I don't think Hillary Clinton is a racist.

[Mooney]

Not any more than Obama is an elitist. I think that in both cases, Obama chose his words poorly for the "bitter" comment, and by the same token, Hillary Clinton chose her words poorly when she was discussing her base of support among blue-collar/middle class voters. But I don't believe that she's a racist.

Obama fucked up when he made his comment. What he said was true, and I don't see anything elitist in the point that he was trying to make, but he should have known better than to phrase it the way that he did, and so he just had to take his lumps for that one and chalk it up to experience. By the same token, Hillary should have known better than to use the language that she did when she was making her point. I know that it's a double standard, that non-white politicians can talk about their performance among voters of their own ethnicity and nobody cares. But the hard fact is that you cannot be a white politician and talk about the white vote, using that language, without sounding like David Duke to a lot of people. Yes, it's a double standard, but people are going to react to it the way that they're going to react to it, and it won't be pretty.

So just like Obama, she should have known better than to use the language that she did, and she's just going to have to take her lumps for it. But I don't believe that she's racist.

[zanne]

1. Maybe she just plays one on TV. nt

[lisa58]

2. I don't think she is either....

...but do you really think that Obama running against McCain would really keep Hillary voters away or they would jump to McCain?

That is what she is saying, that white people WILL NOT vote for Obama.

Either she doesn't trust her supporters to be democrats and vote democratic values and policies, or she's saying her supporters are racists.

[Mooney]

33. I think that the threat of voting for McCain if HRC doesn't get the nom is a bunch of bullshit.

The most strident people making that claim will probably just not vote. That's not a whole lot better, but I can't imagine anyone who's seriously invested in Hillary Clinton as a candidate would actually leave the house and stand on line at the polls to vote for him. Protest votes are almost always for fringe candidate, or they're abstentions. I just don't believe that a lot of people vote for the other party solely out of spite.

[EFerrari]

3. The difference is that Obama made a mistake where

the Clinton campaign has used the race issue as a wedge for months. Maybe Clinton did misspeak. But, it happened in the context of the choices her campaign has made, not in isolation.

[PurityOfEssence]

22. Nobody's cynically invoked race for personal gain like Obama did in South Carolina

The "40 Days of Faith" Cavalcade was a deeply cynical playing of the race and religion cards to remind the majority of Dem voters that he was "one of us". It was naked, nasty, and played for all it was worth. No political move was as blatant in its personal opportunism, and the only reasons this hasn't gotten more attention are that it makes many uneasy to even bring it up and that it was overshadowed by the unintended bigotry of Donnie McClurkin.

People may revel in the subtle way he wrapped himself in Jesus' cloak and drowned out any criticism with the joyous glee of religious beauty, but it was just plain ugly to the bone. People may claim that it was "inclusive" and "empowering", but it was xenophobic and cheap.

(edited for grammar)

[EFerrari]

You must be joking. Or, you must not know what xenophobia means. n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

46. Xenophobia is PRECISELY the right word

The point here is that religions create an "us" and a "them". Xenophobia isn't merely a dislike of foreigners, but of others who are different.

Look it up in your Funk and Wagnall's and learn a little something.

This is one of the reasons why religion tends to be conservative: it's inherently anti-pluralist. Even religions that are more tolerant of heathens than others STILL have the mindset of "us" and "them", and no matter what chripy denials are made, the feeling of aristocracy remains. "We" are correct, "our" pronouncements are backed up by the one true whatever and automatically win and "your" words are inferior.

People wonder why there's so much bigotry in religion. It shouldn't be such a mystery; the very core of the mindset of most religions IS bigotry.

[EFerrari]

53. So, you've morphed your issue from race to religion

and not very well, at that.

Whatever your beef is, you obviously need to hold onto it no matter the assault to reason. Please, continue.

[TheDebbieDee]

28. It was a statement of fact. There are some white people who

will not vote for black person for President. Just as there are other segments of the American demographic that will not vote for a woman for President.

I wish we could all just stop trying to kill the messenger for delivering the bad news that nobody wants to hear/believe.

[EFerrari]

34. I have no trouble hearing or believing racism exists in this country.

But for Clinton to point to a group of racists voters AS IF THEIR POSITION IS A POSITIVE THING, is destructive, cynical and divisive. Not even Nixon did that.

[MonkeyFunk]

58. So it's true

but she's not allowed to say so?

It's not her campaign platform, it's an argument being made to superdelegates. And she didn't say white people wouldn't vote for a black candidate - she pointed out that she does better with a particular demographic. It's silly to act like it's taboo to discuss demographics.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

4. No she isn't a racist but she has been badly advised

I wonder why she took a chance to say what she said?

[Mooney]

48. It wasn't a risk.

She's completely tone-deaf and I don't believe that she's the sort of person who weighs decisions very seriously, in terms of what kind of "blowback" they'll have.

I think that she gets so focused on one thing to the exclusion of all else, that she just blurts out stupid shit and never stops to consider that it might have consequences that could bite her on the ass later. In this case, it was for the purpose of selling her candidacy as still viable somehow. I think if you look at it in the context of the constantly shifting rationales for why she's "more electable," then it's completely consistent with a pattern of just saying whatever the rationale of the hour is for staying in the race. To her, I think it's just another variation on "I win bigger states." It's just another in a long line of bullshit rationales that she's throwing at the wall to see what sticks.

So again, I don't think it's racism so much as desperation and opportunism, couched in terminology that most people would interpret as racist.

[virtualobserver]

5. she is not a racist.....she is just someone who uses race to divide us for her own benefit

there is no double standard. Obama does not talk about race in these terms. A comparable statement by Obama would be, "Hillary can't get the black vote"

[BlooInBloo]

8. Racist is as racist does.

[virtualobserver]

11. more like a mob boss....it's just business

[dchill]

27. My thoughts exactly.

It's one of those differences that make no difference.

[BlooInBloo]

6. Gotta love false equivalences.

[Mooney]

15. I'm just trying to be evenhanded.

They both misspoke, and they both have to pay the price for it.

If there is a difference, it's in how Hillary was only too happy to hammer away at Obama's comments, while Obama has been completely silent about Hillary's words. He may have misspoken when he did, but he's certainly smart enough to know not to get in the middle of Hillary's own self-inflicted wounds.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Way to be Fair and Balanced. Quite admirable.

[Mooney]

30. I certainly think she said the wrong thing.

But I've never seen anything in her political or public history to suggest that she favors racist policies. I've never heard her appeal for votes by running ads like Jesse Helms used to run, that said that white people were losing their jobs to less qualified black applicants because of affirmative action. I've never heard her say anything to suggest that she believes that black people are inferior to white people, genetically or otherwise. I mean, I'm not saying that the bar for being racist is that you must assassinate Medgar Evers, but I think it's worth noting her entire history and taking all that into account, as opposed to writing her off as racist based on one thing that she said.

I personally took those remarks more as indicative of a mindset that's completely and simplistically obsessed with voter demographics. I always hear from Hillary supporters (not all of them, but some) that Asians vote this way and Hispanics vote this way but college-educated blacks under 45 vote this way, but Jews in Florida vote this way, etc., etc. I'm sure you'll agree that it's much more complicated then that, and one of the things that's tripped up her campaign is her refusal to think outside of those demographic spreadsheets.

[virtualobserver]

23. as sandnsea pointed out below, Hillary's attack was just another divisive attempt

[BlooInBloo]

36. I'm not a member of the "it's not racist unless they say 'nigger' " club...

Instead, I belong to the Racist Is As Racist Does club. People who use racist tactics are ipso facto racists.


EDIT: So, presumably, I disagree with sandnsea.

[virtualobserver]

39. it is functional racism, but they would use anything.....race is convenient in this case

it's just about her.

[Mooney]

42. Yup.

Race was the closest available blunt instrument.

[Mooney]

44. I'm not a member of that club either.

Pat Buchanan never says that, but he's racist as fuck. I think anybody with an IQ over 100 can see that.

But I don't see any evidence that Hillary Clinton favors racist policies, or that she views blacks as inferior to whites, or that she would take race into account when hiring. In that sense I wouldn't say that she's racist.

Maybe where you and I differ is whether we view her as racist as opposed to opportunist. I view her as a shameless opportunist and panderer, and I see her as having no problem exploiting a racist dynamic if she believes it will benefit her somehow. But like I said, I don't see her personally as racist. Opportunistic, yes.

[BlooInBloo]

47. "I don't see any evidence..." Well there you go then.

[Mooney]

49. Why don't you show me where I'm wrong?

What racist policies has she advanced, or shown that she favors? Do you know of any instances that show that she believes that blacks are genetically inferior to whites? Do you see any evidence that she would take race into account when hiring, or that she would hire white applicants for a job over more qualified black candidates, on the basis of their race?

[ccharles000]

7. Hillary is a wonderful person and loves us all.

[lisa58]

9. you're soooo sweet to her...

...I admire your admiration.

[BlooInBloo]

10. hahahha!

[EFerrari]

21. In her idealized self regard and perhaps, in yours. n/t

[Kahuna]

55. Yes. She's a beautiful fairy princess who just wants what's best for us all..

:puke:

[I LUV DEM]

me too

[reflection]

12. I don't either.

But I think she uses the dynamic of others' racism to further her goals. Which I guess would make her a quasi-racist, if there is such a thing.

[Mooney]

16. It's opportunism.

If she can make hay out of it, she will.

[sandnsea]

13. Hillary exploited Obama's words to divide

just like she's exploiting racial prejudice to divide. Obama was trying to create understanding. That's the difference.

[virtualobserver]

18. good point...that slipped my mind......god, what a disgusting campaign

[bhikkhu]

14. How long has this gone on now without a statement from her?

When she as a leader makes divisive and racially charged statements she is responsible to either clarify or retract her arguments. Saying nothing is taken as admission that appearances are accurate, and her supporters may follow the leader from there.

[Mooney]

20. She never apologizes for anything.

But that's a different issue.

I think she could have gone a lot further in this race if she had displayed even the slightest bit of humility or remorse for her mistakes, but that's just not how she rolls. I really think she views apologizing or acknowledging her flaws as a sign of weakness.

[bhikkhu]

37. It would be a good quality of leadership for her to realize...

many people look up to her and take her behavior as "setting the tone" for their own. Patience is not always easy, but she still has time to do the right thing, and to positively lead those who have supported her as this winds down.

Lacking that we may have a "Lord of the Flies" thing going on with a minority of the party...

[TahitiNut]

19. George Wallace wasn't a racist either, so stop saying that.

:eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

25. LOL!

:spank:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Some of his best friends were blacks....as long as they kept in their place.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. The Clintons patronize the Blacks and pander to the whites.

They play the "good master" trying to "help" the poor black folks while reassuring the whites that they are better than the blacks.

[dchill]

32. Oh, I think they are equal opportunity ...

patronizers and panderers. Not to mention that they are the true elitists in this triptych.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. agreed.

[quantass]

31. Agreed, not a racist but she is out to win BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. Not fit for CIC

[Mooney]

38. I would agree with that statement.

I don't think she herself is racist, but if she can exploit a racist dynamic for as much as one single vote, she'll do it.

[crankychatter]

35. it doesn't matter if she's a racist or not

she's capitalizing on racial issues to undermine an election

she is or isn't a racist... who cares?

she IS OK with racism...she wants it to help her...that's quite enough.

[atufal1c]

40. The Clinton's are NOT NOT NOT racist.

But their campaign is terrible. I know she was in trouble when she let some reporter talk her into saying something that could even be PERCEIVED as dissing MLK. No eighth-grader running for class president would have gone down THAT road.

I think they truly believe that Clinton is going to lose the nomination and then Obama is going to lose the GE due to racism.

So we all lose the White House. And The SC.

But I think she's wrong. Obama needs more white support, no question. But he'll get it. Part of the reason he's not getting it right now is because SHE'S getting it. If Obama didn't have a real chance in the general, there is no way he would have gotten this far. He's ahead in every metric.

And McCain is weak. People are STILL voting for Huckabee over McCain in double-digits weeks after he dropped out. McCain will be driven further right (see his abortion flip today) and he'll lose some of those pissed-off Clinton supporters and independents. While still losing some of the true right-wingers.

So if Obama is going to lose, then so would Hillary. Maybe the HRC campaign thinks that certain white democrats won't vote their interests, but I do. I might not have believed it two years ago, but I believe it now, with this candidate.

And this Obama campaign...what can I say? It is going to be a business school case study. I used to scoff when people wondered how Hillary could better run the country when she couldn't better run her campaign.

But no more.

The contrast is too great.

What is the purpose of experience if it doesn't translate into results?

[Mooney]

43. "What is the purpose of experience if it doesn't translate into results?"

It allows a campaign to craft a bullshit narrative about itself, and the Clinton campaign, as I think we've seen, is about nothing so much as creating bullshit narratives in the hope that enough people will buy into them to get them 50.0001% of the vote.

[invictus]

41. Hillary stirs up racist sentiment for advantage in her campaign against a black man.

Does that make her a racist? In my opinion, yes.

[Mooney]

45. To me that makes her an opportunist, not necessarily a racist.

But we're splitting hairs at this point. And it's not like opportunism is a particularly admirable quality either.

[Skip Intro]

50. She's not a racist as much as the melodramatic Obama supporters here would like it to be so.

[Mooney]

52. You don't see anything objectionable in what she said?

Whether she's racist or not, as soon as you go on about the white vote, you're going to piss a lot of people off. Don't you at least see where she might have had it coming for using the language that she did?

[Skip Intro]

56. I think she was discussing a segment of the voting population, much like the 90% support for Obama

from the AA community is discussed, has been discussed, to no end.

I know many Obama supporters start from the premise that anyone white not supporting Obama must be a racist. Through that prism, everything must look racist to them.

Barack has said that Hillary cannot get his voters. Was that racist?

The media has for months talked about voting blocks in regards to race. They have used the words the African American vote and the white vote. And they break down the numbers along those lines ust like they do along gender lines, education lines, age lines - the campaigns look at these nubmers too, both do. This is not racist, it is politics. Looking at the vote, and the makeup of states and regions in all of those areas has been done for decades.

No, I don't think she deserves any of the vile hatred that has been on display in this forum for months from the keyborads of those supposedly peddling hope and change.

[Mooney]

59. Well, once again, I said that I don't think she's racist.

And I don't know that many Obama supporters start from the premise that anyone white not supporting Obama must be a racist. Maybe I haven't been talking to the right people. But I don't believe that anyone white not supporting Obama must be a racist, any more that I believe that anyone male not supporting Hillary Clinton must be a sexist. I'm sure people like that exist, but I don't believe that to be the case with the majority of voters.

I think you need to look at it as a question of language and how certain words or phrases or subject matter can be offensive, sometimes explosively offensive, regardless of the intentions of the person saying it. If I called a black person "colored," it would offend them. If I called an Asian person a "Chinaman" it would be offensive to them. My intentions, no matter how good they may have been, would be hopelessly obscured by the language that I used.

[WeDidIt]

51. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt...again...

then her surrogates made the argument that white people won't vote for a black man on LArry King last night.

The pattern is too stark to ignore. From Bill Shaheen to the candidate herself, the race card has been played time and time and time and time and time again.

It can no longer be ignored.

[Window]

54. True, but Obama had a reasonable expectation of privacy while

speaking at house party in his honor. Hillary, on the other hand, was giving a telephone press interview amd should have chosen her words more carefully.

I'm not excusing either. I know there was no malice in Obama's words.

I don't think Hillary is really a racist, but I think she knows plenty who are, and I really think she feels deep down Obama cannot win the GE because he is Black.

[Raineyb]

57. I wouldn't say she's a racist

Racists are ignorant. Clinton knows better and exploits it for personal gain. That makes her worse.

Regards

[Hansel]

60. Yep, exactly. nt