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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 01:31 AM
Original message
Do We WANT to Lose?
My fellow Democrats,

I doubt I'm the first to broach this subject, but...

Polls which purport to show that considerable numbers of Clinton backers will either not vote in the general election, or worse, vote for John McCain are disturbing to say the least. Also, while the numbers may be smaller, a sizable chunk of Obama supporters have said they would not vote for Clinton should she be the nominee.

For Pete's sake people, aren't you tired of losing? We must unite, and soon. OK, I am a longstanding Obama supporter, and I know just how disappointed I would be feeling if he were in the position Hillary is in. I sympathize with all of you who are Clinton supporters, and I have great sympathy for the lady herself; she has campaigned tirelessly for over 16 months, only to find herself in a situation where winning the nomination is extraordinarily unlikely. I am also acutely aware that it is just too easy for me to speak of unity when my chosen candidate is so close to clinching the nomination.

Yet believe me, had (well, 'if' it isn't entirely over) Clinton won the nomination, while I would have been very disappointed, I sure as God would have voted for her over McCain in the general election. I pray that, should Obama be the nominee which now appears almost certain, that Senator Clinton will work vigorously to help unite the party, and help defeat McCain in November. Polls be damned: I truly find it hard to believe that Democratic supporters of Senator Clinton would vote for John McCain, or at best, simply stay home on election day.

This country cannot take four more $@%$@#^! years of a far-right, Republican administration. Let's close ranks, and take the Whitehouse.

Robert
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. These threads never end good...
you're either preaching to the choir or pissing in the wind;)

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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
50. Wise Words Indeed
Well Mcctatas, it seems that you have been proven painfully right.

(Sigh)

Robert
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #50
76. Some things are ridiculously predictable...
;)
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very sage advice, but if I were you.........INCOMING!
:hide:
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Thanks for the Advice...
I am jumping into my slit trench as we speak. :(

Robert
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rove karl rove Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. one can win the primary but lose the general
The other one will lose the primary but could win the general, so there's no perfect choice. What I'm going to do if Obama wins the nomination is to go and vote, campaign for him anyways, but I believe it'll be a losing cause. That sucks.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
37. Yep, and we have plenty of losers to draw on:
Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry, etc.

Clinton was the only one who managed to win twice since FDR. But, now he and his wife have been thrown under the bus by the left wing of the party. THEY are the ones who seem to love to lose. They managed to get Carter elected and, as wonderful as he is as a person, he was a lousy president.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. sigh Yes Clinton got elected twice in a three way election with
two Republicans now if you can get Ross Perot to come back it will be great.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. Why do some people expect everyone to think the same thing at the same time?
Here's my problem with threads like this one: They always presume that every person who posts at DU is on the same page with the author of the thread.

Can you accept that every person on each side is on their own schedule? Can you accept that every person doesn't arrive at the point you have arrived at simultaneously?

There has been a battle for the nomination, and until Hillary concedes, declares her support for Obama, and instructs her supporters to get behind Obama, we will be in a state of flux. When that happens, THEN and only THEN will the call for unity make any sense.

To all who share your view, I would suggest you should relax and stop getting so excited because not everyone agrees with your outlook on this topic.

There will be months and months to heal wounds, and until there is an unconditional surrender by Clinton, this war goes on.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. This is a very good response. n/t
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Texas, I Don't, Really...
Ms./Mr. Texas,

Believe me, in no way do I hold the presumption that everyone is "on the same page" as me. Also, perhaps I did not make myself entirely clear in my original post: I do realize that the race for the nomination continues. It's just that I have found the apparent bitterness between Obama and Clinton supporters to be of some concern. Of course I realize that others may have a different outlook on the matter than I do. That is why I post here: to read what other Democrats/progressives have to say. Those who disagree with me may or may not change my opinion/outlook, but they certainly will always inform it.

Thanks for replying.

Robert
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. that's cool
I've read many similar threads, and I simply responded to this one because I'm posting, it is here, and it is at the top. Now seemed as good a time as any to say what I wanted to say.

I'll be glad when Hillary shuts it down, but she is the only person who can do that, so we are all waiting on her to get that last morsel of ego gratification out of this.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
34. Robert, I am with Texas Observer (and I too am a Texan!) -
perhaps because we live with conflict at all times (just try to elect a dem from this state!), but we are on the same page.

It is going to be hard to get everyone on the same page and in a conciliatory mode while Hillary is still actively campaigning.

I am with you in spirit, and most of us know we've got to come together in November to get this done. Alot of us Obama supporters are impatient as well and want to get going against McCain, but we simply can't until Hillary concedes. I share your frustration.

Peace. TBF
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Hear, Hear.
Thanks for your kind words TBF, and, as I used to live in Kansas, where voting for the Democratic presidential candidate in the general election was an utter exercise in futility, I 'feel your pain.' ;-)

But anyway, let us not be too hard on 'ol Hillary. I mean, let's remember that this tough lady has been pounding away for over sixteen exhausting months. Even with only the slimmest chance of winning the nomination, it should not be surprising that she has chosen to stay in to the end. In her shoes, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same.

In any event, I eagerly look forward to our setting our sights on McCain, and I am optimistic that we Democrats will present a united front in November.

Cheers,

Robert
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. "unconditional surrender by Clinton..." EXACTLY the reason for dismay.
Close to 50% of the party DOES NOT SUPPORT OBAMA, and yet you expect Unconditional Surrender by the Clinton Campaign and supporters.

Who are you...General GRANT? I suggest to the Obama Camp that a little history reading of the Civil War and reconstruction will fill you in on how ANY Americans feel about hearing those words applied to them.

CAVEAT: this is a Sociological issue, and if any idiots want to imply some stupid Confederacy or Racist slant to this, Then I say Evil to him who evil thinks.
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
43. Unconditional Surrender
Tyler,

Well, I'm not sure if your post is directed primarily at me, but, as I originated this thread, allow me to respond.

I do not expect any sort of "unconditional surrender" from the Clinton Camp. No. I'm not General Grant and this ain't Fort Donelson. (Nor do I propose to "move immediately on your works.") It is up to Hillary alone to decide if she should leave or stay in the race. She seems to have made her decision, i.e. to stay through June, and so be it. My intent in starting this thread was to hear some opinions from both Hillary as well as Obama supporters on a subject which greatly concerns me, and that is the need for we Democrats, after the nomination is decided, to unite and save our country from four more years of a Republican administration. (OK, McCain would almost certainly be a cut above Bush, but so would my three year old niece.)

And for the record: anyone who makes the claim--with no supporting evidence--that someone who does not support Obama must be motivated by racism is every bit as idiotic as those who say that someone who doesn't support Hillary must be a sexist.

Cheers,

Robert
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. To be honest
I see Obama as more electable. That is part of the reason I went with him,albeit a small part.

The polls fail to take into account a sea change in how people vote as well as what people vote. Yhat is what election 2008 is all about.

The three congressional special elections solidifies this view.

It's hard to believe the new voters, the young voters, etc are truly represented properly in the voting population of these polls.

Statistics are reliable when the population used is reliable. hat seems to be changing--it is hard to believe those who bother to vote in a primary or caucus will not vote in a general election.

We need to fight as if we were forging uphill, but I realistically look at this as the 20th Maine charging down the slopes of Little Round Top.

WHEN the Hillary supporters get on board (and a vast majority will), the Democrats will be unstoppable from the
top to the bottom of the ticket.
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I Digress
"...the 20th Maine charging down the slopes of Little Round Top."

Led by the gallant Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, the Bowdoin professor who would rise to the rank of brigadier general, and win the Congressional Medal of Honor for the action you describe. ;)

Robert

P.S. Yes indeed: let's (figuratively) follow the 20th Maine's example come November.
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Secret_Society Donating Member (466 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. This will not be a sea change
Sorry in advance. This is a rant, I haven't had access to a comp for a couple days and just some stuff I wanted to say on this electability topic

I do not support Obama. Of course, I will vote for the Democratic nominee. I don't think I could handle pulling the lever for a Republican. I envision an Obama win, but a squeaker. Take the Gore map from 2000 and add Colorado. That make it 269-269. I think Obama can take Nevada also to put him over the top. This will not be a landslide, however. I truly believe that Florida is not in play for Obama. He should not spend money there when it be spent on organizing in Oregon, Nevada, and New Mexico. In addition, I have for numerous elections heard the refrain either that young voters aren't being polled (e.g. cellphones) or that the Dems will pull it out with a huge voter registration and GOTV drive. Neither of these ever seems to materialize much to my chagrin. If only that actually happened Kerry would have taken Ohio. Also, while those 3 new seats are great since those members will caucus with the Democrats, those were Conservative Democrats. While those wins do illustrate discontent with Republicans, I fear that those victories will be extrapolated to the extreme. My GREAT fear is losing California. I know that sounds ridiculous, but the two latest polls show Obama up by 7. Looking at California, it is clear that they aren't adverse to electing moderate Republicans. An no matter what is the reality about McCain, people perceive him as a moderate.

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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Hardly a Rant...
Hey Bro (or Sis), what you wrote was in no way a "rant"; you touch on some important points.

Believe me, I share your skepticism, at least to some degree, on what may very well prove to be Pollyanna predictions. While it is clear that the young voters are turning out to significantly greater degree than in past elections, this alone will certainly not guarantee a Democratic victory. Also, I agree with you that one should not make too much of Democratic victories in those three special elections which took place in seriously red districts, at least as far as concerns the presidential race; I do not think that they present any real bellwether in re Obama vs. McCain. However, I wouldn't worry about losing California--I think it's safely in the blue zone. (I know, if we did lose Cali, forget it.)

Robert
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Yes, i don't understand
why we should take the chance. With both candidates we stand a better chance than if we go out on one extreme limb or the other.

Can't we learn from experience. If we can just get past all of the neocon media propaganda, maybe we would realize that a Clinton is the only Democrat to have won the White House in three decades. (Yes, I know that Gore won. If he would run again, he would win again.)

Isn't getting the republicans out of office worth a little personal disgruntlement?

As far as California goes, we need to consider the impact of the republican shell game there. Their judges toss the gay marriage issue into play, not because it is the right thing to do, but because it will make it even harder for Catholic Hispanics to vote Democratic, a segment where Barack already has problems. Winning the Berverly Hills crowd won't be enough. That state has had some seriously conservative proposals before. If Arnie campaigns with McCentury (got that from another poster), it could be a problem.

So again. Why risk it? Just getting to stamp little feet and spit at Hillary seems like a poor trade for living with eternal war and losing two more SC seats.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. Kerry was saddled with Terry MacAuliffe 's DNC
Obama has Howard Dean and the 50-state strategy. I expect there to be a much greater GOTV effort in this election compared to previous elections. Remember, this is Obama's strength. Neither Kerry or Gore (or even Clinton) had the kind of organization country-wide that Obama will have this November. I think you will be surprised at the turnout in this election (at least on the Democratic side)
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. Terry MacAuliffe
While I certainly bear no personal ill will to the man, I must say that 'ol Terry sometimes gets on my last nerve when I see him interviewed. While this is only postulation--I'm not privy to the inner-workings of the Clinton campaign--I somehow suspect that he didn't serve Hillary too well. I remember back when we Democrats got our asses handed to us in '02; interviewed shortly after the full results were in and the scale of the debacle was entirely clear, Mr. MacAuliffe was close to cartoonish in the absurd arguments he made as he oh-so-enthusiastically tried to put a positive spin on everything. ("But we won four governorhips!" Yes Terry, and we also lost the f*cking Senate and nicely padded the Republican majority in the House.)

To be fair, Dean did not face quite as daunting a challenge as MacAuliffe did in '02 and '04. Yet I think there can be little question that he has been a far more effective chairman of the DNC. His 50-state strategy was vindicated, I believe, as the Democrat's retook the House and Senate in '06. One has to remember that before the midterm elections, many in the party believed that the Democrats should focus their resources on those elections which they could be confident of winning, and that taking on the Republicans in the red states would be a wasteful diversion. Senator Jon Tester's win in Montana and Senator Jim Webb's victory in Virginia are but two examples of how Dean's strategy paid off.

As to the general election, it is doubtless not lost on Dean that, while the Democratic nominee may not ultimately win a given red state, keeping it competitive will force the Republicans to spend time and money that they would rather devote to the critical swing states, and help us to keep the initiative, which is no less critical in a presidential campaign than it is in war.

Robert
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. When we are competive across the ballot
for a majority of races in a majority of districts in a majority of states, it is a sea change.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
73. Please be aware that at least 2 of those seats were won by
DINOs (I don't know about Hastert's seat and don't feel like looking it up). While beggars can't be choosers, in a non-presidential election year we are usually fighting to get the DINOs out of their seats because they are not consistent D votes. The win by the 3 Dems are nice in the demoralizing effect they have on Republicans but I wouldn't be quick to assume that this translates to an Obama win in any on these districts.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. I'll take a DINO over an R any day though
and Obama does not have to win them, he has to be competitive.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
12. it's not 'disappointment' that makes me not want to vote for O; it's being called a racist, having h
hillary called a bitch, and seeing the entire clinton family slandered in every false and vile way imaginable.
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I Hear You
Ms./Mr. VotesForWomen,

Listen, I know that there are a few Obama supporters who go way overboard, to say the least. Yet, as I hope you'd agree, none of the outrageous accusations you mention originated from Senator Obama or his campaign. I realize that not everything the Obama campaign has leveled at Hillary has been entirely fair or accurate. (Although I do think that both campaigns have admirably refrained from cheap shots, more or less.) But do you really think that Obama is responsible for such vicious mis-characterizations of Senator Clinton and her family?

Not a rhetorical question; I would be interested to hear your response.

Robert

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Obama's supporters represent Obama.
They are, whether they realize it or not, his ambassadors or surrogates on a local level. Some of them have been his biggest liability and may cause him to lose. You can't toss insults and other bombs around one day and say "let's make up and by the way, you have to do what I want you to" the next. That's the definition of abuse.
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
49. Obama's Supporters
You certainly have a point there, Cornermouse, but, as an Obama supporter, I do believe that the majority of us are not like the morons you describe, just like most Hillary supporters aren't like the fraction of their number who (to give but one example) contend that any who do not support her are raving sexists. (I know: their counterparts in the Obama crowd are prone to making the absurd contention that any who do not support him are racists.)

Remember that the loudest, most obnoxious mouths are always going to garner disproportionate attention. Don't let these wankers sour you on Obama and the majority of his supporters. Yes, Obama's supporters do indeed represent Obama, but my experience has been that the jerks you speak of are a small,repugnant minority.

Yeah, let's make up, but hell no, you don't have to do what I want you to. ;-)

Robert
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
47. "a few Obama supporters who go way overboard..."??? More like thousands. Right here.
Edited on Mon May-19-08 10:28 PM by Seabiscuit
Every minute of every day since the primaries began.

I intend to vote for Obama in the GE if he's the nominee. Or for Hillary if she's the nominee.

But after seeing how Obamanoids have trashed DU, I'm very tempted to write in John Edwards or Al Gore instead. And I still have until November to find out what I'm really going to do.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
52. i think Obama has done nothing to discourage the misbehavior, and at a certain point one has to ass
Edited on Mon May-19-08 11:00 PM by VotesForWomen
assume that a clear pattern of thinking among his supporters reflects the candidate's thinking as well. there is also the fact that repeated insults such as "racist," "sexist," "man-hater," "bitch," tend to get taken personally after a while, and it makes it very hard to then vote for the candidate whose advocates were saying those things. i mean, how many times would clinton supporters have to call obama a nigger before many of his supporters would vow never to vote for her? seriously? many of them were ready to never vote for her after the 'fairy tale' comment from bill. this is also over and above whatever other concerns i and others have about Obama's suitability to be president.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Do you really think Obama reads DU?
It's one thing if it's a surrogate on TV, but to hold him responsible for what his supporters on a message board say is ridiculous. And as I pointed out last night, Clinton supporters here have hardly been angels...I wouldn't judge her on her supporters' behavior.
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. AMEN! (n/t)
..
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. if he doesn't, i'm sure some on his staff do, and he *must* know how the dialogue is shaping up. he
would be foolish not to be aware of what is going on in the 'blogosphere.' apparently he did just issue some 'be nice' comment, but it's a little too late. and as far as what goes on in real life, i have personally heard angry obama supporters call hillary a bitch. i have never called obama a nigger or any such thing, nor have i heard any other hillary supporter say such a thing. face it, the enthusiasm, shall we say, is very high for obama; that leads to some very nasty insults being made by his supporters, in between their professions of undying love and admiration.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Clinton supporters have hardly been angels
This is just a small sample of recent posts: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6023253

To suggest that a campaign is responsible for policing people on a message board it has no control over is absurd. Even if someone from the campaign came here and told us to chill out, it would not work. I have tried many times to tell Obama supporters to chill out and it does not work.

Like you said, there's a lot of passion, and that leads to high emotions sometimes. I don't think you would want us to judge Clinton by the stuff above, or the stuff on Hillaryis44 or Taylor Marsh. Would you want Clinton to be held responsible for the person on Hillaryis44 who said the other day that they hope Ted Kennedy dies?
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. well, i don't know; i think the primary needs to be changed to a one-day national primary, because t
this shit just drags on for too long, and unless one candidate wins by a landslide, it is inevitable that we will end up in just the situation we are in.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #56
74. It is beyond DU and Obama knows it - that is why he called for
his supporters to be nice to Clinton supporters.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. After having been called a sexist, traitor to my gender and cult member,
I feel your pain. I've also watched my candidate called names and seen his image, as a monkey, on a t-shirt. If you and those like you enable the election of John McCain, you will regret it. When women can no longer obtain safe abortions, when the military presence in the Middle East is increased, when you no longer have health insurance and are waiting in line with your $5,000 tax credit trying to buy a $12,000 policy and when the free market is allowed to "sort out the environment" (McCainspeak for "end of the world"), you'll wish you had voted Democratic.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. You don't feel my pain, Vinca
Believe me, you really don't.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Then try to feel mine. I cannot afford health insurance and every day
I suffer chronic pain from an untreated muscle injury in one of my legs. Mobility is becoming an issue. If John McCain is elected, it will mean my only hope of regaining a normal life is to emigrate to another country. That's my pain.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
53. i don't think entire states that went heavily for O were called 'sexist,' as if that was the only po
possible explanation as to why they didn't vote for hillary. and personally, i don't think 'cult member' and 'traitor to your gender' are as highly loaded insults as 'racist,' 'bitch,' 'man-hater' etc.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. I Honestly Don't See Much Difference Between Hillary And McCain
They both support the war and seem to want more. Neither wants to restore my rights. And both keep making ridiculous statements. Plus Hillary said she didn't care about me. On the plus side, it appears that I won't have to make that decision.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Not the most well-informed Democrat in the world, are you? Here's Hillary's excellent record.
Edited on Mon May-19-08 05:37 AM by Perry Logan
Please highlight the parts that remind you of John McCain:

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House :

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israel/index.cfm
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfur

The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

HILLARY'S EXPERIENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE:

Her historic speech at the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995 not only galvanized women around the world, it helped spawn a movement that led to advances politically, legally, economically, and socially for women in many countries over the next decade. Among other initiatives, she spearheaded the Clinton Administration's efforts to combat the global crisis of human trafficking. She persuaded the First Ladies of the Americas to use their collective power to eradicate measles and improve girls' education throughout the western Hemisphere. And she is widely credited with helping women in Kuwait finally win the right to vote.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Today, she is one of the most influential voices in the world on human rights, democracy, and the promotion of a "new internationalism" in foreign affairs that calls for a balanced use of military force, diplomacy, and social development to strengthen American interests and security globally.

While American First Ladies historically have made great (and often overlooked) contributions to our nation, Hillary Clinton's wide-ranging experience on international issues as First Lady is unprecedented. Indeed, she is the only First Lady to have delivered foreign policy addresses at major gatherings of the United Nations, the World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the World Economic Forum.

Hillary Clinton has been fighting for the rights of children for special needs for decades. In her first job out of law school working for the Children's Defense Fund, she conducted research that led to Congress passing the Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975, the landmark bill mandating that all children with disabilities be educated in the public school system. later, she helped improve the education of children with special needs by working to reauthorize the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. In 2005, she sponsored an amendment to increase funding for the act by $4 billion dollars. She also cosponsored the Personal Excellence for Children with Disabilities Act, a bill that promised to help schools recruit and retain new special education teachers, and better prepare general education teachers and staff to work with children with special needs.

Most recently, she has called for greatly expanded funding to the National Institute for Health to investigate treatments for children with disabilities. And she has put forth a comprehensive and detailed plan to help children and families affected by autism, with numerous elements that correspond very closely to what families in the autism community have been demanding for years.

some points on her legal career:

1969 Truehaft, Walker and Bernstein in Oakland, one of the most liberal law firms in the country. They defended the Panthers.
1970 Yale University - city legal services, provided free legal advice for the poor.
1971 Staff attorney, Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts
1971 Carnegie Council on Children, legal consultant.
1974 Impeachment Inquiry staff in Washington, D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.
1974 University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law - One of only two female faculty members.
1976 Worked pro bono on child advocacy.
1978 Jimmy Carter appoints Clinton to the board of the Legal Services Corporation.


Education

Wellesley College where she majored in political science.
Yale Law School, where she served on the Board of Editors of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action.

Political Activist Experience

Pragmatic Liberal

Always fascinated by radicalism, she wrote her senior thesis on a great radical organizer of poor people, Saul Alinsky of Chicago. Though when she was offered a job by Alinsky, after she wrote about him, and she turned him down--because she didn't think he was effective enough. She said to her boyfriend at that timebe in politics you have to win. And it didn't look to her like Alinsky was winning enough of his battles. She came to question his methodology and concluded in her thesis that larger government programs and funding were needed, not just community action at the grass roots.

She was the commencement speaker at Wellesley in 1969, chosen by her fellow students--there had never been a student commencement speaker there before. The scheduled speaker was Sen. Edward Brooke of Massachusetts, who Hillary had campaigned for, a Republican, the first black to be a member of the U.S. Senate in a hundred years. In his remarks he was patronizing, Hillary thought. He seemed to defend the Nixon administration's conduct of the war, and didn't mention the wrenching events of 68. When he finished, Hillary got up and extemporaneously excoriated him. As a result of that speech, she was featured in Life magazine as exemplary of this new generation of student leaders. They ran a picture of her in pedal pushers and her Coke-bottle glasses. That article made her well known in the student movement in the U.S.

She monitored the Black Panther trial in New Haven. She monitored the trial to see if there were any abuses of the rights of the Panthers on trial, and helped schedule the monitors. Her reports were turned over to the ACLU.

1971 Senator Walter Mondale's subcommittee on migrant workers, researching migrant problems in housing, sanitation, health and education.

Political Campaign Experience

1964 In high school, volunteered for Republican candidate Barry Goldwater.
1968 New Hampshire, Eugene McCarthy primary challenge to LBJ.
1972 Campaigned in the western states for 1972 Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern
1976 Jimmy Carter Presidential race, served as an Indiana campaign coordinator.

The Clinton Campaigns (Bill Clinton has stated Hillary played pivotal roles in his campaigns)

1974 Bill Clinton's Congressional race (L)
1976 Bill Clinton's Attorney General race (W)
1978 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (W)
1980 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (L)
1982 Bill Clinton's Governor's Race (W)
1992 Bill Clinton's Presidential Race (W)
1996 Bill Clinton's Presidential Race (W)
2000 Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign (W)
2006 Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign (W)

Legal Experience

1969 Truehaft, Walker and Bernstein in Oakland, one of the most liberal law firms in the country. They defended the Panthers.
1970 Yale University - city legal services, provided free legal advice for the poor.
1971 Staff attorney, Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts
1971 Carnegie Council on Children, legal consultant.
1974 Impeachment Inquiry staff in Washington, D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.
1974 University of Arkansas, Fayetteville School of Law - One of only two female faculty members.
1976 Rose Law Firm. In 1979, she became the first woman to be made a full partner.
1976 Worked pro bono on child advocacy.
1978 Jimmy Carter appoints Clinton to the board of the Legal Services Corporation.

She was twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America, in 1988 and in 1991.

First Lady of Arkansas

1979 Chaired the Rural Health Advisory Committee
1979 Introduced the Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.
1982 - 1992 Chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee

She was named Arkansas Woman of the Year in 1983 and Arkansas Mother of the Year in 1984.

Clinton had co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families in 1977.

Served on the boards of the Arkansas Children's Hospital Legal Services (1988-1992)and the Children's Defense Fund (as chair, 1986-1992)

Corporate board of directors of TCBY (1985-1992),Wal-Mart Stores (1986-1992), and Lafarge (1990-1992)

First Lady of the United States of America

"She's very smart ... people rightly give her credit for having been a participant in the Clinton administration and for doing some heavy lifting on issues." Barack Obama, speaking of Hillary Clinton's White House experience and contradicting Obama supporters - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart 8/22/07



When asked about his wife's role in his administration in August of 2000, President Bill Clinton said "She basically had an unprecedented level of activity in her present position over the last eight years.''

1993 First to bring a serious universal healthcare plan to be considered by the US Congress
1997 Helped develop the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997

The First Lady led the effor on the Foster Care Independence bill, to help older, unadopted children transition to adulthood. She also hosted numerous White House conferences that related to children's health, including early childhood development (1997) and school violence (1999). She lent her support to programs ranging from "Prescription for Reading," in which pediatricians provided free books for new mothers to read to their infants as their brains were rapidly developing, to nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses. She also supported an annual drive to encourage older women to seek a mammography to prevent breast cancer, coverage of the cost being provided by Medicare.

Hillary Clinton was the only First Lady to keep an office in the West Wing among those of the president's senior staff. While her familiarity with the intricate political issues and decisions faced by the President, she openly discussed his work with him, yet stated that ultimately she was but one of several individuals he consulted before making a decision. They were known to disagree. Regarding his 1993 passage of welfare reform, the First Lady had reservations about federally supported childcare and Medicaid. When issues that she was working on were under discussion at the morning senior staff meetings, the First Lady often attended. Aides kept her informed of all pending legislation and oftentimes sought her reaction to issues as a way of gauging the President's potential response. Weighing in on his Cabinet appointments and knowing many of the individuals he named, she had working relationships with many of them.

She persuaded Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin to convene a meeting of corporate CEOs for their advice on how companies could be persuaded to adopt better child care measures for working families.

With Attorney General Janet Reno, the First Lady helped to create the Department of Justice's Violence Against Women office. One of her closest Cabinet allies was Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Following her international trips, Hillary Clinton wrote a report of her observations for Albright. A primary effort they shared was globally advocating gender equity in economics, employment, health care and education.

During her trips to Africa (1997), Asia (1995), South America (1995, 1997) and the Central European former Soviet satellite nations (1997, 1998), Hillary Clinton emphasized "a civil society," of human rights as a road to democracy and capitalism.

The First Lady was also one of the few international figures at the time who spoke out against the treatment of Afghani women by Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.

One of the programs she helped create was Vital Voices, a U.S.-sponsored initiative to promote the participation of international women in their nation's political process. One result of the group's meetings, in Northern Ireland, was drawing together women leaders of various political factions that supported the Good Friday peace agreement that brought peace to that nation long at civil war.

Hillary Clinton was also an active supporter of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), often awarding its micro-loans to small enterprises begun by women in developing nations that aided the economic growth in their impoverished communities. Certainly one of her more important speeches as First Lady addressing the need for equal rights for women was international in scope and created controversy in the nation where it was made: the September 1995 United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, China.

Senator From New York

After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Hillary worked with her colleagues to secure the funds New York needed to recover and rebuild. She fought to provide compensation to the families of the victims, grants for hard-hit small businesses, and health care for front line workers at Ground Zero.

She is the first New Yorker ever to serve on the Senate Armed Services Committee.

She has introduced legislation to tie Congressional salary increases to an increase in the minimum wage.

She helped pass legislation that encouraged investment to create jobs in struggling communities through the Renewal Communities program.

She has championed legislation to bring broadband Internet access to rural America.

She worked to strengthen the Children's Health Insurance Program, which increased coverage for children in low income and working families.

She authored legislation that has been enacted to improve quality and lower the cost of prescription drugs and to protect our food supply from bioterrorism.

She sponsored legislation to increase America's commitment to fighting the global HIV/AIDS crisis.

She's working for expanded use of information technology in the health care system to decrease administrative costs, lower premiums, and reduce medical errors.

She's worked to ensure the safety of prescription drugs for children, with legislation now included in the Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act, and her legislation to help schools address environmental hazards. She has also proposed expanding access to child care.

She has passed legislation that will bring more qualified teachers into classrooms and more outstanding principals to lead our schools.

Hillary is one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act to increase access to family planning. Her fight with the Bush Administration ensured that Plan B, an emergency contraceptive, will be available to millions of American women and will reduce the need for abortions.

She introduced the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 to ensure better protection of votes and to ensure that every vote is counted.

Senate Armed Services Committee

Subcommittees:

* Airland
* Emerging Threats and Capabilities
* Readiness and Management Support

Senate Committee on Environment & Public Works

Subcommittees:

* Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health (Chair)
* Subcommittee Clean Air and Nuclear Safety
* Subcommittee on Transportation and Infrastructure

Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions

Subcommittees:

* Children and Families
* Employment & Workplace Safety
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Yeah, but HuffPoo
said she was bad. So all those word you wrote are just too hard to understand. We'll just go with a cool you-tube parody instead.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. I Remember When "Huffpoo" Was Cool
Right before they disagreed with you. You must remember that, Jakeypoo.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Cool is really important to you, isn't it?
More important than knowledge, right Illgrad?
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. You Mean Before She Threw Them Under The Bus
And let us go to war for no reason and took away our rights. The old Hillary, oh yeah, I used to support her. The new one, not so much.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. I know, your loved her before you hated her.
Did your love have any more basis than your current animosity which seems base on a complete lack of any knowledge about her record (not the MSM one you get from preoccupation with cool phrases used on the "hot" web sites).

Your short original short jibe was countered with a lengthy rebuttal out of which you choose to address only it issue of her dismal war voting record, a record that is nearly identical to the candidate you seem to support.

I know, I know. If they would just put all this information on a 30 second you tube video, it would be so much easier.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
55. those kind of statements are insane; makes you wonder where O people are getting their info from.
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
54. There is a world of differences between
Clinton and Obama. Other than their initial stances on the Iraq war their policies are very similar. They are both VERY different than McBush. A vote for McBush means a very good chance that we will see Roe v Wade being overturned. There are about two Supremes who will probably retire this next term. We need to think of the Supreme Court.

Either Clinton or Obama would be much preferred over McBush. People please use reason.
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. I Couldn't Possibly Agree More (n/t)
..
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
22. What do you expect when the Democrats nominate a no experience ideologue from Illinois?
Most Democrats made their bed. Now they need to sleep in it.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
48. Obama is far from an ideologue
I may be in the distinct minority here, but I am not a dogmatic idealogue, and I like the fact that Obama does not seem to be either. I think his views are basically liberal but he is not dogmatic about it. He listens to all sides and goes out of his way to seek out dissenting opinion (in stark contrast to the current president), and I think he can genuinely see both sides of a lot of issues. I'm the same way, and I think it's a good quality for a president to have. So I won't always agree with him but I like the idea of having a president who listens to different ideas and makes decisions thoughtfully.

For an example of what I am talking about, check out this article by a University of Chicago law professor who has known Obama a long time: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-oped0314obamamar14,0,7185898.story
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. is a demagogue far from an ideologue? 75K people showing up to see a half-term senator from illinois
is just not rational, and frankly i find it a little creepy and scary.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. He's a demagogue because a lot of people showed up at his rally?
And yes, ideologue and demagogue have very different meanings. Demagogue is a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power. Ideologue is someone who is dogmatic and rigid in their ideology.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. the first part was sarcasm, and maybe it's just me, but mass rallies centered around a single person
personality are not always a good thing, i don't think. and again, he's a half-term senator that nobody even heard of a year ago, and now he's getting 75K people showing up for a motivational speech? something's not right there.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. The only other...
Edited on Mon May-19-08 11:35 PM by stillcool47
political figure that I know of, that drew those kind of crowds was JFK. Weird huh? He had a Labor Day rally that drew 35,000 in 1960.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. yeah, O's JFK,MLK,FDR, and ghandi all rolled into one, and nobody ever heard of him until 6mos ago.
hey, i may be proven wrong; he may be JFK, MLK.... etc., but i'm going to remain skeptical until i see the beef.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. you mean Obama's speech...
at the convention in 2004, don't you? Oh, and by the way, I forgot John Kerry's crowds...
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. Uhm...
Ms. Votes,

At an outdoor rally in die-hard liberal Portland, during a weekend with perfect weather, a very large number of people turnout to see Obama. This scares you and gives you the creeps? Hey, I don't mean to be a wise ass here, but--with all due respect--don't you think that your characterization might be a wee bit of a stretch? I mean I don't recall any comparisons in the press coverage between the rally and Nuremberg circa '34.

Now, if Obama insists his supporters start learning how to goose step, then we should worry. ;-)

Robert

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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. my 'concern' may be premature, but as an individualist, i don't like mass, emotion-laden gatherings
of people. didn't want to mention nuremberg, but if you read mein kampf, you will see that hitler specifically mentions the utility of the mass rally for shutting off the mind and building unthinking, emotion-based support for a movement. he goes into quite a bit of detail about it, about the 'magical' effects of mass rallies and such. he says that the best effects are gained if the rally is held at dusk, though, so i guess O missed that part. :-)
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ZinZen Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
58. Obama has plenty of experience
and excellent judgement. My God, we have a certifiable moron that has been in office pissing off everyone in the world, ruining our economy, starting false wars, using torture ad nauseum.


Do you really want to compare Obama to the sociopathic moron that has been ruining our country? I know you are upset because your candidate is not winning. It is nothing personal. Sometimes it's all in the timing for the entrance of a certain kind of candidate and their message.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
27. So, what do you propose?
Edited on Mon May-19-08 06:59 AM by sendero


Do you really think Obama could work with HRC on a campaign after her little performance here?

The raving sexist assholes that think HRC should have gotten the nomination because she is female are full of shit.

Obama won for two reasons - 1) he's twice the orator HRC will ever be and 2) HRC's freaking HUBRIS left her with no plan after Super Tuesday.

I don't feel sorry for her because I don't like her positions on the issues and I don't believe in "it's my turn!" politics.

HRC had a very good shot at the nomination. Had she not ABANDONED HER BASE by soft-pedaling Iraq, she'd probably be where Obama is now. Nobody ever said triangulation was without its risks.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
28. It s a very small portion of voters who would actually not vote for Obama
Please stop giving it credence that it simply does not have. When emotions calm down and frustrations lessen the Party will come together and work for our Nominee
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Why risk it?
Edited on Mon May-19-08 07:51 AM by Jakes Progress
I believe your premise is almost correct. It is a very small portion of faithful Democrats who would not actually vote for Obama. However, there is a very large portion of voters who might actually not vote for Obama after the coming media assault. Many of the are the moderate swing voters who may support Barack now will be just as easily herded back into the GOP ranks by the scary dogs of the neocon controlled media as they were swayed by Obama's beautiful speeches.

So what is the payoff in insulting voters who disagree with you about how to get to the same place? We thought we had several elections in the bag over the last three decades. Just to spite Hillary voters, you are willing to risk putting McCain in the White House?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Not sure you understood my post
Simply put:

Very few Hillary voters will end up not voting for Obama.

The continuous posts about " will you vote for Obama" or" omg some fringe website says it won't vote for Obama" etc etc etc does nothing except create some faux outrage that is being used to create some sort of big issue where there really is not one. That fake issue is then being used on this side to continually bash Hillary voters.

I myself will no longer answer the question " Will you vote for Obama if he is the nominee". On a bad day I might answer it with "please go fuck yourself".



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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Sorry to have misunderstood.
I've been dealing with some of those posts you speak of and I'm afraid I took your message for one of the "We don't need no stinkin' Hillary" posts. I heartily apologize. I daily have to restrain myself from the same response you mention. I do wonder how many of them would respond well to the question if it were reversed.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
36. You've got your head screwed on right.
Now prepare to get swarmed.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
38. To me it's very simple,
I don't care if Obama has a "D" after his name, I don't think that he's ready to be president at this point in time. I would only vote for him if Hillary was also on the ticket, but in their arrogance, his camp and the party leaders don't think that they need her. Oh yeah, they need her and her husband to work their asses off for the nominee, but don't respect her and her supporters enough to offer her the #2 spot even though she has won 49% of the vote.

Whatever.......
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. What if she doesn't want the VP slot?
What if he offers it and she does not take it, or she makes it clear that she doesn't want it before he can offer it? Then will you consider voting for him?
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
59. Hillary Would not be a Good Choice for VP
Beacool,

I don't think Hillary would be a good choice for Obama's running mate, and, if she somehow does win the nomination, I don't think Obama would be a good choice for Hillary. Either would be far more effective to the party should they choose to return to the Senate than in the Veep role. The so-called "dream ticket" would, I think simply present the sum of both candidates political liabilities as a big fat target for the Republican smear machine. I am an Obama supporter, but I certainly have considerable respect for Senator Clinton. But please understand: if Obama does not choose her as his running mate I fully believe that this would have everything to do with political exigencies and nothing whatsoever to do with any disrespect for either Clinton or her supporters. Again, should Clinton beat what seem to be nearly insurmountable odds and take the nomination, I would think it very ill-advised indeed for her to pick Obama as her running mate as well.

Cheers,

Robert
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SeaLyons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #38
75. Agreed....
:thumbsup:

Whatever!!
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
39. If "we" includes the Clintoin campaign, I think the answer is "how else can we run in 2012?"
Edited on Mon May-19-08 10:14 AM by Stop Cornyn
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Robert Murphy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #39
71. Er....
Now 'Cornyn, that isn't fair. What we have seen is that Hillary Clinton is not going to concede as long she has some chance at winning the nomination, however slim. What we have yet to see are any signs that she would willingly adopt the mega-Machiavellian strategy of consciously jeopardizing Obama's general election campaign in order to position herself for another run in 2012. Yes, Hillary is ambitious--we can safely say that is one characteristic shared by any and all who have ever ran or ever will run for the presidency. Yet the idea that she is some sort of amoral, ruthless sociopath who will stop at nothing to reach the Whitehouse is absurd. Her enemies have been trying to paint her as such for years, and not once have they ever presented any even remotely credible evidence that supports of their characterization.

Robert
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. Anyone who is advocating voting for John McCain should be reported
I believe that is a violation of the forum rules.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
46. YES!
Wait.

NO!

I was never good at these speaker-asks-question-crowd-chants-something-back activities. I apologize.
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