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O.K., I'm gonna give it to you straight, fellow Obama supporters. It ain't pretty.

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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:47 AM
Original message
O.K., I'm gonna give it to you straight, fellow Obama supporters. It ain't pretty.
Despite the automatic fundraiser she is for the GOP, despite being a one-woman GOP GOTV, despite the strangulation it would mean of Obama's message about new politics, despite that video clip to be played on continuous loop on MSM of her endorsement of McCain's credentials at the expense of Obama's, despite the alienation of some of his African American base, despite her credibility problems and republican-symapthetic senate votes and her husband's baggage and pending court case, despite all this Hillary Clinton is going to be Barack Obama's VP, unless she decides otherwise.

Why? Her campaign's meme about popular vote has stuck and stuck hard. It actually seems like a real argument to the MSM. On its surface--and let's be honest, the surface is where MSM lives--it seems like a democratic argument. The people should decide, after all. Why shouldn't most of them have their way? Yes, it makes absolute sense. And, I think most of us here would prefer a process that dumps delegates of all kinds in favor of a popular vote total deciding who gets the nomination. But this, of course, has nothing to do with the rules in place.

Pledged delegates determined the strategies both campaigns put in place, and the Obama campaign designed such a groundbreakingly effective strategy to cop delegates that it even won a huge state, TX, while losing the popular vote there. Were they intent on capturing the popular vote totals, they would have run up the score in Illinois, poured it on in Mississippi, funneled dollar over dollar to Alabama, etc. etc etc etc, to milk every last vote, even if not a cost-effective way to affect the proportional allocation of a handful of more pledged delegates. But the Obama camp efficiently maximized its pledged delegate totals instead of its popular vote totals, and now is assured of the Democratic nomination. The supers have never failed to ratify the party's pledged delegate leader, and of course Obama already leads in supers, too.

But the popular vote meme, however disingenuous, has stuck. It's a product of effective communication, even if it's born out of desperation and self-interest. But the fact remains that it's stuck. But isn't Obama ahead in popular vote? Yes, easily ahead, by just under 600K votes, omitting of course the primaries that don't count. Throw in the reweighting of caucus states as hypothtical primary states and throw in actual vote estimates from caucus states that did not report them, and Obama is up by a couple million votes at least. At a minimum, Real Clear Politics has him up over 700K with caucus actual votes estimated and included (but not with those states weighted as if they'd been primary states, which, again, would've put him up by much more.)

But none of that matters to the MSM. All that matters is the recorded actual vote totals when discussing The Popular Vote, and credit the Clinton campaign for its successful planting of this additional notion: that the primaries that don't count actually should count when we're talking about vote totals. Really, it's not that much of a stretch once you get the rules out of the way to shape the rest of the discussion. Once delegates are discarded, it doesn't matter if a state is allocated any delegates or not when talking about The Popular Vote. And so we add Florida to the mix, where both candidates were "on the ballot," and Obama's lead shrinks to just under 300K. And what the hell, one candidate was on the ballot in Michigan, too. (This, by the way, has been masterfully framed by the Clinton camp as a "political" decision of Obama's to remove his name from the ballot there, when, of course, it was the coldest of premeditated political calculations that saw Clinton keep her name ON the ballot there.) Again, remember, the rules are long out the window anyway at this point. Delegates are done. We're measuring popular vote and popular vote only, regardless of party rules and pre-signed agreements. Kudos to the Clinton camp for so successfully placing such a perverse argument into the MSM, which now only rather sheepishly challenges the Clinton camp's rigging of the popular vote totals to make Clinton and only Clinton the popular vote leader by 17K.

Now....just to recap: none of the above can result in Clinton garnering the nomination. The specious popular vote argument only politically buys her the "right" to keep campaigning. But, in my opinion, also will buy her a massive measure of clout and consideration for the VP slot, despite the fact that the very reason she must resort to this argument indicates a THE COLOSSAL STRATEGIC FAILURE of her campaign, calls into question her ability to use and allocate resources, and reveals her utter mismanagement of a large-scale operation. Regardless, in the end, she will have more popular votes almost certainly by her campaign's measurement of those votes and the MSM's regurgitation of those numbers. Obama will blow her out in OR, lose in KY, win Montana and South Dakota, and lose electoral giant/GE-nonfactor Puerto Rico. By Tuesday he will easily have accumulated the majority of pledged delegates, and it's possible the supers will put him officially over the top for the nomination before all the votes are counted June 3.

In my opinion, the Obama campaign ought to present to the rules committee a plan to pay for revotes in FL and MI. Clinton can't compete in either state. She's broke, he's flush. The bogus popular vote totals would be wiped away and replaced with actual vote totals. The actual delegate breakdowns wouldn't hurt him in a real vote that is sanctioned by the party. Nobody gets disenfranchised, and the matter goes away. Chances for this must be less than slim, yet for about the price of buying out the Clinton camp's debt he could campaign in both states and end the false discussion.

But that likely won't happen. Instead, she'll have more popular votes when it's all said and done, according to her, and there will be a major outcry to put her on the ticket. They'll say she's earned the right. It won't matter that she's beholding to Limbaugh for Texas and Indiana and elsewhere for her popular vote lead. It won't matter that popular vote is a metric by which no campaign intentionally played and that no rule sanctioned. The one thing her campaign DID DO effectively was reframe the discussion around that meaningless metric, and now it's going to be damn near impossible to keep her off the ticket, despite the damage it'll do to the Obama campaign.

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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pass me the snuke
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. ROFL
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. ...
:rofl:
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Don't bogart that joint my friend
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. Obama can't change his message to Change: Back to the Future.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
54. Or "I'll be looking back over my shoulder
the whole time to check on :wtf: bilary has cooked up for the day".

NO Way..Obama hasn't come this far to give in to the dlc shitshovelers.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
4. I Give Obama More Credit Than You Do
I think he will pick whoever he thinks will do the best job. I don't think he will be bullied into selecting Hillary.
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. what you said. EOM
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. VP choice is Obama's alone to make and he won't take her as VP at gunpoint.
But I fully encourage you to keep trying to force the issue. That tactic seems to follow the general bullying theme of the Clinton campaign which has worked out so nicely for them so far. :eyes:
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
39. I hear you AK, but I am worried that Obama will succumb to the pressure. If he does . .
he's lost my vote for sure. I'll sit just sit this one out.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. It would be the antithesis of his message that is resonating - hers not so much.
Edited on Fri May-16-08 11:37 AM by AtomicKitten
Obama has run his campaign brilliantly so far and he has become the powerhouse of the party which has rendered the Clintons impotent and now reduced to yelling at cloud. ;)

All the Clintons' blustery talk is blowing smoke up the electorate's keister. They've got nothing (and that includes the hundreds of thousands of Operation Chaos votes).

I concur with your remedy but, no worries - Obama has beaten the Clinton Machine fair and square and there is no second place in politics. Now we wait for that harsh reality to set in.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. I think Obama won't be shoved into making such a disastrous concession...
But, as I said before, I'm not voting for Hillary. If Obama were to choose her as his VP, I would not vote for Obama, and it wouldn't just be becaue of my "no-Hillary-vote" stance, but because it would show such bad judgment on Obama's part that I would not have confidence in him as Commander-in-Chief.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Obama will win the popular vote, so what's the point?
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I'd like to think so, but if he doesn't win it by her metric, it'll remain a win for her.
Not by your standards or my standards or any reasonable standards, but by hers and MSM's. How do you see him doing that?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Nah, she's already seen as a loser and a race baiter.
She's radio active.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. "HER" metric? Who made her the decider?
How about deciding things based upon THE metric... which means we're counting delegates.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. here here. but tell that to the MSM. they're increasingly buying her lines.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. that's just some bullshit they are saying to sell Viagra commercials...it will die past june.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. And since when has the MSM truly favored the Democrats? That's a red flag right there
they're pushing this ticket because they know full well that Clinton is toxic and that boosts McCain's chances as the Republicans mobilize against her.

Clinton's negatives and untrustworthiness numbers are not going anywhere.

Her racist/'Hillary or no one'/Rushbot voting bloc is a write-off.

Reasonable Dems will vote to keep McCain out of office.

Obama brings new and crossover voters into the fold like no one else.

Pelosi and Kennedy have said "no dream ticket" and the Clintons lies and slams against Obama and the DNC and the Democratic Party are not doing anything to endear them to or increase their leverage with her colleagues in Washington.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. Hmm... I think by any reasonable account if Michigan and Florida were to revote...
he'd narrowly win Michigan and she'd win Florida 55 to 45 give or take a few. Even with a revote she'd still lose the popular vote.

The only metric she could win is to count 2 illegitimate elections (elections without campaigning are inherently illegitimate) but discount the legitimate caucuses.

Lou Dobbs does not the MSM media make.

I think in a few weeks this will all be over, all will be forgiven and the Clintons will be endorsing Obama. Then for about 5 months all the white Democrats can tell all the stupid white uninformed voters that now stupidly say "Obama is a muslim" to vote for Obama or they will be clearly fucked and like the sheep they are, they will follow.

That's reality.

Hillary and Bill are not going to hold their breath and kill the party. If they did, they'd ruin her senate career and any chance of her ever being President. They'd also ruin Chelsea's potential career in politics too.

They may be power seeking but they are not totally stupid.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
64. Her metric? Her metric is "white people" now
Edited on Sat May-17-08 07:59 AM by kenny blankenship
Specifically, white people in Appalachia. She lost everything else.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Good. He has the popular vote.
Stick that.
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pbca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. Hillary won't be VP unless she runs with McCain
The Clintons are over
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. Not going to happen. I highly doubt Obama is that stupid.
Edited on Fri May-16-08 10:55 AM by dkf
Hillary is a general election loser and I'm not going to let Obama waste our time and money by putting her on the ticket.

The Obama campaign floated the idea of assisting Hillary to pay her debts and the answer from everyone was No Frickin Way.

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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. another one of these "she's inevitable" threads
Hillary doesn't help Obama get more votes, because a significant portion of
her supporters, (as you saw in WVA) are racially motivated.

Those will vote for McCain anyway.

The real democrats will vote for democrats.

I also have a feeling that many in the democratic party are uncomfortable
with giving the Clintons even MORE power.

They are dangerous enough, and appear willing to destroy the democratic party
in order to satisfy their own goals.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:59 AM
Original message
Exactly. She brings nothing to the table but a lot of baggage.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
61. I don't think the party leadership wants to continue to encourage
their MO. And, whose VP will Hillary be? Obama's or Bill's? It would be too difficult.
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Shelterdog Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
16. This is disturbing on SO many levels.
Horrible and funny at the same time.


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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. well, how about this one, it really won't go away:
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
51. looks like a future McCainiac to me
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. If --IF -- HRC wants the VP slot, there will be a lot of pressure on Obama to put her on the ticket
But I have serious doubts that HRC will want to be on the ticket. I see very little "up side" for her in being a VP candidate. If Obama wins, her options going forward are limited. If Obama is popular, he's in for two terms and while she could possibly run in 2016, that's a long time off. If Obama has problems in his first term (and I'm not in any way suggesting I expect that to be the case), such as to warrant his giving up a second term run or as to trigger a challenge from within the party for the nomination, as VP -- and a part of the administration -- HRC is out of the running in 2012. If Obama runs with HRC on the ticket and loses, HRC could make a run in 2012, but the fact that she was on a losing ticket in 2008 isn't going to strengthen her position -- look at Edwards, for example. He was a stronger candidate for the nomination in 2004 than he was in 2008.

I could see her wanting one of her supporters -- a Ted Strickland, for example -- to be on the ticket (and I know Strickland says he's not interested, but its early still), more than I can see her taking the spot for herself.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
19. That ticket may garner more Democratic votes, but it would lose
Republican votes in the GE -- and THAT'S who we're running against. I think you're wrong.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. part of Hillary's supporters are racially motivated, they'll vote McCain anyway
The real democrats who support her will vote for the democratic nominee.

I know a few - no way a real dem would vote for McCain.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. But in addition to the Dem votes --
we need to draw over votes from the Republicans as well. I don't think Hillary on the ticket would be much of a draw for them.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
22. I think her negatives outweigh any postives.
CNN did a bit on this a while ago. First of all, her old cronyism type of politics is exactly what Obama is campaigning against. And what president wants Bill Clinton around? They said it would essentially be a shadow government with him pulling the strings, not to mention all the appointments and such he would demand for his friends.

He would be contradicting his own message.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
24. Her Negatives Are Too High, She Would Galvanize The Cons
and she brings no advantage in terms of location. All she brings is the so called vaunted Clinton machine and if you read the article in the New Republic about what went wrong, this is not a group that can get you elected, despite the huge advantage they had starting out. He'd be crazy to put her on the ticket. A cabinet post I can see. If she hadn't made that unfortunate statement about obliteration, she'd make a good sec. of state.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. Your reasoning 'ain't pretty'. Retool it and get back to us. nt
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. Sorry, but just sayin or wanting it don't make it happen.
If it did I'd be completely wealthy and married to Brad Pitt AND George Clooney at the same time.

-----


I don't really carry too much rancor for Hil or her supporters, but after a while it gets kinda old to hear her ambitions get thrown out there ss some distinct reality. We've had so many different definitions of "is" in this election that we really can't discern reality any more.

The nominee picks a VP. Nobody but Obama knows who that will be--and HE may not even know yet. As for the popular vote meme, even THAT is pretty much DOA given the state of the numbers.

Can't we just give it up already?




Laura
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. I'd love the MSM to give it up. But they won't.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. I slowed down with the "popular vote" part since it's a perception
Edited on Fri May-16-08 11:04 AM by mmonk
pushed on her supporters rather than a salient fact and agree to much of what you're saying. Bottom line is I'm not vehemently opposed to her being on the ticket. I am opposed to the pressure when it's Obama's decision to make.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Don't hijack this thread, Robot!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
34. A Joint Ticket Is Hands Down The Best Choice For Our Chances In November.
I continue to cross my fingers that scenario will be the case.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
35. I bet you a star for a DUer Hillary Clinton is not the Democratic Nominee for VP in 2008.
(The third Clinton-will-be-VP poster I've asked. None has accepted.)
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Let us know when you get a taker
I'm getting sick of all the talk and no real hard backing behind it.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. OK, I'm in, BlooInBloo. It'll be the happiest star I've ever bought if I have to buy it.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. WOOT!!! It's on!
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. believe me, we're both pulling for you to win this one....
but unless the Obama camp reframes the silly Popular Vote argument, or there are actual revotes, then I think we'll both be disappointed.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Even better when my opponent is rooting for me!!!!
:rofl:
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Shelterdog Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
36. Hillary also wanted the presidency. She didn't get it.
Guess what, it's a new day in the Democratic Party.

The Clintons no longer get everything they want. It's no longer about THEM.

Come November, folks will quit laughing at West Virginia.

:crazy:
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. Welcome to DU!
Primary Election time is not the best introduction to DU. I do hope you'll make it out of GP Primaries so you can see DU is all its aspects.

Welcome to you!

:hi:



Laura
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anamnua Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
40. No way!!!!!!
She is a woman of integrity and she has political nous. She is not going to end up as Obama's political mudguard even if he got down on both knees and pleaded with her. There is no way she will diminish herself by associating with this ersatz messiah.Incidentally the OP has peddled some spurious memes of its own. The Texas result proved unequivocally that the caucus system with its tilt against blue collar workers and working mothers effectively slanting things his way. If it were closed primaries all around he would be out the loop by now. I could go on about 'reinforcements' arriving from distant parts but I'll leave that aside.
To get back to the main point this woman of maturity is simply not going to play second fiddle to a character with the resume the size of a postage stamp.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. couldn't disagree more, of course, but welcome to DU.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
44. no thanks, hillary is morally bankrupt.
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
49. won't happen unless we want to lose
the republicans have a bunch of stuff they have been eagerly waiting to use against her and chomping at the bit about it. Its not just baggage its how they will use that baggage and new stuff they have found, believe me they have found stuff and are holding it for if she runs in any form, thats why msm is practically begging for her to be vp because they know mccain will win.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
52. I'll give to you straight up..ace.
NO, SHE'S THE FUCK NOT.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
53. No way. She doesn't want to wait 8 years. She'd rather try to kneecap him and come back in 4
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
55. When Mark Penn was plotting her Super Tuesday strategy
Edited on Fri May-16-08 12:37 PM by Hippo_Tron
It probably went something like this...

"Well if we make sure to win California and all of the other 'big states' then the media will definitely crown her the winner and give her the momentum"

David Axelrod instead asked the obvious question of "Okay, so how can I net the most delegates out of this thing while using as few resources as possible?"

This is why Obama is going to be the nominee and Clinton will not. Axelrod ran a brilliant strategy and Penn ran her into the ground.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
56. Um, no.
Bad idea.
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AnarchoFreeThinker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I agree, it's a horrible idea. I'm talking about the political reality (unreality) of the situation
which ain't pretty.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
57. Take the time to re-read all these
replies. This has nothing to do with whomever is the VP candidate for Obama. It is just another opportunity to bash Hillary Clinton. Unlike some of you I can't predict what will happen. This election will travel at its own pace. But the vindictiveness about Hillary Clinton should make anyone be ashamed. There is no civility left here. She is running for president just like Obama is. She has as much right as he does. And many of you trash her with absolute glee! I don't go around trash-talking Obama. I am happy he got into the election race. We need variety. They both have much to offer. Our country's future is at stake. That should be our main goal. We do not need Bush 3 in the office. I fully believe John McCain has mental problems. The president we have now is enough for a lifetime.
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. I suggest you take the time to read some
Clintons supporters post and experience first hand vile from them,
this thread is child's play compared to some of the Obama bashing
posts/threads, at least this OP is taking time to explain how the
Clinton machine has manipulated MSM into thinking that they (Clinton)
have the popular votes.

I don't see any vitriol or vindictiveness except when you read the post
you pick that out from how she has run her campaign, no one needs to
spell that out because it is there for all to see.

Please take into consideration her racist remarks, sexism.... oh, by the
way, did you see the post yesterday saying how women will organize their
own swiftboat to go after Obama? did you?? I guess not.... when you speak
of vindictiveness thats where you need to look and also Clinton supporters
are quick to use derogatory terms when mentioning Obama.

Think about this....
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
60. That argument of Clinton
going to the convention and twisting arms into letting her
win the nomination is like Rush, Bill'O and Hannity speaking
gibberish to their ditto heads and they (ditto heads) in turn
running around screaming foul play.

Fortunately, everybody knew the rules...these where the same rules
the Clinton campaign put into play by Baghdad Bob when he was
party chairman, its not gonna wash.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
63. morning kick
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
65. Popular Vote: "Disingenuous" "Meme" "Seems Like a Real Argument" "Specious"
Edited on Sat May-17-08 08:27 AM by Crisco
Oh, you're good, almost.

If the Democratic party doesn't want its candidate chosen by non-elites in a popular vote, they should take it back to the smoke-filled rooms and drop the marketing schemes.

PS - Obama outspent Clinton by - how much? 50% more? - and had Pelosi & Reid backing him, plus 90% of the liberal blogosphere, and Tweety & Olbermann barking in the midway every night. I think Clinton spent her budget pretty well, all things considered.
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