For more than 20 years Hillary attended a church that discriminates against gays.

[NoodleyAppendage]

So, why did Hillary remain with a faith for ALL HER LIFE that excludes persons based upon sexual preference? I guess this means that she agrees with the United Methodist Church doctrine that homosexuals are "incompatable with Christian teachings." Isn't it time for Hillary to denounce the United Methodist Church leadership for this bigoted philosophy?

From church doctrine materials:

"the United Methodist Church does support the inclusion of homosexuals in the congregation, and homosexuals can take part in sacraments and programs. However, the UMC does state that 'the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching,' so the church does not allow homosexuals to become ordained ministers. The UMC will not conduct homosexual marriages and will not allow them to be held in their churches."

[meow mix]

1. why does hillary support bigots like that?

any of her supporters wish to explain?

[rug]

3. I can't. This woman has clearly dedicated her life to homophobia, imperialism and torture.

[papau]

54. LOL - nonsense like that gets to be funny after a while - plus her Church "blesses" gay couples

Some folks do really get upset with gay "marriage" - even some folks who aren't into "homophobia, imperialism and torture"

[NoodleyAppendage]

6. the deafening sound of crickets will abound here. there is no defense.

Plus, it only supports her lack of a problem in using dog whistle terms like, "San Francisco," when describing Obama's supposed elitism.

If Hillary was pro-gay, then she would at least make a statement explaining how she has stuck with a church that discriminates against gays.

As an aside, she and George Bush share the same religious denomination. 'Nuff said.

J

[The Night Owl]

20. See post #13 and then get back to me. {EOM}

[NoodleyAppendage]

27. See post #14 and then get back to me. n/t

J

[ruggerson]

30. See post #16 and don't get back to me n/t

[The Night Owl]

31. See post #16 and then get back to me. {EOM}

[NoodleyAppendage]

36. Can't...that's a post from someone who was lucky enough to be on my ignore list. n/t

J

[ruggerson]

39. Copy it for him

he put me on ignore the last time I called him on his hypocrisy regarding this issue.

[The Night Owl]

13. Yeah... The folks at TUCC at least have the decency to serve breakfast while bashing gays...

A TUCC style gay bashing prayer breakfast...

Prayer Breakfast
March 31, 2007 • 8:00 a.m. – 12:00 p.m.
Monument of Faith Church • 2750 West Columbus Ave. • Chicago, Illinois
Guest Speaker: Rev. Sean McMillan, Pastor, Giant Steps Church

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators,
idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of
these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you
were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. —1 Corinthians 6-9–11

http://www.tucc.org/upload/tuccbulletin_mar11.pdf

I guess some at TUCC feel that nothing goes better with breakfast than telling people that they're going to go to Hell.

:eyes:

[The Night Owl]

24. {tumbleweeds roll past}

[The Night Owl]

34. {sun goes down}

[The Night Owl]

42. {crickets chirp}

[Forkboy]

46. Well, that's religion for ya.

They all tell me I'm going to Hell for one thing or another.

[TheWraith]

60. You know that that's part of that "bible" thing, right?

The ignorance is staggering.

While the bible comes off as a pretty smutty and questionable book at times, quoting it is pretty standard practice for, you know, churches. How about you try judging them based on their actions and attitudes rather than the thousand-plus year old holy book, eh?

[TLM]

77. So pretty much everybody is going to helll.....

that's basically the consistent theme across the board for Christian churches.

[ruggerson]

2. You're not gay

I've never seen you speak out in favor of equal rights for gays.

So why the sudden interest?

[mcctatas]

5. Is that a qualification for concern on the topic?

I personally think the whole pastor gotcha game is freaking ludicrous (of course since I was raised Catholic, my church has discriminated against almost everyone at one time or another and is still horrible on women's issues and gay rights). But seriously, did everyone who jumped on the Rev. Wright issue have a long history of speaking out against whatever the hell it was they found so offensive? :shrug:

[ruggerson]

10. I just think it's amusing that people who have never been advocates for this issue

now conveniently play partisan politics with it.

[Stephanie]

18. I am not gay and I have been an advocate for equal rights since I volunteered at GMHC in the 80s

And I think the gay vote for Hillary has been totally swindled. She does not support gay marriage. She has never supported gay marriage.

[ruggerson]

22. Well then you have some credibility

Obama has never supported marriage equality either, so I'm not sure I get your point.

[Stephanie]

28. I think that the community's support of HRC because of an early Obama campaign mistake is misguided

Check his site, he has better marriage equality proposals than she does. He advocates extending all of the hundreds of federal marriage rights to same sex couples. It is a larger step legally than anyone has proposed so far.

[ruggerson]

32. I think most gays and lesbians who are interested and involved

have already checked out both candidate's websites, know the issues thoroughly and have already made up their minds. Don't you?

[Stephanie]

40. I think there is certainly a segment who are less informed and could be swayed by a single story

McClurkin certainly was a deal-breaker for some of my friends here. They have not been open to seeing it as an isolated incident. And yet Obama's proposals are better for civil rights for all.

[ruggerson]

45. they are roughly equal on GLBT issues

Clinton has spoken out specifically about gay teenagers, quite movingly, and she also speaks of a profound experience for her: her father died being tended to by the gay male couple next door. Her father had been a complete homophobe until this couple befriended Clinton's parents and, slowly, he changed because of his relationship with them. She gets it. Completely. I think Obama's heart is in the right place, but I haven't heard him say anything that makes me believe that he understands on a very gut level, what these issues are about. He's got all the right positions, but they seem to me to be a litany of where he thinks he should be as a good liberal. I hope that changes as he experiences more of life. And it's just my impression.

[Stephanie]

52. Actions speak louder than words.

What has she done??

[ruggerson]

67. Well, symbolically, she's marched in a couple of gay rights parades

which is an important public gesture (Obama has not, even though Chicago has a big parade).

More substantively: She fought tooth and nail in 2006 to prevent the Const. Amendment from passing, working very closely with Joe Solmonese. She's a co sponsor of ENDA and the hate crimes legislation. She supports federal rights for gay couples who have civil unions or marriages in their home states.

Obama has been criticized in the Chicago gay community for doing virtually nothing while he was a State Senator. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've read a number of reports of folks making the same criticism I expressed earlier: he does not seem very interested.

Here is a report card on how both stand on the issues:

http://a4.g.akamai.net/f/4/19675/0/newmill.download.akamai.com/19677/anon.newmediamill/pdfs/Questionnaire_ReportCard.pdf

As I noted above, their positions are very similar.

[okasha]

72. Goddess deliver us

from straight concern trolls.

[ruggerson]

73. there sure are a lot of em floating around

[Stephanie]

81. Oh so sorry, did I step in your wading pool?

Having watched HRC performance in New York these past seven years, she has not done shit for gay people, she supported DOMA, she has equivocated on every question and it's been impossible to get her to commit to anything. My opinion is not invalidated based on my sexuality, is it?

[DMorgan]

35. Oh so equal rights issues are "CONVENIENT" for Hillary supporters?

Some of us heterosexuals have ALWAYS been against discrimination against people who are not heterosexual, we also have been WHITE all our lives, do we have to change skin color to speak out against racial discrimination, too? You make no sense.

[ruggerson]

49. The proper comparison would be if someone

who never gave a rat's ass about civil rights or racial equality before this election suddenly became "outraged" and accused the opposing candidate of being soft on civil rights. An election conversion, so to speak.

[TheWraith]

56. You have no justification for making such a claim.

Your personal opinion doesn't constitute evidence that someone doesn't care about equality. You're just using that accusation as a club to try and attack anybody who's not on the side of your preferred candidate.

[ruggerson]

58. Not at all

I've had this conversation previously with this OP, as he's tried to use this issue before as a wedge. He got very agitated when he was called on it by a number of people.

[TheWraith]

63. And I've previously had this conversation with you.

Therefore, by your rules, I have just as much authority as you do to decree that you don't care about equality, but are simply trying to beat up other candidates' supporters.

Or, we could conduct a conversation like ADULTS.

[ruggerson]

69. The difference is

I have spoken out about this issue, loudly, long before this election. My views on this are not defined by the Clinton/Obama race. I will remain interested in and vocal about this issue long after this cycle.

The OP cannot say the same.

[patrice]

4. So, how does that compare with Obama's church, United Church of Christ?

[JVS]

9. Unfavorably. The UCC is significantly more liberal than the UMC

[ruggerson]

16. Obama's congregation does NOT marry gay couples

they could, because the parent church allows it. But they have decided not to.

UCC congregations can vote to become "open and affirming."

Trinity has not voted to do so.

[JVS]

47. That does not change the fact that the UCC's position is more liberal

[ruggerson]

51. The entire OP is ridiculous to begin with

[TheWraith]

57. How so, pray tell?

[JVS]

59. As are the chicken littles who run around worrying about Wright's "hate-filled" preaching.

[ruggerson]

71. I have actually defended Wright on a couple of occasions

even wrote an OP about this particular issue and his statements regarding his feelings.

[Emit]

14. The UCC became the first mainline Christian denomination to support same-sex marriage

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=united+church+of+christ+gay+rights&btnG=Google+Search

[ruggerson]

19. See post #16

[PatGund]

29. Well, let me put it to you this way...

My fiance is openly bisexual and we're both poly.

She's UCC.

Her church has no problems with her sexuality or preference.

UCC is a very open and liberal Christian church.

[ruggerson]

7. And, btw, "sexual preference" is offensive. It implies one can "change"

It's an orientation.

You should know these things if you're going to feign outrage about issues you could give a shit about.

[TheWraith]

55. It's not "feigned" outrage.

If you're going to be a puritanical fool, and reject the efforts or aid of anybody who doesn't meet your purity test of the one true way to act right down to the language, then you're setting yourself up for continual alienation, disregard, and failure.

[ruggerson]

70. It most certainly is feigned outgrage

[TLM]

75. And so see no room for a neutral orientation, where choice is a factor?

Most bisexuals I know, it is a choice.

Is there no room for bi in the center of the hetro/homo spectrum, where which direction taken does come down to a choice?


Seems sometimes the so called advocates for freedom and choice wish to rigidly define sexuality as forcefully as the psycho christian homophobes do. It is what it is, and for some there is a choice, while for others there is no choice.

To try and apply a rigid framework encompassing all sexuality, is ridiculous.

[closeupready]

8. Since homophobia is still acceptable among some of those who consider themselves Christian,

this won't even be a blip on the radar, but it should be.

[NoodleyAppendage]

11. Just bringing it up to illustrate a point and put it out there as a useful retort.

This point should be brought up every time Hillary or one of her supporters goes into the "well, why did he (Obama) stay in the pews for 20 years?" routine.

J

[maddiejoan]

12. Her own particular church

"The Foundry" in Mt. Pleasant is very gay-friendly.

[NoodleyAppendage]

15. Is that church part of the United Methodist Church system?

If so, then "gay friendly" or not, that church is bound by the dictates of the UMC doctrine.

J

[maddiejoan]

26. I know very little about how Christians organize themselves

I'm just telling you that her church is openly friendly to gay members and same-sex unions.

[NoodleyAppendage]

33. If it is a church that is part of the United Methodist system, then NO gay marriage.

They probably call it anything they want, but I can almost guarantee you that her church does not provide binding legal or ceremonial services for same sex unions. Maybe something symbolic, but nothing that would provide recognition from the state.

[ruggerson]

38. Trinity (Obama's congregation) does not marry gay couples either

[okasha]

41. It's the marriage licence from the state that provides recognition from the state.

You really don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about, do you?

[NoodleyAppendage]

44. I know that Hillary remains with a religion that discriminates based upon sexual preference.

You can slice or dice it anyway you like, but her church is part of the United Methodist Church system, which has clear and codified doctrine discriminating against gays and stating that "homosexuality is incompatable with Christian teachings." If she really supports homosexual rights, then why remain with this religion or remain silent in the face of obvious bigotry?

J

[QC]

48. {pssssst...since you have decided to be DU's very own Harvey Milk...

and that's really cool and all, I figured I should let you know that you shouldn't say "sexual preference." Only homophobes and freeper trash use that term.}

[ruggerson]

53. he's a bit slow on the learning curve

when I last challenged him on this, he blew a gasket.

[emilyg]

74. You lost.

[maddiejoan]

43. OMG

a Christian church that won't marry gay-people!

Why can't the UMC get with the rest of all the Christian denominations that support Gay marriage!

(BTW -- The State recognizes marriages through --are ya ready? -- paperwork filed with the State)

[okasha]

17. The pastor of Foundry Methodist,

which is Hillary's congregation in Washington, has recently announced that the church will conduct blessings for gay couples.

Try again.

[NoodleyAppendage]

21. Will that church consecrate a gay Bishop? Is a "blessing" the same as marriage?

tried again.

[ruggerson]

25. It's more than Obama's congregation, Trinity, will do

if you want to get stupid about it

[okasha]

37. Uhm, you're aware that no church can conduct a marriage

without a license from the civil government, no? Does DC issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples?

And individual churches don't consecrate bishops. Would delegates from Foundry vote for a gay bishop? Very likely.

Tried again and failed again.

[milkyway]

23. Gays are from San Francisco, and Hillary don't like no San Francisco elitists (unless she's fund-

raising there for the hundredth time).

[cbayer]

50. But, but, but...

I thought she was a lesbian!

I am so confused.

[JVS]

61. James Carville says that she has three testicles.

[cbayer]

65. He would know.

[JVS]

66. How would he know? Is there hanky-panky going on there?

[cbayer]

68. Don't tell Mary.

She is a bitch on wheels and will be jealous all the way around, if you know what I mean.

[chyjo]

62. She hates gay people

And Democratic activists\

[nichomachus]

64. How could she stay in a church like that. I would have left

oh, wait a minute, I did.

[TLM]

76. Oh my god how could she stay in this hate filled gay bashing church?

Unless she supports everything every member of the church has ever said?

[Lord Helmet]

78. and she sat there for 20 years and said nothing?

too bad that doesn't slap her in the head like a limp tuna

[TheDonkey]

79. We need a UU president

:toast:

[JVS]

80. We had one. His name was Taft