mac2
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Tue May-20-08 09:48 AM
Original message |
It's obvious neither Dem candidate is a sure win in November. |
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http://www.fulcrumgallery.com/ProductList.aspx?cat=categories_subjnew_scenic_waterfalls&source=GoogleAdWords&ad=waterfallsprints&gclid=COmooYHW348CFRqwOAodvklikgShould we go back and do it over with Edwards as the candidate for President? Where are the focus groups to decide the best candidate against McCain? Seems the party never worries about winning but who is the "first this or that" President or VP. Do they want to lose again?
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MNDemNY
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Tue May-20-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message |
1. Seems we will be riding the "High Horse" to defeat. |
papau
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Tue May-20-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
18. Proud that Hill is not VP and still 80% of her votes go to Obama the loss will be a Starbucks moment |
Romulox
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Tue May-20-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message |
2. It's similar to 2004, when the party bosses decided *any* Democrat would beat W easily... |
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The same arrogance is currently in play, imo.
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MNDemNY
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Tue May-20-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
3. "any" Democrat would win, Obama or Clinton, not so much. |
NJObamaWoman
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Tue May-20-08 09:54 AM
Response to Original message |
4. Hell no because I don't like Edwards. |
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This is coming from a BO supporter too. I never cared for Edwards before and even now after his endorsement of BO.
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MNDemNY
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Tue May-20-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
flpoljunkie
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Tue May-20-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
15. But picking VP is a "business decision." if Obama thinks Edwards is the best choice, so be it. |
papau
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Tue May-20-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
19. Hillary Hate drives money - and that is the business that Obama is in |
muryan
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Tue May-20-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
25. None of my donations were against Hillary |
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they were FOR Obama. 75,000 people didn't show up in Oregon to hear him trash Hillary, they came to hear him speak about his vision for the future.
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flpoljunkie
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Tue May-20-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
37. Got any proof for that baseless accusation? |
Occam Bandage
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Tue May-20-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #19 |
40. That's ridiculous. Most Dems like Hillary. |
AllentownJake
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Tue May-20-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message |
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but taking the nomination away from the first black man or first woman to have a legit shot and handing it to a white southern male who dropped out in January absent any scandal is the best way to ensure defeat. Offend both of the parties biggest supporters women and african americans at the same time.
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Occam Bandage
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Tue May-20-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message |
7. No. Edwards is one of our weakest GE candidates. The only reason |
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he did marginally better in the polls against McCain (the 1-year-out polls, mind you) is that he had name recognition, and that nobody had bothered attacking him in three years.
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onehandle
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Tue May-20-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
22. December and January were 1 year ago? |
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Some of you can try to rewrite history all you like but the fact is that national and key state polls showed Edwards strongest up until the day he dropped out.
And he was #1 at DU even after Super Tuesday.
Does the truth hurt that much. Hmm?
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Occam Bandage
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Tue May-20-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
28. December is 11 months out from November. January is 10. And again, the only reason Edwards was |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 11:31 AM by Occam Bandage
doing well was that he had name recognition and that nobody had said a bad word about him in three years, while Clinton and Obama were duking it out. However, he had all the disadvantages of Clinton and Obama rolled into one, and none of the advantages. He would have been a puffball in the GE.
I don't see what DU has to do with that. Edwards was DU's first choice here. That doesn't really mean much.
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onehandle
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Tue May-20-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
36. Leading in polls is a disadvantage. |
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Gotcha.
Then Hillary and Obama are doooooooomed!
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Occam Bandage
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Tue May-20-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #36 |
38. Not at all what I said. Polls months away from an election are meaningless. |
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Right now, Johnny Mac is running competitively with Obama and Hillary. However, nobody's laid a finger on him in months, while Obama and Hillary are beating the snot out of each other. He'll deflate once he starts getting attacked.
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onehandle
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Tue May-20-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #38 |
42. So that makes Obama and Hillary's polls more relevant months out than Edwards' polls. |
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That makes your premise an opinion and nothing more.
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Occam Bandage
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Tue May-20-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
45. Certainly not. None are relevant except as a curiosity. |
Straight Shooter
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Tue May-20-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message |
8. "Seems the party never worries about winning but who is the "first this or that" President or VP" |
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That really doesn't make any sense. This is the first election we've had a "first this or that" candidate at this stage of the election campaign. The rest of our Dem candidates have been white males. Unless you count JFK, the "first Catholic."
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sfaprog
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Tue May-20-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
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First wheelchair-using/handicapped: FDR
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MonkeyFunk
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Tue May-20-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
14. The public didn't know |
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that FDR used a wheelchair, though.
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sfaprog
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Tue May-20-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #14 |
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I've been meaning to read more on FDR. I wonder if he had maybe gone public in 1940 if he would have been able to win another term.
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msallied
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Tue May-20-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
30. Um... he was elected 4 times as President. |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 11:31 AM by msallied
And died in 1945, just into his 4th term.
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Occam Bandage
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Tue May-20-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
41. Er, he did win another term. He won four terms. And died in office. |
sfaprog
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Tue May-20-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
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There were other Democratic contenders, and some didn't want a four-term presidency. I was saying, had he gone public with his physical problems, if his opponents would have successfully trumped up his "weakness".
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Straight Shooter
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Tue May-20-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
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He hid his disability well. He knew it would alter people's perception of him.
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msallied
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Tue May-20-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
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the press was a different animal back then. They didn't sensationalize on such things. FDR also had several mistresses. The paradigm with the media changed after the Nixon era, I think.
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Straight Shooter
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Tue May-20-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #32 |
43. Absolutely. FDR and the press had an "understanding" concerning his disability. |
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I think the most drastic change came about with Gary Hart and his "Monkey Business." When the press realized how salacious tidbits on a politician sells with the public, they threw all their journalistic scruples out the window.
I suspect that JFK got a lot more than a blowjob in the Oval Office. Imagine the brouhaha today if we had a president connected sexually/romantically to a movie star like Marilyn Monroe.
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msallied
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Tue May-20-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
44. I have often thought of that myself. |
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And you're right about Gary Hart. Very good point. At some point the media realized that sex sells and they haven't been able to let go of that. Probably because in a way, they are right. Ugh.
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Orangepeel
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Tue May-20-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message |
9. No candidate is a sure win. But the one who ran the best primary campaign is the best bet. |
msallied
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Tue May-20-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
34. I agree! I've never seen so many people |
kentuck
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Tue May-20-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message |
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We could have nominated Evan Bayh. What's important is that Democrats unite behind the candidate. It is the division that loses elections for us. As well as our refusal to speak up during character attacks by the Republicans.
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endarkenment
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Tue May-20-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message |
12. It is obvious one candidate cannot win in November. |
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As Senator Clinton will not get the nomination, she cannot win in November. Consequently, it really would be in the best interests of everyone here on DU who desires a win for the Democratic candidate in November and a defeat of the Republican candidate in November to get to work right now to ensure that Obama beats McCain.
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MonkeyFunk
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Tue May-20-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message |
13. I agree it wont' be a cakewalk |
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but what makes Edwards a better candidate than either of the two very strong candidates we have now?
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featherman
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Tue May-20-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message |
20. Silly stuff. John Bush McCain can't win the GE this year. |
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He's a terrible candidate and a worse campaigner and his party is badly damaged and in rapid decline. The sky is not falling. Get a grip.
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democrat_patriot
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Tue May-20-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
21. McSame has purged 5 lobbyists from his campaign. |
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Some with ties to Ferdinand Marcos for God sakes. And I have heard nothing on this except for KO in the MSM.
McSame has an excellent chance in November.
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featherman
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Tue May-20-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
29. Insider stuff - low info swing voter doesn't care, doesn't watch cable news |
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Over 100 million vote and we on DU obsess about who said what on some cable news show watched by less than 1/2 million already high information political junkies. That stuff doesn't make or break elections. Just saying.
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thewiseguy
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Tue May-20-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message |
23. Yes with the amnesty agenda it sure will be hard to win the election! |
msallied
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Tue May-20-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message |
24. What a bunch of defeatist bullcrap. |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 11:13 AM by msallied
Perhaps it's attitudes like yours, lack of confidence in our candidates, that is the cause of our defeats.
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opihimoimoi
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Tue May-20-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message |
26. Obama will kick McCramps Ass in Nov |
Ichingcarpenter
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Tue May-20-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
39. YOU GOT TO SEE THIS TOON... McCain and Obama DEBATE.!!!! |
opihimoimoi
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Tue May-20-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
48. Poor man, he jus don know when to STFU |
CK_John
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Tue May-20-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message |
27. Don't worry McCain will be pulled to bring in the Cheney pick. n/t |
Clear Blue Sky
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Tue May-20-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message |
31. Nobody is a sure winner this early. |
Exultant Democracy
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Tue May-20-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message |
33. Have you been paying any attention to the recent congressional special elections. The reps are sunk. |
spinbaby
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Tue May-20-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #33 |
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We could run a turnip against McCain and it would win by a landslide.
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Buck Rabbit
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Tue May-20-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message |
47. Edwards? If your leftist candacy gets crushed in Dem primaries |
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what chance would it have in the GE.
I thought his platform was terrific. But if you're too far left for Democrats you have no chance in the General.
He also had the huge disadvantage of running on a platform that was 180 degrees from his established though short Senate record.
Many people like me, who voted for Kucinich in the 2004 primaries, were very skeptical of how a centrist New Dem hawk, flips a switch and becomes an anti-war leftist populist at almost the same time Clinton pre-announces and the DLC power structure immediately jumps on board with her. Coincidence?
But I do agree that Obama will have a tough road. Hillary would have an impossible one as a GE campaign would be all about Bill fatigue, and the Clenis, and the pardons, and his business dealings post presidency. Edwards however is far from the answer.
If the convention is hopelessly deadlocked and you want a great progressive with less baggage draft Feingold. If you want a sure thing go with Gore. If though, Obama has won on pledged delegates and popular vote of DNC sanctioned primaries a coup based on the "electabality" will be a sure November defeat no matter who you pick.
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LWolf
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Tue May-20-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
50. I'll take Feingold or Gore. |
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I understand your point about "winning" the pledged delegates and popular vote, but I don't think this was a clean primary from the opening bell.
When the primaries are scheduled to weight the results from some states more than others, it's not clean. There were exactly 2 caucuses and 2 primaries, not counting Michigan and Florida, before everyone else dropped out. Those 4 states got to narrow the field for the rest of us. I, for one, would never have voted for Obama or HRC, given any other choice.
When "debates" are run by corporate media who favor some candidates over others before a vote is ever cast, it's not clean. Chris Dodd's "talk clock" documented this dirty practice after every debate.
When it's not clean, there is no true mandate from the voters.
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Swamp Rat
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Tue May-20-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
LWolf
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Tue May-20-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #51 |
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I was offering up good compromise candidates, not the ideal. ;)
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Swamp Rat
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Tue May-20-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #52 |
Buck Rabbit
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Tue May-20-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
54. Hello, my fellow Cascadian Comrade,. |
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The primary system is hardly a pure demonstration of democracy, and this is the first time in my long life I can remember our own state primary having any notice on a National level.
But while acknowledging the flaws of the current system, indulge me while I point out some positive observations I have made while watching this play out.
The drawn out primary season can allow a dynamic force to come out of no where and build a populous groundswell to overtake a front runner whose main attribute may be no more than name recognition. Dean in 2004 and Obama this time forced the media to pay attention to them by creating a grassroots groundswell of support. When the media turned on them, Obama had the ability to fend off their change of fickled favor, Dean did not.
Obama imposed himself on the media. If you're a Republican you own the media, a populist must have the personal dynamics to compel them to cover you. Chris Dodd and our beloved Dennis K. lack this ability.
Presidential races these days are a media war and I think that we are ending up with the best media warrior the democrats had running.
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suston96
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Tue May-20-08 07:50 PM
Response to Original message |
49. Obvious........? Maybe not....... |
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