The New Math...Hillary and her donors claim lead in popular vote.

[madfloridian]

Amazingly, in keeping with the clueless nature of the corporate media...there is not a word about delegate count being the criteria.

I wonder how many will take her claim seriously, not realizing that the Democratic party chooses their nominee based on delegate count. The article uses the word "pugnacious", but I have some more choice words.

She includes the unsanctioned primaries in Michigan and Florida, but the NYT calls her out on that count.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is entering the Kentucky and Oregon primaries on Tuesday with one of the most pugnacious political messages of her campaign: That she is ahead in the national popular vote when all votes are counted, including from the unsanctioned primaries in Michigan and Florida, and that party leaders who have a vote as super-delegates should reflect this level of appeal.

This argument is of a piece with Mrs. Clinton’s increasingly populist image, as a fighter on behalf of average people, but it is also a debatable claim: Most tallies of the national popular vote put Mr. Obama in the lead, especially when Michigan and Florida are not counted.

...."If all states with popular vote totals are counted — which would exclude four caucus states that have not released numbers — Mrs. Clinton would lead Mr. Obama by more than 26,000 votes out of more than 33 million cast. By other calculations, Mr. Obama is ahead in the popular vote.

As Time Runs Short, Clinton Claims Lead in Popular Vote

I thought Bob Zimmerman's "new math" interpretation about FL and MI was totally completely utterly amazing. But what else is new...this whole campaign of hers has been that way. Breaking new ground, making new rules, ignoring the fact that there is a party organization.

Robert Zimmerman, a New York media consultant who is a major fund-raiser for Mrs. Clinton, said the popular-vote argument was a good political framework for her candidacy because it emphasizes her electability in the fall. He also said it would be fair to count Michigan and Florida when Democrats are also counting the votes from state caucuses, which require people to participate at a certain time of the day, and therefore tend to leave shift workers and laborers at a disadvantage.

“The controversies concerning the inequities of the caucus system, the Michigan and Florida primaries and the focus on electability by both campaigns makes the issue of the popular vote critically important to superdelegates,” Mr. Zimmerman said. “It should be expected that any potential nominee wins the popular vote on the way to the nomination”

Because caucus votes count for Obama...they should be allowed to count the popular vote for their side????

Eeeeeek!

I felt a good deal of satisfaction that Terry McAuliffe was shouted down in Colorado at a convention of 10,000 people when he tried the "new math".

McAuliffe claims popular vote lead for Hillary...shouted down.

The "I am winning the popular vote" thingy actually works. I have had words here locally trying to convince them that is not how it is done. It was a really brilliant ploy by her campaign, and it works very well on uninformed voters.

Do you think the media even knows how the party chooses its nominee?

[populistdriven]

1. isnt this precisely what they got booed for in colorado?

[madfloridian]

3. Exactly

It doesn't bother them they are booed.

[AtomicKitten]

2. Oh dear. Looks like Wrong Way Hillary goofed again. The nod is decided on delegate count.

[ORDem]

41. She's looking more like the Black Knight in Monty Python's The Holy Grail every day.

"It's just a flesh wound"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

:dem:

[mcctatas]

4. What a dumb ass claim...

if our candidate were to be selected based on pop. vote, wouldn't we have to have a national primary and do away with caucuses all together? And doesn't that infringe on states rights? And can I have some of whatever Hillary and her crew are smoking???

[Dr.Phool]

32. You don't want what they're smoking.

It makes you act delusional and stoopid.

[Youphemism]

5. Non-Rovian Math

Hillary narrowly gets one row in a spreadsheet that should be titled, "Every Possible Wrong Way to Count the Popular Vote Except One."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[madfloridian]

9. I have posted that link for people, they still stay in denial.

Because their mindset is so strong now, it can not be changed. The Clinton campaign has tried to build anger in her supporters. That is the sad part.

The audio of her conference call.

http://www.taylormarsh.com/audio.php?audio=http://www.taylormarsh.com/podcast/mp3/stream.2008-05-16.134204.mp3

[Youphemism]

6. Removed -- Duplicate

[Arugula Latte]

7. I had realized they were slimey, but I never dreamed they'd sink this low.

I continue to be amazed at how far they push the boundaries of decency.

[and-justice-for-all]

8. Desperate and delusional...nt

[LaStrega]

10. ...

*real* math

:kick: rec

[madfloridian]

11. Yep, that is the real math.

They are right up to the minute on all things pertaining to the convention.

:hi:

[LaStrega]

13. True that!

:hi: right back atcha :) and a :toast: to boot :bounce: :woohoo:

[2rth2pwr]

12. The popular vote is important also, have you forgotten Al Gore winning the popular

vote in 2000? There was major debate about getting rid of the electoral college.

If our party nominee can't win the popular vote in the primaries, what the hell kind of candidate is that?

[briv1016]

14. But he did

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[2rth2pwr]

23. First the pimaries are far from over. And B, from your link-

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)** Obama-16,684,752 47.6% Clinton-16,711,719 47.7%

[Mass]

34. With Michigan but neither IA, WA, NV, and ME. About as arbitrary as it gets.

Adding all the states including MI, Obama wins.

[jefferson_dem]

44. Hillary's wants us to count contests that don't...and discount contests that do.

Does she really think folks are that dumb? Oh, I see at least one DUer is...above.

[briv1016]

38. What about the other 5 lines?

[mcctatas]

15. Al Gore won the popular vote in the general election...

there is no sure way to count popular vote in primaries because of caucus states, but even so, Hillary's claim is dubious at best:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++If all states with popular vote totals are counted — which would exclude four caucus states that have not released numbers — Mrs. Clinton would lead Mr. Obama by more than 26,000 votes out of more than 33 million cast. By other calculations, Mr. Obama is ahead in the popular vote. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/us/politics/19cnd-clinton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Geez, the google is your friend!

[2rth2pwr]

21. That was my point, Gore won the popular vote and it was part of the reason

that many people wanted changes in the electoral college. Reading comprehension is your friend.

[mcctatas]

22. I'm typing slowly so maybe you will catch on...

The primary has nothing to do with the popular vote OR the electoral college....
:banhead:

[2rth2pwr]

24. We know what the rules are, this is an argument for the remaining Superdelegates to consider

You do remember them, right?

[mcctatas]

49. It's been considered...

and apparently rejected (list for the past week, more at link) http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/superdelegate-endorsement-notes.html

You can see all of the superdelegates that have endorsed a candidate here

All remaining uncommitted superdelegates can be viewed here.

Dates shown are when we added the endorsment which doesn't necessarily mean the endorsement was made on that day.

5-20-08 - Added Rep. Madeleine Bordallo (GU) for Obama

5-19-08 - Added DNC Dwight Pelz (WA) for Obama
- Added Sen. Robert Byrd (WV) for Obama
- Added DNC Larry Gates (KS) for Obama
- Added DNC Blake Johnson (AK) and DNC Cindy Spanyers (AK) for Obama

5-18-08 - Added California add-ons Carolyn Doggett (CA)#, Dario Frommer (CA)# and Dora Rubio (CA)# for Clinton
- Added California add-ons William Quay Hays (CA)# and Lou Paulson (CA)# for Obama

5-17-08 - Added DNC Greg Pecoraro (MD) , new Kansas add-on Mark Parkinson (KS)# for Obama
- Colorado add-on Federico Pena (CO)# added for Obama

5-16-08 - Added Rep. Pete Stark (CA) for Obama
- Added DNC Keith Umemoto (CA) for Clinton. He endorsed "months ago" but just made it public.
- Added Rep. Brad Ellsworth (IN) for Clinton.
- Added DNC Eric Coleman (MI)and DNC Virgie Rollins (MI) for Obama.

5-15-08 - Added Rep. Jim McDermott (WA) for Obama
-Added Rep. Howard Berman (CA) for Obama
-Added Rep. Henry Waxman (CA) for Obama
- Added DNC Larry Cohen (DC) for Obama

5-14-08 - Added DNC Christine Marques (DA)* for Obama
- Added Rep. Peter Visclosky (IN) for Obama
- Added TN Add-on Vicky Harwell (TN)# for Clinton
- Added DNC Mike Morgan (OK) for Obama
- Added DNC Lena Taylor (WI) for Obama
- Added DNC Robert Ficano (MI) for Obama

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Right, except the difference is, Al Gore actually DID WIN "The Popular Vote".

Here, the Hillary Campaign is just making shit up.

Oh, and Terry "the rules are the rules" McAuliffe wants to count FL and MI? That's fucking rich.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/25/165935/668

"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state."

[ima_sinnic]

30. oh DUH, comparing the general election to primaries

--but Hillary's "base" is the low-information voter who doesn't know the difference between DELEGATES and "popular vote" -- and what about my state, Maine, and three others, where you don't even know what the so-called popular vote even was?

but live in your little delusional world, if you choose, and try to grasp the fact that, even with your made-up "popular vote" BS, not one superdelegate has switched over to Chairman Hillary and, in fact, they are running screaming from her even when they are tempted with bribes by Senator Punjab's billionaire buddies.

[MaineDem]

35. This is getting tiresome. There IS NO popular vote count.

Doesn't exist. Can't be counted. Is a non-entity.

But I think you know that by now.

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. It is down right unethical of her to make that kind of claim,

Many naive people may not know the facts, but she certainly does,

Either she is down right irrational or she is intentionally trying to sabotage the Democratic Party by attempting to de-legitimize the inevitable nominee.

Her behavior is shameless!

[madfloridian]

17. I now believe your use of the word "sabotage" might be suitable.

And we are all having to pretend not to notice. :eyes:

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. well frankly, I have tried to be understanding and empathetic

Sen. Obama was not my first choice either

I realize that its an extremely emotionally painful thing for Sen Clinton, her family and many of her supporters.

But they are simply going waaaaaaaay toooooooo far.

It's destructive.

Wouldn't it be really sad if the largest contribution of the Clinton legacy was wrecking the Democratic Party and causing the election of John McCain?

[georgecolombo]

37. I'm With You

Isn't it clear now that Hillary Clinton cares nothing about the fortunes of the Democratic Party and, frankly, cares little about the fate of the country. She is selfish, self-absorbed, and toxic.

[MaineDem]

39. I share all your views expressed in that post.

Obama was not my first choice either. In fact, I wavered a bit between Clinton and Obama.

[DeschutesRiver]

36. Agree

She may not be the brightest bulb on the tree, but yes, smart enough to know she is using deceit and sowing confusion to gain her goals. It is unethical behavior, to say the least, with regards to what she is telling voters. She tells more lies and exaggerations than the current administration - who needs more of that in office?

My only consolation is that this is one of the few times that unethical behavior will not be rewarded. In fact, I'd bet Ms. Hillary will never be taken seriously as a candidate again - time will reveal what a liability she turned herself into.

[madfloridian]

50. Sad to see this

Two people I once respected.

[ROh70]

18. Not winning

The following point needs to be made everytime someone raises the popular vote nonsense:

HRC leads in the popular vote only if you don't count and disenfranchise voters from Washington, Nevada, Iowa, and Maine. If you include estimates from those four states, Obama wins the popular vote.

Now, why people are pointing out that HRC's argument for counting Michigan and Florida doesn't seem to apply when it comes to the four states mentioned above. Why not?

To repeat - HRC's popular vote argument is not based on counting the vote in all 50 states, but based on counting the vote in only 46 states.

[caligirl]

20. If Hillary insists on pushing this to the convention I bet her political

career is over.

[Honeycombe8]

25. FL and MI don't even count. They didn't campaign there. Disadvantage to unknown candidates,

obviously.

Plus not all caucus states report "popular vote" numbers.

[RiverStone]

27. Hillary uses Rove for her new math

Which makes her math entirely and completely bullshit.

[phrigndumass]

28. Robert Zimmerman ... but the Texas caucus was held in the EVENING

Argument: Fail.

I guess shift workers and laborers all work evenings in Texas. What a coincidence.

Regarding popular vote, no matter how you count them, the Democratic nominee will need to turn 17 million primary votes into 60 million general election votes. Hillary Clinton won't be able to do that with her consistently high negatives.

K/R madfloridian!

[Raine]

29. Desperate & pathetic

x(

[georgecolombo]

31. Obama Says Be Nice To Hillary Supporters (But It's Damn Difficult)

I caught Geraldine Ferraro on The Today Show this morning and could feel my blood pressure rising with almost every word that came out of her mouth. The arguments coming from the Clinton camp are alternatively ridiculous and reprehensible. Ferraro is like a petulant child. She rattles off a litany of imaginary slights to Hillary (and, by extension in her mind, to all women) and is prepared to damage the party -- and the country -- on that basis. And as this kind of rhetoric permeates the discussion, Hillary tacitly encourages it.

I wish I could adopt an attitude as magnanimous as Obama's... but I can't. Hillary Clinton and surrogates like Ferraro are reckless, self-absorbed, and are apparently eager to inflict four more years of Republican rule on the country because their candidate ran a poor campaign. They are despicable.

[GoesTo11]

33. It would be a slap in the face for her to declare victory tonight

[fiorello]

40. The trick is: their count gives Obama ZERO votes from Michigan

This is why the Clinton vote count is dishonest. Quibbling over caucuses is small potatoes.

Clinton got 300,000 votes in Michigan.

Obama got zero. He wasn't on the ballot.

Before the vote, Obama supporters in Michigan asked people to vote "uncommitted".

"Uncommitted" got 200,000 votes.

Add this to the Obama total, and he is back in the lead in popular votes.

More history: just before the Michigan vote, Gov. Granholm (a Hillary supporter) denounced the call to vote "uncommitted" for Obama as "making a travesty of the voting process". Once the vote was over, she changed her mind and said that Hillary had won fair and square. Oops.

So 40% of the state voted to say that the vote was "a travesty".

[Occam Bandage]

46. The other trick is: It doesn't count Iowa, Nevada, Maine, or Washington.

[jefferson_dem]

42. I'm just gonna have to start ignoring Hillary's "new math / new benchmarks" bullshit.

It's so irrational ... it's making me crazy.

[high density]

43. Spouting the popular vote does nothing but divide the party

It is not a valid metric as long as we have caucus states involved in electing the candidates.

[madfloridian]

45. More about Zimmerman...won't let up on FL and MI issues. Spins terribly on that issue

From April:

Clinton's top fundraisers ripping into Howard Dean again today. Whiny attitudes.

Their attitudes make me think this will just go on and on and on.

A second prominent Democratic fundraiser, Robert Zimmerman, a Democratic National Committeeman and key Hillary fundraiser, sounded a similar note in an interview with me today.

"Howard Dean is more committed to pressuring the super delegates to make up their minds before the voting is done than he is to ensuring that Michigan and Florida's votes are counted," Zimmerman charged.

This is tiresome.

[DefenseLawyer]

47. The meaningless, non-existent "popular vote"

Something they just made up. Hillary's campaign has electrolytes. It's what Democrats crave.

[madfloridian]

48. OMG...Bill Clinton is just pathetic now. This is embarrassing.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/05/20/politics/fromtheroad/entry4110077.shtml

"But the only new thing the Clintons had to say on primary eve came from her husband, who accused the press of not caring about the needs of voters and favoring other candidates over his wife.

Bill Clinton echoed statements Hillary herself made in the past few days, verifying that attacking the media has now become a Clinton campaign talking point.

“Every time you turn on the television and you listen one of those people dissing her, they all have a college degree, they’ve all got a new job, they’ve all got healthcare, and they're not going broke putting filling up their gas tank," said Bill Clinton."

" Around 1,300 supporters – mostly women – came out to see Hillary Clinton speak last night in Lexington on the eve of the Kentucky primary when her husband came out to give her introduction, which he called "the easy job."

"Just remember, all these people who are telling you it's over..." instructed the former president as several women began to scream "No!" in protest.

"First of all, by their own admission, this has been the most slanted press coverage in American history. Secondly, they declared her dead more times than a cat’s got lives."

[georgecolombo]

51. The Clintons Have Become Virtually Indistinguishable From Republicans

Bill appears on the Rush Limbaugh Show, Hillary revels in an endorsement from Richard Mellon Scaithe. They're both complaining about the mainstream media. And, most recently, she is citing arguments developed by Karl Rove as justification for continuing her campaign.

All of these points are factual and indisputable. And, when you think about it, they really don't require comment. They simply speak for themselves.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Fuck you very much Bill.

A lot of us with college degrees do not have a job, healthcare, or a car. :eyes:

[defendandprotect]

53. ...by keeping her name on ballots she wasn't supposed to be on and where her

fellow Democrats were not competing with her ---

[defendandprotect]

54. And, DU/Hillary supporters certainly know that . . . right????

[Robyn66]

55. Hillary DOES have the popular vote

If you allow Florida-who broke the rules and where none of the other candidates campaigned.

If you allow Michigan (who broke the rules) and where Hillary was the ONLY ONE ON THE BALLOT (I don't know how even THEY can justify that one!)

... and if you take away Obama's votes! Because its ok to disenfranchise the caucus states... unless Hillary needs them.

AND regardless of popular vote and delegate count BECAUSE even though Obama is ahead in the delegate count and the popular vote that lives here in the real world, because there is no one with the exact number to win the nomination Hillary should be given the nomination anyway.

I don't know how Hillary's people can go on TV and talk about this stuff with a straight face. :banghead: