HRC supporters: What Obama policy shifts would make it easiest for you to accept him?

[Ken Burch]

I know you haven't given up yet, and I respect your loyalty to your candidate. But what I'm asking here is what could Obama do on policy issues to lead you to accept him as the nominee with good grace?

This thread is a sincere effort to reach out, so please don't flame. It's about finding common ground and closing ranks. And I'm going to ask other Obama people not to flame HRC supporters who choose to post in this thread.

We do need you. Therefore, please take this thread as a chance to discuss ways we could work together.

[glowing]

1. 2 Biggies.. Education and Universal Healthcare.

[Ken Burch]

2. OK. That's a good suggestion.

Thanks.

[tekisui]

3. He mentioned Universal Healthcare. And Edwards could move that along.

[Ken Burch]

4. Indeed. And perhaps we could even have somebody bring up single-payer in the plaform process

At least as an ultimate goal.

[BattyDem]

5. I don't like either candidate's healthcare proposal

Get the insurance companies out! That's they only way we'll have true universal health care. You're right ... Edwards (and Mrs. Edwards) could definitely move Obama's plan in the right direction. :-)

[tekisui]

7. I don't like either of the ones presented now.

But, Obama's is designed to be a step towards something better. Hillary's is supposed to be the ultimate solution.

A strong majority in the House and Senate, and the Edwards' helping to shape the plan, we could make some very good steps in the coming years.

[sandnsea]

19. How?

What's so much better about Edwards' plan, and don't say mandates because his mandates don't kick in until all the other reforms have put in place.

[BattyDem]

38. I said Edwards could move Obama in the right direction ...

I never said the right direction was his own health care plan. :) He had some good ideas in his plan, but it certainly wasn't perfect. However, I honestly believe both John and Elizabeth truly understand the problems with the system because of her illness. They've seen the bureaucracy first hand and it must have occurred to them that they would be in deep trouble if they didn't have money and/or insurance. They get it. Having them as consultants on any health care plan would be a good thing. JMHO

[eridani]

48. What I really, really don't get about Edwards--

--is why he seems to think that the provisions in his plan outlawing cherry-picking and claims denial would be any more acceptable to the insurance companies than flat out single payer universal health care. It's like he wanted $3000 for his used car, and that's the number he put up on Craig's List. Anyone with any sense should know that if you want $3000, you should ask for $5000. If you want a kitten, ask for a pony.

Hey John--you're going to get hung for a lamb. Why not go for the sheep?

[BattyDem]

79. I don't think he believes it will be acceptable to them.

Let's face it ... the insurance companies are going to fight any change in the current system because they're currently the big winners. The only way to get anything passed in Congress is to have the majority of Americans supporting it.

Several months ago, I read an article on Elizabeth Edwards and she said that single-payer would not pass because the public is afraid of the idea of socialized medicine. We could end up with single-payer eventually, but we weren't going to leap from what we have now to a single-payer system. There had to be a middle step ... a bridge between the two systems. When people saw that a government-run system could work very well, they would be far more likely to support true single-payer, universal health care.

So Edwards (and Obama and Clinton) came up with a plan that would appeal to Americans, not insurance companies. I think they avoided a true, single-payer plan because they didn't want to deal with the "socialized medicine" hysteria that the GOP would create. If the public turns against the idea of changing the system, that would be the end of it. So they came up with plans that give people a choice between government-run public plans and private plans. As long as they have a choice, as long as they don't feel like they're being forced into a socialized system, Americans will most likely support it because everyone recognizes that something has to be done.

At that point, members of Congress will have two choices: vote in favor of the changes and risk losing the insurance company money or vote against the changes and risk losing your seat in Congress (in which case, the insurance company money won't mean a damn thing anyway).

We all know it's not going to be easy to change the system, but as long as we have a president who WANTS to change the system, we have a good chance to do it. I hope Obama asks for John and Elizabeth's input. Well .... John may be a little busy with his AG duties ;-), but Elizabeth certainly has a grasp on the situation and she would be a wonderful asset to the team.

[Auntie Bush]

89. How about Elizabeth in a cabinet position?

John isn't the only possible creditable candidate!

[BattyDem]

91. It never occurred to me because I don't think of her as a "politician" ...

but she would be a great asset to Obama. I remember when she gave speeches during the Kerry/Edwards campaign. She blew me away! She's well-informed, articulate and she's not afraid to speak her mind. She's also politically savvy and well-versed in policy. To top it off ... people love her! :)



edited: typo :blush:

[eridani]

97. Accepting what the public supposedly now thinks is defeatism

If you mean that the insurance company ads will be screaming about "socialized medicine" you are of course right. That's what they did in 1994, after all, and Clinton's plan was nothing but a huge giveaway to the largest companies.

Here's a clue--fucking BREAK THE GODDAM REPUKE FRAME! Don't passively accept it--you lose before you even start that way. The aspects of their plans that are even remotely appealing to average voters will never, ever be tolerated by insurance companies. You'll get screaming about socialized medicine no matter what you do, so fucking go for broke, sez I. If you want a kitten, ask for a pony. If you want $3000 for your used car, ask for $5000. If they are going to hang you for starting off with a weak compromise, then start off by not compromising at all. If you are going to get hung for a lamb, at least go for the sheep.

Personally, I think hoping for a "middle step" is like hoping that electrons could really exist outside of allowed orbits. If the health care movement cannot convert the sentiment of 51% of Republicans who favor government paid health care and the 92% of Democrats who favor it into public policy, then we are really screwed and totally incompetent as activists. We might as well just say fuck it, let the 18,000 a year keep dying.

It isn't whether a Dem president wants to do it, it's whether WE want to do it. If we can get HR 676 passed, Obama will surely sign it.

[cali]

6. I wish people understood that what Hillary, Obama and Edwards offered

is NOT universal healthcare. The only candidate who had a plan for that was Dennis. The plans of O, C and E are all rooted in Hacker's work at Yale, and Hillary's plan and Obama's plan are 95% the same. Sigh.

[BlooInBloo]

8. I understand that just fine. The advantage of the OCE plans is that they have a good chance...

of actually getting thru Congress quickly. Moonbeam McCrazypant's plan is better, but can't pass Congress.

[Ken Burch]

10. Well, it's not going to help if members of Dennis' own party call him

"Moonbeam McCrazypants".

Christ on a biscuit, what did Dennis ever do to you?

It's not like his candidacy hurt the party.

[BlooInBloo]

11. I have a "thing" against Carlos Casteneda types...

But I do acknowledge the objective goodness of his healthcare plan.

[Ken Burch]

15. Dennis ran as a progressive antiwar populist...he didn't drop peyote with Don Juan

:eyes:

But thanks for acknowledging the validity of his healthcare plans.

Don't be too hard on visionaries and idealists...without them, we'd be nowhere.

[BlooInBloo]

20. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

61. I'm pretty sure I never saw Kucinich at any of the Dead shows I was at.

That's sort of a weird comparison, you made there.

[eridani]

51. Dennis only pushed the 2004 version of Edwards much further left in 2008

--thereby forcing all the candidates to at least pay lip service to doing something about "free" trade.

[Hippo_Tron]

40. For a second there I thought you were referring to McCain

Moonbeam McCazypant is a much better name for him than for Dennis.

[ekwhite]

100. Exactly

Kucinich is from Cleveland. McInsane is from Sedona, home of people with more money than sense.

[eridani]

50. That's because you won't get off of your ass and work for it

It doesn't take political courage when 51% of Republicans and 92% of Democrats are in favor of government financed health care. Anybody who thinks that even the mild restrictions of the OCE plans on cherry-picking and claims denial are even slightly more acceptable to the insurance companies that straight-out single payer is delusional.

If you want $3000 for your used car, ask for $5000. If you want a kitten, ask for a pony. If you want half of your legislative agenda accomplished, ask for 150% of it.

[newmajority]

14. So how do we get them to go with HR 676 as the real health care plan?

The absolute worst thing would be Hillary's Romneycare II, because once everyone was required to pay a corporation, there would be no incentive for a better system as everyone would be "covered".

There's no fucking excuse why CUBA should have better healthcare than the USA. Or most of the so-called civilized world, for that matter.

[eridani]

52. With more Dem congresscritters and massive organizing of the public

Obama has shown that large scale organizing can be done. What are we waiting for?

[DemVet]

71. True enough. Well said.

Having been hospitalized over 40 days from Thanksgiving of last year until the end of January and running up almost $400,000 in bills, I can tell you nothing is as close to me as the healthcare issue.

Geez, do I have some stories I could tell both Barack AND Hillary.

[ekwhite]

99. Agreed

John Edwards, when he proposed his plan, said the ultimate goal was a single payer plan, but that his plan was a good step towards that. His point was that politics would not allow single payer immediately, and that we needed to be able to transition towards that type of plan. By offering a government-sponsored plan that is equal to or superior to private plans at lower cost, we could get to a single payer plan by default.

[stahbrett]

12. Universal healthcare is crap - just more guaranteed $$$ for insurance companies

Single payer systems are better - takes the profit out of the insurance business. Neither candidate's healthcare plan impresses me very much.

[glowing]

30. I agree.. I suppose I should say that instead of Universal.. that's really

what I mean.. not ins. co's.

[sandnsea]

16. Hi education plans are terrific

What problem do you have with his education plans? And forcing people to buy insurance IS NOT universal health care. It isn't what Edwards proposed either, no matter how many times they try to pretend it is. His plan specifically said mandate AFTER everything had been fixed, which is the same as what Obama has said he would consider. But it has to be affordable FIRST.

[democrattotheend]

23. What specifically about education?

I looked at his education policy and it looks pretty good...what specifically do you want him to change?

[eridani]

47. There is zero difference between them on these issues

OK, Clinton has some education accomplishments to her credit in Arkansas with put her up one on Obama. However, neither of their health care plans are universal single payer. Therefore I'm not even the slightest bit interested in parsing the piddly differences between them. It will be up to us to get HR 676 through Congress, and then either of them would sign it in a New York minute.

[ekwhite]

98. Two good ones

Adopting John Edwards' health care plan would be a good start.

[LisaM]

9. He's got to vow to get rid of NCLB (not tweak, toss)

Back off on merit-based raises to teachers and categorically state that tax money should not go to charter schools or vouchers.

In other words, re-build the public school system.

Oh, and mandate healthcare for all.

And take privatization of Social Security off the table.

[sandnsea]

18. Differrent than Hillary?

She wasn't going to get rid of NCLB or tax money going to charter schools. His merit pay is for teachers who increase their education or teach in tough districts, what's wrong with that?

He has never supported privatiation.

And the mandated health insurance is a gimmick. If people can afford it, they'll buy it.

[LisaM]

21. She supports scrapping it NOW. She's been saying so for a couple of months.

I liked Edwards' idea of giving bonuses for teaching in underprivileged districts.

[sandnsea]

32. Election year pandering??

You believe that? She refused to oppose NCLB until she decided to try to win votes with it.

And you might want to read about what Obama actually accomplished in Illinois and the US Senate before you go giving Edwards credit for his programs.

http://obama.senate.gov/issues/education/

http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barack_Obama_Education.htm

[wileedog]

36. Why are we backing off on merit-based raises to teachers?

My wife is a teacher. I understand completely that finding some system for rating teachers is insanely hard.

But she will be the first to tell you that one of the most frustrating things about being a teacher is that she works her ass off to do the best she can, and other teachers mail it in and everyone gets the same raise.

Whats the rationale for every teacher getting the same pay? Why is it a problem to give a raise to those who clearly put in more effort, like everyone else who has a job?

[ekwhite]

101. I think that rebuilding the public school system is incredibly important

We need to scrap No Child Left Behind (what an Orwellian name) in favor of programs that work. Instead of a punitive program that encourages teachers to "teach to the test," we need a system that encourages teachers to excel, and gives help to those that don't. Charter schools and vouchers are just means of keeping "separate but equal" in place without having to mandate segregation.

I'm not certain about the "merit based pay" thing, however. I would like to see teachers who go above and beyond the call of duty to be rewarded for their efforts in some way. Since I don't know the specific problems of merit based pay, I won't recommend it, but I would like to see a bonus system, or "master teacher" status, or even flexible rewards for teachers who excel.

[DFW]

13. I was ready, and still am, to accept either one of them

The only thing I am NOT ready to accept is a McCain presidency.

Since the nominee will not be the one I preferred, the only issue
truly vital to me is that McCain NOT be our next president. As ugly
as so many of the GD-P posters have been, it'll be nothing compared
to what will become of this country if McCain gets in. I think anyone
blowing their emotional wad on the primaries is nuts. You prefer whom
you prefer, no use in getting totally obsessed with it. This race will
not end with the nominee being decided. The most important part will
have just begun.

I'd accept HRC or BHO with as much grace as I can muster.

I would not accept McCain with any grace at all.

[Ken Burch]

17. And I'm glad to hear that.

But this thread is directed towards building bridges with those who are holding onto harder feelings.

The dialogue here is important.

And I'd like to say right now that there hasn't been a single policy suggestion I'd object to.

[DFW]

49. I realize that

I was just thinking that now would be an excellent time to dismantle
those harder feelings (on both sides). BTW--agreed that dialogue is
far preferable to the shouting and screaming that has been the norm here.

[Radio_Lady]

24. DFW, you've expressed my sentiments exactly.

This morning, in the shower, I started to think about how GOOD Hillary Clinton's life will be if she DOES NOT get elected.

I am almost a decade older than she is, and it's been a good run from age 60 to 69... I am not as rich as she is, and won't submit to plastic surgery, but if she and her husband can still care about each other for whatever time they have left together, the Clintons may ultimately look upon this 2008 political crossroads in a positive light.

I hope she'll be able to enjoy the rest of her Senate term. After she gets over the disappointment, I believe she will be able to reapply herself to a different kind of life. The world is her oyster -- she has the money and the opportunity to do so many worthwhile things as one of the first women to achieve this level of political acceptance. Millions of people voted for her, and think she could have been an outstanding President. But, the way our system works, it looks as if that is not going to be.

On a personal level, I hope she'll live to see her daughter married, and get to be a mother-in-law to some delightful young man. Then, perhaps she will have a grandchild or two... that is really such a gift to see your own child as a parent. Plus... you can send those grandkids home anytime!!!!

Frankly, I think you have to be on the edge of complete insanity to actually CHOOSE to run for President. That goes double or triple for these times.

Fate seems to be smiling on Hillary, and may give her a chance for a different outcome and a completely transformed future. It's what life does sometimes -- maybe most of the time -- for us humans.

Peace, love and happiness,

Radio Lady Ellen Kimball

[eridani]

53. And she could pick an issue, any issue, and run with it like Gore has done--

--with global warming and Edwards is doing with poverty.

[Radio_Lady]

65. Yes, she can!

Thanks for your thoughts.

RL

See Thursday's post at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5988936

[ekwhite]

102. Good point

It is amazing how much Presidents age in office. The stress must be amazing.

It could be the same for her as it was for Al Gore. He lost, but ended up able to work on something he deeply cared about, and was even able to win an Oscar and a Nobel Prize. I hope Senator Clinton can be as successful.

[lastliberalintexas]

22. Not a Clinton supporter, but a little less religion

would certainly go a long way, as well as at least a little discussion of women's issues and poverty.

Ok, yeah, a LOT less religion.

[applegrove]

25. I want to see Obama angry and tell off Bush/McCain himself. I want some passion of

a 'negative' kind.

[SwampG8r]

28. you will see that

as soon as we move to the GE

[JTFrog]

77. You will see that today. n/t

[paulk]

26. several things would help

he needs to unequivocally come out against school vouchers

he needs to explain why he supported Republican tort reforms

he needs to explain to my satisfaction why he supported the Bush/Cheney energy bill

he needs to be more honest about his "universal" healthcare proposal and stop pandering to the right with his "no mandate" bullshit.

he has totally wimped out on GLBT issues. I expect better from a Democrat than the whole McGlurkin thing and refusing to have his picture taken with Gavin Newsome. It shows a real lack of leadership.
----------------

mostly, though, he needs to convince me that his rhetoric isn't more of the same crap I hear from politicians every four years concerning hope and change and unity

he needs to convince me that his claims of being a great leader are somehow based in reality despite the fact that he has shown precious little leadership during his tenure in the Illinois Senate and the US Senate.

He needs to convince me that he has the experience and the credentials to be President of this country, and I don't think giving great speeches qualifies.

---------------

I guess that last part is the bottom line - he hasn't shown me that he has the experience to lead this country. All I hear from him are words with no real action to back them up.

----------------------

A little off topic - but for the life of me I can't understand why people on the left like you, Mr. Burch, support this man. He is a flat out centrist. A Chicago pol right out of the Daley machine. He's actually to the right of Hillary Clinton on many issues that the left considers important. I don't get it.

[emilyg]

27. Excellent points.

[eridani]

54. I say "judgment" trumps "experience"

Cheney and McSame have "experience," and I don't want any more of it. Breaking the Repuke frame here is much more of an election winner for Dems than going along with it.

[paulk]

70. but where is his great judgement?

it's just another word. it's just another slogan.

elections are won now by running the slickest PR campaign. I would like some substance.

[eridani]

73. Not supporting the Iraq war

Hiring competent organizers to run his campaigns instead of useless shitstains like Mark Penn. Being able to think of strategy for more than two weeks in advance. Generating a really huge base of small donors. Organizing massive voter registration drives. Helping state and local parties with party building activities.

[paulk]

74. but he has supported the war

I don't count his speech against the war as being "against the war". When it has counted, Obama has voted to support the war. Votes are what matter, and Obama's voting record does not match his rhetoric.

All the other things you mention are great - if you're running to be chairman of the DNC. Building the party, etc., is not the job of the President of this country. I want policy, I want issues - backed up with a record of getting things done. Obama's resume in that area is mighty thin, IMHO - and way too much of what he has actually done is to the right of his oppponent. Obama supporters seem willing to forgive this - if not ignore it completely - because he holds out this hope to them that what he has said and what he has done won't be related - once we get this new politics of his underway in DC. I'm worried that it's all just a PR campaign, an advertising blitz for the newest, shiniest political product on the shelves.

[eridani]

78. If he chooses his advisors the way he chooses his campaign organizers--

-that's all the recommendation I need. Clinton has done nothing, other than shill for corporations. I'm not the slightest bit impressed with either of their platforms--wussy and centrist alike. I am impressed that Obama can have plans that look beyond a two week time frame. Obama happens to be right--nothing will change unless his supporters stay organized and involved. As FDR often said to Eleanor--if you want that to happen, tell your friends to get themselves organized and MAKE me do it. Obama seems to get this; Clinton seems to think that having a policy idea is all that is necessary.

[rug]

29. Defund the war now. Pull out in January 2009.

No politics. No excuses. No bullshit.

[Ken Burch]

31. A lot of us are with you on that.

We'll probably be organizing protests at Inagural time to make sure it happens.

And I'd like to say right now that the antiwar movement should NOT repeat the foolish 2004 tactic of suspending protests during the fall campaign. Suspending antiwar activism didn't gain the Democratic ticket any votes then and it can't gain it any this year.

[rug]

35. Amen.

[eridani]

55. We won't get that from either of them without a lot of pressure from the bottom

It really is up to us.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## DON'T DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our second quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Whatever you do, do not click the link below!

[wvbygod]

34. Use the billions spent elsewhere to help our kids and the most needy

Demand that gender, race and class warfare have no place in government, politics
or campaigns and fire any of your helpers that promote such.

Plus win the presidency.

[ccharles000]

37. Nothing really I will vote for him...

no matter what if he is the nominee. I like him just fine but I like Hillary better.

[Teaser]

43. How I feel about Hillary

well, I don't like her personally, but her policies are good. I'd vote for her if need be.

Why can't more people put aside the personal shit?

[anamnua]

39. Is that James Connolly's image?

I doubt if he would have had much time for Obama

[Ken Burch]

45. He'd have less time for HRC.

Connolly wouldn't be satisfied with either candidate. Obama was the candidate I ended up with after Kucinich and Edwards were forced out. There was no way I could back HRC in the primary after the whole DLC era. It meant, to my mind, giving up on opening the party to progressives and idealists again.

And I back Obama now, despite the fact that he is not as progressive as I'd like, because his campaign is a movement as well as an electoral effort. As far as I can see, the HRC thing would basically end either if she withdrew from the race or the day after she was sworn in, with no effort to encourage or respect continuing grassroots activism. I don't belive idealism or visionaries would get any respect in a HRC administration. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but I'm pretty sure she'd tell people like "shut up and know your place, peasant".

I salute you for recognizing the image, however.

[eridani]

56. Well, she's at least been forced to pay lip service to the 50 state strategy

Obama has put money and organization into it.

[anamnua]

86. I respectfully disagree

Connolly had no time for BS and would have seen through The Chosen One like a pane of glass. Conversely I think he would have been impressed by HRC's encyclopaedic grasp of relevant policy issues. 'Know thy place peasant' seems more like an Obamite mantra following BO's bitter/guns/religion faux pas which would have infuriated JC.
The working class vote went overwhelmingly to Clinton so I rest my case.
I think we can expect a 'carnival of reaction', to use one of JC's better known phrases if BO makes it to the White House.
However it's nice to have an intelligent civil chinwag (for a change) with an Obama supporter.
Best wishes

[Ken Burch]

93. Best wishes.

And whoever gets elected will need to be kept under constant pressure from below.

[BlackVelvet04]

41. Nothing.

I'm sorry, but I believe him to be a manufactured candidate who is not qualified to be president, so there's really nothing that will change that.

[Colobo]

44. I hope you will change your mind. We are Democrats. We need to stand together.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

83. Neither Obama nor his supporters ever said we didn't need HRC supporters.

Why is it that you can't accept that HRC(the more conservative candidate)has had her fair chance and that those of you who supported her haven't been mistreated by Obama supporters?

Why does she have to stay in and keep making things worse until the bitter end for you to feel she's been in long enough? You know she can't win now. Why fight on when the fight is pointless?

I could understand the loyalty if Gloria Steinem or Bella Abzug were running...but why THIS candidate?

It would be different if she was clearly to Obama's left and was antiestablishment. Then it would be worth having her fight on and I'd back her.

[eridani]

57. Manufactured by whom? Clinton has demonstrated that she is far too short-sighted

--for the job. Who had a post Feb 5th campaign plan? Who has the largest small donor base? Who puts money into organizers instead of into paying shitstain consultants like Mark Penn?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. i'll support him once she gives up. i wont trust him.

funnily enough i think of him as a younger, handsomer bill clinton

[Ken Burch]

84. Why would you have any more reason to trust her?

She's never taken a risk on LGBT issues.

[2rth2pwr]

46. It's not about policy positions, when was the last time any candidate for any

office used the campaign platform as a governing document? It's about the person, and that persons character. Those are things that are difficult to "change".

[eridani]

58. Clinton's character is that she is too short-sighted to be president

Refusing to look even a few months ahead amounts to very poor qualifications.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. And what SPECIFIC things about Obama-the-person and Obama-the-person's character

do you find so objectionable?

Please, be specific.

[2rth2pwr]

63. Why do I feel like you are shining a light in my eyes when you ask that question?

[Warren DeMontague]

64. It's just a question.

Seriously. Can't you answer it?

[unlawflcombatnt]

59. If he dropped out

N/T

[eridani]

So we run a candidate whose themes are "experience" and "toughness"

--against a Repuke who beats the bejeezus out of her in those two areas?

[Radio_Lady]

66. The option? We choose a candidate who runs on "Change" but...

it turns out to be only "small change" -- ? Or possibly no change at all or a huge SNAFU due to his lack of experience?

Here's what my almost 74-year-old husband has said, and I quote:

"Obama is the latest in a long line of politicians who -- in order to be elected -- will tell you whatever you want to hear. He does it well. Without credentials, he skillfully paints a picture that allows the viewer to see whatever is desired to be seen. Fall for it, and this Rorschach test says you are hopelessly naïve."

Ahem, Radio Lady is not responsible for the creation of this thought, just the posting.

Reminder: Husband is a dedicated Democrat, and we will vote for the ticket -- not holding our noses -- but definitely with our fingers crossed.

[eridani]

68. Or maybe he busts a REPUKE frame by running on "good judgment"

--instead of "toughness"? Or refuses to use the REPUKE "elitist" frame because he thinks more than two weeks into the future, because he knows that it will harm any Dem in the GE?

His credentials are his campaign management, IMO. Clinton has proven herself unqualified by simply refusing to think more than a month ahead. She isn't the slightest bit interested in growing local Dem parties, can't manage money, and has the gawdawful judgment to hire a shitstain consultant like Mark Penn instead of some competent organizers.

[eridani]

60. So we run a candidate whose themes are "experience" and "toughness"

--against a Repuke who beats the bejeezus out of her in those two areas?

[Ken Burch]

81. I said other than that. And besides, If Obama did drop out

(If you meant they both should drop out, that would be different.)

[Secret_Society]

67. Needs to take a more progressive stance on Healthcare

[hulklogan]

72. If he marches in a GLBT pride parade and sends Michelle to a gay bar to campaign

it would make me much more trusting of his "support" of LGBT Americans.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

75. garnishing of real dem votes

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. "a silver spoon Republican operative."

That's just fucking retarded.

[olkaz]

82. Seriously, go vote for McCain and become a conservative.

If you **really** believe Obama is a Republican operative, you'd do us more good on the other side.

We could at least then get some laughs out of this sort of thing.

[Ken Burch]

85. You aren't really saying that the Obama campaign is a GOP plot, are you?

Why can't you accept the fact that your candidate is losing because most Democrats actually don't support her?

I know you're loyal to your candidate, but she was always the less popular choice in the heads up matches with the GOP.

[Marrah_G]

87. Okay Ken here is the big one for me

I want a detailed plan as to how he is going to get gas prices down. Heat, food and fuel prices are pushing my family over the edge. Some of the analysts are predicting 8 dollar gas in the near future.

I don't want to hear just some long term bullshit about some plan that will come to fruition in 15-20 years. I want to know what he plans to do right away so I can still support my family. Not 20 years from now....but 2 years from now.

If he came up with something good, that could actually work, it would impress me alot.

No one else has come up with one yet.

[RichardRay]

90. Probably because there ISN'T such a plan....

at least not one that will work.

We've spent decades working our way into this mess, it's gonna take awhile to get us out; probably a lot longer than two years. The best any government can do in the interim is try to blunt the pain. Claiming any sort of a short term solution is dishonest.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. The truth of the matter is, oil is a finite resource. It's only going to get more expensive.

Anyone who promises you ooodles of cheap gas is lying to you. Period.

We need to find renewable, clean ways to power our shit. Pronto.

[thunderdog]

88. The only policy shift that the next Prez can directly affect is Iraq.

Everything else will be directed by the Congress...which is controlled by the who gives the most money.

Unfortunately, I cannot count that far.

[LWolf]

92. Well, you didn't ask me,

since I'm not a Clinton supporter, but a big shift on the following key points could earn my support:

1. REAL universal health care. Embrace HR 676.

2. Public education: drop the support for right-wing favorites like merit pay and charter schools, and take a strong stance against high-stakes testing.

3. Take war, or use of the military, as an instrument of international policy "off the table." No more bogus "war on terror." No more U.S. presence in Iraq.

There are plenty more, but if I believed he would actually DO those 3, I'd vote for him.

[Ken Burch]

94. As a Kucinich supporter turned Obama supporter(after Dennis was forced out)

I have no argument with any of your points.

We will need to organize a constant series of political actions, using innovative and surprising tactics, in order to get whomever we elect to actually be worthy of our votes.

[KoKo]

113. Thank the Stars, God or Whatever or Not that Dennis never wore a "Flag Pin" n/t

[Solon]

103. I would add a few more policy shifts to earn more of what little support he has now from me...

4. On energy, liquefied coal and clean coal technologies are a sham, Obama should abandon support for them and emphasize conservation over trying to burn or use up the last drop in fossil fuels we have left.

5. On the Environment, abandon Cap and Trade policies for air pollution, this will just ensure that the worst polluters will remain the worst polluters, will not do much for local air quality or pollution in many areas of the country.

6. Free Trade, he gives lip service to "reforming" free trade agreements to include things like human rights and health, safety and environmental standards, but frankly his votes are inconsistent with this, and I trust him on this issue about as far as I can throw him physically.

[LWolf]

104. I agree with all of those, as well.

To be honest, he'd have to shift just about every position he's got to earn my real support.

To earn my vote, we could start with those I mentioned.

[Solon]

105. I think the only thing I actually agree with him on is indexing Minimum wage with inflation...

of course, I actually think this is half-hearted at best, I'm more interested in creating a federal living wage, one that isn't a hard number, but is instead calculated by determining the differing costs of living across the nation. The wage would be local, to reflect the differing costs of living involved. A worker in New York would have a higher living wage than someone working in Kansas, but both would be able to LIVE off of their respective wages. That's what we should be working towards.

ON EDIT: I should clarify, this is the only item on his economic agenda that I support, on most social issues, he's OK, excepting the War on Drugs, where he takes a centrist position of supporting Medical Marijuana but not total decriminalization or legalization, and on GLBT rights, he opposes Marriage Equality, which is a huge problem for me.

[LWolf]

106. A true living wage should be a priority, I agree. n/t

[LittleBlue]

95. Policy shift? Sex change more like it

That's all they care about anyway, doesn't matter who the candidate is. As long as it lacks penis.

[StevieM]

108. I'm a male, I could care less about electing a woman as president and I love Hillary (eom)

[Ken Burch]

109. OK, then what would it take to get you to accept ther reality that our nominee

is not GOING to be HRC?

She ran a tough race, but she doesn't have the votes.

We both know Obama's the nom. What does he have to do to get you inside the tent?

You would agree that he has no flaws that are so terrible it's worth throwing the race to McCain, I hope.

You would also, I hope, accept that it's intolerable to throw the race this year so that HRC could have another shot in 2012, wouldn't you?

[StevieM]

110. What I'll probably do is vote for Obama in the 2008 GE and vote against him in

the 2012 Democratic primaries. I can't imagine that he won't draw a primary challenger, given what a terrible president I expect him to be. I also don't think he is a nice person.

What if the roles were to reverse themselves? Hillary is not dropping out before June 3 or accepting Obama's PD argument. So he'll finish way short of the number of delegates he needs to wrap up the nomination. What if he is blown out of the race before the convention somehow? Scandal, etc. Would you vote for Hillary if she is the nominee?

Steve

[Ken Burch]

111. I've said I would repeatedly. I'll say it again.

But the reality is, she isn't going to be nominated. The party leaders know shoving her in and rejecting the popular choice would do too much damage.

I respect HRC as a person. But it would be too toxic to nominate her in the way she'd have to be nominated.
Imposing Humphrey or Scoop Jackson in '72 would've led us to a defeat just as bad as the one McGovern had.

[Rob_4_Obama]

117. If Obama is elected

I highly doubt there will be a credible primary challenger in 2012.

[StevieM]

119. I'd be shocked if there wasn't. If Obama is a terrible president, which I assume he will be,

then some Democrat, like Evan Bayh, Martin O'Malley or even Hillary Clinton will throw their hat into the ring.

Steve

[walldude]

107. Tried to rec.. 24 hr rule killed it...

I support Obama so I can't answer the question but I can say that this is one of the more productive threads I have seen in the past few weeks. These are the kind of threads we need to pull everyone (well almost everyone, the rest can kiss our blue asses) together.

[KoKo]

112. When Hillary sports a "Flag Pin" on her Pant's Suit Jacket!

:D

BTW...I voted for Obama in the NC Primary, but want Hillary to stay in the Primaries until the last vote and Delegate (Super and all) are counted!

I got pissed when Obama suddenly sported a "Flag Pin" which to me is the symbol of "caving" because "Flag Pins" didn't become the "In Thing" until "9/11." Remember "Freedom Fries?" Would Obama have supported that as an "Anti-War" Candidate at that time like he suddenly pandered with dreaded RW/Nazi like tactics of wearing a "Flag Pin" like Mainstream Media and all the Repug Clones?

[Marie26]

114. A few things

- REAL universal health care
- dump the neoliberal economic advisers; define his economic approach, embrace mixed government, reject Friedmanite free-market ideology.
- Address the harm globalization has done to working-class, and create strategies to help ameliorate this harm. Pledge to strengthen human rights & env. protections in free-trade treaties.
- speak strongly against the contracting & privatization of gov. (I've heard Hillary say this, not Obama). Pledge not to privatize Social Security.
- Pledge to get rid of NCLB. (not just modify)
- A better environmental plan. Drop his plan for big subsidies for liquefied coal. Apologize for voting for and/or pledge to rescind the Cheney Energy Bill. He's too beholden to coal/nuclear power interests.
- Incorporate a more populist message, plans to help the working poor similar to Edwards.

And beyond the policies, I personally would like to see some more real anger & empathy from Obama in order to really trust him. Go after the Bush/Cheney Admin, express outrage at how they've hurt America. So far the only real anger I've seen from Obama is when something damages him (IMO). I'll vote for him regardless, but if Obama did some of these things, I could be truly enthusiastic about him.

[OzarkDem]

115. His credibility is the problem

I wouldn't be swayed by any change in policy as I feel it wouldn't be honest, just pandering for votes.

[Rob_4_Obama]

118. Wow-harsh

Harsh post indeed.

[Rob_4_Obama]

116. Unfortunately, I doubt a majority oppose him on policy grounds

I won't get into it further however.