An amazing thing just happened on DU / Huffpo . .

[msmcghee]

. . and dozens of blogs across the Internet . . probably a few thousand posts in a couple of hours. And I don't think anyone has noticed how much of an ugly anti-semitic act has just occurred.

Someone posted a video clip to Huffpo from the 1993 Documentary "War Room" . . . claiming that one of Clinton's campaign managers can be heard in the clip saying "How would you like to be a worthless white nigger?"

Apparently, the person in the film heard about this and threatened to sue Huffpo and the person who posted it . . claiming this was a conspiracy and that the film had been doctored to put those words in his mouth.

The clip soon disappeared from Huffpo - replaced with an account of the attempted conspiracy. But by that time there were already several DU threads running like crazy with Obama supporters claiming this proved how craven the Clintons were, that this would end her candidacy, she should just quit and apologize to America, etc.

So far no one has stopped to consider why the person in the clip whose words the perpetrator(s) chose to change / misinterpret - were Mickey Kantor's words. They were not George Stephonopolous' or James Carville's words - they were the words of the only Jew of the three. (I assume Kantor is a Jew)

Need I mention the anti-semitism that some black leaders in America have expressed - including the words of Jeremiah Wright from some of his sermons caught on video and proving to be a big problem for Obama right now. This appears to be quite possibly a very insidious and ugly anti-semitic event to me, attempting to show Jews as racists and trying to fatally damage Hillary Clinton further with blacks by associating her and her campaign with Jews and anti-black racism at the same time. It was actually pretty sophisticated considering the several levels where this could damage Clinton in NC and Indiana. I notice this hit the Nets just a couple of days before the NC primary where Hillary pretty much has to do well against Obama.

I notice several DU posters were all over this like flies on shit. It would be interesting to know why they found such an obvious scam worth so many excited and supportive comments in such a short period of time.

[jakem]

1. No.

It wasn't anti-semitic, it was an over-reaction that some of us accepted as truth because of the general scumbagginess of the HRC campaign.

Im a jew FWIW.

[PoliticalAmazon]

6. Agreed. If they would have picked Carville, would it have been anti-cajunism?....

...Really, this faux outrage and blowing everything up into absurdity is discrediting us all.

[jakem]

12. well, that would be justified....

[lastliberalintexas]

18. Hey now

Not to this SE Texan. :)

[jakem]

34. sorry! I actually had posted a just kidding in the body of the message, but it did not show!

[lastliberalintexas]

38. That's ok, no offense taken

I was just joking with you too, hoping for at least one single place of levity on DU today!

[jakem]

40. carville however... you guys might want to dis-own him...

[lastliberalintexas]

42. Yes, about the only thing I've ever liked about him is his accent

and that he can tell some funny stories. In 92 I was a Tsongas fangirl, so even then I wasn't too fond of the guy. My grandmother, on the other hand... :)

[msmcghee]

13. I am not saying that Obama supporters who responded . .

. . were being anti-semitic. I'm saying that the event itself, the conspiracy, whoever set this up - did do something that was sophisticated and ugly and anti-semitic at the same time.

The effect may be lost on most DU members who participated but I don't think the effect was lost at all - on any AA from NC or Indiana.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[faithfulcitizen]

2. wow, that's a stretch.

[Fermezlabush]

3. I think the Hillary hatred trumped anti-semitism, common sense here

they wanted badly to find dirt on her to offset Wright.
It didn't occur to them to wonder why a campaign worker would insult voters that just gave them an unexpected victpry against a native son (Quayle)

[PoliticalAmazon]

10. Yeah, they were going to pull anti-cajunism and choose Carville but he's already...

...such a scumbag, it wouldn't do any harm.

How absurd. "Anti-semitism."

[Ashy Larry]

4. Please tell me this is satire.

[lastliberalintexas]

7. Yeah, I hope so too

If the video really is fake as it appears to be, then that was bad enough. But I must really be losing it if this was an attack on Kantor just because he is Jewish, because I though it was a) because he's a Dem and b) because he supports Clinton. :shrug:

[SteppingRazor]

5. I think you're reaching a little here.

Kantor was chosen for this because what he actually said closely matched what they wanted him to say. I don't think his heritage entered into it. If Carville had said that "shit" line about the Indiana numbers, it would have been him instead of Kantor -- hell, he would even have been a more-useful tool, since he's still fairly high-profile.

[Android3.14]

26. That must be the wierdest take I've seen today

The ubiquitous "they" released the video because Kantor might be Jewish. Now that is insight!

I'm just glad "they" didn't do it because Obama is an Islamic terrorist, crazy black man, or antifeminist.

Pass the nuts. This means you. (The original poster, not Razordude)

[izzybeans]

8. .

Holy shit. I don't feel so embarrassed now.

:rofl:

[SoonerPride]

9. As Hillary would say

Screw 'em.

[Hepburn]

11. What total bullshit....

...and I come from a Jewish background.

[populistdriven]

14. Most likely it was a Self Hating Jew

:dunce:

[Mooney]

15. This Jew disagrees with your post.

Sorry. I just don't see it.

[msmcghee]

17. Think about it. n/t

[Major Hogwash]

16. "the known anti-semitism of many black leaders in America" - where's the Pizza man?

Normally I don't root for someone to get banned or flushed down the toilet, but whenever someone says something like this - it is well-deserved.

[Solomon]

27. Word. What the hell is the op talking about? Go ahead and

just ignore the tight relationship between jews and blacks in America. Trying to drive a wedge are we?

[msmcghee]

46. Driving a wedge is exactly what this is all about.

The hoax video was the obvious wedge. I'm just pointing it out.

[Major Hogwash]

84. No, you're just another racist at DU.

That's all.

[thereismore]

19. WTF? You're so out of target. This has nothing to do with semitism. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Wow that is an amazing spin there! I'm actually impressed.

Kantor saying that hoosiers are shit is now the black people ganging up on the jews. That is good.

[dchill]

47. It's perfectly logical Clinton circular projection theory.

It ends where it begins.

[sfam]

21. What's truly amazing is your intepretation. Where did you get this had anything to do with Jews?

You assume Kantor is a Jew so this video and everyone's response now MUST be anti-semetic and indicative of a Jew-Black feud thing?

Are you on crack? And for the record, I have no idea whether you are a Jew or african american, so my question of whether you're on crack or not is NOT an anti-semetic or racist statement any more than the Kantor augmentation thing is...

As for my guess for the sound augmentation, it seems pretty clear they thought the "Indiana is shit" line was a pretty good start.

[dionysus]

22. this is all about jews? ....... huh? are you high?

[msmcghee]

25. Didn't say that.

It's about destroying Hillary's chances. And using anti-semitism to do it.

[dionysus]

44. i am trying to find anything remotely resembling anti-semitism in this whole affair

and have no idea what you mean... :shrug:

[NashVegas]

23. With All Due Respect

I think this looks pretty weak.

[olkaz]

24. Seriously, as bad as today has been, YOUR post takes the cake.

So, now, when a person of the Jewish faith does something evil or dumb, those who call them out on it are anti-semitic, no matter what.

Congratulations, you've fallen prey to one of the most retarded right-wing LGF lines of attack.

I could go on and on with both incredible people of the jewish faith, and some of the most dispicable, just like ANY religion. For example, I absolutely idolize Amy Goodman, while I revile the bloodthirsty warmonger Bill Kristol.

Anyway, you take the cake.

[msmcghee]

33. You should take a class in reading comprehension.

No-one of the "Jewish faith" as you say it - did anything dumb here as far as I know. I'm talking about an attempt to smear Clinton using a hoax film clip showing the only Jew among Bill Clinton's campaign managers saying "How would you like to be a white nigger" - and releasing that just a few days before the NC and Indiana primaries.

I'd like to respond to you comments but you should try to understand what I'm saying before you react.

[olkaz]

39. okay, I'll simplify: I didn't know he was jewish until you mentioned it.

And I'm willing to bet that my experience is not unique. I didn't even think about it. **Nobody** mentioned it. Nobody.

[Musty]

54. Why are you calling it a hoax clip?

Many DUers have the original film on DVD and attest that the Youtube clip is not a hoax--maybe you should do some more research.

[msmcghee]

56. Go to Huffpo and get the update.

It's over. It's a hoax.

[TragedyandHope]

28. Why? Because of the Rev. Wright BS

The telling thing is that it took a few hours for Obama supporters to come to their senses, while the Wright thing has gone on for months. Plenty of RWers and Hillary supporters still think it's relevant, which it never was.

[msmcghee]

43. Wright's words:

"I must tell you that Israel was the closest ally to the White Supremacists of South Africa. In fact, South Africa allowed Israel to test its nuclear weapons in the ocean off South Africa. The Israelis were given a blank check; they could test whenever they desired and did not even have to ask permission. Both worked on an ethnic bomb that killed Blacks and Arabs."

[TragedyandHope]

50. You know perfectly well that Obama is not Wright

Stop pretending.

Nothing in Obama's public service, his speeches or his writings have ever hinted at that kind of tripe. In fact, he actively speaks and works against it.

But THANK YOU for proving my point.

[msmcghee]

53. Why twist my words?

I never said one word about Obama being antisemitic.

[TragedyandHope]

69. Funny stuff

You could make some money with this act.

[rodeodance]

29. "(I assume Kantor is a Jew)" Why are posting this when you know nothing about him??

[izzybeans]

31. duplicate

[izzybeans]

32. They are here only to divide people like you and I.

is why.

I think this whole Kantor thing was one of those episodes and this person is pouring gas on the flames.

On the OP's duplicate thread you can see the source of this.

[msmcghee]

35. I assume many people would also assume that someone . .

. . with a surname "Kantor" would be Jewish. Since I did not know for certain myself I added that caveat. The perception is what counts in these things.

[Terran]

30. What is this "anti-semitism that some black leaders"

have expressed? Unless you're referring to Farrakhan, who is hardly representative of mainstream thought, you'll need to prove that idea, because it's a new one on me. You appear to be saying that Rev. Wright is an anti-semite; prove it.

[msmcghee]

52. Wright's words:

""I must tell you that Israel was the closest ally to the White Supremacists of South Africa. In fact, South Africa allowed Israel to test its nuclear weapons in the ocean off South Africa. The Israelis were given a blank check; they could test whenever they desired and did not even have to ask permission. Both worked on an ethnic bomb that killed Blacks and Arabs."

Do I need to mention "Hymietown"?

If you Google "black antisemitism" you get 1,740,000 entries so apparently someone thinks it's worth mentioning.

[Terran]

61. I do remember "hymietown"

though I doubt very much that Jesse Jackson is actually anti-semitic.

Your other "example" is BS. Criticizing what the Israeli government does does not equal anti-semitism. So if this well-known black anti-semitism amounts to a single comment by one man, you should pack it up and go home.

[Buzz Clik]

36. Nice try.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msmcghee]

48. My "My DU" only shows one. Give me a link to the dupicate and I'll try to delete it.

If I wanted to hide my posts at PSU I'd use a different screen name. There are people there with many different views - just like DU although most tend to be pro-Israel.

[sfam]

49. Right here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5785471&mesg_id=5785471

[LSK]

58. oh its a duplicate, I was wondering where my response was

[msmcghee]

60. Sorry - I don't know what happened there. n/t

[Lucky 13]

51. WHY do you assume Kantor is a Jew. I didn't.

It didn't even cross my mind.

This is bullshit. You're trying to twist people's outrage at a doctored video into anti-semitism? Gross.

[Asgaya Dihi]

55. This is really, really, stupid

I've tried to explain this to people about the sexism accusations and pointed out at the time that the same principle applies to most subjects, not just to that one. It applies here too.

I haven't seen anyone but you even mention the idea that he might be a jew, the idea never crossed my mind and if it was something I knew about it wouldn't have struck me as relevant. But it's pretty important to you for some reason. Are you sure you're not the one with hangups or issues over the subject?

It doesn't help to have sexism accusations tossed around as a political tool, it cheapens the issue as a whole and makes it easier to ignore real accusations in real life. It quickly becomes a boy who cried wolf situation where they not only stop listening to the complainers but they start to bait them as well, they fulfill their own prophecy and use the backlash as proof of something that wasn't all that real in the first place in many cases. This will have impacts long after the race is over and the people who will end up paying the price aren't running for any office.

Same with the cries of racism we've seen too often in the race. Yeah, in places and ways it's real, but the US public has a very low tolerance for self criticism so real or not if they hear it too much they just stop caring. And some of that is just garbage too which doesn't help there either.

Have you ever read an Israeli newspaper? I have, used them as sources in debate many times because it proves a convenient point which is hard to make here in the US. It's more acceptable to criticize Israel in Israel than it is here in the US. Sure, some are anti-semitic, but for the most part we're just bullied into the belief that criticism of policy is the same as being anti-semitic, or even worse criticism of an individual is even when religion or State hasn't come up. We can't discuss issues in even broad brush strokes here which they openly dissect daily there, those who have tried have generally been burned for it. And now we can't discuss people?

That's starting to have a backlash too. When we didn't know how odd we were in this respect it was easier to just assume things were supposed to be like this but as we learn more about the world we start to find how little we've actually discussed some of these issues, and the more we learn the more backlash is going to be a factor in the issue. But some will take that too as proof of the problem they themselves helped to create.

You're not helping your cause. You cheapen and damage it. There are real issues out there, try sticking to them.

[msmcghee]

59. What the fuck cause are you talking about?

Or do you even have any idea? My only cause is to point out lies and bigotry where I see it. The accusations about Kantor's words were a lie - a hoax.

The bigotry is in how the hoax was fabricated - to associate Clinton with Jews and anti-black racism at the same time. I call it as I see it. That's the issue. Now - if you want to discuss it I suggest you stick to it and forget your ego for a while.

[Asgaya Dihi]

64. The "bigotry" in this case since that's the cause you claim

The issue of it being a hoax or not is beside the point as far as claims of bigotry is concerned. McCain wasn't smeared with fathering a black child which was in fact adopted instead because someone was bigoted against him, he was smeared because it was a tool that could be used to win an election. Obama wasn't smeared with Ayers because Clinton was a bigot, but because she thought it would score her points and she hadn't considered her own ties with the same group due to her husband releasing members from prison.

It's called politics and I don't like it a damned bit better than you do, where they aren't bigots themselves they are too often willing to use the fears of the public to smear others anyway.

You've got one big problem here though. I see nobody here but you even mentioning the idea that he's a jew, I'm not sure he even is and if he is you're the only one I've seen claim it's relevant. If you're trying to actually fight bigotry rather than score a cheap political point it might be useful toi actually point some out rather than to just claim he's a jew so it must be anti Semitic. They didn't go after McCain because he was white, nor Obama because he was black, they went after both because they were in the way and that's the level politics in this nation has devolved to. Deal with the real problems rather than just invent new ones, or if you're sure about this one back it up better than you have. Looks so far like an excuse rather than a real complaint and yes, that damages the cause you claim, fighting real bigotry.

That fight is a good part of what I do and have done for quite a few years now, mostly in the justice system, so you aren't the only one who cares about it or who has thought about how to approach it and have an impact rather than just making gestures. Take the advice or leave it, your choice, but look at the reaction you got here. Do you think it helped? If not work on the approach.

[msmcghee]

68. I don't expect to change any minds. I expected the . .

. . the response I got. All I can be responsible for is my own words and beliefs.

I believe that whoever did this was playing on black anti-semitism (to the extent that it exists, especially in NC) to damage HRC's campaign. I think that's relevant to the discussion. You seem to think I have some agenda - as is common when emotions are high and someone disagrees.

My only agenda was bringing people's attention to what I see as an insidious attack on Clinton that could have racist overtones. I have no idea who launched it.

[Asgaya Dihi]

72. If you don't have an agenda, what are you doing here?

Everyone has agendas. Mine tends to be drug war, the poor, civil rights and the impact of the prior two on those rights, that type of thing. More and more over recent years the media and corporate control has crept in but mostly because we can't solve the other issues if we can't talk about them and we need a functioning media for that. If people aren't activist about something when they start reading here they tend to pick it up soon enough, we're a pretty big collection of causes overall, filled with activists for all of them.

You play the issue however you want to. If you didn't plan to make a difference or change a mind though it's kinda pointless it seems to me. We're all only responsible for our own words and actions, you are no different than anyone else here in that respect. Those words and actions can change things and influence people or they can be empty gestures. Depends a lot on the choices we make and how much effort we put into it. My favorite quote on the subject is this.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

-Margaret Mead

Deal with it however you want to. But at some point it might be useful to stop to think about it too, what went right and what went wrong, how you can change the argument or approach and make more of a difference. Too often we get caught up in defending an approach instead of adjusting, put pride ahead of results. It's not about right or wrong, it's about making a difference.

[msmcghee]

79. I think it is about right and wrong.

I don't have an agenda in the sense that you do - or at least in the sense you use the term. I believe that morality (right and wrong) is best served with objective honesty and accepting reality even when it doesn't feel good or when it makes you feel bad. I am not objecting to your didactic style because I'm always willing to listen to someone who thinks they have something to teach me.

If I had a desire to change anything about the world it would be to encourage people to accept things as they exist - not as they might wish them to be. That in itself carries the potential for positive change - or at least change more in line with the reality we are part of.

I offered a view of reality that was emotionally rejected by several posters in this thread with many comments accusing me of dishonest or hidden agendas, being a freeper, etc. It is instructive to ask why. Can you do that objectively and without simply massaging your emotional inclinations on the topic?

[Asgaya Dihi]

81. Different kind of right and wrong

I meant on a personal level rather than wider principles of right and wrong, maybe I should have said win or lose the debate or something of the sort instead. The point was supposed to be that we get caught up in winning arguments or supporting a particular point and that obsession in itself gets in the way of serving the larger goal, the real right and wrong rather than the personal win/lose the debate one.

Compromising principle never pays even if it seems to in the short term, all we have to do to prove that point is to examine the results of the compromises this party has made in issues ranging from the drug war to workers rights. Sure, it got someone elected in the short term, but it hurt the nation and the party in the long term.

If someone accused you of being a freeper in this thread they shouldn't have, that's against the rules here if nothing else but it's also poor form to assume of people. If they compared a tactic used to what they do that's more borderline, I'd have to see the context and reason first. That's all beside the point as far as what I was going for though and as far as I can tell more useful to the point you claim to be trying to make. You got a bad reaction from people, rather than trying to defend your point it might be better to accept that even if you are right this approach didn't work. Learn from it and do better next time, use it as a tool.

I'd think that's about as objective and unemotional as it gets. Detach yourself from it too, don't just ask it of others.

[msmcghee]

82. I appreciate your thoughts on this.

But you don't seem to understand something. My purpose is not to win anything or convince anyone I am right and they are wrong. Maybe that's why you post things and you can't imagine that someone would have a different purpose than that. I seldom post to convince anyone of something.

My purpose in posting this op was to point out something that I thought was a significant possibility regarding why this hoax was perpetrated in the way it was. I could be wrong - or right or partially both. I am not concerned how it turns out. It will turn out as it will.

I simply offered a view of reality that no-one else seems to have considered. That is significant in itself. Folks at DU seem to be really good at spotting anti-black bigotry in the most innocent of comments. I've seen people raked over the coals here for saying anything related to race in a comment - where they disagree with the DU worldview on that issue. Remember all the posts not too long ago about how viciously racist it was for Bill Clinton to mention that Jesse Jackson ran well in a previous election in SC? The "Clintonistas virulent racism" is now one the more celebrated memes in the election campaign as we speak.

At the same time the suggestion that pro-Obama forces (someone out there at KOS in this case) would use anti-Jew racism as a weapon in their campaign against Clinton are shouted down and calls for my banishment run through the thread. I find that sensitivity interesting. I learned something from all that. I now have a more expansive understanding of the conflicting values and worldviews being expressed in this election. And thank you for contributing to that.

B-)

[Asgaya Dihi]

83. Fair enough

My views probably are biased some by what I've been doing the last few years, in general I tend to hope that if they aren't already active maybe I can spark something in them. Never know who is reading these things so if it wasn't helpful to you maybe it will be to someone else. It's happened before.

I don't differ with you about some of the racial complaints, they aren't any more useful than some of the sexist or other ones. We spend so much time parsing language and arguing over the little things that the http://www.prisonsucks.com/">big ones don't even get discussed. It's not useful for any cause.

Take care, and I hope you find what you're looking for here too :)

[mod mom]

57. Read this from ABC:

In The Washington Post's review of the film in 1993, critic Desson Howe referred to "a Mickey Kantor comment about the people of Indiana (when it looks as though Clinton's ahead in Dan Quayle's state)."

And a 1995 story in the Sydney Morning Herald said that "As for the good folk of Indiana, they are still recovering from the 1993 documentary War Room, which revealed the grim truth behind the Clinton election campaign. It showed Mr Kantor bursting in on election night to tell other campaign staffers that incredibly, Mr Clinton was doing well even in Republican Indiana. 'And those people are s---!' he declared breathlessly."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/05/the-mystery-of.html

[Warren Stupidity]

62. Obamites using time machine to alter records.

The bastards!

[msmcghee]

63. I made no mention of that comment.

This is about the hoax regarding the " . . white niggers" and the racist implications of that hoax. If you'd like to comment on that I'd be happy to respond.

I find it amazing that Obama supporters here are quite happy to call Clinton and her associates and Bill Clinton vile racist based on the most bizarre interpretations of people's words. Yet, when someone doctors a video to put the words, "How would you like to be a worthless white nigger?" in the mouth of the only Jew on Clinton's campaign committee from documentary film - a few days before the NC primary with a huge AA population component - then I am deluded for suggesting there could be some antisemitic basis for that choice by whoever produced the hoax.

I called no-one here a racist except whoever produced that hoax and I have no idea who that was. I expect though that we will be hearing more about this in the future.

OK - whatever.

[DrFunkenstein]

65. Dude, You're an F'n Madman! This is Hilarious!

First of all, what are the several levels where this could damage Clinton in NC and Indiana? I can't even begin to touch your assumption that Kantor is a Jew. Priceless!

[msmcghee]

70. I said I didn't know for sure.

The Wiki on him doesn't mention his ethnicity but it does say that he was a member of this fraternity in college:

Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT, brothers of which are nicknamed Zebes or Zeebs) is a historically Jewish, presently nonsectarian international fraternity. Today the merged Zeta Beta Tau Brotherhood numbers over 130,000 initiated Brothers, and over 80 student chapter locations. The first verse of the fraternity song is "Here's to our fraternity..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Kantor

[msmcghee]

71. That is beside the point.

Whether he's actually Jewish. It's the perception of his Jewishness to those who are antisemitic. Go to any white supremacist website, show them his picture and ask if they think that "Mickey Kantor" is a Jew.

[damntexdem]

66. This is just more spin, to join the Kantorgate spin.

The whole issue is crap!

This has nothing to do with what we need, everything to do with the politics that we need to reject.

[Barack_America]

67. He's Jewish?

I wasn't aware of that. But thanks for the info, I guess. Makes no difference to me, but whatever.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nichomachus]

74. If I could stretch like the OP, I could teach yoga -- what a freaking reach that was

[Poll_Blind]

75. I think you'll have better luck trying to tie this issue to circumcision or pit bulls. Just sayin'.

PB

[ecstatic]

76. Reach much?

This man's ethnicity never entered my mind. I assumed he was a white guy.

[CoffeeCat]

77. I think this is one of the most absurd posts...

...ever to be written on DU.

[Poll_Blind]

78. You should see what they regularly post in the I/P forum. On second thought...

...you probably haven't done anything to warrant that kind of punishment.

  It is worth noting that just as there are people who see everything as a Jewish Conspiracy, there are Jews who see everything as a conspiracy against the Jews.

PB

[msmcghee]

80. You used to sepnd a bit of time there.

If you actually read my posts, I was not claiming this to be an antisemitic conspiracy. I said it was an anti Clinton conspiracy using antisemitism as a means to reduce her votes among black voters in NC.

[truth-warrior]

85. So many of these "progressive" folks are nothing but anti-semetic stooges.

[question everything]

86. MLK and the Jews

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=356329

[and-justice-for-all]

87. How much of this shit do you think is Rethug sabotage?

Done to deliberately stress and separate the HRC and Obama folks more, as well as the Democratic party?