Clinton Counts Florida, Michigan in Delegate Math (WSJ)

[debatepro]

Clinton said she thought 2,209 was number needed to win. On Monday, Geoff Garin, her chief strategist had said on a conference call that 2,209 is “what we believe is the standard for deciding this is that who has a majority of the total number of delegates, including Michigan and Florida, that — to decide the nomination,” according to a transcript of the call.

For its part, the Obama camp is clearly focused on 2,025, and the campaign put out a press release Monday saying the Illinois senator needs 273 more delegates to reach that goal.



That way the goal post can keep moving.

[paparush]

1. Gore says there is no doubt those delegates will be seated.

[edhopper]

4. They will be

half to Hillary, half to Barack.

[dogday]

Gore is still the Count every vote Man, is he not?

He can't help but remember Florida and when we were the party of count every vote...

[WeDidIt]

6. Gore does't say HOW they'll be seated n/t

[totodeinhere]

33. Yes, but he didn't say they would be seated under the conditions that Clinton wants.

[bowens43]

42. It's not up to Al Gore

the man who couldn't beat the stupidest man ever to run for the office isn't running the show.

[Waya]

2. Gawd.......

.....what's next? Only States that start with 'A' count? Hillary is nearing pathetic and pityful..........

[DrDan]

7. Florida and Mich vote in the GE

So why not have the candidate that best represents all 50 voting states? Doesn't that make sense?

And I say this NOT as a Hillary supporter?

[newmajority]

15. Actually, Florida only thinks they vote in the GE

as was proven in 2000. And it's only worse now that they're on electro-fraud machines.

[DrDan]

26. now - hate to admit it, but you have a good point . . . .

thankfully we can request a paper ballot.

[jenmito]

16. But they broke the agreed-upon rules. Over 2 million people DIDN'T vote in FL and MI, knowing

their votes wouldn't count. The states shouldn't be rewarded for breaking the rules.

[DrDan]

23. 1.7 M did vote in Florida

and the 1.7M did not break a single rule. The party leaders might have, but not the voters. Why should they be punished.

And I say again - I am not a Hillary supporter. I do believe everyone's vote should count, however. That is what primaries are all about - to chose the best candidate, that is, the one that has the best chance of winning the GE.

[CTLawGuy]

43. because the state party leaders

are counting on Dems "not wanting to punish the voters". That's why they thought they could get away with willfully breaking the rules. Why not put blame where blame is due, on the state party leaders who put their selfish agenda over your rights?

[DrDan]

44. how do you know I don't?

I actually place the blame on both the state leaders and the DNC. The Democratic Party charter clearly spells out that voters have an equal voice in the primaries. This was obviously violated.

I think this "selfish" attitude clearly describes both the state leaders and the DNC. They were both at odds in a power play over primary dates. And the voters got screwed.

I am pissed at being treated as a second-class citizen and shall vote accordingly.

[CTLawGuy]

48. how is the DNC supposed to enforce its rules

other than denying delegates? Tell me that? or do you think we should have a national primary Jan 3rd every cycle?

[DrDan]

49. how about withholding funding?

how about denying any nat'l positions to these state leaders?

Punishing the voters should be stictly forbidden.

[CTLawGuy]

51. withholding funding punishes ALL Democrats

and it's totally counterproductive, and I doubt these people (Gov. Granholm) are too worried about getting national positions.

Do you believe that a murderer should be spared jail if he is the sole breadwinner for his wife and 5 kids?

[PermanentRevolution]

45. See, my issue with that...

And, before I begin, I'd like to say that, as a Florida voter, I do sincerely appreciate everyone's concern over my vote. That is, with the following caveat: I appreciate your concern as long as your view is not politically motivated. If you genuinely would feel this way regardless of who won the primary, then thank you for your concern. If, however, your concern over voter's rights has more to do with increasing Hillary's delegate count than it does with disenfranchisement issues, then I'd respectfully ask you not to use my vote to score political points. It's important to me, and I'd like it treated with respect.

BUT, that being said, the issue with Florida as I see it is that the 1.7m voters (myself included) that you've mentioned were under no illusion that the primary vote was anything other than a meaningless contest. It had been well-established and well-reported long before the vote took place that the actions of our state legislature (Republicans AND Democrats) had effectively disenfranchised all Florida Democratic voters. No Democrat in Florida had any reasonable expectation for our primary results to contribute to candidate vote totals. We'd, in fact, been told multiple times that the exact opposite was true and that our delegates would not be included. As such, those of us who chose to vote anyway were already well aware of our disenfranchisement. We each had our own reasons for doing so - principle, protest, pigheadedness... call it what you will. Some, perhaps, voted in the hope that some form of reconciliation would occur before the convention. But my feelings are that none of us who voted had any valid expectation that our votes would actually be a potential deciding factor in the election, and if we had known that might be the case, there's no telling what the effect may have been.

I'm upset that the primary was meaningless. I'm upset that my state representatives went along with a plan they knew full well would result in my disenfranchisement. I'm upset that the DNC found no alternative but to carry out its threat. But I'll be more upset if what I view as an invalid primary ends up deciding the nomination. It just doesn't seem right to me, regardless of my candidate of choice.

EDIT: On reading your last post above this one, DrDan, it seems you're a Florida voter as well. But do you see the point I'm making? We knew from the start that the primary was meaningless. How can you count it now, after we voted with that knowledge?

[Waya]

22. The required number is, was and has been.......

2025, from the beginning of this Cycle. Why this constant blurring of the lines? This constant attempt of new tweaking, manipulating, shuffling and rearranging of numbers that, strangely, never add up to the desired result? Why this compulsive need to change the rules half way thru the game?
It's pathetic, pityful and shows a profound desperation. Hillary really oughta preserve some pride and dignity, for heaven's sake.

[DrDan]

28. and where is Dean - if it is 2025, he should be clearing it up

Dean has lost control. or perhaps has never had control to lose.

[Kittycat]

29. He hasn't lost control - Hillary is just running as a republican.

[Waya]

30. What you need Dean for?

The number has been 2025 from the start. There is nothing to clear up - it has been clear to everyone who has paid the slightest attention - and that includes Hillary!!! If she didn't know then I must say that she is a lot dumber than I thought - and I never thought of her as a stupid woman. No, this is her newest ploy to weedle something she hasn't earned - she needs to get over it, the dumb 'but I didn't know' bit is very unbecoming.

[DrDan]

37. Dean himself has said the delegates would be seated

and will they count 50%???

Dean needs to get this resolved.

[jsamuel]

3. Don't be surprised if people don't count the 20 yard line as a touchdown.

The Obama campaign set their goal at 2025, but if Michigan and Florida are seated, that will be the 20 yard line.

[WeDidIt]

5. This way, they will claim Obama isn't the winner when he is.

It's pretty transparent.

It won't work, either, because the media is tuned into the 2025 number and won't change the perception on what it takes to win after Obama wins.

[Triana]

20. Yep. Odd how she started floating the 2209 meme TODAY, isn't it? n/t

[gkhouston]

34. And what will they do when she loses even by this metric? n/t

[Cosmocat]

41. You think ...

you mean the way they call her on the whole "I have the popular vote" thing ???

she says is it loud and often enough and they will move the bar back for her ...

[thewiseguy]

8. They can count whatever they wish to count.

[wileedog]

9. Turn those machines back on!!!!

[bunnies]

10. Sorry Hillary. This isnt the Clintoncrat party.

You dont get to make the rules no matter how hard to wish you could.

[Captain Hilts]

11. She's right to count Fla. but wrong to even consider Michigan. nt

[swishyfeet]

25. Hill had 98% name recognition

(read it in some other post here today)

Without campaigning there, few others had a chance. The rules are what they are for a reason.

We all feel bad about what happened, but three wrongs don't make a right. The Florida and Michigan delegates will be seated when it's all wrapped up.

[dbmk]

27. No campaigning is a gift to the etablishment/name recognition candidate

Any election where there is no campaigning allowed - and even worse: Where its announced that it doesn't count - isn't right to count anywhere, anyhow.

[City Lights]

12. She thought wrong.

You're pathetic, Hillary. :eyes:

[CakeGrrl]

13. They just make this sh*t up as they go, don't they?

I've never seen anything like it. Shameless.

:crazy:

[flpoljunkie]

14. Moving the goal posts yet again. MSNBC is playing along, as well, repeating this meme.

[PassingFair]

17. WhatEVER!

[Triana]

18. Clinton Makes up her Own Rules as she goes along...

...and expects everyone else to follow. Where will the she move the goalposts when there's nowhere else to move them?

"I thought 2209 was the number" - is passive-aggressive pretentious manipulation. (ie: bullshit)

SHE "THOUGHT" no such thing. SHE AGREED that MI and FL delegates would not be seated. Thus, she had to have KNOWN the number is 2025.

[jenmito]

19. She states as FACT that she is winning in the popular vote.

So do her surrogates.

[4themind]

36. Where are the obama surrogates debunking this nonsense?

otherwise it becomes an echo chamber

[jenmito]

40. They respond when asked about it, but they never bring it up on their own.

I wish they would!

[Renew Deal]

21. Hillary can say whatever she wants

The accepted number is 2025. Once Obama reaches it, the SD's move to him completetly. Then FL and Michigan are seated and Obama hits 2209 anyway.

[burythehatchet]

24. BREAKING: Hillary decleares India a united state, declares they have 2000

delegates. Plans to push the rules committee to adopt her position.

[Dbdmjs1022]

31. It's a good thing that every SANE member of the party knows that the finish line is 2025.

[bluestateguy]

32. She can have her math, and we can have THE math

nt

[madrchsod]

35. nuclear option.....we she use it ?

will here supporters on the rules committee let her?

[last1standing]

38. If Obama gets 2025 delegates and still loses the nomination I will no longer be a Democrat.

And I will work hard to ensure that everyone I know moves to a third party with me.

If Hillary likes rough and tumble politics then she has to expect that others will call her to the mat.

[Ganja Ninja]

52. You won't be alone. n/t

[Dr.Phool]

39. They did teach us about imaginary numbers in high school.

And imaginary friends in the mental ward.:evilgrin:

:silly: :crazy: :crazy: :silly: :crazy: :crazy: :silly:

[WeDidIt]

47. But that's the sqaure root of negative one!

LOL

[Texas Hill Country]

46. as she should

[IDemo]

50. What about France? What about Poland?

Don't they count?