyways. i liked nader's advice because it made sense. it's what i had been thinking in terms of how kerry could win also. many of those voters you mention are those who wont vote for kerry anyways. nader's advice was good because it was about how kerry can get people who really would consider voting for him to actually do so. these voters aren't going to complain about gep standing in a rose garden or edwards patriot act votes or kerry's iwr vote. for them it's about how they voted for bush because they thought he was a good guy or they didn't vote at all as they didn't feel any need to. but it turns out they got a bad deal with bush in office and have been hurt in ways and they probably will vote for kerry. gephardt and edwards can help in getting these voters because of how they defined themselves and their personal experience. kerry himself can probably get those voters also but you have to admit that edwards and gep having a different life experience could help.

[sandnsea]

42. Then why is he running????

He's supposedly an anti-war candidate with anti-war voters who is recommending pro-war V.P.'s? Because they're pro-union, which Kerry always has been too. But never mind that. Ah, they didn't vote for NAFTA, but they all support the same steps forward now. And Kerry has always tried to get better environmental and labor regulations in trade agreements, but don't pay attention to that.

But Clark or Dean, who were supposedly anti-war, would be okay with the Nader voters, even though they are both more free trader, pro-NAFTA people.

There is no reason in these positions, none at all, and it just drives me bonkers.

[JI7]

44. yes, i agree with that

but next time anyone says something about voting nader because kerry voted for iwr we can bring up how even nader wants someone who voted for iwr and patriot act and stood in the rose garden for vp. i'm thinking i might includein my sig line nader's quote on gephardt and edwards for vp and putting in parenthesis that both voted for iwr and patriot act.

did you see my greens for kerry thread i made about 2 days ago and how that sunk after 4 responses with 1 being my own ? the thing that annoys me is people who complain about kerry not doing anything ignore these things on purpose. i have figured out some look for ways to be negative about him and are not actually concerned about his stand on the issues.

[sandnsea]

45. I agree

I wasn't really arguing against you. I'm just not of the "woo the Nader voters" mindset. I'm of the, hit 'em with the damned facts square between the eyes, mindset. Probably isn't too surprising!

[jobycom]

57. He's running

When he says he isn't running, I'll stop caring what he does, though I will never respect or trust him again.

And all he tries to do is get attention for himself. C'mon, AP, look at the man for what he is, not what you wish he was. It's always about himself. He can mobilize a lot of press for Kerry or against Bush. He doesn't have to do it by running, or, if you are right, pretending to run. But it's such an ego boost for him to run. It's all about Nader. Even you said above that Nader didn't like Gore, so he opposed him. Gore was far more liberal than Kerry, and was closer to Nader's stated ideology than Kerry is. It's all ego for Nader. Gore didn't kiss his ring. Kerry shouldn't have.

[JI7]

24. but notice Nader isn't speaking the way many on du speak

nader likes gephardt and edwards for vp. on du gephardt's rose garden thing is a huge complaint and edwards of course voted for iwr and patriot act. i think we should not dimiss him right off. he did say that if you want to get rid of bush then vote for kerry and that kerry has a great record on the issues.

[sandnsea]

34. Hey, I agree

If Kerry chooses Gephardt, the left will go ballistic, even though Nader says Gephardt would be a good choice. And Kucinich votes for NCLB, doesn't introduce legislation to repeal ALL of the Patriot Act, puts democracy and security as a key component to his Iraq plan; but none of this gets any scrutiny. There's just absolutely no logical consistency to any of it, as far as I'm concerned.

[AP]

7. Also, after reading hundreds of JI7 and Padraig's posts, and getting a

sense of where they're coming from, and growing to appreciate their perspectives on a lot of disparate issues, I'm not surprised we share the same perspective on this.

[Padraig18]

11. Thank you!

:hi:

[zulchzulu]

21. St. Ralph should go after Martian voters

I bet they'd like him there.

[HawkerHurricane]

23. Where you get advice...

When worried about legal issues, I get my advice from convicted felons.

When worried about health care, I go to the hypocondriac.

And when I want to know how to win votes, I go to the guy who polled under 5%...

[AP]

26. You get legal advice from convicted felons?

[HawkerHurricane]

29. Sarcasm.

I'm sorry you missed it.

[AP]

46. So you do or you don't trust Nader's opinion

on politics?

[HawkerHurricane]

52. Does it matter?

Nader's a gadfly. Like all 3rd party candidates, he's trying to get 'his' issues on the table. So, if Kerry adopts Nader's position, how many votes does he gain? How many does he lose? In the past 24 years, Democrats win elections by convincing the middle. Nader's not in the middle.

[liberalron]

27. This should be a no-brainer.

Republicans should be asked if this is the Republican party that they joined.
They should be made aware of how harmful this Republican leadership is to their lives and that of their families; and to their future, and that of their parents, their children, their children's children, etc.
We all need to be informed by our Leaders, as to what really is our present situation, our future if we continue the current courses, and what it could be.
People need to be appealed to as parents, children, brothers and sisters, grandparents, grandchildren, aunts and uncles, neices and nephews, cousins and best friends.
But, by and large, the citizenry doesn't have the information needed to make responsible, realistic decisions. This is our responsiblity and our opportunity.

[Cocoa]

33. I actually agree, in a way

but it's a confusing contradiction, just as it was when Howard Dean said what he said about the Confederate Flag, at the same time he claimed to represent the Dem Wing.

[liberalron]

37. Therein lies the crux of the problem

Howard Dean was talking about the Confederate Flag. He had made the same statement before, once at a Democratic Party function where he recieved a standing ovation for it. They knew what he was saying. He was saying that we need to help these people understand who they should be, and not be, voting for and why.
In the campaign, however, it just became a "spin" with which to undermine and mislead, while avoiding discussing the real issue.
We cannot depend on the Major Media, we have to find ways to bypass them and go straight to the people, with factual information.

[liberalron]

39. Opps.

missed the not. "Howard Dean was NOT talking about the Confederate flag"

[Kahuna]

30. Nader is full of shite. That's his plan to take over the Democratic voter

while the current Democratic party merges with the repukes. I hate this guy. Right now is no time for his games and machinations. :puke:

[MAlibdem]

35. Ok, I think Nader is proving to be malable...

We should USE him in this election. Let him in the debates IF he promises NOT to attack Kerry, and only Bush. Push the spectrum to the left, Kerry thus preceived as moderate, Bush as radical rightist.



Also,

Kerry is at Fenway today, going to watch the BoSox destroy the Blue Jays.

[JHBowden]

43. Nader must be senile.

There is no other way to explain this guy's behavior lately.

[union_maid]

51. You took the words out of my mouse

I'm reading all this and having read the contradictory things that Nader has already said and I'm thinking...he's crazy. That's not so far fetched, you know. Just because he's been smart and effective doesn't mean he's stable. He's also always been a very odd duck and sometimes being an odd duck is a precursor to being nuts.

[Andromeda]

53. I really think Nader is delusional...

He's not in touch with reality. I'm wondering if he has the beginning of Alzheimers. Behavior is usually affected first, you know, when Aunt Mable starts acting fruity and streaks through her neighborhood carrying a bowl of water on her head.

[Nicholas_J]

58. He's not that nuts

recent polls of registered republicans indicate that 20 percent of them are no longer comitted to voting for Bush. That means they could either choose Nader, Kerry, or not vote. In any case this takes votes away from Bush, and leads to a Kerry win.