Florida superdelegates will apparently be combative at the convention. Not eager to compromise.

[madfloridian]

I was just getting ready to post this without too much rancor, but then I read this post by WesDem about Clinton finance people being accusatory toward Dean for what these two states did.

Now I am really ticked off.

I am tired of the Florida superdelegates and their nastiness toward the party, toward Dean, and toward reconciliation of any kind. They do not intend to let up.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz is being very combative lately. For a long time Bill Nelson was taking the role of being pushy and angry. Now Debbie WS appears to be assuming the role of the angry one.

It angers me that she said this. I have been hearing some Democrats around here lately sound like it might not be so bad if they get to take part in the convention...that even a 50 50 split might not be so bad.

Watching the video from Anderson Cooper 360, I realized fully that this will not end until convention. Wasserman Schultz is the national co-chair of the Clinton campaign, and she is very very angry.

Right after the Florida delegation met with Howard Dean on Wednesday, she issued this statement that made my blood boil:

Debbie Wasserman Schultz, a Clinton supporter, said Dean's tone was much less combative than it had been. "He's finally realized it's counterproductive to our goal of electing the next president of the United States to continue to insist on punishing the state," she said.
Schultz speaks out

Combative? Florida Democratic leaders have been so combative they have made it uncomfortable for Dean to even come to Florida. One compared him with Cartman on South Park. Bill Nelson even said that Floridians may not vote for the nominee. Combative?

She went on Anderson Cooper's show Wednesday night after the meeting, and oddly enough she first gave the impression they would cooperate with the Obama campaign.

The video from Wednesday night on Anderson Cooper 360.. Wasserman Schultz and former DNC chairman, David Wilhelm, an Obama supporter.

Video of Wasserman Schultz and Wilhelm



She was then very "combative". She is getting that way more and more. But first she sounds like they would be ok with a 50 50 split.

From the transcript.

COOPER: So is 50-50 OK for you?

SCHULTZ: You know, I think we're at the point now where we've determined that we're going to ensure that the delegation gets seated, and then we've got to let some more voters weigh in on what the outcome is going to be and get a clearer picture on this nomination process.

Not a no, not a yes. But the rest of the interview she really gets huffy.

COOPER: David, on the Obama side, is 50-50 OK with Obama?

DAVID WILHELM, FORMER DNC CHAIRMAN: I'm not an agent for the campaign, but that -- that sounds fair to me. A 50-50 split would mean that both -- I'm in Michigan tonight. Both Michigan and Florida would have their delegation seated. That's definitely the best thing for the party. It's something that Senator Obama has wanted to do from the get-go.

WILHELM: And in the context of elections that were run in violation of Democratic National Committee rules, a 50-50 split would mean the delegations are seated, but they will have no impact on the overall outcome of the race. And that seems like a -- a compromise that Solomon would be proud of.

SCHULTZ: Anderson, I can tell you that our delegation is united against a 50-50 split. That includes Obama supporters, as well as Clinton supporters, and our members that have not taken a position. A 50-50 split makes absolutely no sense. There are 1.7 million voters that went to the polls on January 29. We had a record turnout, and whoever the nominee is needs to be selected by Democrats from all 50 states who weighed in. A random 50- 50 split makes absolutely no sense and would be unfair and would disenfranchise voters in Florida.

COOPER: But with that kind of language, then, how do you get a compromise? I mean, what's the solution? Dean said no one but the candidates themselves are going to be able to come up with a deal.

Florida Democratic superdelegates, the big shots in Florida, are not going to let this thing rest. Even the ones who support Obama are refusing to put the country and the party first. They are putting their own state first.

I just read an article about some superdelegates who are new to congress. They are being threatened by their constituents that if they endorse the wrong person they will not vote for them. That is why many superdelegates are not speaking up. People are so effectively divided that there is no common sense.

If Florida continues to make waves, even on the same day as the meeting with the DNC....then it will affect all of us. The blame has been spread around and shuffled around until it is almost impossible to see the truth.

If one state continues its goal to put itself first, we will end up with a big mess. We will get the country we deserve.

Stand your ground, Howard Dean.

[HockeyMom]

1. Throw them OUT

I really cannot stand this state. I couldn't before I lived here and still cannot.

[roguevalley]

36. They break the rules and now we all pay. Fuck this.

[DJ13]

2. Its a real shame that Clintons people dont realize.......

......that winning at all costs actually has cost them the election.

[Zachstar]

3. I agree Dean needs to end this once and for all.

He needs to say. "Ok enough debates, you broke the rules and now you are harming the party. So 50/50 and any delegates that do not like that can stay home."

I already expect FL to be fully red in the GE. That will happen regardless at this point. So why the hell are we wasting time with this?

50/50

[madfloridian]

19. It would be nice....but it is not his call to make. He does not have that power.

.

[Cali_Democrat]

4. Wasserman Schultz looks like Medusa

At least she's as evil as Medusa.

[Divine Discontent]

28. I find myself really disliking her lately... that's too bad, she has potential but she's kinda

shriek-y and annoying with her choices of late. :(

[youngharry]

35. Debbie Wasserman

It is time to throw Debbie under the bus. Let's find someone to run against herin a Primary.
Any suggestions, Madfloridian?

[Dr.Phool]

38. Is Dizzy Debbie going to endorse a repuke again this year?

Somebody should ask her this. I know that you've got 2 real "winners" running for Florida's 5th district seat this year. But in '06, when you had a decent candidate running, Weaselman-Schlitz endorsed the Republican in the race. Another one of her repuke "friends", Ginny Brown-Waite.

If anybody decides to run against this piece of shit in the primary, I'll donate the first $500.

[40ozDonkey]

43. Isn't Ginny BW the shitwizard who called Puerto Ricans "foreigners"?

Good job, Debbie. Thanks for all you do.

Why can't we get a real Democrat to run against her?

[MaineDem]

5. I have one problem with many of the superdelegates - the Congressional ones

For most of the time they care squat about the Party. Now all of a sudden they care - they really really care. :eyes:

How many of them even know what their Delegate Selection Plan looks like? How many of them take the time to find out what's going on in the DNC? How many of them even know what's going on in their state Parties?

Now that they have this little part in the process they're jumping right in as if they had anything to do with the hard work that goes into it.

Now I'll admit this isn't the case for all of them but I'm willing to bet it's more than just a few.

[Ron Green]

6. Florida again. I'm keepin' track.

If it's not some hideous crime or local malfeasance, it's something that endangers the whole country and the world. Jesus. Can't it be sawn off and allowed to float away?

[madfloridian]

9. More need to keep track. I don't think people realize the impact

this state is going to have. Not a good one either. They won't quit. They won't back down.

Something has been very wrong all along about this primary thing. There was a reason. I know it deep inside, I just can't quite make the connection to prove it.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

40. ...

While I like parts of Oregon, I have to ask: do you think that Oregon somehow contributes more to this country then Florida? You guys are are after all rank 26 in Gross State Product while we are rank 4. Losing Florida would be similar to having Italy or Spain as part of our country and then losing them. Your homeless people in Portland do have a shinny disposition though, I'll give you that.

[davepdx]

59. I don't think we are in a situation where we want to keep score

over which state does what better. There are a number of areas where Oregon leads Florida, most certainly. But we are all in this together. We all have to work together to produce the best outcome possible. Sometimes there are difficulties getting everything coordinated to do that and that is where the frustration comes from.

I'm thinking of a baseball analogy where the batter is at the plate and the pitcher has just released the ball. In order to hit the home run the batter has to coordinate every part of his body. Every time the ball approaches the plate the batter drops his left hand to scratch his balls. Guess what happens? It results in a missed opportunity to knock it out of the park.

I don't think that Florida has to be "sawn off and float away" as Ron said. But I do wonder why it keeps scratching its balls.

Understand that I am only trying to be funny here. I was born in Florida and lived my first 35 years there. I have a many friends and fond memories there. I fully empathize with madfloridian's frustration about Debbie Wasserman Shultz's message and demeanor and the effects of these on the process.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

72. re: I don't think we are in a situation where we want to keep score

I'm not trying to argue about which state is better, just putting things in perspective for one of the many Florida bashers. In 2000 we were the ones who got screwed out of our vote not you, and it's not because voters were too incompetent to vote, its because the supreme court stole it from us. This time around the democratic party is having a run at it. I don't know about you, but having my vote stolen by external forces gets me a little peeved.

The rules used by the credentials committee to disenfranchise our state are easily interpreted as against the principles set forth by the Charter of the Democratic Party of the United States (maybe some of you should try reading it at least once). Even if one could except the rules, the recommended punishment set forth in said rules is different. The rules were not enforced evenly on all parties infringing on the rules. The minimum penalty set forth in the rules was not enforced on Iowa, New Hampshire, or South Carolina (maybe some should read the credentials committee rules at least once).

When it comes down to it, the DNC has been moronic over this episode and will pay for it dearly in November if they don't flat out reverse their decision and publicly apologize. They have the power to do so within the letter of the rules, but they chose not to. People from other states can bitch and moan all they want, call names, and try to belittle us but come November its our vote you need. We are the dominate swing state and we are worth a lot of attention and we deserve respect. Anyone who calls themselves a democrat but would argue in favor of another state losing their vote is a joke.

[davepdx]

77. I can attest to the horrible punch card voting devices

used in Palm Beach County. I complained about what we now know as "hanging chads" each and every time I voted (1976-1985) except for the 1st time as I didn't notice the problem at the time. I can really appreciate the anger of Floridian's about the 2000 election. I also agree 100% about the Supreme Court's appointment of Bush. I don't think there is a Democrat that doesn't feel screwed about that.

I do have to disagree about your thoughts on the rules not being enforced. I addressed this issue in another post after doing research on the topic.

In mid 2006 the DNC set a schedule for the primary season. Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina were scheduled before Super Tuesday. SC asked for and received a waiver from the DNC to hold their primary on a Saturday because they had a state history of voting on Saturday. The SC primary was moved up 3 days to accomodate their tradition.

When Florida and Michigan stepped ahead in the sequence of the already decided, Iowa and New Hampshire each asked for and were granted a waiver from the DNC to hold their caucus and primary earlier because Florida and Michigan had jumped ahead of Super Tuesday without approval. The moves by Iowa and New Hampshire were done to keep their voting sequence.

I don't think that the DNC has been moronic because the three states you mentioned played by the rules by asking for and receiving waivers to make their date changes. They didn't jump ahead in line without approval like Florida and Michigan did.

Madfloridan has documented this quite well here and here. Take a look at the first video in the second link.

If you want to be upset I'd suggest being really be upset at the Democrats in the Florida legislature. They're the ones who royally screwed the works for Florida voters. Sen. Jeremy Ring (a Democrat) from South Florida was a co-sponsor of the the bill that called for the early primary.

In Ring's words: "If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."

The Florida legislature voted 115 to 1 to move up the primary. If the Democrats in the Florida legislature had in any way protested the move by voting against the bill then the DNC would have allowed the delegates to be seated. Instead, the Florida Democrats in the legislature condoned the early voting which created the fiasco.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

81. re: I can attest to the horrible punch card voting devices

I've already explained my dissatisfaction with many of people involved on all side in many threads on this forum. There is plenty of blame to go around. I hold less contempt for Florida Democrats, quite frankly because they don't represent me. There is not one of them that represents my state house or senate district. In Florida they have no power. The rules were against the spirit and the principles set forth in the charter of the democratic party so they should have been invalid to begin with. Democrats nation wide are suppose to take it upon themselves to find a way for their state to get a voter verified paper trail (which they did). Florida Democrats wrote a bill that didn't include the primary date move but had the provisions for paper trail and e-voting ban but a veto by the governor was threatened if no date movement was included. The democrats introduced an amendment to the bill that was to move the primary date back even though they had no power. I understand you want to scapegoat them but the fact is only the DNC has the power to inflict the punishment that occurred. It is within the DNC's power to wave the rules if need be. They did this for Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. The 3 previous states mentioned while they did get a waiver are still in violation of a rule witch holds no exceptions. The credentials committee decided to toss the rules out for them. Obviously not everyone is playing by the same rules. Rules are broken to gain advantage. When you exclude Florida and Michigan, who gains the advantage. Who would rather have us disenfranchised?

[davepdx]

85. I wasn't trying to place blame but rather make a correction

The intention of the DNC was to have Iowa, New Hampshire and 1 or 2 other states that have met certain criteria (racial and ethnic diversity; geographic diversity; and economic diversity including union density). See page 9 of the pdf. http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/de68e7b6dfa0743217_hwm6bhyc4.pdf">The Rules were drawn up with the intention of these states having their primary/caucus/convention prior to the first Tuesday in February. Florida and Michigan jumped ahead in the line and that was not within the intent or spirit of the rule. Providing waivers to the 3 states was appropriate.

I believe (please correct me if I am wrong) that Reg. 2.9 (Amendments to Plans) of the DNC Regulations of the Rules and Bylaws Committee gives the Bylaws Committee the authority to allow for "Technical amendments are those changes that do not substantively change the delegate selection process and do not impede participation in the process." The 3 states in question meet that criteria as far as I can see as their positions in the sequencing was in line with the original intent of the rules.

It appears to me that the DNC and the 3 states in question were playing by the rules.

I do sympathize with you that you don't have any Dem's representing you in the legislature so you don't have anyone to complain to directly. It is really a crappy situation that the Dem's in Florida find yourselves in. No matter how the situation is eventually resolved there are going to be some very unhappy people.

[bunnies]

7. frigging hell.

They're lucky they even get to go at all! Now this? What about all those who DIDNT vote because they were told their vote wouldnt count? How many law suits will there be post-convention?

Great strategy. :grr:

[madfloridian]

8. Watch video of 360. You need to see the "combative" tone.

Nothing ever has angered me so much as this whole situation has. They thumb their noses at Dean, at the party, they don't care that they hurt their own state...they just don't give a damn. The video shows the anger that the transcript does not show.

[OzarkDem]

47. Voting for Clinton is no excuse to have your vote taken away

and that's what this boils down to now. A resolution to this situation is being stonewalled because Obama didn't win there. His campaign has been disgraceful in the way they've conducted themselves. It will come back to hurt him in the end.

[SwampG8r]

57. hey floridian?

is there a compiled list of DLC elected officialshere in florida?
im tired of talking about them and want to start working to end their reign here in florida
they need to be removed from office and replaced or they will spend the next 4 years kneecapping president obama to help her make another failed run in 12

[joshcryer]

10. I told you mad, but you don't listen. I said once they got in the doors they'd be "loud."

They'd have their voice heard. That's why the Credentials Committee will seat them for the nomination.

But the SDs should decide this thing long before then.

[madfloridian]

13. They will be seated, not counted toward the nominee.

"After Dean's initial remarks, Bernard Bergreen, a Hillary bundler, rose and said that Dean's address left out any discussion of Michigan and Florida, which was the critical bone of contention between the two campaigns.

Dean said that in his view, the question could be settled only after the primaries had finished in June, and after the superdelegates had made their decision"

http://www.observer.com/2008/clinton-donors-press-dean-fifth-avenue-bundler-summit

You confuse me because you often just repeat what I say and then tell me I am wrong. :shrug:

[joshcryer]

17. Yes, I think the SDs will decide long before the convention.

Which is why all this blundering is astonishing to me.

[dogday]

18. My concern is both Florida and Michigan at the convention..

I hope they can contain themselves at the convention, but I suspect trouble will ensue....

[JVS]

11. Well maybe they'll not just be not seated, but also ejected.

[joshcryer]

12. That would be epic.

Just on grounds of absurdity. :)

[madfloridian]

14. I have never seen such anger and hatred. From WesDem's link.

http://www.observer.com/2008/more-clinton-donors-versus-dean

The comments here are shocking. There is no reasoning with them, there is no common sense. It is just hatred toward Dean and the DNC because two states broke the rules on purpose.

I just want to cry. We could have have it all this year. Now we won't...because someone feels entitled.

I feel sick. Read the comments.

[joshcryer]

16. You don't think they're tired of the crap they've been getting?

Dean was wise on this one on allowing them into the convention to be seated. He saw that the hate was too much and that unifying the party is the more important goal.

Don't worry, Hillary will still lose.

I don't know why you should even care about this since she will still lose.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

79. 5 States broke the rules... 2 were punished more severely then the rules recommended...

[madfloridian]

84. That is a lie.. Only two broke the rules. The others got permission.

Plus they were already in the pre-window.

I can not believe the lies and the spin that the Hillary campaign is spreading.

She is using those two states as tools to win.

Shame on her.

[madfloridian]

15. This is bullshit.

Dean can not resolve the Fl and MI issues himself. It is not in the rules that way.

The Clinton campaign is going to pressure until there is unresolvable anger. By telling Dean to resolve it, they are taking away Obama's rights in the matter.

Dean is on ABC's This Week Sunday. He sure has courage.

http://www.observer.com/2008/howard-dean-talks-hassan-nemazee-part-2

"I followed up with Clinton campaign finance chair Hassan Nemazee about that summit of big Clinton and Obama donors last night, and he told me that there was a bit of an epilogue to the spirited exchange he had with DNC chairman Howard Dean.

"He did call me," Nemazee said. "We did have a lengthy and a productive and constructive conversation regarding the issues that I had raised and the role that he could and hopefully will play in resolving the Florida and Michigan issue."

Nemazee said that he told Dean, "It is unrealistic to believe that the Clinton and Obama campaigns are going to come by themselves to a resolution on this matter. They are either unwilling to do so or incapable of doing so. There is a real desire on the party's part for this to be resolved. You as the chair, have to take a leadership role. And he recognized that."

Stacie Paxton, a DNC spokeswoman, confirmed that the call took place and said that it was a positive conversation.

Referring to Dean, she said, "He's been working to seat Michigan and Florida delegates and will continue to do so"

Dean just met with FL to say they had rooms and would be seated.

BUT now they want him to break the rules and let them count.

Maybe Dean is trying to make too nice to save the party. Maybe the Clinton's don't want the party saved.

[4themind]

62. See this is the issue

If hillary takes this all the way to the convention he's going to HAVE to make a decision, in so far in the 25 people that he appoints to the credentials committee (and who people,rightly or wrongly will hold him accountable for). For the sake of dissuading other states from doing a similar action, I bet he's praying that obama wins this thing regardless. He may have wished he kept his mouth closed until the primaries are over, out of deference for those who HAD waited. THEN discuss the fate of those who hadn't (or what he'd been saying in previous weeks, that he has no direct control. He's sending out some mixed signals to a degree with this personal commitment on his end (that I haven't seen him make until now) I also hold out little hope that the two parties will agree, untill one of them no longer has anything to gain by doing so

[madfloridian]

74. I disagree. Both states need to be at the convention. No matter what.

But the votes of their delegates toward the nominee is another matter.

It would be more than divisive to not have them there.

The two states have done a great job of making themselves look like fools....and I think Dean is doing all he can do right now.

[4themind]

80. Well then I concede...

that I didn't seperate "seating"(which I don't think anyone has a problem with) from "voting"(where most debate seems to be) in his statement, we'll see what happens I guess.

[madfloridian]

82. Here you go...here is what Dean meant. Clinton fundraisers attacked him

during a joint meeting with the Obama campaign and its financial backers.

It was a cheap shot.

http://www.observer.com/2008/more-clinton-donors-versus-dean

After Dean's initial remarks, Bernard Bergreen, a Hillary bundler, rose and said that Dean's address left out any discussion of Michigan and Florida, which was the critical bone of contention between the two campaigns.

Dean said that in his view, the question could be settled only after the primaries had finished in June, and after the superdelegates had made their decision.

At that point Clinton campaign finance chair Hassan Nemazee spoke up. He said Dean's response sounded to him as if the DNC chairman were "essentially trying to kick the can down the road" and that the chairman was not exhibiting the type of leadership one would expect. Nemazee said that since the campaigns obviously could not reach a solution on their own before June, Dean's argument amounted to passing the buck.

Dean then responded, heatedly, that in his experience, those who sought the intervention of party leadership were motivated by their own particular agendas. And that was not the sort of leadership he intended to provide.

Dean offered to seat them, but the delegation can not be done by him. It will be done by both candidates or the credentials committee.

[madfloridian]

20. Playing financial hardball....a tactic by FL and by Clinton's big donors here.

But also her big donors threatened the DCCC as well. It is all quite legal and aboveboard. They say do what we want or we want our money back....but it is disgusting.

Clinton donors threatening party

"But a brouhaha has erupted over recent comments made by Pelosi on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos", when Pelosi, who will chair the Democratic National Convention, seemed to give a boost to the campaign of Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., by saying "If the votes of the superdelegates overturn what's happened in the elections, it would be harmful to the Democratic Party."

Taking umbrage, a list of big Democratic donors who support the campaign of Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., have written a letter to Pelosi (subsequently released to the press) pointing out that "Several states and millions of Democratic voters have not yet had a chance to cast their votes" and arguing "None of us should make declarative statements that diminish the importance of their voices and their votes. We are writing to say we believe your remarks on ABC News This Week on March 16th did just that."

Then the donors --
Marc Aronchick,
Clarence Avant,
Susie Tompkins Buell, S
im Farar,
Robert L. Johnson,
Chris Korge,
Marc and Cathy Lasry,
Hassan Nemazee,
Alan and Susan Patricof,
JB Pritzker,
Amy Rao,
Lynn de Rothschild,
Haim Saban,
Bernard Schwartz,
Stanley S. Shuman,
Jay Snyder,
Maureen White and Steven Rattner --

reminded Pelosi that they have given generously to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which helps fund Democratic House races."

And they threatened Dean about the FL and MI delegates. A very threatening bunch.

In an interview with Election Central, venture capitalist Alan Patricof, a member of Hillary's finance committee and one of the Democratic Party's most influential fundraisers, said that he'd privately urged Dean to do more to get the Florida and Michigan delegations seated -- something that's crucial to the Hillary camp's hopes of closing the gap with Obama.

"I've expressed to Dean my feeling that it's critical that this matter be resolved on a timely basis," Patricof says. "The voters in Florida and Michgan cannot be disenfranchised."

"He's got to exercise some leadership, and the sooner, the better," Patricof continued. "This is a party issue. We cannot afford to alienate this large a voting population in two very important states.

And he is not the only one threatening Dean.

Pushing to seat the Florida delegates, at least one top Clinton fund-raiser, Paul Cejas, a Miami businessman who has given the Democratic National Committee $63,500 since 2003, has demanded Democratic officials return his 2007 contribution of $28,500, which they have agreed to do.

“If you’re not going to count my vote, I’m not going to give you my money,” said Mr. Cejas, who was the United States ambassador to Belgium from 1998 to 2001.

Christopher Korge, a Florida real estate developer who is another top fund-raiser for Mrs. Clinton, held an event last year in his home that brought in about $140,000 for the national party, which was set aside in a special account for the general election battle in Florida. But he told committee officials this week that if Florida’s delegate conundrum was not settled satisfactorily he would be asking for the money back.

“If we do not resolve this issue,” Mr. Korge said, “I think it’s safe to say there will be a request for a return of $140,000.”

[Forkboy]

21. If it wasn't for people like you I'd pull a Bugs Bunny and saw the state off from the rest of us.

:)

[sudopod]

22. It's kind of like that time Canada went on strike.

What strike, you say?

Exactly.

[MercutioATC]

23. Wasserman's voice might be annoying, but she annunciates better than anybody I've ever heard.

Damn, that woman is clear.


Speech characteristics aside, this isn't a real issue, it's a feel-good problem.

MI and FL broke the rules. Id the DNC lets them get away with it, there's no disincentive to everybody breaking the rules. However, most people are too dumb to realize this and just own up to the punishment, so the DNC feels a political obligation to find a way to seat the delegates...just so a bunch of idiots don't stop putting the checkmark next to the "D".

Dr. Dean has handled this the best way he could, IMO. It'll be up to the winning nominee and the party preserves both its stated desire to seat the delegates and the need to enforce the rules.

[4themind]

63. Amen

there are going to be issues coming from this that extend beyond this primary,and hardly anyone is publicly giving consideration to it and the reason why they're not is because the Florida/MI super delegations are(imo)fearful of facing the wraith of their constituents for what THEY enabled, or went along with. I hope obama wins this thing in PA, if only for the sake of party unity, because this is like a boxing sparing session, where an outside group jumps in with knives.

[crankychatter]

24. we should accept a Soviet style pseudo-election as legitimate OR ELSE?

WTF is WRONG with Clinton supporters?

have they LOST THEIR DAMN MINDS?

[crankychatter]

25. and ONE more thing-WHY do the media not confront this CRAP?

Is this one of those Military-Industrial complex... lead up to the Iraq War, media blackout things?

serious question here...

are we mushrooms? what IS EXACTLY at stake here?

[madfloridian]

27. A blogger put it well....it's so complicated it is easier to blame Dean.

That's why. It takes hours to figure it out, and that is too much trouble. Easier to blame the chairman.

[joshcryer]

31. C'mon, the DNC "alternatives" represented 1/10th the population.

If anything is Soviet style it is the belief that campaigning is more important than voting.

DNC's caucus proposal which the FL dems rejected (which cost them their delegates) = 1/10th the voting population.

Dean isn't stupid which is why they're being allowed in the convention.

[crankychatter]

26. k/r KUDOS to MadFloridian

Thank you for keeping me accurately informed.

You deserve a medal.

[skooooo]

29. Gee what a surprise.

:eyes:

[psychmommy]

30. mad, i think dean is doing good.

he is getting out there using the media also. it begins to show how unreasonable they are being instead of vice versa. the media is always the last to catch on.

[madfloridian]

32. I agree. The nicer he is to them...the more it shows them up.

I think he is doing all that he can do, and going out of the way to pacify. He spent an hour on the phone with Florida leaders, they said he was conciliatory...then they went on trying to hurt the DNC fundraising.

[happygoluckytoyou]

33. 50-50..... cant get any more fair than that.....

[madfloridian]

34. Dean is saying the same things to Michigan now.

From The Hill:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dean-says-he-is-also-committed-to-seating-michigan-2008-04-04.html

"After meeting with Florida Democratic leaders this week, Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Howard Dean met with Michigan party leaders Friday, saying again he is “committed” to find a way to seat the two states’ delegates at this summer’s convention."

"In the case of both states, however, Dean said the DNC and the states will need some sort of compromise agreement from Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) and Barack Obama (Ill.), an agreement that looks increasingly unlikely."

[madfloridian]

37. ABC had an interesting discussion of Dean's role in this. Very fair one. Video.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=7242824&ch=4226716&src=news

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. Where the hell were they during the 2000 Miami recount!

Duplicitous bastards.

[Skip Intro]

41. 50/50 is not acceptable, especially for FL. I agreee w/ DWS.

All the names were on the ballot in FL and no one campaigned there (except for a few *accidental* Obama tv ads). FL was an even playing field. The voters voted the way they did. The delegates should be seated proportional to that vote.

edited for grammar correction

[goldcanyonaz]

44. Exactly. How outrageous.

[OzarkDem]

49. Agree, everyone needs to relax

and let the vote be counted as it happened. We can't change all the rules to suit Obama.

[madfloridian]

56. FL was a sanctioned primary. Its delegates don't count.

That is called pretending.

[madfloridian]

60. For a state that so blatantly broke the rules...50 50 is just fine.

[crankychatter]

42. the facts really piss them off

they can't permit the truth to effect their judgement

[OzarkDem]

45. Florida will be voting in the GE

Dems stand for letting all the votes count. The time has long, long passed when this disagreement should have been resolved. Never in the history of our party has something like this happened.

It needs to get resolved and the votes need to be counted. Obama supporters have been stonewalling it long enough.

[Changenow]

53. Hillary has repeatedly stated

that the Super Delegates should decide the nominee at the convention regardless of the pledged or popular count.

How does she reconcile that with her claim that she supports the right of voters?

She only supports the vote if it is for her?

[mmonk]

46. They will be combative until or unless the Clintons give the word

not to be.

[OzarkDem]

48. Obama's the one in control of this mess

and when he decides to let them have a right to vote, things will be resolved.

His actions have been disgraceful, trying to demonize these voters and preventing a resolution. Florida is not a throw-away state and the Dem party can't afford to throw away Florida voters and hurt our political reputation in the state just because Obama wants it that way.

[mmonk]

50. No, THEY are in control of their positions

and put the Clinton campaign FIRST. And THEY are the ones that CHOSE this path.

[mmonk]

55. One thing you have to realize is they chose NO to revote,

caucus, or compromise on a compromised election by a republican legislature. They are doing this for a convention fight and thus it's up also to the Clinton campaign to change any position. I believe Florida should be seated but it shouldn't be unfair as many voters DID NOT vote because of the situation.

[Changenow]

58. Clinton is control of this mess

if she would agree to caucuses it would be over.

She has decided a redo should happen if the terms are favorable to her, and under no other circumstances. Chaos is preferable because it helps McCain.

If Clinton supporters had to tell the truth they wouldn't have a thing to say.

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. What's the difference between an arbitrary 50-50 split and throwing out Florida entirely?

I'm about as far from Florida as you can get in the contiguous 48, but this makes no sense to me. How did we get here?

Shultz is right. And I'd still think she was right if she were an Obama supporter.

[Changenow]

54. More goes on at the convention than

the selection of the nominee.

[sniffa]

52. Too bad they're not invited yet

[billyoc]

61. Oh, merciful God, please let Wasserman-Schultz be the first one tasered. nt

[WillyT]

64. Hey MadFlo !!! - Which Obama Supporters\SuperD's In Florida Is She Talking About...

when Schultz says they don't want a 50\50 split either?

Are there Obama people who have publicly said this, or is Debbie talkin outta her ass?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

67. Wexler is one. He is putting FL before party and country.

There's a lot of pressure. I think Kathy Castor is another. Those are the only two I know of.

FL must not have any of their SDs admit it was the state's fault, so they must keep assigning blame to the national party...which we know is a lie.

There is a new round of nasty stuff about Dean in the FL media today, will probably be worse tomorrow.

FL Democrats are hurting the party.

[WillyT]

70. But Why Would An Obama Supporter NOT Support A 50\50 Split ???

Are they being threatened with retaliation of some sort???

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

71. Pressure to keep the pressure on Dean, I would say.

They have to keep the anger level here up against him, so they will be able to make a splash at the convention. If you get people angry enough, you can get them to turn on good people who are trying to do the right thing.

If what she says is true, that the Obama SDs are against the 50 50 split...then I would say pressure is the reason.

Pressure to make Dean look bad, and the state of FL look good.

[ShaneGR]

65. Yes Sir, Master Sir, I'll be sure to clean that up right away sir....

As a Floridian, I say screw it, if the view of the party towards Florida is "let them eat cake," then we'll be shoving a nice big slice of humble pie down your throats come August.

[madfloridian]

68. Hot damn, another McCain lover on board. Whoopee! Tough guys

who love McCain over their country.

[ShaneGR]

78. Love McCain? What do you base that on?

Because I don't line up behind you on whether or not my vote counts?

[madfloridian]

83. "we'll be shoving a nice big slice of humble pie down your throats come August."

You threatened the national party...so that means you will be voting McCain.

[madfloridian]

69. And if you are calling me a sir, I am not one.

Just to let you know. It is in my profile as well.

[moondust]

66. Small children

sometimes have to learn the hard way. :cry:

[DemVet]

73. Go get 'em, Debbie!

Fight for your state. Not seating FL and MI during the convention would be disastrous for us in the GE.

[madfloridian]

76. Debbie is changing the rules of the primary. Cheer now.

But if Hillary continues these tactics, she will damage the party beyond repair.

It is already to the point that I can not watch her on TV...neither can hubby. We have to turn it off. We can no longer stand her at all.

Glad it makes you happy, but it is meant to harm the Democratic wing of the party.

[kwenu]

75. This is why you announce the presumptive nominee in June after the primary and SD weigh-in.

It will bring a swift end to this "controversy."