debunking 'flip-flop' propaganda!

[Paradise]

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

something our "leader" is sorely lacking! :smoke:

[rogerashton]

1. It would be nice to have a president

who thinks things through before plunging into a morass like Iraq.

[radwriter0555]

2. remind them this is the same spin rove used the last time... that he can't

even come up with new lies...

[Terry_M]

3. I don't think Rove is saying

that Kerry has two opposed ideas in mind at the SAME time... What they're saying is that he has one opinion one day, and the opposite one the next.

[Sparkly]

6. And it's all a lie.

Examples: Kerry's position on the Patriot Act has been thoroughly consistent. Kerry's position on what he would/wouldn't vote for regarding the $87 billion supplemental bill was clear. They lie like rugs.

I'm sure they'll come up with more, because it's easy to go back decades and say to ANYone, "Back then, you said this and now it's that!" So there will be some true changes of mind, I'm sure. The thing is, it's becoming more clear every day how important it is to be able to change strategies when circumstances change. Otherwise, we get painted into a corner and end up having to punt badly, like the Chimp is doing.

Chalabi is good, Chalabi is bad. We don't need the UN, we do need the UN. Iraq is about protecting ourselves from WMDs, Iraq is about liberating the people. We trust Joe Wilson, Paul O'Neill and Richard Clarke; Joe Wilson, Paul O'Neill and Richard Clarke are crazy people. These are HUGE changes of position, all with huge consequences. If Kerry is a "waffler," what's Chimp?

[Paradise]

10. Two giant Belgian Waffles! :) n/t

[KC21304]

8. And when he is saying that Rove is a

God Damn liar. Bush has not carried through on what he said he would do in regards to going to war, No Child Left Behind, The Patriot Act and every other thought he ever had pounded into his head by his handlers.

[Paradise]

11. oh well, i tried. :) n/t

[forgethell]

4. But how

does that opinion debunk anything? Not saying the statement is wrong, just that it doesn't prove one thing or the other about John Kerry and flip-flopping. Also, you may have noticed, most voters do not care about whether the candidate is intelligent, but where he stands on the issues. Aboaut which most individuals know where they stand and do not "flip-flop".

[Paradise]

12. the biggest thing was his changing his mind

on the war for which the reasons were later found to be fraudulent!
as for the quote not being appropo... oh well, i tried :shrug:

[Monte Carlo]

5. I think the 'flip-flop' label isn't about accuracy, it's about the effect

The effect that it has on Kerry, and that it's something the entire party can get behind to attack Kerry with. Whether or not its accurate doesn't matter, look at Clinton. They made up stuff about him on a daily basis, but it still had an effect.

[Darranar]

7. So doublethink is a sign of first-rate intelligence? n/t

[ArkDem]

9. Just what I was thinking.

With that quote for a guide I guess politicians are much smarter than everybody else.

[Paradise]

14. i tried. :) n/t

[Paradise]

13. no, the ability to re-think your position is.

the quote didn't quite make it, but i tried. :)

[Darranar]

15. I understand what you mean...

I just disagree with the quote.

I agree that open-mindedness and re-thinking is something to be admired. The question is whether a politician changing his position is changing it because his personal opinion changes, or because he is trying to keep in sync with political considerations.

[Paradise]

16. oh, now i get it. thanks.

pandering is neither welcome nor appreciated. :hi:

17. Try this

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

& regarding logic, if that statement is true or Fitzgerald's, it does not mean that the negative the way you couched it is true.

[monchie]

18. Accusations of "flip-flopping" are cheap and almost always dishonest...

Any politician can be accused of "flip-flopping," for 2 reasons:

1. Conditions change. For example, what might be a pragmatic, appropriate approach to the Iraq situation today could very well be unworkable and inappropriate by next week, because of Event A or Event B. A competent leader has to be flexible--i.e., prepared to "flip-flop"--in order to respond to events intelligently.

2. "Flip-flopping" is integral to the legislative process of a democratic republic. Often there will be multiple versions of a particular bill, and some versions may contain a deal-breaker amendment that a particular legislator cannot accept. So, a legislator might heartily support one version, and votes for that bill, but it's defeated. Later on, another version of the same bill, but with a deal-breaker amendment, gets to the floor, and the same legislator votes against it. Is the legislator "flip-flopping"? Of course not, but a dishonest politician--say, someone with the last name Bush--will often call it that in a campaign ad.

When the Bush junta tries to smear Kerry with the "flip-flop" label, they cynically count on voters to not be knowledgeable about how democracy works. Democracy depends on both types of "flip-flops": the flexible executive responding quickly to changing conditions, and legislators exercising their best judgement in voting for and against various versions of bills.

In fact, almost immediately after the Bush campaign started running their "flip-flop" smear ads against Kerry, one of the writers over at the Daily Kos came up with a list of about 20 Bush "flip-flops" just off the top of his head. IMHO, that list was just as dishonest as the Bush junta's accusations against Kerry, and the author probably knew that. But it was a very good demonstration of just how easy it is to accuse a politician of "flip-flopping."

So how does Kerry respond to this kind of smear? Frankly, I don't know. Being just as dishonest as the Bush regime and using their own "flip-flop" list against Bush most likely wouldn't help Kerry and might very well hurt him. It would look like two kids having a name-calling game. Explaining the "flip-flops" wouldn't work either, not in a world that lives on the 10-second soundbite and not the complicated 2-minute explanation.

If anyone has any ideas on how to counter the "flip-flop" smear, I'd love to hear them.

[Paradise]

19. i believe you just did, in your first three paragraphs. :)

the public needs to be educated in the ways of congress and legislation.
i.e., your reply in letters to the editors. are you up for it? :)