Obama, ever heard of separation of church and state? "Obama Goes Fundie In Kentucky"

[2rth2pwr]

Back during last year’s Yuletide political season, Mike Huckabee took a fair bit of grief for allegedly inserting a subtle appeal to his fundamentalist faith in a television (ad).
Fast-forwarding to the present, we find Barack Obama having essentially clinched the nomination locked in a struggle to prove his electability.

How does he choose to go after the Appalachian Kentucky voters whose ethnic brethren have so rejected his candidacy?

Religion. http://politics.nashvillepost.com/2008/05/13/stations-of-the-cross-obama-goes-fundie-in-kentucky/

Doug Forrester has scanned in some very interesting mailers the Obama camp is circulating in Kentucky in hopes of appealing to men and women of faith.


edited 4 speline

[rucky]

1. or because they still think he's Muslim?

is more likely than the suggestion that he's a closet dominionist.

[TNOE]

6. Great photo

and great marketing. Nothing at all wrong with it if you are trying to convince morons that you are not a muslim and to appeal to those that are religious in a subtle way - rather than having him tell the people that God wants him to be president and that God picked him for the job.

I don't understand how people can have it both ways - he's a muslim and he spent 20 years in church listening to Rev. Wright.

[renegade000]

10. i think it is probably because

many people really don't know what islam is.

[papapi]

161. Have they had their head up their ass?

[MBS]

17. i also think this is smart, and appropriate. n/t

[Marrah_G]

22. yikes.

I thought that was one of his worst photos, and he generally photographs much, much better.

[rucky]

54. hey, I'm right here...

you can say it to my face...

|
|
V

[Freedom Train]

56. But if Hillary had done the same thing, she'd be "pandering", right?

:puke:

[PurityOfEssence]

51. Whether he's merely a compensationist or truly a fanatic, the implications are still depressing

Maybe he's just playing up his christianity to dispel the muslim rumors. If so, christian extremists will get even more of a toehold, and they don't let go.

Maybe he's just using religion for leverage and his belief isn't really that strong. If so, what does that say about the man's character? He's going to have to go so far to the religious side of things to appease the zealots that he will rubber-stamp ANYTHING Israel does, and not be able to reach any accord with muslim nations lest he appear to be a stealth muslim.

Maybe he REALLY believes the christian cosmic view to such a degree that it really does trump observable reality. The mind reels at what can come from that. He says he looks forward to a "collaboration with god" when in the White House, and this is disturbing for many reasons: one is that he puts himself on equal footing with the big whoseywhatzit, and the other is that policy may very well stem from this.

Maybe he just likes the handy dictatorial power one gets by appealing to the unquestionable. If so, we're simply at the mercy of whatever he sees fit to do.

He's a compensation candidate, and the only thing worse than a person with "something to prove" is a person with "something to disprove". Take your choice folks: Clinton has a version of the same problem and has to be tougher and more manly than anyone to disprove "feminine weakness". At least Clinton's compensation is in the REALM OF REALITY, instead of the dangerous emotional netherworld of religion. You can argue with reality; you can't argue with the supernatural.

I can't stand the general attitude of many people that religion isn't such a big deal. It's huge, and it's extremely dangerous. People who don't believe in an afterlife don't tend to do suicide bombings, and they're probably a bit less willing to push the proverbial button.

What are the two biggest stumblings Obama's made in this campaign? One is Wright, which is religion, pure and simple, and the other is the McClurkin affair, which is unintended collateral bigotry garnered from playing the race and RELIGION cards with the "40 Days of Faith" wingding to get the black vote in South Carolina. To date, the biggest disasters he's faced have been SPECIFICALLY because of his naked opportunism of using religion for tactical political gain.

Dangerous stuff this godliness...

[rucky]

52. Check out his appearance on the 700 Club...

It may sicken you at first, but if you really pay attention to the subtext... well, it's one of my favorites (I'm agnostic, btw), but you can draw your own conclusions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L_M837Llcw

[papapi]

163. ...a what? Closet dominionist? Did you make that up?

[MonkeyFunk]

2. two points

First, the "Separation of Church and State" has nothing at all to do with what candidates do, or what criteria voters use to evaluate candidates. They're all free to use religion or reject religion as much as they want.

Second, I wish more of them would reject it. It's divisive.

[scheming daemons]

3. Separation of Church and State has nothing to do with campaigning.... only governing...

[dana_b]

40. yeah, I guess he's trying to make a point - that he is Christian.

It could be a source of contention and/or misinformation in KY. I don't go for this kind of campaigning - I like religion out of politics - but I can see how important it is to some people and understand why he's doing it. Kind of creeps me out, to be honest. But what do I know? I'm just a mocha drinking, Honda driving, Bay Area living, liberal tree hugger. No Birkenstocks - although I hear they're very comfy.

[PurityOfEssence]

53. Ya gotta dance with him what brung ya

There's a problem of access that you're not addressing. If he plays the religion card endlessly and says that the tenets of the faith are to be the driving forces of one's actions, if he wins office, he can't withstand the aggressive encroachment that the darker forces of religion will demand.

They WILL demand them, by the way.

This will also make him less able to deal with muslim leaders.

[NJmaverick]

4. Not sure what Obama has done wrong, is trying to reach out for voters bad?

[Skip Intro]

11. Only if you are Hillary, evidently.

[TahitiNut]

24. Poor Hillary! It's such a burden! (Where's Dudley Doright when he's needed?)

:nopity:

[Skip Intro]

29. God, lol! The sarcasm and arrogance is starting to crack me up.

its sad but its funny

very engaging comment, tn.

[DemExpat]

65. Exactly.

DemEx

[rodeodance]

97. ah yes. obamafanspek. when o. does it is 'reaching out' when Hill does it is

'pandering'

[HCE SuiGeneris]

106. Y'all are just so f'n pathetic. New meme gets slated for the day, then about 10 of you parrot it

for the next 36 hours. It is transparent and and incredibly juvenile.

[Creideiki]

144. Obama's faith also tells him it's alright to discriminate against those Godless homos

I want to hear absolutely nothing about his faith until it tells him that all of God's children should be treated equally.

Oh, wait, that's not politically expedient.

[MethuenProgressive]

5. I remember way back in the old days of DU when we stood together against Fundis.

Way back in 2007.

[rodeodance]

it's Bush-lite now.

[MethuenProgressive]

20. Pandering to the homphobic wing via Donnie McClurkin was a LOUD dogwhistle

The Fundis all smiled, nodded, and wrote checks.

[cali]

16. Obama is obviously not a fundy and he has to fight the perception

that he's somehow not fully American and is a Muslim. If you're insinuating that he is a fundy, that's just absurd.

[Faygo Kid]

37. Exactly. Look at the comments in today's primary about him being Muslim.

He has got to counter that message; even with the Rev. Wright thing, there are still some who accuse him of being a Muslim. We sure have seen it in news coverage of West Virginia.

[enid602]

45. no fundie

No, but I've always felt the gospel preacher schpiel schtick is kind of like watching GWB do his Texas cowboy routine.

[cali]

46. the spurious comparison to bush is despicable and I've said that about

similar comparisons about Hillary. Just despicable.

[enid602]

50. comparison

You don't see the comparison? Two different political figures try to win the allegiance of their respective constituencies by adopting the language, accents and mannerisms of their adopted 'homes.' I was by no means trying to compare Barrack's agenda with Bush's, or infer that they are in any way alike in their politics, intelligence or ability to govern/lead.

[cali]

108. ridiculous. no, I dohn't see it at all because it's not there.

What on earth do you mean that Obama has adopted the language of his adopted home? How so? And really, do try and learn how to spell the name of the dem nominee.

[PurityOfEssence]

63. He's whatever the audience of the moment desires

and that's the big problem with him. He out-Hillaries Hillary with being all things to all people.

When he wants the dominionist vote, he talks religion. When he wants to not seem threatening, he slips in some sop to the non-religious.

He has actively brought up religion from the beginning of his campaign, and he does it in very fiery ways in the more religious climes.

What's your experience with the Church of Christ? Mine has been just passing involvement of friends and business associates in Central California and Kentucky, but my impression was that they were SERIOUS fire-and-brimstone types, right down to the roaring agony of hellfire. Perhaps this affiliation is just a handy one he can trot out when trying to curry favor with the extremists, but that's the impression many of us have of this particular sect.

He's the Pied Piper now, sweeping everyone along with his joyous crusade, but if he wins, he's going to have to pay the REAL piper, and that's where the trouble starts. How much more encroachment of "ceremonial deism" will there be? How much more funding for faith-based charities will there be? It's important to have ALL charities faith-based so we can ram it into people's heads that religion is necessary and the only good that ever flows flows from religion. It's important to remind people that "hope" and "faith" are the other two virtues along with "charity", and that they're inextricable. Religion is the cosmic trump-card: you never need to explain your actions when you can say that god approves of them.

Religion plays for keeps, and that's not good for us heathens.

[Irishonly]

69. I don't think you can judge a denomination by area

Obama is Untied Church of Christ and it's quite a bit more liberal in CA and other parts of the country. I am a Disciple of Christ and I honestly wouldn't recognize a DOC in some places. Both the UCC and DOCs have anti discrimination policies. It's followed in my church but in the south although it may be part of the doctrine it is ignored.

[Terran]

70. bullshit

Obama is a Christian whether that suits you or not (and I say that as a total non-believer myself). Any presidential candidate who fails to reach out to the broad American public *as* a Christian is begging to lose, because that's what people want to be assured of. How many times have you heard people say they like Bush because he's "such a good Christian"?

If this is pandering, then campaigning itself pandering.

[cali]

110. what nonsense. first of all I have a sibling who's UCC

and his church is very progressive- as are many UCC churches. Secondly, Obama has been steadily himself throughout the primaries. Your post is utterly ridiculous.

[DemVet]

90. He's either a Christian or he's not.

Fundamentalism, as applied to the Christian faith, is a media invention, just like this red state/blue state nonsense. (Someone had the audacity the other day to say the eventual Dem Nominee shouldn't concentrate on red states in the fall. I guess the status quo from 2000 and 2004 was fine with them.)

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Obama bringing up his faith.

[MethuenProgressive]

114. "Fundamentalism, as applied to the Christian faith, is a media invention"

Do the hundreds of churches with "Fundamentalist" in their names know this?

[rodeodance]

111. OBAMA does the O-HUCKABEE thingy.

[salbi]

23. Not all Christians are fundies

I think it's a great flyer, but then again, I am a Christian.

[Freedom Train]

59. Ah yes, but there is no togetherness when it comes to Obama

If the choice was between Obama and the Democratic Party, the Obots would jump ship to kneel at the feet of their Leader faster than you could say Donnieboy the Gaybasher.

[2rth2pwr]

61. It's true, they will contort themselves all over the place to to defend the deity that is Obama.

[durrrty libby]

75. No shit. Someone stick Bush's head on that photo and

and he would be vilified here

What a bunch of phonies and sellouts :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2rth2pwr]

85. December 2007, remember the cross in Huckabee's ad?

[MethuenProgressive]

87. That was the good ol' days, when we all were against that shit.

But now, some shit don't stink, so we're told.

[JerseygirlCT]

131. So any expression of religious belief now qualifies one as a "fundie" ? nt

[LSK]

150. that never happened and you know it

Those threads always went into flamewars.

[IA_Seth]

7. When in Rome...

It's not like Obama is stupid, he's playing to the KY base.

Campaigning and governing are as not the same thing either.

[xultar]

9. "he's playing to the KY base" aka pandering.

[TNOE]

48. Its not like he

"doesn't" go to church and has never been to church. Obviously - IT IS WHO HE IS - AND NOT PANDERING. I don't seem him pretending to be anything he isn't.

[ronnykmarshall]

105. That's only when Hillary does it.

This is a brave political move that is reaching out to church going voters that would normally vote republican and will now support Obama as they hop on the hopemobile and drive it to a landslide victory in November.

If Hillary did it.

That COW!!! I fucking hate her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Skip Intro]

8. That Obama sure is a chameleon, eh?

Bowling, feeding calves, God Warrior - he is the best blank slate ever.

I am so glad I never had any of that koolaid.

[GarbagemanLB]

14. Yeah, unlike Hillary Oakley downing shots of Crown Royal. She's worked the night shift!!! She

feels the pain of the hard-working whites.

[JimGinPA]

39. And Yet, Who's Playing The Coal Miner's Daughter This Week?

:eyes:

[Skip Intro]

42. I dont see her dancing a jig with a cross in one hand and a bible in the other.

Like I said - Obama is the best blank slate ever.

[graycem]

102. LOL!

She just changes her accent to suit her location. I just heard her utter the word --- sumpin' in her speech in WV. Country indeed.

[JimGinPA]

104. Whose Big Keister Was Filmed In A WV Church Pew On Mother's Day?

I'll give you a clue - pantsuit.

This OP is intended as flame bait and the usual Hillbots (gee, I don't think I've ever used that slur here before) pile right on clueless as ever.

[dchill]

72. Didn't I hear that she was...

originally from West Virginia? Wasn't she the "Mountain Mama" that John Denver sang about?
}(

[Radical Activist]

157. No, he used these themes for years and throughout the campaign.

He's no pandering Clinton.

[JimGinPA]

12. There's A Rat In Separation

:dunce:

[FSogol]

13. "ethnic brethren?" "Rejected candidacy?"

You'll never stop grasping at straws will you?

[countingbluecars]

15. Both Clinton and Obama

participated in the Compassion Forum at Messiah College where they talked about their faith. I wish it were not necessary, but it seems to be these days if a Democrat wants to get elected.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cant trust em]

19. I'm not going to be one of those religious hating liberals.

I'm not personally religious, but I'm not going to get on anyone else's case that is.

[tokenlib]

21. This is a great flyer..so I recommended the thread...

Barack Obama has his faith--he is not a fundamentalist. He tries to live his faith--very much a social gospel slant of seeing everyone as brother or sister.

Knowing his United Church of Christ background--they are a mainstream denomination--as mainstream as there is. So I am not threatened or concerned about this ad.

It is an overall positive ad.

[grantcart]

25. He has to fight the smear that he is Muslim

would it be alright for you that religion was used against him and that he not be able to respond?

[PurityOfEssence]

71. and if we become a theocracy because of it, it's okay because we OWE it to him

He's such an extraordinary creature that we should be proud of risking the very soul of our nation to do whatever he sees fit to do to overcome misconceptions about him?

It's not his fault that when his mother registered him for a catholic school many years ago she listed his religion as "muslim", but it's not mine either. Who is this guy that we must engage in EXTREMELY DANGEROUS social contortions to help him succeed?

Why he engenders such godlike adulation is beyond me, and the very flavor of this reverence gives me the willies.

This is HIS problem, and if he's going to give false hopes of access to near-rabid fundamentalists, he's going to cause endless problems. Turmoil just isn't my thing; sorry for the stodginess.

Once again, we do not OWE this guy anything. He OWES US. If he's going to be elected to the presidency, he owes us a huge debt, and those who've tried to do the job properly have aged frightfully and sacrificed their health to do so. This is not some kind of crowning of a prom king, this is an audition for the hardest part on earth and he is due the consideration of understanding but NOT the blank check of aristocracy.

[grantcart]

83. There is a lot of nonsense in your reply but none of it has to do with my response

any candidate who has sustained a prolonged attack on his religion, in this case that he is 1) not a Christian 2) that he is a member of a fanatical church has the right to respond to such attacks. Doing so does not mean that he has any interest in a 'theorcracy'.

[JerseygirlCT]

134. How the HELL do you go from a simple expression of personal

faith to a theocracy?

Seriously, what kind of warped reasoning takes you there?

[muryan]

135. You must have some bad acid

Because the guy has a picture with a cross in the background, we are going to become a theocracy? He has always been outspoken about his faith when asked about it. He is part of the conversation among evangelical christians concerning their role and identity in politics. People don't like to talk about poverty or social good because thats "marxism", but if you put in the context of biblical teaching, the people in this country lap it up. I'm not sure I see a problem

[Duke Newcombe]

148. One problem with your statement.

At the end of the day the President should represent and connect with ALL of us, not just those who voted for him, even if he might not agree with them. This includes that religious folks, too.

I fail to see how that ushers in a Theocracy. Don't break out your "Handmaid's Tale" clothing just yet.

Just saying.

Duke

[JerseygirlCT]

158. Agree with you

This also happens to be a country where a huge number of people claim to be people of faith - one faith or another.

That doesn't mean a candidate who also is religious is about to usher in theocracy. In fact, that anti-religious bias is something that harms our country, just as any other bias against a group of people does.

[tishaLA]

164. sen obama gave a long speech about faith

several years ago. Here he addresses the importance of the separation of church and state, but it's only one part of a a long speech. If you watch it, you will see how uninterested he is in theocracy or anything related to it.

[onehandle]

26. It's just politics. He's a centrist politician and this is what they do.

Tilt right or left to please the audience. This does not make him a fundie, but just another politician.

Hillary does the same. She's a centrist too.

On edit: However, if this flyer arrived in the mailboxes of my Liberal district, he'd have some explaining to do.

[2rth2pwr]

64. Rev. Wright made the same point about Obama.

Pissed Obama off to no end that someone would dare say that he does what politicians have to do.

[Joe the Revelator]

27. For a guy who's religion has been attacked all cycle..

I think this is a brilliant flyer.

[redqueen]

28. Pandering to racists vs. pandering to fundies... hmmmm...

[Pawel K]

30. I think at DU we are all smart enough to know what he is doing

is it disappointing? yes. But I find it ironic (or maybe hypocritical is the right word) that a Clinton supporter would try to use this to say we should vote for Hillary instead.

Again, Hillary's campaign for the last 3 months has been "look, he's just as bad as me". Hardly something I would want to vote for.

[PurityOfEssence]

84. Interesting point

It's always good to see a supporter concede a point when his/her candidate screws up or goes out of some bound, so thanks for that.

Yes, the tenor of her approach of late has been what you say, but that underlines a very interesting point: he claims to be above the "usual politics" and far too many of his supporters decry any evidence to the contrary. It's seen by some as "dragging him down to her level", but to many of the rest of us, it's refreshing reality: he's an often unscrupulous and calculated campaigner, and he's been as studiously pandering to all sides as she has over the years, much as he steadfastly portrays himself as true-blue in every way.

The lesson to be learned here is that many people don't like a goody two-shoes: look what happened to Spitzer; that should be a stark lesson for Obama and his supporters. Obama has enjoyed an extraordinary Icarus' Ride in the last year, but much as Americans LOVE a hero to worship, they also LOVE to bring one down. It's the niggling critic in the human character, something that's not very pleasant but very much there.

The trajectory and momentum of a downfall can be shown in microcosm with the Reverend Wright incident, and some chilling lessons are to be drawn from it. First off, this was something that the enemy didn't bring up; this was his own raging and wounded ego sparked. Although it died down quickly, part of why it did was that it wasn't kept alive by the "enemy of the moment" because to do so would be too actively harassing a fellow Democrat. Such unwillingness to pursue a weak spot won't be an impediment to the Republicans, and they're REALLY good at it. The other lesson was how very fast it happened and what a serious statistical effect it had, even if it was temporarily put to rest.

Yeah, she's saying he's just as bad as me, but that's because he is and won't admit it. He's NOT practicing "new" politics in a transcendent way of airy togetherness, he's exploiting tactical weaknesses, playing race, religion and selective facts in pure old-fashioned politics.

I think if Obama and his supporters admitted that he wasn't so saintly, there might be less rancor, but then again, the acolytes wouldn't like that; many of his supporters aren't in the market for a standard-bearer, they're shopping for a god. The want Ghandi and they think they've got him.

Much as I'm not a fan or supporter of Hillary Clinton, at least her story holds up better than his: he says he's above the divisive and greasy old ways when he's obviously not, whereas she says she's a tireless and indomitable fighter, and her tenacity bears it out.

People may like the goody two-shoes butter-won't-melt-in-my-deeply-religious-mouth types for awhile, but ask Elliot Spitzer how many people tried to stop the pile-on when it came.

[Pawel K]

94. Who here thinks Obama is a saint?

I have a hard time believing there are many Obama supporters here that are that naive.

I have been saying for the last year that he is for the most part just another politician. Yesterday I made a thread about how disgusted I was with his pandering to coal mining states by using the idiotic term "clean coal". But I support him over Hillary and I support him over her strongly because of some very important issues.

I can see how Obama's message of change doesn't get through to many skeptics because as we all know for the most part not much will change. It is a campaign slogan that I don't think even he believes in. But I believe he will change some things and it is important that we start somewhere. The DLC has been rotting the democratic party from the inside out for a very long time. It is time that changes and Obama, who distances himself from the DLC, is a pleasant change in that regard. Add in Hillary's support for the IWR and the amount of money she has taken from special interests and there should be no disagreement among any liberal thinker that we do not need any more of this crap.

Obama is no saint, and if you see anyone here claim otherwise please let me know and I will join you in calling them on that bullshit. But as always we are left with having to pick the lesser of 2 evils and I strongly believe the lesser evil here will be Obama.

Thank you for your reply, even though we both disagree on who should have been running against John McCain now that the nominee is virtually chosen I hope we could all come together and beat that low life scum. Because however many flaws Obama or Hillary might have they are not nearly as dangerous as McCain is.

[madrchsod]

118. the only people who call him a saint

are the hillary supporters and the obama haters...he`s a guy who wants to do what he thinks is best for our country...will he succeed or fail? who knows but i`m willing to give him a chance to try...

[ananda]

31. So..

Is Obama trying to be all things to all people?

I wouldn't be surprised.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. Nothing wrong with this mailer.

Obama is a Christian and he can campaign to Christians on this basis--every other viable candidate in recent history has done so.

[PurityOfEssence]

41. Jimmy Carter, probably the most truly religious of the bunch, DIDN'T

The coded promises lead to access, lest we forget.

This is the biggest problem I have with this man, and has been since the beginning of the race. By CONSTANTLY injecting religion into the debate, it will become ingrained that religion is NECESSARY in politics. That is beyond just dangerous.

I also look on it as opportunistic, cynical and bigoted.

[TNOE]

55. That was then

this is now. Thanks to Reagan and Bushies - religion NOW matters. Obviously. Otherwise - why make a big deal that he's muslim - or the Rev. Wright issue. "They" brought it up. He is well within his rights to show who he really is. The guy goes to church. So what.

[TexanDem]

57. Obama didn't inject religion. His opponents did, and he has to respond. >>

What's sad is that the regligious bigots are the ones who made this kind of thing necessary, questions about religion and faith in presidential debates, tons of flack on eccenetric preachers -- that's what bigoted -- not a response.

[graycem]

107. If you believe that..

do you believe an atheist or even an agnostic could get elected in our current climate? Or a muslim? People judge presidential candidates by their religion. We don't have to like it, but it is a fact in American politics.

[Jed Dilligan]

127. 32 years ago isn't that recent.

Our society has undergone profound transformations since then.

Religious influence isn't all negative. They only suck when they have a gun in their hand (on criminal issues and foreign policy). They are actually the most positive influence in politics when it comes to social welfare.

All in all, although I'm not religious I find corporations to be much more noxious.

[Bill McBlueState]

33. The message in the white box isn't a fundamentalist one

I mean, I cringe at the religiosity candidates have to display to get elected, but only someone who didn't know what he was talking about would describe this graphic as "fundie."

[sabra]

34. front of flier

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. Technically speaking, that is the OPPOSITE of a fundie message.

That is the standard American faith concept that "faith without works is dead". Fundies, however, believe that no amount of good works will find favor in the lord unless you are already a true believer - that works without faith is dead.

There is nothing in this that violates the church/state separation. All it does is acknowledge that he has a faith - it doesn't specify how that faith affects his policies.

IOW, your post is bullshit.

[JerseygirlCT]

136. Good point! nt

[Bluenorthwest]

36. This is a vast improvment over SC

And the McClurkin Caldwell roadshow. While seperation of Chruch and State has nothing to do with a candidate's ad, I wish they would all cut it out. It is divisive. Goes for all who do it.

My Baptist Grandpa taught me to distrust any and all politicans who talk about religion. He called it blasphemy, usinig the Name in vain and all kinds of things. To him, it meant instantly that the candidate was apostate. My family left the church where all of our weddings and all happened because the preacher spoke in favor of a candidate, a candidate my family ardently supported. That was not the point. The preacher had shown himself to have an agenda of his own, and that he was willing to use the divine to sell his own pitch. Very bad thing in some circles. Jesus himself spoke against those who proclaim their faith in public, yes sir he did. But what do Grandpa and Jesus know?

[QC]

38. Remember, back in the far distant past of about six months ago,

when we used to complain about GWB's relentless 24/7 godtalk?

Now Obama makes Bush look like an amateur in that regard and we're not supposed to say a word about it.

[shaniqua6392]

43. That is kind of disappointing.

Not surprising though. He is nothing more than a politician who is pandering. He and Clinton are equally guilty of it in my opinion. The man behind the curtain is.....a politician and is not the second coming of Christ. Obama and Clinton are two politicians cut from the same cloth. People just don't realize it yet because they are blinded. Blinded by what? I am not sure. We should have been demanding more from both of them all along.

[Justitia]

44. maybe it's a response to her stmt "I take him at his word...as far as I know"

and as we have seen on TV in WV today, some blockheads still think he's a Muslim and use that as a reason to not vote for him.

Maybe HRC should have been a little more careful in her word choices?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

47. Do you have a problem with Spanish-language campaign literature?

40% of Evangelicals self-identify themselves and Independents, and the conservative stranglehold on these voters is melting nearly every day. More Evangelicals are moving toward a broader definition of the role of faith in society to include care for the environment, social and economic justice, and the concept of the Common Good.

When you start talking to these voters are "reducing the need for abortion" through comprehensive family planning, support for single mothers, and stepping up enforcement of child support payments, you'd be amazed at how many of these formerly-Republican voters are willing to give a Democratic candidate a fair hearing.

Why wouldn't Obama (or any other Democratic candidate) want to pitch progressive values to these voters in the language that they understand and respond to?

[BlooInBloo]

49. So Clinton supporters let the lie go that he's muslim, then attack him for showing that he's

christian.

GENIUS!!!

[durrrty libby]

58. Bush 2.0

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[KingFlorez]

60. I see nothing wrong with this

The mailer speaks to about his character, not what his policy would be, there is a difference.

[lojasmo]

62. Can you read?

Try the bill of rights.

[2rth2pwr]

68. I seem to remember the indignation that was stirred up here in Dec. when Huckabee

was accused of subliminally inserting a "floating cross" into a Christmas campaign ad.

When Obama portrays himself as a preacher he gets a pass.

[MethuenProgressive]

77. It's OK when BO does it.

Like all flip flops, they stink after a while.

[lojasmo]

95. I certainly wasn't involved in that crap.....

And you can certainly count on a bunch of Clinton supporters to have been involved in it.

Anyway, as much as I dislike religious pandering, this is not unconstitutional, as the OP suggests.

[SeaLyons]

66. OMG....politics as usual...pandering any way you look at it....

faith based no less....

[Ian_rd]

67. As an Obama supporter, this ad rubs me wrong

I find it a clear use of religion to market himself to religious people. The bit about "do(ing) the Lord's work," smacks of the implication that his campaign is the Lord working through him. If Bush put out an identical ad, all of us would be howling about his exploitation of people's religious beliefs.

And yet, my desire for him to win prevents me from wishing the ad didn't exist. There are too many people that think he is a Muslim (regardless of how that shouldn't be an issue anyway). For far too long, Republicans have equated Christianity with Republicanism and therefore an opposing force to the Democratic Party. And Obama needs to broaden his support into Hillary's territory in all ways available, including going after those White Evangelical Democrats reluctant to give him consideration.

[2rth2pwr]

76. The hypocrisy of Obama supporters at DU knows no bounds.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2643357


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2643357

[Ian_rd]

79. Find another post to hang your idiocy.

My comments were not an endorsement of some brainless generalizations about either side.

[2rth2pwr]

80. I posted this exactly where I wanted it.

[Tinksrival]

81. "Man with corn cob up his ass!"

I MISS mopaul!!

[Bluenorthwest]

96. Hypocrisy is a big word to throw

And in the thread you post as proof of hypocrisy are at least two DUers who have constantly fought the religionism and faith based bigotry in the current campaign cycle, from Obama and from others. They are not hypocrites not at all. They have taken much heat for standing by Democratic and Progressive principles while others sacrifice those things in the name of a personality.
That thread you posted is not a list of hypocrites, and to say so about some of those posters is really far off base. I take offense at that.

[2rth2pwr]

126. Take your offense and blow it out your ass.

I never stated that every poster there was a hypocrite or an Obama supporter. There are many more threads just like that one with righteous indignation about hidden

religious symbolism on DU, then add in all the ones attacking straightforward religious appeals and there are many, many other examples I could have used.

If you think some here at DU will look at that example and assume that every one whose name appears on that thread is a hypocrite because I used it as an example, you

don't think very highly of the intelligence of the members here.

[Tatiana]

73. I think it's a great ad. n/t

[rodeodance]

117. Obama does the O'Huckabee!!

[MethuenProgressive]

74. Pandering 101: Alter your "Hope & Change" slogan to "Faith.Hope.Change." and pose in the pulpit.

Barack P. Obama.
(P. for Pandering)

[RichardRay]

78. Would someone explain to me how this violates

the 'separation of church and state'? I assume the poster is referring to the Constitution? The First Amendment,perhaps? It's very short:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please show he where the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or any subsequent reference would make this usage a violation of the principle sited.

[2rth2pwr]

86. It doesn't. But when any politician other than Obama does this, there are

cries of a theocracy. Obama is claiming that he needs to do the "Lords work", and that's why he should be elected.

[dchill]

88. "...so rejected..."

I know how you must feel.
:eyes:

[Neshanic]

89. Wow, Just wow. The new cover of the King James...er St. Obama version of the Bible.

This is so beyond pandering it's breathtaking.

[malta blue]

91. Those mailers were specifically created to combat the

"Muslim" rumor.

:banghead:

[harun]

92. It is seperation of church and state, not religion and state

He is not advocating or promoting an institution (church), just being religious. Which is just fine.

[2rth2pwr]

93. If that was McCains' face and name on this flyer I have a feeling you would be singing a different

tune.

[harun]

120. Possibly. I don't think Obama, McCain or Hillary will try and push their

religious beliefs on to the populace. I don't think any of them are very religious in reality. They just play the religious card when it helps them. Like Obama is doing now in KY.

[2rth2pwr]

124. Here ya go.

[rodeodance]

98. Obama does the O-Huckabee!!!!!!!

[graycem]

99. There was another thread

about this in GD, and it said that the guy, a supporter, made this on his own, and it was noted that the Obama Campaign's "paid for" line isn't on it. So are you really all that concerned with truth or ??

Secondly, if he were I wouldn't blame him after being unfairly painted a "muslim" to implicate him as a terrorist. Don't act so shocked.

Did you demand separation of church and state when they tried to kneecap him with his pastor for 3 weeks solid and we had a right to know, yadda yadda, or were you one of the ones who said Rev.Wright was irrelevant?

[hendo]

100. great mailer n/t.

[2rth2pwr]

113. How about this one?

[hendo]

128. I still don't see anything wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with any one expressing thier religious beliefs.

[hendo]

101. great mailer n/t.

[ronnykmarshall]

103. If Hillary did this ..

she would be pandering.

[hendo]

129. If hillary did that

it might offer some support for her claims that she goes to church.

[kwassa]

109. There is nothing "fundie" about this flyer.

All Christians aren't fundies.

Get it?

[depakid]

119. Neverthelless, I think reasonable people would find it disturbing

A presidential candidate has no business on the pulpit.

[kwassa]

140. Presidential candidates speak from the pulpit all the time

It is a standard part of political campaigning. Always has been. Always reasonable, too.

[BlackVelvet04]

112. It was true in 1802 and is stil true today.....

"Guard against those men who make a great noise about religion, in choosing representatives. It is electioneering. If they knew the nature and worth of religion, they would not debauch it to such shameful purposes. If pure religion is the criterion to denominate candidates, those who make a noise about it must be rejected; for their wrangle about it, proves that they are void of it. Let honesty, talents and quick despatch, characterise the men of your choice. Such men will have a sympathy with their constituents, and will be willing to come to the light, that their deeds may be examined." . . .

Source:

Excerpt from "July 4th Oration by John Leland, July 5, 1802".

[madrchsod]

115. 1802 makes this crap today look tame....

[madrchsod]

116. we`ll see if he does.....

[Tribetime]

121. Since he's been attacked on being a muslim

and the Wright issue so much, I think he has every right to set the record straight. What are only republicans allowed to be a christian?

[Perky]

122. I am sorry but what does this have to do with "fundamentalism"?

It is an appeal to people of faith. Not all people of faith or fundamentalists.

[Perky]

123. I am sorry but what does this have to do with "fundamentalism"?

It is an appeal to people of faith. Not all people of faith or fundamentalists.

[Straight Shooter]

125. It's South Carolina redux.

Play that religion card, Barack. Big effing lit-up cross and everything.

Every time I think I can be okay with this guy, something like this shows up. I will never be okay with him. Plastic, plastic, plastic.

[hendo]

130. so

did you not have a problem when Hillary pretended to be a "good little christian" in PA?

[Straight Shooter]

147. Did Hillary spend 100s of thousands on flashy stained-glass and crosses and praying brochures?

Nope. Didn't think so.

I don't judge who's Christian or not, but the more blatant the chest-beating, the less inclined I am to give credit that there is any true belief. Personally, I think Barack is lukewarm in his beliefs. Just my impression.

[OzarkDem]

132. His obsession w/ religion is disturbing

His tendency to let his pastors tell him what to do is not what I'm looking for in a candidate. We've had enough of one party's leaders that mix religion and government. Dems shouldn't be continuing that bad habit.

If you can't lead the country without a bunch of religious leaders telling you what to do, you need to find another job.

[jonestonesusa]

155. So do you prefer H-Clinton's religious influences?

Remember this article from the Huffington Post, or other discussions of Hillary Clinton's religious beliefs:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-gans/a-new-divinely-ordained-p_b_93425.html

Why is there so much discussion of Obama's religious beliefs and associations? We've heard about it for months! BTW, I didn't see the publicity flyers posted online that came out when Gore, Dukakis, B-Clinton, et al were clapping along with African American Baptists and looking silly for all these election cycles, but I bet they existed.

Has anyone heard about the big literature drop that JFK did shortly before the 1960 election? His brother and attorney general, Robert, had made a call of support to Coretta King right after MLK was arrested, I believe. And I think it was Sargent Shriver who was in charge of the big literature drop to black churches announcing the phone call and helping to swing black voters in the South to Kennedy.

Or, are the majority of Democrats going to come out as atheists and agnostics and criticize all candidates who politicize religion?

I won't hold my breath waiting for the Clinton Nation to attack Hillary's fundamentalism or to gain some historical perspective on these questions of religion and politics.

[AtomicKitten]

133. I totally prefer the gas tax holiday pander.

We'll miss all this when Obama takes the nomination in the next couple weeks.

Really, I mean it.

[Bluebear]

137. Holy moly.

[iamthebandfanman]

138. id use it too

if people were using a religion i wasnt a part of to instill fear into voters...

[QC]

139. He looks like he's about to start speaking in tongues any second. n/t

[MaineDem]

141. I have no problem with either of our candidates reaching out to people of faith

It has nothing to do with "church & state". It has a lot to do with that constituency that believes in values that are shared by their faith and the Democratic Party.

[Bluebear]

143. I do.

When they start including the "homosexuality is evil" contingent in their rallies.

[MaineDem]

145. Well, that's something else entirely.

Did Obama say that??

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

146. Here's what's going on...

First of all, let me highly recommend "The Party Faithful" by Amy Sullivan and "The Great Awakening" by Jim Wallis (and just about everything else Wallis has written).

What these books describe is an Evangelical Community that was never overwhelmingly Republican to begin with (40% of Evangelicals describe themselves as Independent), but was co-opted by the Republican Party during the 1980's. Republican operatives then hyper-emphasized those red-meat issues (abortion and gay marriage) in order to get Evangelical votes. But the events of the last few years (war, recession, corporatism) have caused a serious breach in the Republican domination of this voting bloc.

What's going on out there are a lot of independent Evangelical pastors who are developing their own definition of the role of faith in society. People like Rick Warren (author of "The Purpose Driven Life") are coming round to the idea that faith is broader than the how it's been defined by the Republican Party, to include things like economic and social justice and care for the environment. Warren's church recently hosted its second annual AIDS conference (something of a head-scratcher for an Evangelical Congregation) and just to really tick of the old-school fundamentalists, he invited Barak Obama to be a speaker.

It's a far more complicated issue that the "bumper sticker" posts that you see on DU.

[JerseygirlCT]

159. Exactly

I wish people would grow up a bit on this issue.

We need to reach out to everyone. And much of this country considers itself to be religious. Both our candidates do, too. This mailer doesn't have anything in it that's divisive or destructive of Democratic values. It recognizes the faith of the candidate and that that faith is important to him. Where's the big crime in that?

[Onlooker]

142. Lieberman did the same thing

I wonder if those who defend Obama for this also defended Lieberman for his outreach to reactionary religious types when he ran as VP. At any rate, I hate the way Obama infuses his campaign with religion, but I still support him. It's bad, but it's certainly no worse than the way Clinton inserts race.

[RichardRay]

149. Please don't conflate all people of faith....

with 'reactionary religious types'. The two are not the same. One is not even a subset of the other. I really don't care why a person is doing the right thing, as long as he or she keeps doing it.

[anonymous171]

154. It's one way he could appeal to the people of KY, defeat the "Elitist" BS

I don't think it's pandering, because he's not fabricating hunting trips or flat-out lying to the people. But, all the same, it is slightly unsettling to this Catholic.

[anonymous171]

151. I'm not going to hold it against him b/c half of them prob. think he's a muslim.

[Goblinmonger]

152. The religious pandering of both Hillary and Obama scare me.

There. Fair enough?

[Bluebear]

153. I never thought the Republican candidate would be the least "holy" of the 3

:(

[Radical Activist]

156. The modern progressive Democratic Party is founded on liberal religious values.

Look up William Jennings Bryan. This mailing represents the bedrock of the party and progressive movement in America. Allowing the right to high-jack Christianity without a response from Democrats was a horrible blunder and I'm happy to see Obama correct that mistake.

[JerseygirlCT]

160. Yup. nt

[lynne]

162. Obama needs a lesson in Appalachian religion -

- if he wants to appeal to their religious nature, he needs to give up the suit and tie and start dancing while handling rattlers.