Well Kerry is slipping in the polls

[Mobius]

Would he have slipped as much if he has chosen Clark?

[Caution]

1. what's that I smell?

hmmm...smells like sour grapes!

:evilgrin:

[Mobius]

10. Well when you let a national treasure slip through your fingers...

yes there are gonna be some sour grapes. The media and Nader and republican analysts tell us that Kerry should pick Edwards, and the very first thing they harp on is lack of FP experience. That, at least would not have happened with Clark. I honestly fear that the election may go in Bush's favor, because of Kerry's choice. It seemed a safe choice for him, go with who got the second most delegates. Now I see the Bush ads, going to wards Can the Dem ticket with no FP experience protect you as well as Bushco can? We obviously need some repugs to come over to our side, but with this new bullshit terror alert and the campaign of baseless fear beginning to go into full swing again, they won't come.

[AP]

11. ...and where are the polls? Where's the evidence that K-E isn't energizing

people? Where's the evidence that they aren't delivering the perfect message to beat Bush-Cheney.

We all accept that you have a different argument about what's going to happen, but where's your evidence that you're right. You talk about polls, but the polls (and the huge crowds) are all showing that K-E looks like a great ticket.

[Mobius]

14. Actually I looked at Polling report .com

early yesterday. They just updated today, and it looks as if Kerry is ahead of Shrub by an average of 3 points. That would make it a 5point bounce so far. So now I feel like a complete ass. However, when I mess up, I say I mess up. I guess I should have given it more time. I am so very scared that the FP issue will be the deciding factor in the election. And now theis new terror alert thing comes out today with no basis of fact from Ridge. I am terrified not by terrorists, but by how much the repugs will undoubtledly escalate these false claims of terror, just as they did to sucker most of the people into supporting invading Iraq. I will be curious to see what happens to the polls in a few days.

[AP]

17. Yes, this election is about HOPE vs FEAR. Kerry-Edwards stand for HOPE

better than any team of candidates I've seen in a long time. So, remember, there's nothing to fear except fear itself.

If you want hope to triumph, start thinking of ways to make people feel hoepful rather than fearful. Wringing hands and being terrified about Republicans attempts to escalate isn't helpful.

[Mobius]

19. Well denying the escalation of fear is going on

isnt helpful either. If we just put blinders on and hope for the best, we will lose. Im not terrified of repugs, Im terrified of the stupidity of the average republican voter , who believes the hype.

[AP]

22. That's not what I said. Wringing your hands about it is useless. Real-

-izing that your team is using hope to fight fear and then doing what you can to do the same is the key.

You've said AGAIN that you're 'terrified.' If we're terrified, we lose.

Get some hope. Everyone else is.

My local news talked about the terror warning -- they interviewed people who said it was political and probably because Kerry-Edwards were getting such good coverage.

[Mobius]

23. give me some hope

:shrug:

[AP]

24. Kerry-Edwards. Look at the polls. Look at the crowds. Listen to people...

...saying that the terror warnings are political because Kerry-Edwards were making people happy and hopeful.

Really, you're in a very small minority.

[AP]

25. Also, prove to me that you're not propagandizing against Kerry by changing

your OP subject line which you've now confirmed isn't accurate.

[Mobius]

29. too late cant

also after calling me a wife beater, im not very inclined to. Also Im a woman.

[AP]

34. See my post below. I wasn't calling you a wife beater. I was saying that

your question presumes facts not in evidence, and is impossible to anser without admitting the underlying fact which might not be true.

It wasn't a comment on you. It was a comment on the logic of your question. Therefore, it's not personal.

I'm surprised the moderator who deleted it isn't familiar with that phrase.

[Mobius]

46. The way you phrased it made it purposely look like it was me

:eyes: really now...

[AP]

54. It's a common phrase. It signifies something that has nothing to do...

...with your spousal relations.

[Mobius]

30. also i have 4000 posts

why would I campaign against him? You are too easily irritated. Of course I want Kerry to win. I am just thinking he wont, because of this VP choice. Dont turn this personal. That is not what this post is about.

[AP]

36. Many long-time posters at DU dont' like Kerry or Edwards.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lancdem]

58. And the newest one, from CNN/Time, has Kerry ahead by 4

Their last one, from early June, had Bush ahead by 1. That AP poll has to be an outlier, just like that one-night NBC poll showing Kerry-Edwards ahead by 11. A four or five-point lead seems to be the average, which is very good news.

[TruthIsAll]

68. Its a 3.6 point lead for Kerry (5.8 points when you factor in undecided)

								
	Adjust the Kerry numbers for the true vote. 70% of
undecided/Nader voters will go to Kerry							
	Historically, the Challenger has easily captured the
undecided vote.							
								
	AdjK = Kerry +.70*(100-Kerry-Bush)							
	13 -POLL AVERAGE						
	Month	Kerry	Bush 	Diff		AdjK	AdjB	Diff
	Jan 	40.8	51.6	-10.8	Jan 	46.1	53.9	-7.7
	Feb	47.4	46.0	1.4	Feb	52.0	48.0	4.1
	Mar	47.4	44.7	2.6	Mar	52.9	47.1	5.8
	Apr	46.5	45.3	1.2	Apr	52.2	47.8	4.5
	May	46.5	44.4	2.1	May	52.9	47.1	5.7
	June	46.9	45.6	1.3	June	52.1	47.9	4.3
	July	49.0	45.4	3.6	July	52.9	47.1	5.8
								
								

[NewYorkerfromMass]

72. Thank you TIA

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

[dolstein]

12. Excuse me, but this wasn't a media conspiracy

You conveniently ignore the fact that Edwards was by far the most popular VP choice among both elected Democrats, party officials, and Democratic voters. I like Wes Clark a lot, and would have no complaints if he had been picked by Kerry. But having voted for Edwards in the primary, I'm more than satisfied with Kerry's decision.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mobius]

81. If you think that sig line will attract any Clarkies

I think you would be sorely mistaken. Thankfully I am able to separate the candidate from the juvenile nature of some of his supporters.

[Dookus]

2. No,

he's not slipping in the polls.

[Carrion]

3. What Polls?

[emulatorloo]

4. Is this a hypothetical? cuz I am seeing a 7 point bounce. . . .

at any rate, Kerry/Edwards will go up, they will go down, they will go up again. And then they will go in for the kill.

And Gen Clark will be right there beside them. . . .

[juajen]

18. This Clarkie agrees

I love the ticket. Admittedly, not as much as I would have loved Kerry/Clark. Both would have been attacked, no matter what. I'm not sure which would have been hammered more. This is a good pair, and the family shots are great. We go with the positives and burn the negatives. The wonderful General will not desert. So many people love and respect him, if he wants, he will be very visible nationally.

[Catt03]

5. Yeah...what polls?

Maybe you need to do some more research

[WI_DEM]

6. what are you talking about--slipping?

or is it just sour grapes.

[PopSixSquish]

7. Link please?

which poll are you talking about?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

31. "When did you stop beating your wife" -- it's a question that presuposes

facts that aren't in evidence. Ie, to have stopped beating your wife, you have to have once did beat your wife -- so answering in the affirmative is admission of guilt.

Mobius's question presuposes that Kerry is slipping in the polls. To answer this question you have to admit that Kerry has slipped, which he hasn't, thus making the question impossible to answer.

I'm, uh, not accusing Mobius of beating his wife.

[Mobius]

38. Well your phrasing made it look that way

dint think it wasn't perceived that way by everyone else. I'm also not a him. Profiles are there for a reason. You might have done more research like you asked me to do , before making your reply. Also, you might have included the full scope of your reference in your original reply.

[AP]

40. It's a phrase so common I trust that its meaning was obvious to 95% of

DU'ers, as I trust the advantages of having Edwards on the ticket is obvious to 95% of DU'ers.

And, um, Mobius, since it wasn't about you, it doesn't matter whether you're male or female.

It was a comment about the logic of your question.

[Mobius]

44. quote from your previous post:

"I'm, uh, not accusing Mobius of beating his wife."
eom

[AP]

51. It's such an abstraction. Think of the sentence structure as this:

"accusing" refers to everything that follows. I wasn't accusing mobius. I wasn't saying anyone was beating. I wasn't even saying Mobius had a wife. And I wasn't accusing Mobius of being a him.

[Justice]

9. This Does Kerry, Clark, Edwards and All Democrats An

enormous disservice.

stop the madness.

[Padraig18]

13. The only polls I've seen have Kerry going UP.

Link, please?

[faithnotgreed]

15. read 7/9 front page wash post "edwards sets self apart on foreign policy"

priceless. about how edwards was on the money about terrorism pre 9/11 and in may 2001 had written an op ed piece about the threat of terrorism in this country
dont see * or anyone else in that wh can come close to saying that. did they even hold a meeting about it while in office!

clearly wes clark is awesome so i couldnt and wouldnt say a thing against him incl if he had been chosen but since he wasnt (i would have been happy if he had) i hope everyone will not only enjoy this choice but watch closely:
kerry and edwards are handling all this like they had known it would be this way from the start!

they are relaxed and focused and engaging and answering questions with real style and packing the right punch at the same time! the crowds are overflowing everywhere they go

it really is beyond joy to see this unfold as it is...

and dont worry about wes - he is going to be an important part of this yet, as long as thats what he wants. and he has been an incredible rep for this campaign and for us

[LTR]

16. As a Clark supporter in the primaries, I disagree

Edwards was the best possible choice for VP, IMO. It is a job for a politician, and as much as I like Clark, he would take a serious beating on the campaign trail.

If he decides to remain in politics, I think there are more suitable places for him, such as a top-level cabinet position, that can utilize his talents.

Besides, he has said repeatedly that he didn't want the job.

I am thrilled with the Edwards pick. And I think it can help push the Dems over the top.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

20. Let's not start this

I was a Dean supporter the whole way. Let's take a chapter from his book as witnessed by his debating Nader today.

Can't this kind of stuff just stop?

I agree with the poster who says "What's that smell?"

21. double posted

deleted dupe

[senseandsensibility]

26. Excuse me

How can we vote in this poll if the premise is wrong? He is not slipping, as you've admitted, so I think you should change the thread title. It's also very misleading for people who may just be skimming through the topics. It's a downer.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasSissy]

32. So true.

[Mobius]

33. Sorry I will not live in denial

I want to WIN.

[AP]

39. You're entire argument is based on a false premise. You're denying the...

...reality of the last 3 days. Kerry is going up in the polls.

Like I said in another post, nobody is denying you your right to your opinion, but even you understand that a good argument is supported by facts (which is why you cite (fictional) poll data).

What are you supporting your argument with other than emotion?

[Old and In the Way]

28. What's the point?

No proof on your statement that Kerry is slipping...do your own eyes deceive you?

And conjecture about how the polls would perform with Wes is a pointless hypothetical that can only spark a flamefest.

We really don't need this type of discussion, do we?

[Mobius]

35. yes we do

or we will lose. Kerry must think of FP every minute of every day.

[AP]

37. So you don't think hope can triumph over fear now?

[Mobius]

41. I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

That's not what I said. Hope is wonderful, but it does not mean to turn a blind eye to what the repugs are pulling. Just smiling and saying everything is wonderful is like taking to much Prozak.

[AP]

42. I'll thank you to have some come out of yours, like, the ones that

explain what you're basing your argument upon.

[TexasSissy]

43. How is doing a negative post about something speculative going to help?

How is doing a speculative negative post going to help us win? You say "or else we're going to lose." How does your e-mail prevent that? Hmmmmmm?

[Mobius]

45. relaxing and thinking everything is fine

is letting our guard down. Once we do that, it's all over. That is not negative, it's the truth.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

55. What makes you think anyone is letting their guard down? Picking Edwards

is an affirmative statement about the strategy Kerry will use. Just like FDR when he fought fascists, Kerry wants Hope to triumph over Fear.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[Mobius]

47. For those who won't look at all of the replies for fear of the bandwagon

leaving them behind: I give you my early reply to AP:

"Actually I looked at Polling report .com


early yesterday. They just updated today, and it looks as if Kerry is ahead of Shrub by an average of 3 points. That would make it a 5point bounce so far. So now I feel like a complete ass. However, when I mess up, I say I mess up. I guess I should have given it more time. I am so very scared that the FP issue will be the deciding factor in the election. And now theis new terror alert thing comes out today with no basis of fact from Ridge. I am terrified not by terrorists, but by how much the repugs will undoubtledly escalate these false claims of terror, just as they did to sucker most of the people into supporting invading Iraq. I will be curious to see what happens to the polls in a few days.


The discussion of this topic has changed. I reply to what is posted. Kerry is experiencing a 3% lead over Bush as of today, as confirmed by skinner's post. A bounce of 5%. Relaxing and letting our guards down will be a huge mistake, if we want to win this election.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mobius]

49. Got a link for that?

ROTLMAO!:bounce:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. You're Forgiven...

" A kind word turneth away all wrath"


But as part of your penance you must tell ten Freepers to vote for Kerry...

[Mobius]

52. Gee thanks father Dem

I already do that every day. Im not catholic either. Now quit eying up those school boys :evilgrin:

[Nicholas_J]

56. Depends on which polls you are looking at:

Most recent national polls:

Zogby: Kerry 48, Bush 47, Nader 2

AP/Ipsos: Bush 49, Kerry 45, Nader 3

Rasmussen: 7/9: Kerry 47, Bush 46

NBC News Snapshot: Kerry 49, Bush 41

CBS News Snapshot: Kerry 49, Bush 45

ARG: Kerry 47, Bush 44, Nader

So this shows Kerry leading in 4 out of 6 of the latest national polls, in the polls in which he is leading, the differnce between Kerry and Bush has mostly increaset by about a point.

The stte polls are doing the same shifting between Bush and Kery in the Mid-Western States, and in A few Southern States Kerry has improved his status. No I dont think Clark would have lent any more strength to the campaign, as if one can have concerns about Edwards lack of experience due to his short period of time in office, the same lack of experience could be cast upon Clark, because being a General just is the same as being an elected official. He has no real experience in government, and certainly the military is not the most democratically run of organizations, so experience as a general just doe not easily translate into capability as a potential president. Though Eisenhower was a General and had no political experience, his presidency was not all it is sometimes cracked up to be, with an economy that was generally weak, foreign policy flaws that created the seeds of all of the problems that have come home to roost since his presidency (Vietnam, the overthrow of the democratic government in Iran , leading to the current Islamic Republic. ALmost every international problem we have today has its roots in Eisenhower government). Clark showed simlar bad judgement in the Balkans, firing on civilian trains, trying to board a Russian ship, nearly starting World War III.These facts about Clarks decision making while Supreme Commander,European Theater eleimited CLark almost immediately from the short list of possible running mates.He has rarely been discussed in the last month or so as a potenial choice.

[Mobius]

57. A rational post

thank you, except the WWIII part. He showed EXCELLENT judgement in Kosovo, and did not lose one single American life due to combat. That whole WWIII thing is getting a little tiresome.

[Nicholas_J]

66. Ordering the boarding of A Russian Ship

because he thought it had Serbians on it, and having to be ordered to stand down by Bill Clinton was not a sign of the best judgement. Numerous attacks on transport trains which had nothing by civilian refugees on them was not the best or judgement either.

[Mobius]

79. A RUSSIAN SHIP????HAHAHAHAHA

no dear, that was Pristina Airfield, and there were a few renegade Russian troops there, WITHOUT the consent or knowlegde of their government. Suddenly you turn it into Wes ready to take down an freaking aircraft carrier!LOLOLOLOL
Cripes, do some reading, dont they have any books on that bandwagon?:shrug:

[Nicholas_J]

86. No

Pristina Airport was the first event.. Clark ordered the tracking and following of numerous Russian Ships in both the Adriatic, and in the Med, In order to prevent them from supplying Serbians.

ALong with that, Clark proposed bombing of oil pipelines in Hungary, and bombing Russian ships in the vicinity of the Adriatic Coast.

While Clark was not put up for trial by thre Hague, the findins of the Interantiopna Watr Tribunal on the Balkans found that while he led the U.S. efforts in th Balkans.

On top of that, Clark threatened extremely reckless actions against Russia. He proposed that NATO should board or bomb Russian ships to make sure they weren't carrying weapons to the Serbs, and as the war was winding down, he was in a mad race with the Russians to get to an airfield in Pristina first.


http://www.progressive.org/webex03/wx091903.html

{B]Was it Clark's apocalyptic order to use NATO forces for blocking Russia's end run at the Kosovo air base, or his threats to have NATO sea power stop Russian ships from supplying the Serb army with oil? Either act of bad judgement could well have triggered a nuclear war with Russia.

http://www.hackworth.com/9aug99.html


Speaking at the alliance's 50th anniversary summit in Washington, Mr Shea confirmed that Nato leaders had agreed in principle to explore a possible search system to intercept oil supplies.

Supreme Allied Commander General Wesley Clark had been asked to draw up details of how such a regime would work, its rules of engagement and how many warships would be needed to police it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/327498.stm


Clark went beyong the planningphase and ordered the blockade, and was going to board one of these ships, when Clinton DIRECTLYU interevened.

This resulted in Clark eventually "retiring"

Dont get me wrong " I like Clark a lot. But he did go a little wild when it came to stepping beyond the linits of his authority, or at least interpreting it in ways that would make careeer diplomats blanch.

[wiley]

67. Please stop this

Saving one and a half million Albanians and taking Milosevic out was spectacular. Even the Russians ultimately agreed that Wes did the right thing. I've heard this exact argument, word for word, by staunch supporters of Milosevic and Bush/Cheney04. What is your intent? It's not being well received. Alienating Clark supporters by regurgitating this argument will actually harm the process of rallying support for Kerry/Edwards. Is that your intention?

[Nicholas_J]

76. No...

But since I have family in the regions that Clark was performing in, I have a more on the ground, human perpective of the events. At the time the Russians were furious. Th current statements about what Clark did being correct are diplomatic maturbation common in diplomatic circles. They were pissed as hell. A lot of innocent civilians died as a result of strikes ordered by Clark, similar in nature to the so called surgical strikes in Iraq, where tens of thousands have died to date. It wasnt much differnt in the balkans when out heat seaking missiles decided to chase a passenger train because its engine was giving off more heat than the column of tanks it was aimed at, wiping out several hundred civilians trying to escape a war zone.

As you notice, Clark wasnt selected for the VP slot, and in fact, has not been mentioned as part of the short list for months. Most of the reasons are because of the events in Kosovo and the rest of the balkans

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. Hmmmm

I'm not a particularly big fan of Ike but he's on the top ten list of most effective presidents....


http://www.opinionjournal.com/hail/rankings.html


And Washington was a general too... He made a decent pres...

I liked Clark and Edwards equally... You didn't have to trash Clark to make the case for Edwards....

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zulchzulu]

60. Ah, c'mon...

Bygones. Please!

Wes is not VP. From my view, he would have been just fine but the decision is made.

Get out in the street and start gettin' busy getting Kerry in and Bush out.

That's all you need to think about now.

[Jai4WKC08]

61. Give it up, Mobius

You're setting yourself up for heartbreak. They're not gonna figure it out until Nov 3rd, and then they'll think it was something else.

Kerry caved on national security, hoping to win a popularity contest. It's as good as over now.

[JI7]

62. Kerry has national security experience and knowledge

and Edwards has a lot more than Bush does.

[Mobius]

65. I will never give up

thats what patriotism means.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

73. I'm not sure what the big fuss is about

I saw Mobius ask a question. I think it may be an overreaction to jump from there to "hanging on selfishly to your choice, never willing to sacrifice what YOU want for what America needs?"

Many of us believe Clark was the better choice. That doesn't mean we aren't going to support Kerry-Edwards. And it doesn't mean speaking freely makes us "unpatriotic," for crying out loud!

[Mobius]

80. OMG! SOMEONE THAT READS!

Bless you!
I have to go to work now, but if you wanna explain that wes didnt want to board a Russian aircraft carrier in Kosovo or that he was under orders to bomb all targets he bombed, or what being a 4 star general sometimes entails, please do.
Thanks

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mobius]

77. my sacrifice is the constant misinterpretations of my motives

and inflammatory sig lines. Also attacks on my character, that have been deleted from this thread. I am not selfish, I am selfless. And Wes Clark would be smart enough to understand me. If all dems are too confident in this VP choice, and let their guards down, we will lose. It's not all downhill from here, far from it. I'm sure Kerry and Edwards would agree with me on that, and I don't think they will let their guards down. I am talking about YOU and ME as people that can go to phone banks, talk to people, and convince them every second of every day that Kerry / Edwards is the best way to go. So turn off the engines of your bandwagon a few minutes to listen to what I am really saying.
Thank You

[demwing]

83. I agree with the above Kerry/Edwards message

in every way.

Whether you are selfish or selfless, or what sacrifices you make, I'll leave that to you and your diety, if thats appropriate. I withdraw any judgements against you personally, and apologize for any offenses.

But your statements about supporting our candidates?

Amen, you are spot on!

[SW FL Dem]

64. I'm a die-hard Clark supporter, but for me it's time to focus

on the big picture. I went to see Kerry and Edwards in Ft Lauderdale yesterday. It was an incredible experience, despite the heat and humidity. I left feeling very optimistic and hopeful about the future of our country. Do I wish it was Clark - yes. Will I still work my butt off for Kerry/Edwards - absolutely. We need to take our country back and I'm ready to do my part.

[Mobius]

78. There see now?

I've changed my sig line. Now how about appreciating how hard that was for me, instead of calling me a bunch of names, and making a bunch of assumptions?

[Mobius]

85. HOLD THE PHONE! LET'S GET SOME THINGS STRAIGHT HERE!

I FULLY support the Kerry/ Edwards ticket, and have NEVER even come close to saying I wouldn't vote for it. Some of the posters in this thread, that resent the post, keep posting about the original title which I COULDN'T CHANGE BUT WANTED TO, after I realized my polling data was 2 days out of date, because the editing period had expired. I also posted I think 3 times in the thread that Kerry had indeed experienced a 3-5% bounce, and that my thread title was inaccurate but that I was no longer able to edit the thread title because the editing period had expired. Some of the replies in this thread are assuming I am still going by the original thread title when I have explained 3 times I DO NOT. I am experiencing frustration that I have not said one negative thing about Edwards in this poll, yet every Rove play book inaccuracy about Clark is being puked up onto my thread with seeming approval. It disturbs me that these claims about General Clark find most of their origins with Matt Drudge. It further saddens me, that Clark will most likely have some type of cabinet post, or at the very least will be speaking at fundraisers for Kerry. Some of the replies in this thread, are damaging not only Kerry's reputation and judgment, but take money AWAY from his campaign!
It also puzzles me that no one seems to notice I have removed the Kerry/Clark 04 banner from my sig line, as well the fact that my very PATRIOTISM has been questioned, in much the same fashion BushCo did to opponents of the Iraq invasion.
I would also like to say that this thread has promoted some thought provoking discussion, and would prefer that it not be locked.

Thank You,
Mobius

On Edit: At this point, I am replying to the inaccuracies about Clark as well as other posts in this thread. I would also like to add that this conversation is now more closely related to a discussion on the dangers of feeling like we have it made because we have a strong VP nominee. Yes, Edwards is a strong VP nominee. The dangers of letting our guards down (We as voters, not Kerry or Edwards themselves), are far to grave to ignore. Pleae do not ever do that, and get out to the phone banks, pass out those flyers, and for those who can afford it donate as much as possible to the Kerry/Edwards campaign while you still can.

[charlyvi]

87. Chill Mobius.

You know we love you. I've been reading this thread for two days. You hang in there girl!!!

[Moderator]

88. Locking.

The opening post of the thread contains a faulty premise which, to her credit, the original poster concedes. However, the debate in the sub-threads has covered all available arguments and points of view, and the number of deleted posts within the threads speak to its being a continuing source of a potential flame war.

--DU Moderator