"Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?" (King Henry II, 1170)

[TahitiNut]

Just a casual remark. :shrug:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Becket#Assassination

[havocmom]

1. Odd, that was the first thing I thought of when I read about the unstable woman's remark

Exactly the first thing that came to mind.

[The Magistrate]

2. Are You Seriously Suggesting, My Friend, That This Was An Open Solicitation To Assassination?

[dailykoff]

4. Doesn't need to be. Just needs to raise the question

so if it happened, it would seem like another "lone nut," not that lone nuts have ever actually existed.

[The Magistrate]

12. So You, Sir, Take It As A Signal For a Pre-Existing Plot To Move Into Action?

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[dailykoff]

17. I take it as a signal to delegates and backers that history will repeat itself.

The question is, what would make her certain enough that it will to sink $31 million of debt into a failed campaign?

[The Magistrate]

19. In Other Words, Sir, The Answer Is Yes, You Think It A Signal To An Existing Assassination Plot

People sink money into all sorts of ventures that fail. A person worth one hundred ten millions who loses thirty millions has eighty millions left: either figure is more than can be comfortably spent on goods and services in several lifetimes, so in effect such a person would have lost nothing noticeable at all.

[dailykoff]

25. Not "A Signal For a Pre-Existing Plot To Move Into Action," no.

It's a signal that such an event is highly likely.

[The Magistrate]

30. How Could It Be That, Sir, Without Foreknowledge Of A Prepared Means Ready To The Task?

Or, in other words, a pre-existing plot this was a signal to....

[dailykoff]

34. She could have foreknowledge with being the instigator.

Kind of like Nixon and LBJ benefited from assassinations without necessarily instigating them.

[AuntPatsy]

51. This will be good......

[VolcanoJen]

Sir....

... it was an awful and horrible thing to say. And it doesn't make sense politically, as there's nothing that could possibly be gained from such an ill use of words.

And then to learn they've been invoked before, yet she used "Teddy's on my mind" as an excuse.

With all due respect, my friend, I do believe that "something is going to happen to Obama" has become the last refuge of this candidate. And it saddens and sickens me. You may not have read it the same way, but there's something eerily tactical about it, within context, and without, given her recent controversial statements that have struck me in a similar manner.

[The Magistrate]

35. Certainly It was An Awful And Horrible Thing To Say, Ma'am

And you may be correct that in dark hours the thought something might happen to the man, and that she would benefit by that, has crossed her mind.

But this is a far cry from the sort of thing being suggested by some. Hyperbole is great fun, but people employing it should remember they are exaggerating for effect, not stating plain fact.

[VolcanoJen]

39. I understand your argument in the context of the OP

But I am beyond forgiving the Senator from New York her many gaffes. Not everything can be just lah-dee-dah'd and explained away.

There is a pattern, and she seeks refuge in it. And her supporters are more than happy to twist the reaction to this horrific political gaffe into "You can't POSSIBLY be SUGGESTING that Hillary is advocating... What!?"

I do understand that. There is hyperbole on both sides. But this, Sir, is simply a bridge too far. After these wretched eight years, and this thrilling and historic campaign, we deserve more than the cringing I feel in my soul every time the Senator opens her mouth, for fear another horrible and reckless thing will escape.

I am quite finished, and we have work to do, and a nominee, and we simply do not deserve this.

[The Magistrate]

42. Being Myself Neutral Between These Two, Ma'am

The matter may strike me as less important overall. It is certain Sen. Obama will be the nominee, and Sen. Clinton should have conceded this a couple of weeks ago at least. She has displayed, in my view, very bad judgement for some time.

[VolcanoJen]

45. It is difficult for me to understand how one could be neutral...

... at this point. I've felt this way for weeks, of course, because all I can think about is President Bomb-Bomb, Sir.

I believe the time for neutrality has passed. I think we should "surely hang together."

[The Magistrate]

49. I Will Back The Nominee Of The Party, Ma'am, And Am Certain That Will Be Sen. Obama

But both these people are good DEmocrats, decent persons, and each would make an excellent President for our country. There is little difference of substance between them on issues, though there are great differences in style. It seems to me that much of the heat in this contest stems from the fact of their being, really, so little to chose from between them. This leads to exaggeration and focus on trifles.

[AuntPatsy]

53. Have I told you lately that I love you...a voice of reason...

:bounce:

[The Magistrate]

60. Thank You, Ma'am: You Are Much Too Kind

[ozymandius]

54. There are few absolutes in this world.

And this is one of them: presidents and presidential candidates are always considered potential targets for assassination. That fact stands without statement. But to state that mortal fact is to use hyperbole as a weapon. I find it utterly disgraceful and reeking of desperation.

[mcctatas]

5. I for one don't think it was...

it was just incredibly stupid and tone deaf...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

6. I agree.

I actually am more concerned about the "apology" than the remark.

[SwampG8r]

23. what apology?

hillary has yet to actually apologize for any of her fantastic behaviour
ive seen her say she had apologized
but the apologies themselves.......
not so much

[Arrowhead2k1]

15. The same could have been said of King Henry II's remark.

Are those the kind of leaders we want? Ones that can't comprehend the implications of the words that come out of their mouths?

[TahitiNut]

43. Exactly. "Crusade" anyone???

:eyes:

[Alexander]

7. It's not clear Henry II was asking for Becket to be assassinated.

He could just have made a badly-worded statement while he was tired.

[mcctatas]

8. ...

:spray:

[The Magistrate]

9. Surely, Sir, You Know The History Of the Matter Better Than That....

[intaglio]

66. Yes I do

and in the original it was "What miserable drones and traitors have I nurtured and promoted in my household who let their lord be treated with such shameful contempt by a low-born cleric!" (said in Angevin French, of course) and was a rant aimed at his nobles. So four of them decided to show what nobles could do against uppity commoners and killed Beckett.

Please remember that Henry was trying to maintain the historic independence of the English Church from the Papacy - something that the Papacy had been trying to undermine since befor Hastings - and Beckett was for the the primacy of the papacy in these matters. His murder forced Henry (under the threat of a potential Crusade) to submit to the Pope.

[Alexander]

67. Exactly. Henry didn't benefit from Becket's murder.

[dailykoff]

11. Yes, he fucked up, what's the big deal anyway.

Hillary even apologized!

[Leopolds Ghost]

38. Wasn't he 60years old or something? People who are tired make careless comments

The French campaign was exhausting and Beckett's leftie shenanigans drove him over the edge. Good thing he apologized.

"Friends, romans, countrymen: I come not to bury Caesar but to praise him..."

[TahitiNut]

10. How much does it take to light a fuse?

Even with the best of intentions, of course. :eyes:

I've expressed my viewpoint more fully in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6100527

[The Magistrate]

14. Again, Sir: Is It Your View This Was An Open Solicitation To Assassination?

That is certainly what Henri Plantagenet's statement was, after all....

[TahitiNut]

16. I could not say that it wasn't.

Nor could you. Ain't plausible deniability great?

[The Magistrate]

18. Quite The Contrary, Sir: I Am Willing To State Definitely It Was No Such Thing

And know in stating it the statement is as factual as the statement two and two make four.

It was a damned tin-ear thing to say, but the hyperbolic insinuendoes erected on it barely qualify as decent comedy.

[dailykoff]

20. She's aid it several times, including the word "assassination,"

and on the record. It's a serious threat, not a "tin-ear thing to say."

[The Magistrate]

26. It Does Not Come Within Miles Of Any Legal Definition Of A Threat, Sir

Try contacting a police agency and see how far you get....

[dailykoff]

29. Who said it did?

It's a dog whistle, not a prosecutable crime.

[The Magistrate]

40. You, Sir, Said 'It's a serious threat' And A Serious Threat Is A Legal Matter, A Crime In Itself

Have the courage of your convictions, Sir. If you say it, stand by it; do not crawfish away. It gains nothing, and forfeits dignity.

[dailykoff]

41. Yes, it is a serious threat, no, it is not a prosecutable crime.

Not that I know of. :)

[The Magistrate]

44. Then It Is Not a Serious Threat, Sir: If It was a Serious Threat, It Would Be a Crime

[dailykoff]

50. If the sky threatens rain, please don't send a deputy.

This is not a constabulary. "Threat" has more meanings than statutory criminal definitions. In this case, Hillary's dog whistling is a serious threat to Obama's safety because it a) broadcasts the necessity of a race-related lynching and b) raises the specter of a sixties-style CIA assassination that would benefit Hillary and her big-business backers.

[The Magistrate]

56. How Does It 'Raise The Specter Of A C.I.A. Style Assassination', Sir?

You are now claiming that there is already a plot by the C.I.A. underway to murder Sen. Obama?

[dailykoff]

58. I said it raises the specter of such an operation. You said the rest.

I think what I'm saying is pretty clear but I'm happy to clarify anything that isn't.

[The Magistrate]

59. This Has Degenerated Into Low Comedy, Sir

A specter is a ghost, and if you wish to settle on there being a ghost of a threat arising from this statement, be my guest, by all means....

"I do believe in spooks! I do, I do, I do believe in spooks!"

[dailykoff]

61. This really isn't a laughing matter.

I understand your desire to sweep it under the carpet, but unfortunately the Clintons have run out of carpet, and their dirt is all to plain to see.

[The Magistrate]

62. Oh Yes, Sir, It Definitely Is A Laughing Matter, At Least As You Present It

And fun and funny as it has been, it can now longer be allowed to take up my dwindling time and energy....

"I'm going home. Someone bring me some frogs and some bourbon."

[dailykoff]

63. We disagree on that point too.

Anyway, good night. :hi:

[TahitiNut]

31. Nor would, under that definition, Henry's lamentation.

Simple. :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

46. He Spoke In The Presence Of Armed Retainers, Sir, Whose Character And Loyalties He Knew

You know the situations are not remotely comparable: I have too much respect for your mental acumen to believe otherwise of you, Sir.

[TahitiNut]

48. He was in his cups.

:shrug: He was not known for moderation in his piques of temper.

[anigbrowl]

32. That is so. But I suspect some police forces are reviewing their records this evening.

It's not as if there's a shortage of people on the lunatic fringe.

[AuntPatsy]

55. ;-)

:popcorn:

[Major Hogwash]

65. You don't know that for a fact, though. You can state your opinion of it, is all.

And to say that you know that "for a fact" is to say you know what Hillary was thinking when she said it.

[mcctatas]

21. I don't think it is that cut and dried...

His consequent remorse and allowing himself to be publicly flogged by priests while walking barefoot to the cathedral would kind of indicate he was at least torn over the subject. And the four knights who murdered Beckett (Reginald Fitzurse, Hugh de Moreville, William de Tracy, and Richard le Breton) were sent to the pope for absolution and saw their land and property seized by the crown...

Just sayin', it's murky :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

52. He Miscalculated The Consequences, Ma'am: Violent Men Often Do

Part of the art of Kingship is turning on your tools when that will best serve yourself. It does not matter how often you do it, no King ever lacks them....

[mcctatas]

27. That was a great post BTW...

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

36. Thank you.

That one took some time and careful thought. I'm gratified that it resonated with so many and it was appreciated.

[TahitiNut]

22. Let me ask you this ...

We've suffered under nearly eight years of the worst pResident in this nation's history. Do you recall when he referred to the invasion as a "Crusade"?? Do you recall the uproar?

Do you REALLY think we need someone who'd make even MORE reckless remarks?

This isn't "bitter" or "white Americans" or "first time proud of my country." This is the stuff of madness.

[The Magistrate]

57. At The Risk Of Repeating Myself, My Friend: It Was A Damn Fool Thing To Say

It was not, however, a solicitation for or threat of murder directed at a political rival.

[anigbrowl]

24. Put it this way - would you think twice before booking any Obama appearances in CA next month?

[dailykoff]

3. Thanks, very apropos.

Chilling too. But you know what? If it happens, it won't be a lone nut; she just needs somebody to make an attempt, or claim to, so the CIA can take him out and blame it on somebody.

[Raine]

13. Hillary needs to pray really really hard

that nothing bad happens to Obama.

[SwampG8r]

28. i remember that rfk was supposedly

shot by his guards not just sirhan sirhan

[iconicgnom]

33. Thanks for the reference

Wow, what a vivid description of Thomas Becket's murder! I like that the description of the murder concluded with a description of the desecration of the body. Quite... real reportage, for those of us who've squashed a few bugs.

I think the reference is apropos, too. It neither condemns, nor comes to any conclusion at all - it simply cites an historical similitude between methodologies in ancient and modern politics. It tells us why we need to watch each other's backs.

[NewHampshireDem]

37. Is this the classic Knisley gaffe?

Honestly, that's how I read it when I first saw it ... and the video did nothing to dissuade me. Her previous use of the comparison is, IMHO, very different from her latest remarks. This one, to me, very clearly said, 'Obama could be killed, so I need to stay in.' (After watching KO's special comment, I feel like he may have been taking it in the same way.)

[TahitiNut]

47. Yes... it's gotten to be a more explicit syllogism for her.

Given the extraordinary Secret Service protection afforded Obama, it's CLEAR that the "reality-based" folks regard it seriously. We can only await the next appearance and see what additional protection is provided. I, for one, expect there will be no doubt. Obama has had five visible agents around him on the rope-lines ... two preceding him, two following him, and one immediately behind him. That obviously doesn't account for the ones in the crowd and at other stations. It should be obvious, before long, that there's an impact. A serious one.

[izzie]

64. I think many times the remark is casual from but others then do it.

Children often say they hate their parents, which they do not, and often say I wish you were dead, but do not want them dead, but as we grew we stop that silly stuff and learn words mean things. It was a foolish re-mark from a women who should know better. I think what she wants is getting to her reason. She is not going to out do Bill and become President so she should just give it up. Bill is not going to come in the back door on her coat tails either. I hope the voters are done with the Clinton's and Bush's.