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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:09 AM
Original message
Why Clinton will Go On to the Convention
Edited on Fri May-09-08 08:14 AM by kennetha
First she is going to win at least three of the remaining primaries and she is going to win them decisively. West Virginia and Kentucky are going to cement her argument that Obama can't win blue collar whites. Puerto RIco is going to demonstrate that Obama has a ways to go with Hispanics.

Second, Florida and Michigan will be seated and his lead in pledged delegates will be down below 100.

Third there's the Jimmy Carter argument. In 1980, Ted Kennedy, who had only 1/3 of the delegates, had his name put in nomination at the covention and gave a rip-roaring speech, that was meant to turn the convention in his favor. THe issue before the floor was whether to allow pledge delegates to vote their conscience on the first ballot. The Kennedy forces lost. And Carter went on to get creamed in the general election. Though Carter blames Kennedy for his defeat. It pretty clear that Carter was an extremely weak candidate and probably would have lost anyway. Would Kennedy have won? Who knows but it would have been a much different race. We wouldn't have had to defend Carter's sorry record, at least.

What's the connection here to Clinton-Obama? Well, Clinton is making a case against Obama kind of like the case that Kennedy was making against Carter -- that he's an extremely weak general election, despite his lead in the democratic primary. We didn't have the means to avoid marching off a cliff in 1980, but subsequent to that we gave ourselves that means. Clinton is urging the superdelegates to employ that means and to give her one last set of opportunities to demonstrate just how weak Obama really is. A presumptive nominee does not lose a swing state like West Virginia by 40 points. A presumptive nominee who gets blown out after he's all but declared the victor is a very, very weak presumptive nominee. And if he can't wrap up his own party because he can't wrap up swing voters who vote in democratic primaries, how is he possibly going to reach the broader base of swing voters he needs to win the general election?


Fourth. Even if she doesn't succeed in getting the nomination, she consolidates her position as titular head of the Clinton wing of the democratic party -- which is something like 49.5% of the party at least. With that standing, she gets first dibs at the VP slot, if she wants it. She gets massive influence over the platform. And, if he gets defeated in 08 -- which I think is very likely -- she becomes the automatic heir apparent, the nominee in waiting for 2012. Indeed, by losing, but staying in, she makes Obama need her more than she needs him. She will have already lost the nomination in this scenario and she will have nothing else to lose. He will have an election to win or lose and he won't be able to win it without her help. Moreover, if he loses the election the "Obama Wing" of the party will fracture and will need to regroup around some other candidate come 2012.

For all those reasons, there is simply no way that Clinton is dropping out. There is no way she won't have her name put in nomination at the Convention. And there is no way that she plays the nice conciliatory loser and goes away quietly. This is high-stakes power politics, played at the highest possible level. That's something the Clintons do with great skill!
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Boz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. TWO WORDS, no money.
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Money can't buy ya love. Go Hill Go. /nt
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. She could win WV
in a walk just by showing up in the state. She doesn't need a lot of money. Plus TV is CHEAP in WV.

She'll get 70% of the vote without breaking much of a sweat. It will demonstrate that there is a DEEP resistance to Obama among certain crucial democratic constituencies.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. new codeword alert:: "certain crucial democratic constituencies"
If you truly are a Democrat, don't you find it totally repulsive that a Democratic candidate for the nomination is overtly resorting to race baiting to win the nomination? I mean, isn't that the antithesis of everything that defines a "Democrat"?

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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Goodness what nonsense
Now we can't even speak the truth and describe the different electoral coalitions that our candidates have put together and how we get from these two fractured coalitions and knit together a winning coalition.

We can't even speak simple descriptive truths around here anymore.

Jeepers!
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SeaLyons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. race baiting.....I guess that applies to anything and
everything said these days. Unbelievable. I'm sure a very large portion of America is getting really sick of it too.
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marylanddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #21
39. Thank you. Absolutely repulsive whatever the phrase du jour
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
50. aka "Bush Country"
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Give it a rest already she is not taking it to the convention
Some of you all need to begin to accept the fact Hillary will not win.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Want to bet?
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. Y'all are delusional. If Obama is the nominee (and he is - check your math) HE picks the VP -
it does not have anything to do with Hillary appointing herself a "titular head" of anything. I have said for a long time that I expect her to be scratching at the podium when Obama is being sworn in as our next president.

It's fine to be dogged and determined. It is another thing when you go off the deep end and can't face reality. Hillary needs to get a grip and realize she will not be the nominee. It is completely due to her own behavior (and terribly bad behavior it has been) that she has put herself in this position. Why in the world would Obama pick a VP who announced to the world that she and the republican are ready to lead the country, but he is not?

It is over. Over.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'll bet you almost anything
Edited on Fri May-09-08 08:19 AM by kennetha
That Obama turns to Clinton as his potential VP. She may not accept it. Remember Ford and Reagan in 76? How they met at the convention and discussed the VP slot -- with Reagan insisting on a co-presidency, in effect. It didn't work out, in the end. But they talked and talked.

Clinton will hold a large part of Obama's fate in her hands. If she takes a hike in November, he's almost certain to lose. If he wants her voters, and her enthusiastic support, he asks her to be his VP.

I know you Obama supporters think that somehow Obama has the power by the force of his rhetoric and/or personality to snap his fingers and change politics forever. But politics is still politics. It's still about managing the correlation of electoral forces.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. I certainly hope not. I would love a female president but this time the best candidate happens to
be male. I do think Obama needs to pick a white moderate male, ideally with military experience, to go up against McCain. Honestly, Hillary had high negatives to start with. There's no way moderates will vote for her - she pulls the ticket down. Obama would be making a huge mistake by pairing with her.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
53. ok what shall we bet?
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. Hillary as VP is total dead weight for Obama...and he'll lose if he picks her.
The End
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. THe woman who
-carried at least 49% of the democratic electorate

-polls better against John McCain than Obama does in just about every swing state

Is a "total dead weight?"


The only people who would object are hardcore Obama supporters still bitter over a hard fought contest. But that's silly, immature stuff. THat's not real politics. In the real world of brass knuckle politics, a presidential candidate who is fought to nearly a standstill by his opponent, especially when the opponent has an enthusiastic and determined base, simply HAS to offer the VP slot to the loser.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. Right ... in states where Republicans were messing with the vote (like Texas)
Obama is smarter than that - he will go with his best chance to win. I'm hoping it's Wesley Clark.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Hillary IS his best chance to win!
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
43. Correction: she did not say she was ready to lead the country.

She said McCain definitely was and that she believed she might be. She actually endorsed McCain over herself!

And she obviously isn't going to help the Democrat in this election. Which of the following two statements is worse:

"Get bad grades and you may get (us) stuck in Iraq."

"hard working Americans, white Americans"


How many Democrats would say the first is disgusting, while the second is okay?


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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. About regrouping for 2012...
If Hillary keeps on going negative on Obama all the way up to and during the convention, and he still wins the democratic nomination but then loses the general by a close margin, who do you think will get the blame?
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Obama wil get the blame
nobody --- except Carter -- blamed Carter's defeat on Kennedy.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well said...recommended.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. Sorry, that's simply fantasy. She's toast. Done. Out of money
and behind in every measure. SDs are flocking to Obama and he'll be at 2025 without MI and FL being settled. Too bad.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. SD's aren't exactly flocking
More like a trickle.

And it will slow after Obama loses WV by 40 points.
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Doityourself Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Sigh...it's over..she won't win..just embrace the future...it will probably be painful intially but
Edited on Fri May-09-08 08:26 AM by Doityourself
you will adjust.

I promise.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Try showing me the flaw in my argument
I just made an argument that Hillary will go to the Convention -- like Kennedy before her, like Hart before her, like losing candidates often do.

Is there some flaw that you see in that argument?
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Doityourself Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. I'm a compassionate person...so here...where are you?
The stages Kubler-Ross identified are:Denial (this isn't happening to me!)

Anger (why is this happening to me?)

Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)

Depression (I don't care anymore)

Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. He netted 15 in the last four days, kenneth
that's more than a trickle. They won't slow because of his losing in West Virginia, and after Oregon, the Pelosi Club of 9 or more will endorse. She's done. Get the fork.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
52. if she continues her dog and pony show
He will clinch before WV. She is pissing off the party at this point the fact that they are now refusing to return her phone calls is all you need to know.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. Pay my debts, or I'll make life difficult for all of you. nt
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Doityourself Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. Hilda is burning more bridges as we speak...her own man hyper Terry said it will be over in June...
Edited on Fri May-09-08 08:24 AM by Doityourself
It's over. It ain't going to the convention.

Oh and she's broke and she can only give herself so much more.

finally, it's a beautiful day when the Clinton's are done in...it couldn't have happened to a nicer couple.

Ok, flame away...
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. It sounds like you are in the Denial phase of the grieving process
It'll take time, but eventually you'll reach acceptance.
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Doityourself Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yep...The stages Kubler-Ross identified are:


Denial (this isn't happening to me!)

Anger (why is this happening to me?)

Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)

Depression (I don't care anymore)

Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
23. Fantasy
she will have NO power over Obama, and choosing her for Veep would be like choosing a sucking head wound..

The man is no fool, but she is, and I'm still amazed at how many she's fooled into suspending their very Reality..

Its not healthy to live in a Fantasy World, bub..

Sorry, she's lost, she's gone, checkmate, game over, game set match.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
25. She gets no 'dibs' at the VP slot

This is not a game. There is no consolation prize or silver medal. After Sen. Obama becomes the nominee, it is up to him and his advisors to make the best choice for a running mate, and I trust them with the task.

Regardless of whether "she plays the nice conciliatory loser and goes away quietly" or not, her time is over.

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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Get serious
Of course, she will get first dibs at the nomination!
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. Your understanding of the process is evidently limited
Edited on Fri May-09-08 08:47 AM by IDemo
"Get serious" means to cease entertaining fantasy. I suggest you follow your own advice.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
27. Four points
Edited on Fri May-09-08 08:34 AM by davidpdx
First, I'm not sure where you get off saying West Virginia is a swing state. Gore lost it by 6.33% in 2000, Kerry lost it by over 10% in 2004.

Here is a list of states based on how close they were in 2004 from Wikipedia:

Close states

States where margin of victory < 5%

Wisconsin, Kerry, 0.38%
Iowa, Bush, 0.67%
New Mexico, Bush, 0.79%
New Hampshire, Kerry, 1.37%
Ohio, Bush, 2.11%
Pennsylvania, Kerry, 2.50%
Nevada, Bush, 2.59%
Michigan, Kerry, 3.42%
Minnesota, Kerry, 3.48%
Oregon, Kerry, 4.16%
Colorado, Bush, 4.67%

States where margin of victory < 10%

Florida, Bush, 5.01%
New Jersey, Kerry, 6.68%
Washington, Kerry, 7.18%
Missouri, Bush, 7.20%
Delaware, Kerry, 7.60%
Virginia, Bush, 8.20%
Hawaii, Kerry, 8.75%
Maine, Kerry, 8.99%
Arkansas, Bush, 9.76%
California, Kerry, 9.95%

No where on that list is West Virginia.

Second, the nominee has the discretion to pick who they run with. Period! Enough of the, "if you don't pick Clinton we'll vote for McCain" crap.

Third, the same recycled arguments about Obama being unelectable are pure garbage. We've seen them over and over again on here. If Hillary is so electable, why can't she win more states? Quiz question: From Feb 6th to Mar 3rd how many states did Hillary Clinton win? The answer is zero. Why do I bring that up? Because this was the time period in which Hillary Clinton's campaign went dark.

Fourth, being out of money and over $10 million in debt sends a message to your supporters and vendors. If they were smart, they would quit before it gets worse.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Bill Clinton carried WV twice
So the right kind of democrat can carry WV. That makes it a swing state.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Your living in the past
That was 12 years ago. Welcome to my ignore list.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I take that as a compliment.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. WOW!!! When did Bill Clinton decide to run for president in 2008?
:eyes:

Bill Clinton is NOT Hillary Clinton - nuff said!
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
32. Michigan and Florida will NOT be reseated until Hillary is out
Those states fucked up by ignoring the rules set out for the primaries AND Hillary broke her promise to not campaign in those states for the primaries.

Those 2 states will vote in the primaries but one of 2 things will happen:

Either Hillary will quit the race and then they'll be seated or
They will be seated conditionally in a way that won't give influence over either candidate
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. Of course she will stay in
She doesn't give a rats ass about Dems winning in 08, and she wants to take everyone down with her. If she can't have the presidency, no Dem can. Plus, she is working towards 2012 and that will only be a possibility if McCain wins in 08.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Agreed that's her motive, but there is zero chance of her gaining the nod in 2012
She has burned all the bridges and sprayed the tarmac with sniper fire. If she wants to remain as delusional then as she is now, that's her problem.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. She would start out with a base of about
49.5% of the party who could say "I told you so" to those who had gone for Obama. She would be the odds on favorite of winning the nomination -- especially if she wasn't his VP. She would be in no way associated with his loss.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. She might get the nod in 2012.

If everybody else stays home. If Obama loses this year I might be willing to let the DLC get their asses handed to them by McCain in 2012.

Sort of a reverse '68/'72 situation. Following the party Liberal/Conservative split in '68 we ran the Conservative candidate first, then the Liberal candidate second. The second, running against an incumbent, got waxed even worse than the first. And we have been living with the belief it was because that candidate was Liberal, not because of the split, ever since.

So '08/'12 could have a reverse effect. If we lose a squeaker this year, then Hillary loses 40+ states in '12, we might see decades of blaming '12 on nominating a Conservative.


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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
44. WV and KY are red states and they aren't that big
They do not matter per Clinton's own standards. As to Puerto Rico, let us know when they get electoral votes. The race has been over since February but the Clinton campaign just fails to notice it.

She doesn't get "first dibs" at the VP slot. I would seriously question Obama's judgment if he chose her as VP. (Just as a I was baffled by Kerry choosing John Edwards.)
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Puerto Rico? Why in the hell can they vote in the primary
but not in the GE? This makes no sense to me. It's a moot cause.
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
45. Of course she'll go to the convention - As a Senator, she's a super delegate n/t
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Musty Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
48. Why do you Hillaryites insist that
Obama is such a weak candidate? He's gotten more votes than Hillary! And what makes you think that in the GE that Obama can't get most of the support of those Dems who voted for Hillary?
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
49. My prediction: Obama will win Puerto Rico. n/t
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
51. I think the decisive wins are a little premature
The MSM is now pounding her every bit as hard as they were Obama over wright if not worse. She has no cash. I dont think this will be a very good week for Hilary's numbers.

As far as the broad base for the election thats another false argument. Mcsame is going dow like a house of bricks the american people are sick of the republicans this time arround and Obama is more than acceptable to the majority of them.
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