"I should say that personally, I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman."

[rug]

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060605-floor_statement_5/

[BlooInBloo]

1. Most definitely something I strongly disagree with Obama on.

[KAZ]

42. Yeah, me too. But we'll get there!

[BlooInBloo]

62. Yup. Is just a matter of time before most people realize that gay folks...

can't do any worse with marriage than straight folks have already done.

And moreover, it's just the right thing.

[rinsd]

2. He is wrong. But despite of his personal feelings he still wants to repeal DOMA.

[Justitia]

5. Fully repeal it, even. Unlike Hillary Clinton. -eom

[flpoljunkie]

94. And, Obama includes "gay and straight" in his speeches..."black and white, young and old, etc.

Hillary Clinton never uses the word.

[Kittycat]

8. Also DADT - what a disgrace that was.

[Bright Eyes]

3. "Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time,

"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman." - Hillary Clinton, opposing same-sex marriages, quoted in The New York Daily News.


You're welcome.
http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/HillaryClinton.htm

[bicentennial_baby]

4. And he is wrong

[EFerrari]

15. I don't think he is wrong. He has his own beliefs -- which aren't right or wrong -

and, he doesn't think he should inflict them on Americans via Federal legislation. Plus, he called out the bill for what it was, bullshit and not in the interest of the people. That sounds pretty right to me.

[2rth2pwr]

19. No right or wrong? ok.

[SwampG8r]

46. marriage is a tricky thing

and its a religious thing also
now domestic partnerships is a government term
so really the issue isnt marriage which is a function of religion
but rather an issue domestic partnership which would be a function of government and the civil code

[EFerrari]

53. My point is, a personal belief isn't right or wrong because

you can't prove or disprove a belief. You either hold it or you don't. Moral or immoral, right or wrong -- that's a different arena altogether. In other words, although I don't agree with Obama's belief, that doesn't make him wrong. He never claimed to be right in the first place.

In any case, I like the way he refocuses the discussion on what people need and want and what is just. He takes it out of the realm of personal belief altogether, which seems right in what is left of our secular democracy. :)

[SwampG8r]

68. agreed

[BlooInBloo]

70. Um, beliefs are the par exellance thing to be right or wrong.

[EFerrari]

103. A belief by definition is arational. If we could prove our beliefs

they'd be something else.

[BlooInBloo]

105. Background...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_attitude

[WA98296]

6. Is this PRIMARY-related?

[BlooInBloo]

11. Yah - trying to fan the false flames of Obama-hates-gay-folks.

[rug]

26. If it's a fan, it's got his words on it.

[rug]

25. As soon as the two candidates make a statement on the California decision, it is.

[Vinca]

7. The beauty of the Democratic party is that we aren't required to be in lockstep. nt

[RiverStone]

9. Exactly

:thumbsup:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

10. One of the things I disagree with him on.

If ever there's a politician who has a real chance of making it to POTUS and I agree with them on all the issues of importance, the world will surely end before I get to vote for them.

[democrattotheend]

12. Does Clinton feel differently?

Last I heard she had not endorsed gay marriage either. I don't think any of the candidates had (I could be wrong about that). I wish they could come out for full marriage but it's political suicide, sadly. Hopefully in 10 years when people my age start running for office and having more say things will change. Even the young Republicans I know don't think gay people are an abomination.

[beezlebum]

24. Hillary Clinton: "..I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman."

"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman." - Hillary Clinton, opposing same-sex marriages, quoted in The New York Daily News.

posted upthread.

the thing about obama, is, while i disagree with his personal feelings- and let's face it, when we get a candidate who is fully in line with liberal/progressive ideals, he gets labeled unelectable and laughed off the stage, so let's not get pissy when we find some disagreement with one of the other options- he wants to repeal DOMA and DADT. apparently he doesn't believe in making his personal feelings the law.

[Marrah_G]

56. I disagree with her on this also

[nebula]

13. Thank God for that

No chance in hell of winning the GE if he said otherwise.

[NotThisTime]

17. Precisely

[rug]

27. Does he believe it or is he just saying it for an election?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rug]

36. Read the opinion. The California Supreme Court disagrees with you.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krawhitham]

60. Does it matter

He is the democratic canidate
a Dem MUST win or abortion will be over turned

at this point I do not care what he says as long as it helps him win, 4 years of McCain just scares the shit out of me

[rug]

64. "Words matter." Heard that before?

[onenote]

72. Do Hillary's words matter?

"I don't many Democrats who support gay marriage. I don't, and haven't for many years...."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/26/ip.01.html

Or: "I believe marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman"

Hillary Clinton on the floor of the United States Senate, July 13, 2004 (Cong. Rec. page S7994)

[rug]

85. Of course. Do Obama's?

[onenote]

92. equally. Which is why I posted Hillary's, since you were presenting an incomplete picture

But you knew you were doing that. ANd I can understand why it bothers you to be called out on it.

[Zachstar]

Sadly Bingo!

The simple fact is. That Gay rights is still a major issue in this country.

One that can sink a candidate on...

Hopefully that will chance with 8 years of change. (You know where people care more about getting their child through college than two men or women getting married) but for now it is political death.

Its like he can't come right out and say he will throw the fuckers in the Bush admin who blatantly broke the law in jail. It will sink him.

[galledgoblin]

14. the only candidate who ran in the primary who pushed full equality for LGBT

was Dennis Kucinich.

[Egnever]

16. To say anything else is political suicide

and you know it.

By the end of his 8 years though I bet it wont be anymore.

[hokies4ever]

22. Exactly!

Plus Hillary's stance on gay marriage is the same as Obama's. Gay marriage up to the states, but in favor of civil unions. You're going to have a hard time getting support for a fully pro-gay marriage position. Leaving it up to the states is the best that you can get right now.

[babylonsister]

18. Nice try, won't work. But your consistency is admirable. nt

[rug]

20. The question is not my consistency but Obama's.

Let's see his statement on the California decision.

[cali]

28. why are you ignoring the quote from Hillary in post 3?

She says precisely the same thing about marriage. Looks a little hypocritical when you attack Obama for the same thing YOUR candidate has said, and completely ignore her comments. And what will Hillary say about the CA decision? Why aren't you interested in that as well?

[beezlebum]

34. here i'll post it again:

"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman." - Hillary Clinton, opposing same-sex marriages, quoted in The New York Daily News.

?

[ErinBerin84]

39. thank you for posting this

I remember her saying this in an interview on TV a couple of years ago. I'm not sure why the double standard among her supporters on this issue applies.

[Forkboy]

45. And rug will ignore it again, because the issue isn't as important as the personality.

[rug]

48. Wrong again, forkboy.

[Forkboy]

67. No, you're still dodging her words.

You desperately want this to be about just Obama.

[rug]

80. It's not just about Obama but it is about Obama. Don't dodge it.

[Forkboy]

82. Thank you Michelle Malkin.

You refuse to discuss Hillary's words which are exactly the same. Why is that rug? Nevermind, all of us reading this thread already know the answer. Next time, try to not be such an intellectual coward.

[rug]

84. Intellectual cowardice is defending one's position simply by attacking another's.

Here's your chance for courage. Defend Obama's position on its own merits.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. Obama is WRONG on this.

Period.

[Forkboy]

90. I think they're both wrong. Your turn.

[rug]

99. I agree.

[rug]

47. That's a quote from the NY Daily News.

Do you have a quote from the Senate floor?

[cali]

49. It's a quote. So now it has to be from the Senate floor? LOL

Hilly has said virtually the same thing Obama has. Deal with it.

[rug]

52. The quote is from the Senate floor. You can discuss that or the NY Daily News and the NY Post.

I won't.

[cali]

58. of course you won't. It doesn't fit with your made up narrative.

Obama and Clinton have exactly the same position on marriage- except that Obama wants to repeal DOMA entirely and Hill doesn't. Deal with it. Or not.

[onenote]

71. You want a quote from the Senate floor: here ya go:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?position=all&page=S7994&dbname=2004_record

"I believe that marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman."

July 13, 2004, Cong Rec. S7994

[rug]

81. Does that exonerate Obama?

[onenote]

91. no. Neither he nor Hillary need "exoneration"

They took identical positions: they personally do not support same sex "marriage"; they both support giving gay couples legal protections that are, for all intents and purposes, equivalent, except in name, to marriage.

I'm not the one that started a thread singling out Obama. I just completed the story.

[closeupready]

83. She said exactly the same thing on Ellen DeGeneres' show. Link posted in the video forum.

I'll find it for you if you wish.

[Marrah_G]

65. They are both wrong on this.

[Justitia]

54. Here's what he said in '04 while RUNNING for the US Senate....

He was unequivocal even while trying to get elected, unlike the Clintons who went on religious radio stations BRAGGING about DOMA during their '96 re-election campaign.

http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=4018

As an African-American man, a child of an interracial marriage, a committed scholar, attorney and activist who works to protect the Bill of Rights, I am sensitive to the struggle for civil rights. As a state Senator, I have taken on the issue of civil rights for the LGBT community as if they were my own struggle because I believe strongly that the infringement of rights for any one group eventually endangers the rights enjoyed under law by the entire population. Since 1996, I have been the sponsor or a chief co-sponsor of measures to expand civil liberties for the LGBT community including hate-crimes legislation, adoption rights and the extension of basic civil rights to protect LGBT persons from discrimination in housing, public accommodations, employment and credit.


Today, I am a candidate for the U.S. Senate. Unlike any of my opponents, I have a legislative track record. No one has to guess about what I will do in Washington. My record makes it very clear. I will be an unapologetic voice for civil rights in the U.S. Senate.

For the record, I opposed DOMA < the Defense of Marriage Act > in 1996. It should be repealed and I will vote for its repeal on the Senate floor. I will also oppose any proposal to amend the U.S. Constitution to ban gays and lesbians from marrying. This is an effort to demonize people for political advantage, and should be resisted ... .


When Members of Congress passed DOMA, they were not interested in strengthening family values or protecting civil liberties. They were only interested in perpetuating division and affirming a wedge issue. ...


Despite my own feelings about an abhorrent law, the realities of modern politics persist. While the repeal of DOMA is essential, the unfortunate truth is that it is unlikely with Mr. Bush in the White House and Republicans in control of both chambers of Congress. ...


We must be careful to keep our eyes on the prize—equal rights for every American. We must continue to fight for the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. We must vigorously expand hate-crime legislation and be vigilant about how these laws are enforced. We must continue to expand adoption rights to make them consistent and seamless throughout all 50 states, and we must repeal the “Don't Ask, Don't Tell” military policy.


I know how important the issue of equal rights is to the LGBT community. I share your sense of urgency. If I am elected U.S. Senator, you can be confident that my colleagues in the Senate and the President will know my position.


Barack Obama
Democratic Candidate for the U.S. Senate

[JohnnyLib2]

21. That battle goes on, as all the great struggles do.

Forward, forward, as needed.

[olkaz]

23. It's called a principled stance. He's a christian. Sue him.

It's over. Stop it.

[rug]

31. Uh, no. GLBT equality is not over because of a primary.

[olkaz]

38. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

And concern-troll on, loyal soldier.

[rug]

41. You know, imbecilic namecalling is no argument.

Please respond if you want to go down that road.

[olkaz]

55. I'm not even sure what you're asking.

I said that it was a principled stance because of being a christian.

And I said that it was over. The race. You knew what I meant.

But then you pretended like I was saying GLBT rights were over. And I took umbrage to it.

And now you're saying I'm namecalling? I called you "soldier", is that so offensive? I don't see what name I called you.

The thing is, I don't mind this. I like to go to the Hillary forum and rile them up too. I say more and more outlandish things against Obama (OMG HE'S A CRAZY MUSLIM TERRORIST WHOS WITH ME) and see how many I can get to go along with it. It is hilarious.

[rug]

61. You can take your "concern-troll" words and shove them where the rest of your thoughts are.

[olkaz]

63. You know, the more I talk to you, the more I like you.

Your threads are always awesome.

I'm glad you're on our side!

[rug]

86. Your sentiments are entirely mutual.

[olkaz]

66. You know, the more I talk to you, the more I like you.

Your threads are always awesome.

I'm glad you're on our side!

[kentuck]

29. I think it is a political manipulation...

when certain state courts make these decisions just before important elections. They believe it helps the Republican Party, in my humble opinion.

[SoCalDem]

30. "Marriage" needs some re-defining

There should be a "marriage" option between ANY two consenting adults..regardless of sex.. This should be the LEGAL union of two people..

IF those two people CHOOSE it, they should also be encouraged/allowed to SANCTIFY that union in their church/temple/cathedral/mosque...BUT as far as the STATE is concerned the LEGAL CONTRACT of marriage should be for ANY TWO people ....ADULTS of legal age.

Allowing ministers/pastors/priests/imams to perform the marriages and have them be legally binding should also be allowed....

As long as "marriage" conveys LEGAL and FINANCIAL benefits, it's OBSCENE to only allow a certain segment of people to participate in the option.

If marriage offered NO legal/financial benefits, that would be different, but in our country married people DO get extras, that unmarried people do not.

If two unmarried people want to partner-up and CHOOSE not to marry, they willingly forego the benefits, but they should be ALLOWED to "marry" if they want.

Of course if EVERYONE had the same rights, stuff like this would be moot.. Universal health care, and the right to "unite" as partners, legally with anyone one chooses would make this whole issue disappear..

If we all had universal health care, people would not "need" to marry , in order to get medical coverage through employment for another person, and if single people could adopt easier, many would not NEED to marry in order to adopt.

[rug]

35. Here's the decision.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/

(S147999)

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Marrah_G]

37. Ugh, I hate when people say that.

To me that is a huge character flaw. Perhaps he won't act upon those beliefs, but I can't stand the belief itself.

From any politician.

[beezlebum]

40. he won't

he wants to fully repeal DOMA and DADT.

[Marrah_G]

51. But it's the belief in itself.

I have to wonder how anyone can't think that way and consider themselves progressive or liberal.

[beezlebum]

77. i don't consider obama or clinton

progressive or liberal, but i'll take obama over mccain/bush redux. as long as he doesn't use his beliefs to infringe on civil liberties- and the OP seems to imply he would, hence my determination to include the fact that he wouldn't in the discussion- wrong or right, i don't give a flying f what he thinks of the definition of marriage.

DK was the only one who represented my views as a liberal, but he was deemed "unelectable" early on, so obama it is.

[Marrah_G]

89. No doubt either one is better then McCain

They both disappoint me in a big way on this issue.

[bunkerbuster1]

43. I'll file it under "that shit's fucked up."

But I'll still vote for Obama.

You got any other flamebait?

[rug]

50. No, but maybe you can tell me whether he's leaving Iraq in 2009 or in 16 months.

[indie_voter]

44. I disagree strongly with him, he is wrong n/t

[msallied]

57. He has his rights to his personal beliefs, even if I don't agree with them.

If he starts legislating those beliefs, that's a different ballgame.

In my opinion, marriage and government should never have mixed in the first place. It's a personal/spiritual thing that has no need for bureaucracy. If government got out of marriage altogether, they'd have no reason to impede gays from doing it.

[Justitia]

59. From the horse's mouth, when he was running for the US Senate...

He was unequivocal even while trying to get elected, unlike the Clintons who went on religious radio stations BRAGGING about DOMA during their '96 re-election campaign.

http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ART...

As an African-American man, a child of an interracial marriage, a committed scholar, attorney and activist who works to protect the Bill of Rights, I am sensitive to the struggle for civil rights. As a state Senator, I have taken on the issue of civil rights for the LGBT community as if they were my own struggle because I believe strongly that the infringement of rights for any one group eventually endangers the rights enjoyed under law by the entire population. Since 1996, I have been the sponsor or a chief co-sponsor of measures to expand civil liberties for the LGBT community including hate-crimes legislation, adoption rights and the extension of basic civil rights to protect LGBT persons from discrimination in housing, public accommodations, employment and credit.


Today, I am a candidate for the U.S. Senate. Unlike any of my opponents, I have a legislative track record. No one has to guess about what I will do in Washington. My record makes it very clear. I will be an unapologetic voice for civil rights in the U.S. Senate.

For the record, I opposed DOMA < the Defense of Marriage Act > in 1996. It should be repealed and I will vote for its repeal on the Senate floor. I will also oppose any proposal to amend the U.S. Constitution to ban gays and lesbians from marrying. This is an effort to demonize people for political advantage, and should be resisted ... .


When Members of Congress passed DOMA, they were not interested in strengthening family values or protecting civil liberties. They were only interested in perpetuating division and affirming a wedge issue. ...


Despite my own feelings about an abhorrent law, the realities of modern politics persist. While the repeal of DOMA is essential, the unfortunate truth is that it is unlikely with Mr. Bush in the White House and Republicans in control of both chambers of Congress. ...


We must be careful to keep our eyes on the prize—equal rights for every American. We must continue to fight for the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. We must vigorously expand hate-crime legislation and be vigilant about how these laws are enforced. We must continue to expand adoption rights to make them consistent and seamless throughout all 50 states, and we must repeal the “Don't Ask, Don't Tell” military policy.


I know how important the issue of equal rights is to the LGBT community. I share your sense of urgency. If I am elected U.S. Senator, you can be confident that my colleagues in the Senate and the President will know my position.


Barack Obama
Democratic Candidate for the U.S. Senate

[onenote]

69. "I don't know many Democrats who support gay marriage. I don't and haven't, you know,for many years"

Hillary Clinton to Judy Woodruff on "Inside Politics"

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/26/ip.01.html

Or
"I believe marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman"

Hillary Clinton on the floor of the United States Senate, July 13, 2004 (Cong. Rec. page S7994)

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?position=all&page=S7994&dbname=2004_record

[anigbrowl]

73. and yet, he voted against it and spoke up for dignity and rights.

[Barack_America]

74. Vote Kucinich?

Is that your point?

FYI, Hillary feels the same way, so that makes both our remaining candidates.

[flvegan]

75. Which is why I "wasted" my vote on Dennis Kucinich.

Well, part of the reason.

[Beregond2]

76. Personally, as a gay man,

I couldn't care less if the law calls it marriage or civil union. So long as it offers the same legal rights and protections, they can keep the word "marriage." As for candidates, so long as they aren't interested in undermining my rights, they can have all the personal beliefs they want.

Not that any of this affects me. I gave-up on relatinships long ago, and my life has been twice as nice ever since.

[Freddie Stubbs]

78. Sounds like he is in line with most Americans

[RoadRage]

79. Clinton & McCain think the same thing..

the big difference is that Obama (and Clinton had she won the nomination) are willing to at least fight for Civil Unions and shared benifits between partners. Is it perfect? No. Is it a step in the right direction - YES.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. And Just like Hillary Clinton, he needs to grow up about this.

Unfortunately, we are not going to have a nominee this year who unequivocally supports full marriage equality.

Kucinich was the only one brave enough to take the right stand on this, this year.

Unfortunately.

[Seabiscuit]

95. Someone needs to wake Obama up about CA's Supreme Court decision today...

In California now, marriage is *not* just "between a man and a woman". Because among other things, marriage is a legal institution, unconsitutional discrimination is no longer allowed here in sunny California. :)

[Forkboy]

97. Yup..and Hillary, too.

[merh]

108. here ya go

DEMOCRATIC SEN. BARACK OBAMA, CAMPAIGN STATEMENT

"Barack Obama has always believed that same-sex couples should enjoy equal rights under the law, and he will continue to fight for civil unions as president. He respects the decision of the California Supreme Court, and continues to believe that states should make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of marriage."

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed7/idUSN1534301220080516

Discussion here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5990379

[DutchLiberal]

96. That, and the homophobic guy at his rally...

Well, the only candidate who proposed full and equal gay marriage has left the primaries a long time ago. Once again image prevails over substance.

[MethuenProgressive]

98. Donnie McClurkin must be really upset today.

And Donnie's fans, too.

[nichomachus]

100. I disagree with all the candidates on some things

so this is just one thing I disagree with him on.

Bill Clinton pledged to allow gays in the military, got a lot of support for that, and botched it up so bad that we ended up with something worse than what we had.

[eridani]

101. You want full marriage equality? Support Kucinich.

Of course the MSM won't take anybody like that seriously, so I'll just settle for any non-Repuke here.

[DainBramaged]

102. well, maybe in my lifetime, people will start to recognize love as the reason for marriage

not that you are of the opposing gender only. And why is it it's OK for heterosexual couples to marry and then get divorced like they were trading in an old car? Shouldn't there be a law against that too?

What's fair is fair.


You want to accept the responsibility of marriage, I say till death do you part. No matter what your sex is. THAT would be a true commitment.

[Liberal Gramma]

104. What is important is not one's belief, but one's actions

He can believe marriage is between a man and a woman, but can also support marriage for gays, just as you can believe abortion is wrong for you but support Roe v Wade. The problem we have with the social conservatives is that they want to legislate their beliefs. They are entitled to believe however they want to, but are not entitled to enact law saying we all have to believe as they do.

[apocalypsehow]

106. Sucks to be on the losing side of history, doesn't it rug? You and George Wallace would no doubt

have much to commiserate about, were he still around. Me, I just point and laugh. Ridicule is the appropriate response, at the end of the day.

[AZBlue]

107. Oh stop. No candidate is good on the GLBT issue.

But Obama's better than the rest.

[VotesForWomen]

109. thus spoke Reverend Obama. nt

[boppers]

111. Hammer->Nail

Yup, his faith leads him to attach the word "marriage" to male-female pairs. His reason leads him to attach "civil union" to male-male, male-female, female-female, whatever-whatever pairs.

I'm pretty sure this is why we shouldn't allow the church into our government, because then religiously loaded terms like "marriage" start gumming up the works. They're already mucking about with what constitutes valid "prayer", and "worship", it's time to get them out of what counts as valid contracts between loving couples.

[Danger Mouse]

110. And here's where I strongly disagree with Obama.

[Alexander]

112. Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate who fully supported gay marriage.

How did that work out for him?