Why My Best Friends Will Be Voting For John McCain Over Hillary Clinton. Ponder This.

[David Zephyr]

For over over thirty years, a couple that I introduced to each other, have been die-hard, liberal Democrats. We have phone banked together, we have stuffed enveloped, canvassed neighborhoods, planted yard signs, held fund-raisers and more for Democratic candidates. Those years in the trenches together endeared them to me in ways that only life-long friendships can. But this weekend, they dropped the bomb: should Hillary somehow wrestle the nomination away from Senator Obama by her threatened "nuclear option" at the convention, they will be voting for Senator John McCain in November. Here's how they explained it to me:

John McCain will move the Republican Party more to moderation than any GOP president since Gerald Ford. John McCain, they pointed out, will not be beholden to the anti-immigration bigots that he stood up to last year. McCain will not be beholden to the anti-science crowd that have dominated the Republican Party for a decade. McCain will not be beholden to Rush Limbaugh who opposed him daily on his radio show. McCain will not be beholden to Pat Robertson or James Dobson who would not endorse him. Moreover, McCain will support embryonic stem cell research and while he will not support gay marriages, he has spoken favorably at times about civil unions for gays and lesbians. And while John McCain certainly would never govern as a liberal, they argued that McCain would do America more good by moving the GOP away from its extreme right-wing clutches than Hillary would by moving the Democratic Party more to the right.

Hmmmm...

"McCain would do America more good by moving the GOP more toward moderation than Hillary would by moving the Democratic Party more to the right, more to the bidding of the military contractors, more to the bidding of the transnational corporations."

I asked them both why they'd be willing for the first time in their lives to help a Democrat lose in November and they answered that losing would purge once and for all the DLC types, the Liebermans, etc. from the Party and would leave Americans with two choices in the future: a more moderate Republican Party vs a truly progressive Democratic Party...which they argue would be in America's best interests long term.

Barack in 2012?

I argued back saying that this sounded like a mirror image of what many are saying is Bill and Hillary's 2012 plan: lose the nomination, but put up a fight and weaken Obama letting McCain win and then blaming him for the loss so that she could be the clear choice in 2012. "Is that what you are saying?" I asked.

They said that it was exactly what they were proposing should Hillary and Bill and the corporate media steal the nomination from Obama.

And they said that a moderated GOP under McCain would be far better for America than a rightward turn by the Democratic Party would ever be.

I spent a great part of today thinking about that. I don't agree with that logic, but I wonder if others have heard this. Remember, this came from activists who love the Party.

[Skittles]

1. your friends are seriously deluded if they think McCain is MODERATE

the man is rightwing SCUM

[Zachstar]

14. The topic was about the viewpoints of others not to insult.

It is a very important aspect to consider.

[joeybee12]

17. I think their views are off, but it shows how people have bought into

McLame's "moderation". I know other people who think he's moderate, but they dislike Hilary because she too left-wing. They should visit this site. It's all about eprception.

[David Zephyr]

23. I am voting for the Democrat regardless, but...

I think this is why Rush Limbaugh and James Dobson opposed McCain so much during the primaries. They will lose voice should he win the election and he thumbed his nose to their "powermaking" when he ran.

[joeybee12]

27. But if he wins the GE, it will be because of a large right-wing nutjob

turn-out. He'll owe them if he wants to get re-elected, so I don't buy that he will govern moderately. Who knows? We may actually find out!

[lastliberalintexas]

121. Nope, they opposed him to create the IMAGE of McCain as moderate

You're politically smarter than that David, you should be able to see through the "Maverick" crap.

[KoKo]

70. Agree...and that folks buy into some RW Meme that the EVIL CLINTONS want to throw this election to

run in 2012...sounds right out of Rove and MSM'S thingy to keep it going while their viewers tune out.

It's Propaganda...I'm sorry that David Zypher's friends/activists are buying into this...but everyone is so spooked these days ...the MSM and "Powers that Be" know they can play on our fears because they've used that "Fear Factor" so often to rope us into their way of thinking.:-(

[joeybee12]

81. Agreed...but I will say that Mclame has spent his career bamboozling

people into believing he's a moderate...kind of like Barbara Bush spent her life projecting an image that made her appear nice and grandmotherly. in reality, she makes Nancy Reagan look like Little Debbie. It's all about perception, and the RW knows how to work it.

[PoliticalAmazon]

32. And people are severely deluded if they think Hillary is a DEMOCRAT. n/t

[Skittles]

36. aw, poor baby

:rofl:

[izquierdista]

2. I agree with the logic

But what can you do when the choice is (R) vs. (R)?

[David Zephyr]

7. Well, it floored me.

I will give them a week and see if they still feel the same way, but this came right out of the blue. So I'm wondering if this was their own idea or is this brewing elsewhere?

[KoKo]

82. Seems like "elswhere."

Where do YOU..think the meme came from that put that bug in their ear?

[David Zephyr]

86. I tend to think it was their own thinking.

They are both great readers and, like all of my friends, they wear their thinking caps well.

[faithfulcitizen]

3. Very interesting.

[ruggerson]

4. Apparently your friends have really good weed

n/t

[DinahMoeHum]

5. The GOP is too far gone. McCain is as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

Hope they're prepared to be shellacked in November 2008.

And no, I haven't heard your friends' tortured logic from other people.

:evilfrown:

[saracat]

6. Funny, my best friends would vote for Mccain over Obama!

and for many of the same reasons. They do not " trust " Obama and feel McCain is a "safer" choice.And there you have it.It works both ways

[David Zephyr]

11. So the primary loser will actually be the winner in 2012?

You only underscore the bigger point: the nomination at this point now will be toxic to either. And that "trophy" goes to Hillary.

[saracat]

16. Sorry but Obama has been equally "toxic".

[Zachstar]

21. In your mind yes. But he never talked about the nuke option.

[saracat]

25. But he does think it is okay for SD's whose states don't

support him to vote for him? Whatever. It goes both ways.

[Zachstar]

58. Um have you compared the totals?

From what I can tell if Supers were forced to vote with their states Obama would be leading in Supers by now.

[KoKo]

72. I can't understand why your "friends" (one of which is Tom Hayden) would ever sign on to this...

I must believe that their are "other friends" who spooked you that you are putting this post out there. :shrug:

[David Zephyr]

90. Tom Hayden has nothing to do with this. Nothing.

You make too much out of a small thing. If you knew these two individuals, you wouldn't be so dismissive of them. They are wonderful people and have given more than most on behalf of the Democratic Party.

[KoKo]

110. We all get discouraged. I couldn't make up my mind for so long because I thought

Dems could have had it easier if they hadn't decided to make Race & Gender the two top running candidates. Party would say it was "voters" who make them top two candidates...but we who've been watching this a long time know that it was the Party's choice along with the Mainstream Media that picked them. Voters are the last in the process after the faulty machines and voter disenfranchisements that are still part of our system because Dems in Congress didn't do what they PROMISED US after '04 Election.

Maybe your friends were as discouraged about what they see from our Dem Congress as I and many here are. I had the same thought your friends did that our Dem Party needs to be crashed down before something better in it's place can rise. But, more I thought about it the more I saw that we need it to be a transition to give more time for Grassroots Media and Activism to take hold more firmly. We definitely need four years of some kind of Dem in there to keep the pressure up...while we work. McCain and the Bush/Cheney's running from prosecution on his tail are never going to give us a chance. Not saying Clinton or Obama would...but that we can hold them more accountable to us out here...than we could McCain.

Just saying.

[KoKo]

84. I don't trust either one...but...I decided to go with Obama...very late...Kucinich for me..but

alas...an Elf with Principles can't win in the USA...:-(

[David Zephyr]

92. Well, your primary is tomorrow. You finally got you wish to vote.

At this point, the full primary scope should play out. The damage is done. Either candidate is wounded and Obama has truly been the target of the establishment. The fear factor of the unpredictable has finally set in with the real power in the country. They know Hillary and they know John. But Obama? He doesn't take PAC or lobbyist money, has a donor base of nearly 1.5 million Americans, wants to speak with our enemies (how will Lockheed-Martin ever make their next quarter without enemies?)...

Let me know how you finally made your decision. You kept us all waiting until now.

[KoKo]

108. Voting at 10:00 or so tomorrow. He's very popular....I don't understand why

you are suddenly so down on him. :shrug: BTW...it was the Women's Vote/Women's Voices voter disenfranchisement of African-American voters that did it for me. I couldn't vote for Hillary after that. We worked hard to get the DRE Machines out of NC...except for the "handicapped." It was a tough battle. To see John Podesta on the Board of WVWV along with others from Clinton Administration disenfranchising their base through me over the edge big time. I posted my outrage about it...but you might have missed posts. That's when I declared for Obama...when that happened last week.

[David Zephyr]

116. I was in the desert and in San Diego for seven days. I missed a lot here.

I'd like to see your decision post and read it. I waited such a long time so if you could point me to it, I would like to read it.

I'm glad you decided to declare for Obama.

[KoKo]

119. Check your PM..

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. The problem with that argument is that McCain really isn't a moderate.

It's true that he has taken a few positions contrary to the GOP party line (like stem-cell research), but on almost everything else he's a bit to the right of Darth Vader. He is absolutely anti-choice; he favors the usual conservative approach to economics (privatize everything and starve the government, as well as the people who depend on it); and he's a complete neocon with respect to foreign policy. (I suspect his stance on Iraq shows he's trying to re-fight the Vietnam war and "win" it this time). He has also said he would appoint Supreme Court justices like Scalia and Roberts.

So I think your friends are kidding themselves. If McCain really were a moderate they might have a halfway rational argument (though I can't say I've heard it before), but he's not -- he's Bush redux.

[Zachstar]

28. He is not Bush redux

He has had good military survice and knows the shit the soldiers have to go through.

Is he a nutjob? Yes. But he is a nutjob the republicans despise and he will not be afraid to bow down to some democratic pressure to get things done.

And he would never use the nuke option to get to the white house.

I have respect for McCain and compared to Clinton (IF she uses the nuke option) he would likely get more done for change (By getting the democrats to stop playing fucking games) and we can try again in 4 years.

I want Obama he stands for Change and he ready to work for change. The people have indicated they want change and it is the party's job to stop playing who is the more experienced crap and accept it. With the internet you cant let Clinton use the nuke and not expect MASSIVE loss of support for the party.

Democrats. Don't let Clinton do this! Don't put the party at risk! Obama will lead us to victory! There is no need for the nuke!

[David Zephyr]

33. Zachstar, it was the "nuke option" that really was the last straw for them.

I mentioned it in the OP, but I should have made it clearer. The so-called "nuclear option" by the Clintons was the last straw that set them off.

[Zachstar]

48. And it has set alot of people off.

I am holding out a bit of hope that when democrats get to the polls tomorrow they will realize this is heading for disaster and hold their nose and vote Obama to end this destructive mess.

Tho it seems the supers are taking action if recent rumors are correct. Indicating that the Nuke Option will not be accepted. So perhaps that will keep Clinton from trying it.

[lastliberalintexas]

123. Your hatred for Clinton has blinded you

to the faults of the only republican left in the race. FFS people, I've gone through this primary season not being able to really tolerate either Obama or Clinton, yet I don't have the animosity you folks do. I just don't get it.

[KoKo]

73. MODERATE...McCain is the TRUE MANCHURIAN! Tortured in Vietnam and spilled his Guts Out!

Sheesh! That this toady is put up as an example of American HERO shows the "MSM Dominance" in their DISTORTION or total disregard for FACTS!

He's totally weird and has a past that shows he's got a "wire in his ear." :eyes:

[rdenney]

118. Amen to that! McCain has unchecked anger issues and is a "loose cannon on the deck", IMO. n/t

[Happyhippychick]

9. Hope they enjoy the last laugh when McClone nominates three new SCOTUS's

Ha ha ha...it's hilarious!

[Zachstar]

20. It will be good.

Because the party will learn a serious lesson and finally become a party of change instead of bullshit of the past if they let Clinton use the nuke.

Now I think they are not stupid enough to accept Clinton dropping the nuke. But my views need to be clear.

I will not support the democrats if they allow Clinton to get the nomination through the nuke option.

[Happyhippychick]

34. Goody! Enjoy the Civil Rights Stripping! Hope you aren't too attached to them!

[Zachstar]

45. I can take a short term loss of loss for the long term gain.

At this point I don't really care. Id rather try to convince McCain to keep civil liberties in high regard than bow down to the Clinton Machine.

In 4 years we can try again if the nuke option is used to sucess. Hopefully with a party ready for change.

It is so silly how so many do not realize how bad a position democrats are in. If Bush ended the war years ago and talked with the democrats more. McCain would almost win without campaigning.

And we want to throw the advantage away to appease the Clinton Machine? HELL NO. I support the democratic party to bring change to the nation not bow down to machines.

[David Zephyr]

56. Let's hope that cooler minds prevail and stop the Clintons from their "nuke" at the convention.

Still, it was an aweful threat that their side has now made. Aweful.

[KoKo]

89. You nailed it! "Take a short term loss for long term gain"...We are damned if we do that for

legislation. We still have a Congress we need to PUSH kicking and sceaming to INVESTIGATE...BUSH/CHENY WAR CRIMES and Crimes against AMERICA and IRAQI's and AFGHANI'S! CRIMINALS NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!

We can't wait for that...for some "Unity Thingy" with Repugs!

[pingzing58]

10. And 50 years of Iraq like South Korea? Yea right. Vote for a Repug and see what you get. I'll

be selling bumper stickers - Republicans are the problem or It's not my fault I didn't vote for a Repug.

[loveable liberal]

12. Hmmm.. Can the country stand another 4 years of a do-nothing government?

4 years of no supervision and enforcement by the
FCC
EPA
NRC
FDA
DOJ
HUD
Social Security
Medicare
DOE
DOT
Armed Forces
FEMA
DHS
DOD
And any other agency in the whole stinking government that has abdicated its responsibility? Do they think John McCain will bring responsibility and oversight back to these agencies? I think not.

Because although John McCain might bring the Right to the left, that is certainly no reason to vote for a person who hates government yet is a complete hypocrite and draws a paycheck from the entity he so despises. The President does not control this country; s/he needs help of a bunch of other people.

These people you speak of do not sound very thoughtful to me.

[Zachstar]

15. Yes

And if Clinton manages to get the nomination with the nuke then yes it will deserve 4 more years.

[lastliberalintexas]

124. You might fucking deserve it

I and many others do not deserve McCain or what his presidency will meant to minorities, women and the poor. Take the fucking partisan blinders off for a change. Shit.

[H2O Man]

13. In April,

Jeff Poor had an article in the Business & Media Institute, titled "Blumenthal Claims Inside Knowledge that McCain Flirted with Leaving GOP." In it, he quotes Clinton adviser Sidney Blumenthal as saying that McCain had given serious thought to leaving the republican party, and being a moderate independent who would caucus with Senate democrats.

In fact, that is a description of Joseph Lieberman, as well. By no small coincidence, McCain and Lieberman are close associates.

The problem we face is that a growing number of elected officials in both parties are moving towards that "Third Way," which Blumenthal has strongly advocated for, as well. Our only real choice is Barack Obama.

[David Zephyr]

24. This pretty much what this couple is saying.

McCain is a threat to Limbaugh and Dobson and that's why they opposed him so much during the primaries...they knew he would not be beholden to them as Bush was. They argue that a moderated GOP is better for America than a right-leaning Democratic Party.

[H2O Man]

31. I suspect that

his campaign has made more of an approach to the Dobson types than most people realize. McCain himself set the tone a while back, when he was willing to humiliate himself when meeting Rev Jerry Falwell. Just as he bowed when hugging Bush, he was willing to humble himself in order to gain the religious right-wing's okay. If Clinton is the nominee, the religious right will support McCain in large numbers.

[KoKo]

87. Maybe we ought to be looking at the role the "Third Way Advocates" are playing in this election...

"Follow the Money." Given that Sid Blumenthal has done a 360 becoming what he abhorred for so long when he helped us grassroots Activists by giving us ammunition in his columns to verify what we thought the RW Media Operation was about...shouldn't we all be doing some research on who is behind the funding of "Third Way" and what their agenda is? :shrug:

[natrat]

18. that's the way it will play out if the freak gets the dem nomination-all according to dlc necon plan

[scarletwoman]

19. Since you were brave enough to post this -- thank you! -- the least I can do is say that I think

your friends are actually pretty right on.

I have struggled -- I'm not sure for how long, 2 years at least -- with the question of whether I'd be willing to vote for DLC Clinton if she got the Dem nomination. And while I occasionaly waver, I have -- so far -- always come back to the same place.

I simpy see absolutely no point in letting my vote serve as any sort of sign of approval to the right wing takeover of the Dem party in the guise of the DLC. I refuse to do it.

On the other hand, there is absolutely NO WAY that I would ever vote for McCain. My plan all along, if Clinton got the nomination, has been to simply write in Dennis Kucinich, and vote Dem on all the down-ticket races, as I have always done.

But I totally dig where your friends are coming from. Better to move the extreme right closer to the center, than to allow the putative "left" move further right. I think they are absolutely correct, and I thank you for outlining their position here.

I feel that this also must be said: anyone who thinks the Democratic Party represents the Left is an idiot, anyway.

sw

[David Zephyr]

30. Well, it was a bit brave. Thanks.

I love these two and they are like family to me. They subscribe to The Nation, they are hard-core California liberals and would pass every litmus test for contemporary American liberalism. They are sickened to think the Democratic Party could become even a more pro-war, pro-corporate party than it was under the first years of GW Bush.

I truly appreciate your comments, scarletwoman, because this was a tough one to post.

The Clintons have hurt the party by continuing their quest. It's really hard not to believe it was intentional.

"A moderated GOP is better for America than a Democratic Party that moves to the right." That's a concept I'd never considered.

[Zachstar]

38. And it is a good concept.

Seriously if the party was stupid enough to let the nuke option be used... It would be no better than the republicans. Therefore the republicans moving to the left would make them better than the democrats.

And you may think that is stupid Clinton supporters but that is what many people are going to feel and you will watch the map go red. If Clinton wins 2 states she will be lucky.

[KoKo]

91. What about Supreme Court Judges and Cleaning out Justice Dept., EPA, FDA, Commerce, Treasure

etc., etc. from the Regent U. Graduates? You think McCain will do that? He is as terrifying in foresight as Bush/Cheney are in hindsight... in my humble opinion...:shrug:

[scarletwoman]

47. "A moderated GOP is better for America than a Democratic Party that moves to the right." Maybe.

I would much prefer that your friends just left the presidential section of the ballot blank, than to actively and symbolically express support for a Republican.

The end result may be the same -- which is fine by me -- but the soul-damage strikes me as less.

sw

[David Zephyr]

53. LOL.

I will be calling them later this week in hopes on bringing them back from the darkside. If you knew them, you'd never believe they could vote for a Republican. I think, that as you suggest, they will chicken out in the end or vote Green or not at all. I can't imagine them voting for McCain, but that is what they said.

"A moderated GOP is better for America than a Democratic Party that moves to the right." They kept comparing McCain to Jerry Ford.

[scarletwoman]

68. My bottom line: Do not vote for what you don't want. (nt)

[Catherina]

109. Please see post 105. McCain won't move the right closer to the center

I'd LOVE to be able to get in a voting booth and pull the lever for McCain to teach the Democratic Party a lesson it would never forget about not representing its base but like you, I could never bring myself to do that. I could never bring myself to vote for Hillary either so we're in a fine pickle.

Please see post 105. McCain isn't going to move the extreme right closer to the center. He's the guy all the neocons backed until Junior made a deal with the devil and brought Cheney on board. The daddy called in a bunch of favors and the rest is war history. McCain wouldn't have been ANY different than Bush except that he would have stuck to the plan and gone into Iran first instead of pissing all over himself salivating over Iraq's oil.

I write this with a heavy heart because we're in a real mess. Obama, a neoliberal himself, is our only hope out of the PNAC quagmire because Hillary and the DLC have long been onboard with PNAC. I can't in good conscience let any decent people think that McCain is an old-time Republican or old-time Conservative. He stinks. And so does Hillary, who Kristol and the rest of PNAC hedged their bets on a few years ago. He wrote an article about how 2008 would be the year the Dems picked up the PNAC plan because the Republicans were tainted goods. Hillary was specifically named by several PNAC people including our good allies she's willing to obliterate Iran for. Hillary hasn't been building up McCain while tearing Obama down for nothing.

I'm backing Obama as America's last hope to avert a total disaster. If Obama doesn't make it, I'll pour all my strength into building an alternative party and vote Third Party this election. America's on the edge of a precipice and McCain is pushing just as hard as Junior. It will be a nightmare if the election is stolen from Obama.

If McCain were an old-time Republican, I'd agree with their reasoning but he's not :scared:

[BootinUp]

22. nutballs. nt

[Zachstar]

29. Ya thats the way to get their support eh? Insults!!!

I will never vote for Clinton. And I hope few will if she uses the nuke. Your insults do nothing but alienate more people which is a trait of the Clinton Campaign.

[BootinUp]

37. Try looking both ways

maybe its the fucking blinders?

[Zachstar]

41. You mean Clinton supporters not voting for Obama?

That is their choice. Yet Obama is not going to use the nuke to get elected. Most will get over their bit of normal anger that their candidate lost and vote anyway.

The nuke option changes all that.

I don't have time to worry about Clinton supporters bolting from the party.

[BootinUp]

46. You're hilarious. nt

[Beacool]

26. That's OK.

Tell your friends that there are plenty of people who would vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee.

What we got in this election is a Mexican standoff.

:shrug:

[Zachstar]

35. Not in the least bit.

Obama does not need to use the nuke to get nominated.

I am not stupid I know that there will be a great deal of Clinton supporters that will vote for McCain over seeing Obama the next president. That is expected. What is not acceptable however is some of the reasons some on this very forum have stated.

Yet the majority of them will move on. They will understand that Obama did nothing wrong to get the nomination. That he played the game and won. And I think they can hold their nose and vote for Obama rather than lose supreme court justices.

Now for Clinton if she gets the nomination normally. (70+ percent in ALL upcoming states followed by a switching of supers to her) Then the same thing will happen and Obama supporters will get over it.

The nuke option tho is MUCH MUCH MUCH different than that. It is extremely aggressive and political and fits the stereotypical political viewpoint. The pain of watching Obama defeated that way will install hatred for the democratic party in no way the republicans can even dream of.

Its the same as if Obama had held the committiee and used its power to give ALL the delegates from those states to him and none to anybody else when he is behind by 200 delegates. You know you would be outraged and angry and protesting and everything. You would feel the nomination was stolen.

[Beacool]

40. Frankly, I don't care how Obama gets the nomination.

I just don't think that the guy is prepared to be president and have no intention of helping him to get the job.

[Zachstar]

43. So a a person who is supposedly worried about who can do the job you would not be outraged?

[Beacool]

44. There are two candidates left.

I think that one is fit for the job and the other one isn't. I will support Hillary and, if it comes to that, a unity ticket but that's about it.

[Zachstar]

50. NoNo I mean if Obama "stole" the election by getting all the 2 stages delegates to make up a defecit

Lets say he was say 200 away from Clinton and the primary season ends. Yet he manages to get the delegates awarded to him and he wins.. Would you not be outraged?

[lastliberalintexas]

127. That's just as idiotic as David's friends

Again, I don't like either of our candidates, but I understand what a McCain presidency would mean for the poor, minorities, women and USSC. Not to mention that we'd likely see the real nuclear option used on Iran if McCain and the neoconcs win this fall.

Think about that for a moment, because as much as I dislike Clinton because of her recent statement on Iran, I still recognize that she is 1000X better than McCain. At least that.

[Cha]

39. hilary has promoted mccain

too well. Understandly people would like him better than her if those were the only two choices.

hilary has made herself into the vilest creature on Earth to any person capable of critical thinking. In addition to having the m$$$fuckingm choose our candidate AGAIN..it would be too much to succumb to hilary's and the m$$$m propoganda extortion scheme.

But, I think hilary and her scumsucking mediawhores are in for a shock.

[David Zephyr]

59. That's the other thing. She and Bill have promoted McCain.

Hillary and John: "Two people who truly love America." --- Bill Clinton.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. I agree with the reasoning, but I could never vote for a Republican.

My nose takes enough punishment when I ignore it and vote for "moderate" Democrats.

[Jed Dilligan]

49. McCain won't need their help.

His victory against Clinton will be a landslide.

[Cha]

66. That's comforting.

:o

[Neshanic]

51. Actually logical. Quite a conversation you must of had. These strike me as the most true...

"And while John McCain certainly would never govern as a liberal, they argued that McCain would do America more good by moving the GOP away from its extreme right-wing clutches than Hillary would by moving the Democratic Party more to the right."

This is true, and in knee jerk reaction we as a party would move more leftward back to our true roots.

"I asked them both why they'd be willing for the first time in their lives to help a Democrat lose in November and they answered that losing would purge once and for all the DLC types, the Liebermans, etc. from the Party and would leave Americans with two choices in the future: a more moderate Republican Party vs a truly progressive Democratic Party...which they argue would be in America's best interests long term."

This would indeed doom the republican lites in the party.

You have very two smart friends.

Just one thing, will the medicine be worse than the disease? McCain will I think tell all that gave him grief in the past like the religious right, the Neocons, and others to basically fuck off, and we will have another Eisenhower type. That being said though, there may be some awful little surprises.

[Zachstar]

55. The democrats are going to Control congress.

McCain can't afford to act neocon or everything he tries will be stonewalled.

Its a good situation to be in. We will get nothing done but we can wait 4 years to try again.

McCain talks about keeping the war going to appease the voters but even he knows he will never be reelected with the war going for another 4 years.

His supreme court justices will sting for decades but it will be a reminder of why we cant bow down to machines. And change will continue.

[katsy]

77. This Congress?

They haven't stood up to that criminal in the white house, who happens to have a 30% or less favorability rating!

Unless you're counting strongly worded memos.

To say that there are people hurting in this country is an understatement. How many more must fall into the poverty trap, without healthcare or jobs, in order to prove a point? One or 2 generations? The treasury will be robbed for 4 more years by warmongers. Global warming? You can put that on the back burner.

Here's mccain - and there's nothing at all moderate about him: http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

Where he stands on issues reflect the kind of SCOTUS appointments he will make.

[David Zephyr]

61. I really don't believe they'd actually vote for McCain even though they said so.

As scarlettwoman suggests, I imagine they will just vote Green or sit it out. But their rationale really took be for a surprise. I know how much they have given to the Party and I think the hurt is really too much. The threat of a "nuclear option" by the Clintons really put them in a grand funk.

They are very smart, as you say. That's why I finally took the step to post it here for discussion.

The extended primary season as most all know has hurt the party, perhaps fatally. When it became mathematically impossible for Hillary to have won, she should have had the decency to throw her support to Obama. The Clintons, as always, put themselves above party.

[KoKo]

76. You wanna "CRASH CART WHAT'S LEFT" after Bush/Cheney to do good for the Dem Party?

I have to admit I've entertained those thoughts...even posted once on DU about it...back before Obama had the BIG MO that that it might be a healthful thing for Dem Party to go down and take DLC with it so that we could be Phoenix "rising from ashes" for a NEW PARTY.

But...I now think it's time for a "transition Dem" because while Bush/Cheney has dismantled most of "what we thought we had as Constitution/Bill of Rights" ...allowing McCain to FINISH OFF THE DEED would Kill MOST OF THE ACTIVISTS and NEW MOVEMENT. We would leave or die in the interim.

I don't think that McCain and an Interim Caretaker would be a way we could go. Better to be with a DEM who goes down who is RUN by Progressives that can "hold some bar against them" than to go with "In Iraq for 100 Years and flip/flop, Bush Kissing and Hugging McCain turn coat! How many more judges would he put in our District Courts and Supreme Court if he was Elected? AND...what about cleaning out the RW Evangelicals from EVERY GOVERNMENT CABINET, Departments of JUSTICE, EPA, FDA, CIA, FBI, COMMERCE , TREASURY and all the REST of our Agencies who are supposed to work for the American People? Would McCain clean out anything? :shrug:

[Neshanic]

113. "transition Dem?" we have a nightmare now with two moderates as it is.

[KoKo]

93. Do you truly think McCain would be an Eisenhower? Why? What would make you think

that could happen? I've never seen any intincts in McCain..the big tortured, War Hero...that he would ever think to warn Americans to beware of the "Military/Industrial Complex!" Never. :shrug:

[Neshanic]

112. It's about the feeling in general. nothing specific. A moderate republican war hero.

I think that's where the republicans are driving him as far as the general feel of what he would be like. WE all know how the republicans worship the past.

[Catherina]

105. McCain won't do that. There's nothing moderate about him. He's the original PNAC

McCain is PNAC through and through. His top foreign policy advisor Randy Scheunemann, is one of PNAC's directors. Bill Kristol, PNAC’s founder, Gary Schmitt, PNAC's President, Robert Kagan, PNAC's director and James Woolsey, PNAC signatory are all working their butts off to get McCain to the Presidency.

The PNAC is reinventing itself and former members like Kagan and Bolton are backing McCain.


Before PNAC, there was the New Citizenship Project. The NCP was "one of the key behind-the-scenes architects of the Bush administration's foreign policy". John McCain was its President.

NCP shares the same address and suite as PNAC. According to NCP's listing in The Right Guide, NCP and the Philanthropy Roundtable share the same phone number. The Philanthropy Roundtable's office is on the same floor of the same office building as PNAC and NCP.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=New_Citizenship_Project

Daniel McKivergan, former deputy director of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), is a policy analyst and writer closely associated with Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), for whom he has served as a campaign adviser. Through perches at outfits like the Weekly Standard, McKivergan has hyped threats from a number of countries, including Russia and Iran, often promoting interventionist U.S. strategies.

...

Until he left the Weekly Standard in 2007 to join the McCain campaign team, McKivergan often posted articles on the Standard's blog, arguing that Iran is developing the capacity to produce nuclear weapons and that the only question is how long it will be before these weapons appear (McKivergan, April 2006). A January 2006 post drew parallels between Hussein and Ahmedinejad, with the title, "Saddam Close to Having a Nuke in '91; Today, Iran Follows Saddam's Nuclear Procurement Playbook" (Daniel McKivergan, "Iran 'Fantasies' at the New York Times?" WorldwideStandard.com, April 11, 2006 ).

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1297.html

[lastliberalintexas]

128. Thank you!

God it feels like I fell through the looking glass to another board when I read all these posts praising McCain and bashing Clinton. You might not like one of our candidates this year, but FFS at least admit that they are both better than the alternative.

[Avalux]

52. I do somewhat agree with that logic, although I won't vote for McCain.

Me and others I know will simply not vote. We are all activists, we all love the Democratic Party and we are sick to death of being jerked around by power-tripping corporatists like the Clintons.

I am sure the Clintons are confident all Democrats would fall in line behind Hillary no matter what. But if Hillary gets the nomination illegitimately, all bets are off.

[bunnies]

54. none of my friends will vote for Hillary under any circumstances.

Camp clinton doesnt care about that though.

Every vagina-haver will vote for her once she steals the nomination. Right? Sorry shill. The vagina-havers I know have WAY more class than that.

[dsc]

57. If they are pro choice

they have forever, and ever, and ever more lost the right to complain about pro lifers like me who have voted for Democratic nominees year after year after year when abortion rights are taken away. They will give the SCOTUS to the right not for five years, not for ten years, not for fifteen years but for no fewer than 20 years.

[Zachstar]

60. Now that I think about it I don't think McCain will take the chance to put anti-choice justices up

Not that I really care at this point because if we actually cared about defeating McCain we would have gotten started a month ago but alas.

Congress is going to be solidly blue regardless. Atleast for another 2 years and likely 4. McCain starts acting NeoCon and putting Anti-choice justices up and he will get nothing done and will lose badly come next election.

But regardless if the party has to lose some justices to finally get rid of the bullshit then so be it. We have our Nominee and I am perfectly happy for Clinton to try to win 70 percent in all contests to get the lead again but the nuke option being accepted is too much.

[dsc]

62. Thomas and Scalia were both approved by solidly Democratic Senates

while Ginsburg and Breyer were approved by solidly GOP ones. The one and only decent predictor of the politics of a SCOTUS judge is the politics of his appointer.

[Skwmom]

63. Yes I've heard the same and frankly I think MANY will find it an attractive option.

[KoKo]

78. REALLY? That's amazing? Give up Democracy so Dems can Crash and Burn? n/t

[K Gardner]

64. I hadn't heard this, and it's good food for thought and interesting debate. Thanks for

posting this, David ! Your friends sound like wonderfully enlightened people :-) :hi:

[NNN0LHI]

65. Sounds like an LSD flasback to me

These old boys ever experiment with any halucinigenics that you know of?

Don

[David Zephyr]

74. Here's a little ditty from the musical "Hair" just for you, Don.

"Initials"

LBJ took the IRT,
Down to 4th Street USA,
When he got there, What did he see?
The youth of America on LSD.

LBJ IRT,
USA LSD,
LSD LBJ,
FBI CIA,
FBI CIA,
LSD LBJ.

[KoKo]

79. OH S**T...you might have it there........

:eyes:

[PaDem]

67. Not sure how the Democratic Party at tne national level.........

could move any farther right and still be called the Democratic Party. Also, McCain is not a moderate. He's a moderate on a few issues.

[ecstatic]

69. Also gives them a chance to clean up their own mess

and if they fail, they'll be banished for decades! Just playing the devil's advocate here.

[Zorra]

71. Sounds like, "If my candidate is not nominated, I'm voting republican"

to me.

Kucinich and Edwards were my first choices, and I'm very disappointed with both Dem candidates because they seem pretty much the same to me, but come election time I'll be voting for whichever Dem is nominated.

[Zachstar]

75. That is not the thing at all.

Its the nuke option that would cause more alienation than the party could allow.

If she won by over 70 on all contests and took the lead then people will get over it. Doing it with the nuke option wont. People will leave and the republicans will win.

[KoKo]

80. Sort of sounds like that to me, too.....n/t

[Nia Zuri]

85. No it's much more strategic than that...the idea is to ultimately

move both parties to the left. Face it, Hillary it pretty far right. Two reasons for voting against her or abstaining is to stop the right ward shift of the Democratic party and to punish bad behavior such as race biating, spewing lies and all around negativity. As a black person, I also love the idea that by staying home, we a avoter block would never be taken for granted again. Okay, there's three reasons.

[David Zephyr]

88. That's what they were driving at, scard. You nailed it.

Strategically to move both parties to the left. I do think that such thinking has some merit. Just not voting for John McCain. My companion of thirty-plus years is a person of color. I don't think that some of Hillary's supporters (not all or even the majority) really get it at how people of color, along with those whose families are blessedly "mixed" like mine is, are watching this play out very carefully. This is a really big test.

[KoKo]

95. What evidence do you have that Hillary is "pretty far right?" Her positions

as she's stated them...as she winds back and forth ...are very far to the left of Bush/Cheney and close with Obama (although we have no idea what either will do once they are elected). Still a Dem in the WH (even the dreaded DLC) is better than a Repug who won't listen to the Grass Roots Activists.

[TBF]

101. Her statement that she and McCain are the only ones ready to be in the White House

She is praising a republican over her democratic running mate. I think she's after (1) the presidency, and/or (2) a post in McCain's administration should she fail at getting the nomination.

[KoKo]

103. That was spun big time by MSM...I've heard her say worse...but she IS a Democrat and McCain is NOT!

there's a huge difference unless you think Bush/Cheney were "sort of okay" because they weren't Tom Delay. Oops! Were they Tom Delay?

[TBF]

104. She's not acting like one during this primary.

[KoKo]

107. She's not acting much different from our "do nothing" Dem Congress...but it's still better

than the Hell we've lived through for 7 years...unless everything's peachy keen with you and your family under Bush/Cheny and you don't care about our "Cowboy Foreign Policy." :shrug:

[TBF]

115. She threatened to obliterate Iran last week - how is that different than Bush/Cheney/McCain?

[TBF]

99. I get it as well. I'm prepared to do the same thing by voting for Nader.

[lastliberalintexas]

129. Sounds that way to this uncommitted

And just as idiotic no matter which Dem camp it comes from.

[Robyn66]

83. McCain is NOT Moderate

He is a puppet of the Reich wing!

You cant sacrifice the future of our country because your candidate isn't the nominee whomever it is you want! This is too important folks. We have to look beyond ourselves. A Democrat HAS TO WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION!

[ileus]

94. well everyone in the GOP considers him a Democrat.

Other than on the iraq war we're going to win either wray this fall.

[KoKo]

97. What evidence do you have that "eveone in GOP considres McCain a Dem."

Maybe over at "Free Repuplic" or some other equally creepy website like Limpballs or Malkin/Coulter.

Have you ever looked at McCain's background before you took off saying that? :shrug:

[AZBlue]

96. Yeah, I hear that from people who don't really know much about McCain.

As soon as they dig just a little, they change their minds. Quickly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

98. Your Best Friends Are Pretty Stupid When It Comes Down To It.

Seriously. That's one of the dumbest explanations I've heard yet. You shoulda just pointed your finger at them and laughed your ass off.

[Catherine Vincent]

100. Die hard liberal Democrats, my ass. nt

[slick8790]

102. It's actually a rather interesting premise.

But I'm not sure I accept the terms that McCain is moderate. Certainly moderate compared to the commander-in-chimp, but I would still call him decidedly conservative (pro-life, pro-war).

But if there really was a TRUE moderate running in the republican party (Lincoln Chafee comes to mind, although he's no longer a republican), versus a Dem moving us towards the right, it'd be a difficult decision.

You've given me something to think about. Congratulations! :)

[IsItJustMe]

106. The bitter pill arguement. It has some merits to it. For myself, I could not vote for McCain.

[Faryn Balyncd]

111. Unfortunately, a McCain presidency will NOT move the GOP in the direcion of moderation. It will just

....allow the GOP, and its authoritarian/corporatist base, to retain power (and, by the way, control the Supreme Court for several decades.)


Although I am NOT a Hillary supporter, I will vote (& campaign) Democratic in November, even if she is the nominee.

[Neshanic]

114. You must not have alot of republican friends. They LOVE him and his comparative "moderate" stance

compared to the RW extremists that run amok now.

[Warren DeMontague]

117. "McCain the moderate" will be like "Dubya the moderate".

Moderate, my ass.

[lastliberalintexas]

120. No offense, David, but your friends are pretty stupid

If this leftist, agnostic Socialist can agree to vote for the Dem nominee in November, then anyone can. I don't really care for either Obama or Clinton, yet even I can understand that they are both 1000X better than the alternative.

I hope your friends are happy when we nuke Iran under that "moderate" McCain presidency. :shrug:

[Not the Only One]

122. Being anti-torture is moderate in the GOP, so by that standard, he is.

It doesn't take much regarding progressive views to be a moderate Republican.

McCain also believes in evolution, another radically moderate view in the GOP!

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. Okay, like, I have this 'friend'... n/t

[KoKo]

130. Nah....David is a real Dem....if he said his friend said it...it's true...

been here a long time and active in CA politics.

[goletian]

126. given the fact that mccain is the biggest flip flopper of all time, he definitely doesnt seem as

though hes beholden to anything. and he would move the gop toward the center -- thats most certainly true; this is why hes not popular with the far right fringe. interesting take. hillary is disgusting. mccain is lame. but hillary gets no respect from me for what shes done. i dont even care if she loses, i still have no respect left for her.

[rucky]

131. If we hadn't just come off an 8-year bender

I'd probably have the stamina for that

[Overseas]

132. Your friends are seeing the old McCainy -- he has changed a lot since 2000

The corporate news media are clinging to the Y2K edition of McCainy-- the maverick opposed to GWB. THey'd better check out the upgrade-- it is very different. He has changed his tune in many profound ways and the country does not have time to proceed on the destructive course the new McCainy supports.

Arianna Huffington has listed many of the changes in position McCain has made since his "maverick" days in this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/what-john-mccain-told-me_b_100183.html

He flatly denies making certain statements that we actually have on video tape. He's a Win At All Coster too.