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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:54 PM
Original message
I started posting responses many times today- RE: Assassination comment.

I've shut down my browser and walked away each time. I'm posting this to try and bring a little sense into the issue.

Is what she said awful?

Yeap, and it's non spinnable.

Anyone who believes that some psycho out there isn't willing to take it as a green flag think Jodie Foster and Reagan. (Please forgive me for using that example, but it's the first one that comes to mind.)

Now, with that said- Do I (An Obama supporter) think that HRC did this for the following reasons (some I've read here and other forums today)

1) Get free press?
a) Do you really think she wants this KIND of free press? No.

2) Stoke the fears of a country in losing one of our brighter stars.
a) This late in the game? No, I don't think she's that stupid.

3) Make a veiled hint that she's desperately hoping something will happen to him?
a) I may not like her, and she may be a brutal opponent but I seriously doubt she wants him to be hurt physically. Politically sure, because she wants to win. But not bodily harm. That's just ugly.

4) That she's lost her mind?
a) Well, how mentally sound would anyone be when they are watching the pinnacle of their entire lives slip through their fingers? So fritzy sure, but not completely dingbats.

There are many other "Theories" floating out there in cyber space right now, and probably more to come. This is what I think happened-

I think earlier in the campaign, March I believe, HRC tested the original comment out including the reference to RFK's assassination. I believe her internal polling showed it was falling flat, and she modified it to take out that hot button word.

Knowing that HRC has a speech coach(acting coach?) she must have practiced the delivery of that comment over and over again in the mirror, in front of staffers as critics etc.

The brain is a funny thing, it works with repetition. If after she found it was falling flat, and worse had a bad reaction, she wouldn't have practiced the modified version that much because of not being able to use it often. She literally had an "OH SHIT" moment right after it came out of her mouth, you can see it in the tightening around her eyes.

She knew as soon as she said it that she screwed up, now they are in damage control mode-

She isn't going to apologize to Obama and his family, because doing so will admit that the phrase could be taken as any one of those "Theories". So don't expect it. If she wants to salvage any part of her career, it would NOT be smart to admit it could be taken as a green flag in case something DID happen to Obama (Lord please no)

In summary, Huge Gaffe? Heck yes. Possibly campaign ending? Yes again, because it's gone viral with the "Theories". Career ending? No, not if she keeps doing damage control. Right now that's pretty much all she can hope for.



PS- I don't like HRC, and I've gotten angry at her many times this season- however the sheer hatred being directed right now is sickening to me.


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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Jeralyn at TL reports
At least BTD apologized for his own initial nonsensical reaction; he also cites the Argus Leader’s Executive Editor Statement from Hillary Clinton’s webpage.

Jeralyn at TL reports:

Update: Big Tent Democrat writes in the comments on the open thread:

I think it is clear I overreacted and I think this statement from the persons in the room is definitive: The Argus Leader’s Executive Editor Randell Beck issued the following statement today:

“The context of the question and answer with Sen. Clinton was whether her continued candidacy jeopardized party unity this close to the Democratic convention. Her reference to Mr. Kennedy’s assassination appeared to focus on the timeline of his primary candidacy and not the assassination itself.”

While Keith Olbermann’s incredible stupidity makes me ashamed that I was even a part of anything that fed the craziness, I can not undo what I wrote. At the time, it was my honest reaction.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/23/20319/4465
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. RFK, Jr.:On Hillary's Remarks
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/23/213914/479

RFK, Jr. On Hillary's Remarks
By Big Tent Democrat, Section Off Topic
Posted on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:39:14 PM EST
Tags: (all tags) Share This:
Link:

“I’ve heard her make that argument before,” Mr. Kennedy said, speaking on his cell phone as he drove to the family compound in Hyannis for the holiday weekend. “It sounds like she was invoking a familiar historical circumstance in support of her argument for continuing her campaign.” . . . is support of Mrs. Clinton has not wavered.
More from RFK, Jr.:

I have heard her make this reference before, also citing her husband's 1992 race, both of which were hard fought through June. I understand how highly charged the atmosphere is, but I think it is a mistake for people to take offense."
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Now they're going after RFK Jr!
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I don't like the reaction we've seen, but I don't think Olbermann demonstrated
"incredible stupidity" -- not by a long shot. His strongest angry points were about her "extreme tin ear" in mentioning the word assassination during this election when so many people have been fearful about the possibility since Obama announced his candidacy and about her making any mention of assassination given this nation's bloody past full of political violence and the threats that have been made to her, Obama, and McCain. Beyond the fact that the "slipped" in using that term, she also really, really screwed up the "apology" -- if she had apologized for using the term and stepping on people's fears then she would've been (once again) forgiven.

I think beating up on Olbermann is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Peace.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hatred never ceases by hatred, but by love alone is healed. This is an ancient and eternal law.
In other words, I agree with you. I agree.

Peace.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Great post. but I do have one question: You say that this could be a green flag for some nut....
yet the hatred shown towards Hillary sickens you? Don't you see how those two things correlate?
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Not sure I understand the question but I'll try to answer anyway-


I went through just a few of the theories that people have had on this board and others, I'll say again --I don't like HRC-- however, these reactions to me are over the top.

Yes, some nutcase could take it as a green flag. Yes, that's one reason it was a HUGE gaffe. However again, I think accusing her of the theories that are out there is kindof like smashing an ant with a sledgehammer.

Not Needed.

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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear:
You say that some nut could take her comments as a green flag to harm Obama. A lot of people see that angle, and thus are angry at Clinton for being stupid enough to put that green flag out there. Thus the hatred.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. As far as that goes...
Yes it was a very stupid comment, one that she'll likely regret for a while to come.

I can't tell anyone else how to feel, I just know that for me personally I can't buy into it. Does that make sense?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Sure it makes sense, I just see it differently
Edited on Sat May-24-08 01:24 PM by Wolsh
If someone does take her green flag, a lot more people then Hillary are going to regret it. I'm just trying to explain to you why myself and others are showing so much "hate" towards Clinton.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Thank you-

I appreciate it, and can understand where you are coming from.


For the record, I hoping for all I'm worth that there isn't a psycho out there that can get near enough to BHO to take the green flag. It makes my gut wrench just thinking about it.

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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Welcome to the ignore lists of many Obama supporters.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. And the victim card is played once again....so once again I'll ask:
You know this isn't a game right, and that its much bigger then yourself?
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I am making fun of Obama "supporters", they are the ones that are making this
whole thing look like a silly game.

Still no apology from you for your error?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. What error?
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Where you accused me of making up the fact that the majority of the time that
assassination is brought up, it comes from Obama supporters or his campaign.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. You're a crazy person, you really are
If you comparing actual concern for Obama, to defending one's decision to stay in the race to the fact that he might be shot.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. That's not what she said and you know it. You are once again assigning the
darkest of motives based on absolutely nothing but your own worthless opinion.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. Its clear, to those of us who aren't crazy, what she said, and what she's hoping for.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. Are you saying that Skinner is crazy?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. I've replyed to that thread, if he's making excuses for the comments then he's mistaken.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Don't bother.
This person is incapable of telling the truth. Weren't you put on ignore? Then how come more replies followed?

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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
89. Clinton made a comment that could have been ignored...as it had been before.
It was the Obama supporters who made the big headlines and are now waving the green flag as if in a hurricane. If something were to ever happen...they have themselves to blame...plus KO and the whole GD media and the internet. YOU GUYS ARE WAVING THE GREEN FLAG YOURSELVES...STOP IT...
LET IT DROP...AS YOU GUYS WOULD SAY.

PS You have always been an avid Hillary hater so stop using this incident as a reason to really, really hate her.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. It's just amazing that they are organizing this bullshit "protest"- maybe if they organized in Iowa
they wouldn't have to resort to this chicanery.

There's just something so funny about hearing the Clinton people be like, "yeah, we're really organized for the protest."

How can a woman be forgiven for anything who is bringing busloads of people to politick for something morally wrong and whose "protest" makes her a complete fucking liar???

I just don't see how when in seven days this woman is planning to do something that has a sole purpose of damaging the party, I can feel anything but hatred for her.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Why are you trying to change the subject?
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Why aren't you BANNED for promoting a "protest" so cynical
that after all the crap this nomination season I am still shocked by it. It is based in utter, complete lies and is an insult to everyone with either a functioning ear or eyes and a functioning brain. It makes Hillary a complete LIAR - again. Her audacity knows no bounds, and your rear should be canned from here for promoting that garbage.

Let me guess- you'll post your stupid protest flier graphic again.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. This person said they would vote for McCain.
Remember this in the coming days. ;)

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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. That should be a banning offense. To accuse a fellow DUer of something like that
when it has never happened.

Vile, and hateful, so hateful you are willing to lie to try and disparage me.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. I thought I was on ignore?
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. I have zero people on ignore and never have. Are you drinking again?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Ah, I knew you would revert to ad hominem.
Better put me on ignore because I am not going away.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Which is it Swampy? What's up with your memory? Did I put you on ignore?
Did I say I would? When did I say I would vote for McCain? Are you high?

Why would you attack me with lies?

Check with the mods or admins, I haven't hidden a thread or put anyone on ignore, not once.

I have never said I would vote for McCain, why should you be allowed to slander fellow members like this?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. I tell you what. I will leave you alone for the time being.
And in the meantime, while you spew your anti-Obama filth and right wing propaganda, I will put you on ignore until the DU admin has made its position clear regarding the nominee.

At that time, if I see you post a single anti-Obama word. I will dog you, and McCain supporters until y'all are TSed.

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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. I'm shaking. Obama doesn't deserve to be VP in Hillary's administration.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. How about the mods just remember this NOW
Edited on Sat May-24-08 01:34 PM by jsmirman
and can this joker who is just trying to foment disruption?
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. How about you stfu, or prove I said something like that. Google is your friend.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. You should still be banned for the protest flier, but if it's not true,
I apologize for being incorrect. But SwampRat is pretty reliable, so we will see what SwampRat has to say.

I don't care if you said you would support McCain or not, although I apologize for believing it if it isn't true.

But it would just be extra fuel to a fire that is already plenty big, by virtue of you shit-stirring for a protest that is an anti-Democratic Party as anything I can imagine. If I'm McCain, I'm putting as many supporters of mine as I can on those buses. You think on that.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. This person is here to stir the pot, fan the flames.
There are a bunch of them here, but they are getting long in the tooth.



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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Second time- Prove it or STFU. Last time you shut up, why are you doing this again?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
55. I thought I was on ignore.
Shut up? No way.

Better for you to just put me on ignore like you said you would.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. Why are you asking me? Did you not read the rules when you signed up?
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. "Members are expected to support Democratic candidates for political office."
That protest is pure calumny, based in deep hypocrisy and irrespobsilbe willingness to do and say anything.

It is the exact OPPOSITE of supporting a Democratic candidate in the Presidential Election. It only seeks to further alienate voters in two extremely important states.

It has no moral grounding, because it is organized by a candidate whose own statements and actions fly completely in the face of what she is now touting.

It's only purpose is to disrupt. Therefore, support of this protest, and promotion of it, should be a bannable offense.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Thank the Lord you are not a moderator, and hopefully the judgment shown in this
post will forever disqualify you from any authority whatsoever.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. And I will make sure you NEVER do as well.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #53
68. Bullcrap. Take on the logic in my post. It's fine to support Hillary. But to support that protest
and promote is unconscionable. It is based on nothing but a desire to destroy the party's chances in November. If you could show me how the protest has a moral leg to stand on and explain to me how it is not OUTRAGEOUS for Hillary's team to be organizing a protest that directly contradicts what they said, what they agreed to, what they VOTED for- then you might have something. But you can't. She said what she said, signed what she signed, and they did what they did.

There are specific rules here. Promoting that protest violates them.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. The people in those two states deserve to be counted. If the intent of the voter can
be determined, we should give them the benefit of the doubt. Were you against this principle in 2000?
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. The difference between what "the intent of the voter being determined" meant in 2000
and the utter perversions that took place in Michigan and Florida tells you everything you need to know about the dishonesty of Hillary's position.

And no, in Florida in 2000, we didn't have any prior agreement from the Gore camp that some votes in Florida weren't supposed to count.

And no, the issue of a completely faulty ballot or a chad that won't poke through, or a mark that is clear but wasn't picked up on first counting isn't REMOTELY like an election held specifically under the circumstance of votes explicitly not counting and campaigning being disallowed or an election helding under the circumstance of only one real candidate being on the ballot.

That you would equate the two situations just shows your willingness to conflate anything in hopes that enough crap thrown up against the wall might stick.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. If you want to call the voters in those states utter perversions, that is your right.
But many of us will be in DC to fight for their voices to be heard. Yes, I know there are some in the party that want to snuff out the voters voices to punish a handful of fat cat politicians in the state legislature. But there are still people willing to lay it on the line to keep the voters dreams in MI and FL alive.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. Get real. The "elections" were the perversions. The "voters (sic) dreams" alive, please
This is about one person's dream, period.

She didn't give a shit about "the voters (sic) dreams" back when she signed the pledge, or when she said Michigan wouldn't count for anything, or when she said that the position of the other four states was unique enough that it was important to accept the consequences of the Michigan and Florida decisions.

And no amount of populist bullshit or blaming this on "the fat cat politicians versus the little people" can change her record or this issue.

I just can't believe that you buy your own bullshit. I am beginning to truly believe you are a paid operative. Your populist drivel is beyond belief.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. The candidates had no choice but to sign on to the DNC pledge. She could not have
continued running unless she signed that document. Until just recently, the Obama team wanted to extinguish the dreams of all the voters in MI and FL, Hillary and her team will continue to fight for the brave people that woke up that day, walked if they had to, drove if they could pay the 4$/Gal and made it to the polling places to participate in one of the most cherished rights we enjoy, the right to participate and have a say in our Government.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Ha ha ha ha ha. You are something else. Your fake populist garbage isn't even well written.
Her campaign didn't have to say this:

"We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process.

And we believe the DNC’s rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role.

Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."

Oh, that's right, she wanted their votes, so she pandered to those states. Now that there voting is over, Hillary wants her words back.

You lose. Thanks for playing.

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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Changing your mind is against the rules?
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. I see. Hillary changed her mind. NOW we know how weak your position is.
It's also one thing to change your mind and another thing to take back a pledge that you heartily endorsed (see the campaign statement I provided).

I think we're done here.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Our position is strong and it resonates with people across this country,
including "late to the party" Obama. See how well your position, that political party rules are more important than millions of voters placing a vote for who should lead this country out of this last 8 years of hell, plays with America.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. It is 3/4's of the way into the game.
And you know it.


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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Yeah, and Obama is changing his mind too. How about you?
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. and nice, pitiful attempt to twist what I said into another piece of your "populist" BS
yeah, I really meant that the voters were utter perversions. Right.
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Barrymores Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
40. Ahh...here you are again. Same ol' snark. Hoodah thunkit?
I'm not ignoring her. In fact, I'm will to engage her in civil discussion, because she is capable of elucidating a thoughtful and heartfelt comment.

By the way, on the topic of Hillary and RFK, here are a few things you should read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6111215&mesg_id=6111215
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Don't tell me you did not see all the posters who made a big deal that they are putting everyone and
Edited on Sat May-24-08 01:47 PM by 2rth2pwr
anyone who dared try and defend Hillary on ignore.
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Barrymores Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Sorry, I don't understand your post...
...no offense, but it doesn't make any sense as it's written.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. oops,sorry. Try again, just reedited.
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Barrymores Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
75. Actually, I saw a few. Sad, yes. But it's not like the same thing hasn't happened...
Edited on Sat May-24-08 03:06 PM by Barrymores Ghost
...ad nauseum, ad infinitum on Hillary's side. Please, let's not pretend this has been one-sided childishness.
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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
87. I actually agree with the OP and had one of my rare disagreements with
Olbermann's special comment on this issue. It was a damned stupid thing for Hillary to say but nowhere near as bad or as evil as many have implied/stated. It was a gaffe, nothing more and nothing less.

I realize you said "many" in your subject, but I do wish people would stop speaking about Obama supporters in sweeping generalizations. There are many of us out here who have tried to be fair to both candidates, and there are many of us out here who chose Obama after giving careful consideration to supporting HIllary. (And, in case anyone cares, the minute I see "Obamabot" or any other name calling, I hit ignore -- that makes me not give a damn what the individual has to say. Same goes for Obama supporters who call Hillary supporters names.) I've found many Clinton supporters to be fair and respectful and I find many to be irrational and rude. The irrational rude ones don't obliterate the fairness & respectfulness of the other supporters. I hope that all will keep that in mind when speaking to or about Obama supporters.
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NoSunWithoutShadow Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent Post
As a fellow Obama supporter, I also think it was a huge gaffe. Not career ending, but I suspect this probably ends any chance for HRC being VP.

K & R
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WA98296 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. Speech coach? The woman is a trained Lawyer and seasoned politician...
Lawyers CHOOSE their words very carefully.... Candidates for this high office even more so. THREE times she has brought Assassination to the table. She's injected race, she's flat out lied.
It isn't "misspeak" this was a calculated ploy that has backfired in her face this time.

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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
80. "Lawyers CHOOSE their words very carefully"
No, they don't. Unless you're implying that Obama really did intend to say that an out-of-wedlock baby is, in effect, a punishment. Or how about his grandmother being a "typical white woman"?

Also, according to O supporters, he is a seasoned politician. He doesn't always choose his words well. I'm sure there are other instances, but I'm not going to bother Googling them. Perhaps you'll remember some of them if you look back on his campaign.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Good theory, makes sense.
My problem with the statement, all along, has been that it was incredibly *stupid*.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. As I responded up thread to Wolsh--
Yes, it was a stupid comment.
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. Some things just sound nuts on there own
She said she was 'waiting'.

Waiting where? On a corner?

What is she 'waiting' for again?

Question - Should this woman really be waiting?

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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Jodie Foster and Reagan"
Edited on Sat May-24-08 01:17 PM by Boojatta
How about Saddam Hussein and Kuwait? Lt. William Calley and My Lai? John McCain and Iran?
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. More threads like this need to stay up top....sensible ops...
we can never get enough of them.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
26. I've Started To Respond To Many Threads On This Subject & Have Stopped Myself Too...
Thanks for this one.


K&R
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. Then she should have never trained her brain to think "assassination... Robert Kennedy."
Your explanation (btw, a good one) makes her look worse.

The best thing she can do to salvage her political career is apologize to the Obama family, African-Americans, and all Americans, then exit stage right quietly. At this point, I doubt she will retain her senate seat come the next election cycle. I'm sure NY would prefer a more progressive senator, like RFKjr.

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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. I agree with that-
Edited on Sat May-24-08 01:38 PM by Mother Of Four

It never should have been part of anything she said, however over the course of this campaign it's been shown over and over again she's really not had the best advisors, or organization.

Whichever advisor it was that told her "NO! You can't use that!" Is probably one of the only good ones she's got. (This is all just a guess btw- educated guess but still a guess.)

I honestly don't think she will apologize to the Obama family, or America in general. Doing so would show she KNOWS it can be taken as a hint to the wackos to do whatever it is they think she wants them to do.

Yes, apologizing would be the right thing to do. Yes, it needs to be done. But I just don't see her doing it because of her "Just in case" view of things.

(Edited for an attempt at clarity)
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
60. I hope she does apologize to Obama's family and to the American
people...it just depends on how she goes about it..she possibly could make a speech that would be a wonderful and powerful one...that could make the country forgive her...she must have some really talented speech writers that could do this for her..just like Obama did after the Wright incident..
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. That's definately a thought-

It would be nice if that would happen. One can dream right?

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Barrymores Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
72. Swamp Rat, please read:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #72
88. This is excellent reasoning BarrymoresGhost..
and I'm glad I finally read your thread, thanks.

"My point is, either this is a deliberate calculation on her part to play on people's worst fears or it is incontrovertible evidence of a judgmental lapse of the highest order, and showing once again that she's prone to act and speak like a complete dumb-f*ck under pressure.

Frankly, I think America can do a lot better."


This is what makes sense..the other fluff for hilary is just apologizing for a monster, imo.
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Barrymores Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
35. Her historical premise/excuse is a bald-faced LIE.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I'm not disputing the timeline being manipulated-


I think we all know that WJC had the nom wrapped up before June. Also, with the primary scheduling that year his June wouldn't have been akin to our June.


What I'm talking about is the assassination comment itself, bringing it into the equation etc.
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Barrymores Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Please just read the link. Thanks.
We're not in complete disagreement, but I have a few thoughts there that I'd like you to consider.

Peace.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Sure thing-

Reading it now.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. This is what stood out at me-
(Clip from your post)
"Now, it didn't generate much flap back in March but, especially given the racial overtones that this campaign season has taken on, wouldn't it make sense for her campaign advisers to insist that a) she get her political/historical references straight and b) she refrain from alluding to a murdered political figure -- regardless of whether that possibility is her rationale for staying in a race, or something else entirely different?"

Upthread I made the comment to Swamprat that she hasn't had the best advisers, as has been shown repeatedly. I don't support her, I don't think she would make a good president at all. I feel there have been way too many lapses in judgement on her part and the part of her campaign.

What I'm taking issue with, is the fact that I truly and honestly feel people have over reacted a little bit. Please realize though, this is coming from someone who has gotten angry with HRC many times over this campaign. I'm not immune at all to the bad feelings that are evoked.

I feel that what she said was uncalled for, insensitive and could possibly be used as a justification for a terrible act by some stick throwing crazy person out there.

However, I do feel it was an "Oh Shit!" moment and she knew it as soon as it came out of her mouth. I really and truly believe that all of the theories floating around out there are terrible.

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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
38. K&R. Excellent post. Thank you.
:hi:
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
58. Reading over some of the subthreads-


I think my original thread got hijacked a little :(

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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Sorry about that.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Sa'll good :)

I just hate to think my thread caused an argument instead of a discussion is all.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
70. Plausible. I think that options 1 and 2 are very real possibilities, however.
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progetto Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
76. 4) she's delusional
and is imagining the miracle or tragedy necessary for her to get the nomination. What next ?

She really needs a friend to talk her down from the ledge. Bill and/or her advisors should step up and help her face reality. She can still salvage her political career.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
82. There is a gap in your analysis and, imo, it is one that would need to be addressed...
You write:

"I think earlier in the campaign, March I believe, HRC tested the original comment out including the reference to RFK's assassination. I believe her internal polling showed it was falling flat, and she modified it to take out that hot button word.

Knowing that HRC has a speech coach(acting coach?) she must have practiced the delivery of that comment over and over again in the mirror, in front of staffers as critics etc.

The brain is a funny thing, it works with repetition. If after she found it was falling flat, and worse had a bad reaction, she wouldn't have practiced the modified version that much because of not being able to use it often. She literally had an "OH SHIT" moment right after it came out of her mouth, you can see it in the tightening around her eyes."



What is missing is why her reference to RFK's assassination would have been considered to be way appropriate at all as part of her response to why she is staying in the race. That, in my mind, is a very key piece in the analysis of Hillary's comments in March, April and May.

What would you surmise is their reasoning in seeing it as an important talking point to use, not just once but multiple times?



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