Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Well... bitter-gate is officially dead

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:11 AM
Original message
Well... bitter-gate is officially dead
Watching the news today I noticed that bitter-gate is officially dead. Wright-gate is still being propped up on FOX news but ABC's Democratic Debacle pretty much ended Hillary's chance (even though, well you know).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. You think so? Some things have a way of coming back from the dead...
...especially in the GE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not when they didn't work in the primaries n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I hope you're right, but things come back in different forms, different faces.
Selling the bittergate thing to Democrats is one thing, but targeted at conservatives it could be more effective.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Funny enough, michael smerkonish (or however the hell you spell it) on Dan Abrams' show
was pouting that this is all happening too early in the campaign season. There won't be anything left for mccain to use in the GE! Waaa! If they keep this up, this stuff will all be used up and stale and been-there/done-that. Poor thang... :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I think if things keep going the way they have been, you'll be right...
What worries me is that the primary voters are much more politically savvy then GE voters, so things involving flag label pins and other such complete bullcrap don't stick, where they might fly better in the GE. However the flip side of all this primary madness is that people are watching the process very closely, and becoming a lot more savvy as to what's real and what's nonsense, paying attention to details. This will give candidates some protection against BS attacks. (but also they have to watch their own BS, avoid mistakes that might previously have gone unnoticed.)

Anyway, watching this process closely has already turned my brain to muck, I think I need an Internet break for awhile. Thanks to all who replied.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. you think that people who are that tuned out, tune back in in November?
I think that many people have heard of Rev. Wright, Don't you? Because even if you were tuned out, it still sipped through.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Seriously, by the time that the convention rolls around and Obama is surrounded by vets and leaders
from all across the country whenever Rush Limbaugh decided to shriek about Wright only the dittoheads will be listening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. that brings back memories
John Kerry "reporting for duty." Wes Clark on stage. "Just let them TRY to say we aren't patriotic!"

Let's not - again - underestimate the opposition in the general.

That which plays so wonderfully for us, that which we gush over - "he's a fighter! He's a veteran! Bush can't hold a candle to him!" - does not necessarily do us any good whatsoever in the general.

What if there is a close election and it is stolen again? Start working on the next election? Wring our hands? Say harsh things about Republicans?

I know that people don't want anyone to say anything to "discourage " them, and enthusiasm is a good thing - necessary but not sufficient - but not if we are going to be naive about this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Yes. My RWer mother asked me
Edited on Fri Apr-18-08 05:56 AM by votesomemore
if I "agreed" with Wright a couple of weeks ago. I calmly asked her, "about what"? No answer.

They don't know what's *wrong* with it. Minds too shallow to dive deep. What can be done about those?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The primaries are to elections what "previews" are to the stage
What doesn't work in the primaries never makes it to the GE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. hey melody
We are talking to each other on two threads now. :)

I am going to disagree with you on this. I think that the opposite is true. That certainly was the case with Kerry, where during the primaries the Kerry supporters - and I fear staffers! - cavalierly dismissed any and all warnings. Oh, he was going to "report to duty" and mop the floor with Bush. Then everyone was shocked at what the right wing did to him.

That which plays well in the primaries does not necessarily play well at all in the general, and that which is dismissed as not a worry in the primaries will be a big problem in the general.

The difference is more like playing a home game against a weak opponent, compared to then going into a big hostile arena to play an away game against a powerhouse, then it is like a stage preview compared to opening night.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Frumious B Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. IMHO Kerry simply didn't nip stuff in the bud fast enough and he didn't go after Bush hard enough.
I simply can't see Obama making those same mistakes. I also think that Kerry's campaign was hamstrung somewhat by his and Edwards' IWR votes. It made it much harder for them to call Bush out on the war with any credibility. I'm itching for more of this kind of stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQK0LLbXApo



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. we shall see
I can remember the same things being said about Kerry when compared to Gore. People said oh no, no, no, this won't be anything like the Gore campaign. This time we are really going to fight and kick the their butts. Don't have doubts! (As though having doubts somehow harmed the effort - which is a measure of just how desperate and weak we are to think that feeling good or thinking positive will make the difference. We may as well sit around the Pentagon chanting in hopes of levitating it, as some people did in 1969.) All false bravado and wishful thinking. The same fatal errors made going into 200 were repeated in 2004, and there is every reason to believe that we are making the same errors again.

You say that it will be different this time because we have a different and presumably better candidate. That is not what has been missing. The Republicans can run any old clown and win. They put people into office who represent a coherent program, are committed to a comprehensive plan, they don't look for some perfect charismatic personality to lead us. Any bum they grab and run for office will do, because they know the nature of the battle, they know where the battle lines are, they know which side of the battle they are on, they know what they want to achieve and they know how to achieve it. We lack all of those. We don't even know whose interests we represent - we have no consensus or solidarity, no clarity of vision, no focus or determination. Our plans are all wishful thinking, pipe dreams - a grab bag of positions on issues, disconnected and poorly articulated, promoted with an emotionalism that will always be limited in its reach and appeal to a narrow demographic.

In my opinion, the party is floundering - battered, bruised, traumatized. There is no solid and clear foundation, no coherent program. Who does the party represent, and why and how, are still up in the air at this late date, which leaves us with "we aren't as bad as the Republicans" and "we are smarter" and "we have some better programs, just go read 200 pages of boilerplate and convoluted double talk on some website and see for yourself!" and not much else. The Republicans are so bad, that we win here and there anyway in spite of ourselves, but that is more a matter of stumbling into office and then not knowing what to do once they get there. This isn't to blame people. I think the whole country is traumatized by the destruction the right wingers have done to the country.

I know that many see the current primary season as some sort of epic battle between good and evil, rather than as a very strong indicator that the party is in fact adrift, confused, and divided. We have the utterly absurd and self-contradictory idea floating around now that unity needs to be forced upon people - "we need unity! You people are blocking unity!" Unity doesn't happen in a vacuum, and if it needs to be forced on people that tells us that it is not there, and that tells us that there is something more profound that is wrong. Unity about what? Because unity is good? Because we need to beat the Republicans? The demands for loyalty and unity are all about silencing critics, dismissing anyone who is expressing reservations, for the purpose of eliminating any ideas that could threaten the illusion, the fantasy, that we can "believe" our way into power. In other words, the demands for unity and loyalty are actually working against solidarity and success.

Conditions in the country get worse and worse, and yet still Democratic politicians waffle, compromise, back pedal, cynically calculate each cautious move, as they fiddle at the fringes of the problems and tell us to settle for inadequate and laughable "baby steps" and small wins. Meanwhile, the Republicans run circles around us, and our leaders and the most prominent and dominant voices in the party at all levels tell us to be patient, to be careful, to go slow - they tie our hands behind our backs while the right wingers pummel us.

I do not blame Obama. We have a representative democracy - sort of, still - and he cannot represent something that is not there among us. We do not have his back, anymore than we had Gore's or Kerry's. We are not doing our jobs - rather than giving the politicians something powerful to represent, we represent them. We act as unpaid public relations agents representing them, promoting their careers rather than demanding that they promote the interests of the people.

Obama perfectly represents the liberal activist community. This is an all or nothing gamble, and what is at stake is control of the party, which must precede taking control of the country. This is the last stand for a particular style of politics that have dominated the party. Should the party win this fall, that will vindicate the dominant group and that style of politics. That will leave a vacuum into which a new political movement no doubt will form. A loss, on the other hand, will kick over the bee hive and anything can happen. Either way, the people are suffering and that is not going to be magically ended any time soon, and I do not think that people will be willing any longer to be patient, nor to get up to speed on the complicated, nuanced and disorganized program that the Democrats keep presenting and turn themselves into "like-minded" progressives. In other words, we will see either a loss with the collapse of modern liberalism as a political force, or a win with the disaffection from modern liberalism by millions of people and the formation of a new political movement.

Or....

We can hope for a miracle and believe in change just sort of happening. I don't mean to be too critical of that - strange and unexpected things can happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nothing's "dead" until the people of Pennslyvania have spoken.
;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. Primary Dem voters ARE more savvy-
And that's why it's our responsibility to work on our GE friends - and make sure they pull for the big O.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
13. Bless fox they can always keep a dead story walking. Their tender hearts.
Edited on Fri Apr-18-08 05:51 AM by barack the house
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. I don't know about that
Gallup tracking today is discouraging.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. lol. Fox is still pushing Wright?
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Carrieyazel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. It'll go away for awhile, but the damage has been done.
Obama may not be able to recover.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC