Malloy ripping Kerry over "nuanced" Iraq remarks.

[MikeG]

Says if you don't make the difference black and white the Repugs will say you agree with them and the media will help them.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

1. He's exactly right.

I hope someone from the Kerry campaign is listening and taking notes. The sheeple need STARK, CLEAR, DIFFERENCES.


Nuance is for DU debates and Mensa meetings and college classrooms. Not Presidential campaigns.

[checks-n-balances]

3. I agree with both of you and with Malloy

He's a realist, and I don't know WHAT Kerry was thinking. First of all, he dignified a hypothetical question with an answer. Second, as M. Malloy says, people don't bother to hear his complete, nuanced answer. They hear just the first line & that's all they need.

As bad as things are that people ignore the gray areas & don't get nuance, WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE THAT and need to understand that, NOW! Malloy is PO'd and I understand why and he asks the right question: Who the hell is advising Kerry and what the hell are they thinking???

[Nederland]

12. Disagree

At least in this case. The bottom line is that, good or bad, Kerry voted for the IWR. As a result, it is impossible for Kerry to stake out a "STARK, CLEAR" difference without looking like a flip-flopper. Kerry is doing the right thing here by sticking by his vote.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

16. He already looks like a flip-flopper.

Sorry, but it's true.

I'd rather hear, "I voted for it, but I was wrong, and I'd never, ever, EVER put America in that position! A Kerry administration will NOT lie to Congress, will NOT rely on faulty intelligence, and will NOT lead us into another Vietnam-like quagmire!!"

Wouldn't you rather the sheeple hear that than some long, nuanced response???

[Fovea]

2. Malloy just said "there you go again"

He knows the very sentence that started the second civil war.

[janx]

4. He's right about that.

Kerry has to be strong on this one; he has to be very candid. Bush* is already twisting the "nuanced" remark and using it.

[sandnsea]

5. Guess Malloy's an idiot too

He could spend his time reminding people of what BUSH SAID in Oct 2002, but nooooo, that'd be too friggin' easy. More fun to nurture his little know-it-all attitude and bash Kerry. We beat ourselves every time.

Such a resolution, Bush said, should not suggest that military action is "imminent or unavoidable," only that the United States was speaking with "one voice." October 8, 2002
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/08/bush.iraq /

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

11. From the link within that article:

Sen. Robert Byrd, D-West Virginia, was adamant in his opposition to Bush's plan. "The U.S. Senate is being asked to vote on a resolution that puts the stamp of approval on the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive attack," the president pro tempore said. "I think that's wrong."

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/07/bush.iraq.reax/index.html


Note: Why am I not surprised that you invoke Chimp's words to make your point. Was Kerry misled by Chimp or would he advance the same authority, knowing what he knows now? That's the crux of the matter. If he was misled his decision was based on faulty information and, by it's very nature, a malinformed decision (the very basis of the vote is nullified). If he wasn't misled, than the exercising of said war authority was justified. So what's it going to be: was he misled, or not?

[sandnsea]

15. We're running AGAINST BUSH

NOT KERRY. So I don't care what Byrd or anybody else said about that goddammed vote. WE are letting Bush get away with yet another goddammed war lie and I am sick to death of people who will ignore every putrid thing Bush has done in order to beat that stupid vote into the ground. BUSH said it wasn't a war vote in 2002. NOW he says it was. Why do you people NEVER NEVER NEVER give a rat's fucking shit about what GEORGE BUSH says or does? You're helping Bush win and you're so pompously self-righteous that either can't see it or you just don't care.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. Why don't "we" people give a rat's fucking

shit about what GEORGE BUSH says or does?

Because he doesn't represent "us."

...I am sick to death of people who will ignore every putrid thing Bush has done in order to beat that stupid vote into the ground.

20,000 dead? 30,000 dead? A million dead? When does the vote stop becoming "stupid?" This vote abdicated the war powers invested in Congress by that "stupid" Constitution. A vote on a tax break for Halliburton can be considered "stupid" and without lasting merit. A vote on WAR deals not in money but in human lives. The vote is as justified as the war-- not at all.

You're helping Bush win and you're so pompously self-righteous that either can't see it or you just don't care.

1. Nothing posted at DU has one whit of influence on the election.
2. I'm voting for Kerry.
3. I believe that holding our representatives to a moral and consistent standard is what differentiates us from our opposition.
4. Criticism of Lord Kerry should not be misconstrued as aiding and abetting the enemy. It should be construed as thoughtful and responsible citizenship. The alternative is marching in unwitting lockstep, akin to supporting a logo.
5. Self-righteous? You're goddamned right!




For What!?!

[sandnsea]

21. George Bush did it

ASK HIM. HE is the one that said that vote WAS NOT a vote for war. ASK HIM. HE chose the date to launch the war. ASK HIM. He DOES represent YOU because HE is the President. ASK HIM.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. I'll drop him a line.

Thanks for the advice.

[CTLawGuy]

39. wah wah wah

criticizing Kerry is not tatamount to helping Bush. Get some perspective. We all blame Bush for the war, that's why we are so vehemently against him. However, we are not going to let Kerry get a free pass either.

[Kahuna]

6. I agree with him. Kerry has got to get a much better response

together before the debates. Time's a wasting.

[Placebo]

7. He's absolutely right.

Kerry is up against the most skilled, powerful, and evil people ever to grace the political scene let alone the white house! he (kerry) has to fire back better than he is.

[Ducks In A Row]

8. oh great. another voice adding to the crapfest

It didn't matter what the hell Kerry said, or didn't. The Rethugs would spin it regardless. Kerry is being Gore'd, and there's nothing to stop them.

I'd rather listen to Randi. She at least sees it for what it is.

Malloy hasn't impressed me at all, and this isn't helping his case.

[NYCGirl]

38. Except that yesterday, Randi said the same thing...

She admitted she was wrong, and Kerry did not defend himself against Bush's "mockery" of Kerry's latest war vote answer.

[KittyWampus]

9. Since Malloy Has Never Won An Election

his opinion is worth jackshit.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

18. By that logic,

unless you've ever done a radio show, your opinion about Malloy is worth jack shit. :eyes:

[Gloria]

10. Example. "turn the corner" ...Kerry mocked it in his stump speech...

and now it's gone from Bush's. Sure, the numbers don't lie...but mocking it--DISPENSING WITH IT as being ridiculous....I am sure was the real reason why it's out of Bush's speech.

So, I don't see why a slam at the "boat people" and the $87 billion in the stump speech can't help do the same thing....that's the only way the Kerry side will be reported....if they turn it around in the stump speeches that get some press coverage.

Awhile back, a pundit said that Kerry, the late closer, might have to start "closing" earlier....the Convention was a good start, but the campaign MUST put these things to bed quickly.

There are 3 1/2 more LONG weeks until the close of the RNC and then the heat gets even hotter. Practice makes perfect....it's time to perfect twisting the knife in Bush's back NOW...so it can be used very effectively in the fall...

[Barret]

13. Unfortunately iraq is off the table now

The media has (and will continue to) say that kerry would have gone to iraq as well.

Maybe kerry wanted it off the table, though I don't know why. Regardless, he can't come out attacking bush for iraq now when the media has the masses thinking he just said he would have done the same.

In other words bush gets a free pass on iraq thanks to this slip up.

[MikeG]

17. Every new round of dead soldiers reignites the controversy.

Kerry should focus on how the aftermath is being handled.

And forget about why. We got why down pat.

[MikeG]

14. It's a good thing Kerry wins on the economy. Bush won this round.

Face it. Concede it. Don't let it happen again.

[sleipnir]

20. Kerry keeps digging his own grave.

Malloy is absolutely right no matter what all the Kerry apologists will say.

Kerry should have made a clear cut position on Iraq, but why are we surprised at his comments???? We shouldn't be, it's totally in line with the rest of the DLC attitude on Iraq. It's not a mistake, he's not really that upset over the war. Kerry is becoming quite two-faced on this issue and that angers me. He'll tell us (his Dem base) in formal speeches that Iraq was a mistake, but then in comments off the cuff and in private he states the opposite, that he's "fine" with the Iraq war.

If I may paraphrase a comment I saw on another board today, "Mr. Kerry, this is the kind of talk that turns Blue states into Purple ones."

But hey, the anti-war crowd was silenced at the convention platform, so what the hell should we expect from the DLC/Kerry advisers?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

26. Right on Zulch

Kerry has NOTHING to apologize for.

[sleipnir]

28. Excuse me???

I have a right to state that I believe that people are apologizing for any and every Kerry gaffe or mis-statement. It's true and it's sad. We should all be able to criticize our nominee, within bounds of course. This is the same attitude that brought "ABB" to the level of little to no critical discourse. Now that Kerry has the nomination, he can say about anything because the alternative is Bush.

If this is Kerry's true position then we should accept it and not try to spin it, which the "apologists" (that may be too harsh of a phrase) are more than willing to do. Instead, let's work to changing his position to one that is more Progressive and better reflects the values in which the Democratic Party believes.

Zulchzulu, I certainly don't appreciate being labeled a "freeper" though sly means. Those are strong words, not to be carelessly thrown about as one sees fit. Just because I don't fully agree with what Kerry says and can occasionally see the forest through the trees, doesn't make me a Republican. Many on the left share my views, but many have been frozen into silence because of the fear that any criticism will help Bush. This is simply not true and only propagates our current culture of fear.

My words may not be soft, occasionally harsh, but are only said to help our cause and our party become a stronger, more effective force. Without discourse, we are nothing.

I am highly critical of Kerry's war position, I have been since Day One, as I'm staunchly against the crusade we are currently engaged in.

[bigtree]

29. Kerry has NOthing to apologize for, and I've no need to apologize for him

His conduct in this campaign and in his career has been exemplary.

[sleipnir]

30. I would respectfully disagree with you.

Several of his votes over the last three years are blemishes on his otherwise excellent record. "No Child Left Behind", "IWR", and his non-vote on the overtime rules are a few that come to mind.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Kerry is a good candidate, he's not my perfect candidate so I'll certainly have critical statements about him.

I'm mostly upset with the last three years of Kerry's service in the Senate where I feel on critical bills he was voting in regards to his future run for President.

Don't misundertand me, I like Kerry as a candidate, but many, and I include myself, feel that Kerry is running a campaign more to the Center of the party and the dreaded term "swing voters." Which of course tends to alienate those further out on the branch.

[bigtree]

31. On all of the stated issues, there are answers from Kerry that I accept

The overtime vote is a canard engineered by republican Senators who had more than enough votes to have some of their members sit out the vote to make it appear that the margin was slim enough for Kerry to make a difference. If his vote (procedural, not on the actual legislation) would have made a difference he would have been called back by Daschle. Daschle said so, and said he had been given Kerry's assurance that he would return for any critical vote in which his mark would have made a difference.

Sen. Kerry Creates Petition against Overtime Revisions. Tuesday, August 5, 2003
http://www.hrnext.com/Article.cfm/Nav/5.0.0.0.27992

[sleipnir]

32. Fair enough, it's a good article.

I'm not willing to concede the OT vote, yet. I still believe it would have sent a message, even the procedural vote, to Bush and those who are trying to strip the country of decent wages.

On a similar issue Kerry did a great job on Gay Marriage amendment. He even openly attacked the Republicans for trying to use procedural votes for political gain. I guess on the second trick, Kerry called them out. Kerry's got the guns, I just wish he'd pull them out sooner and with more vigor.

I don't agree with Kerry's reasoning on IWR or NCLB, but we're entitled to our own opinions.

[regnaD kciN]

35. Yes, comrade!

Big Brother is right. Big Brother has always been right.

:eyes:

(Anyone notice the similarity of some posters to the Ashcrofts of the right? If you criticize what you see as missteps by America, you're only helping the terraists. If you criticize what you see as missteps by Kerry, you're only helping the Republicans. In each case, "good citizens" or "good progressives" are only supposed to shut up and blindly follow our leader, whoever he may be. S.S., D.D.)

[bigtree]

40. I have nothing to apologize for

And that makes me communist? Or Ashcroft. You are awful quick with the insults for some one who doesn't know spit about me. Criticisms are fine but most of the posters who claim that Kerry isn't responding are ignoring the reams of responses that Kerry has made so far and are relying on the facist media to shape their opinion of his campaign. Vote for whomever you want. Speak your mind. I just wish that we could have more focus on the responses that Kerry has given than the grousing that goes on here.

Your insults speak volumes about your tendancy to prejudge without facts to back up your assertions. Kerry is responding. Google Kerry responds, or Kerry attacks, or Kerry questions, or Kerry bashes. There are plenty criticisms there of Bush to satisfy. You must not be on the right wavelength.

BTW, if I want to hear Kerry bashing I can always turn on Fox. We should be spending our time here elevating our candidate, not tearing him down. That's just good sense. It's not suppression, it's a strategy to help Kerry win in November. I wish folks would save their insults for the republicans and lay off our leading Democrats, but some will persist. Good luck with that.

[bigtree]

22. Most republicans would never spend their time grousing over their own

candidate's shortcomings. Malloy's time tonight would be better served focusing his venom at Bush. Perhaps then we could get more of the criticism of Bush out there. Unfortunately many who didn't support Kerry at the start are satisfied to spend their time tearing at their party's own candidate. Weak.

[zulchzulu]

24. Malloy wants Kerry to do the "Dean Scream"

Wrong, Malloy. You're overreacting.

Leave it to the professionals, dude. The last thing we want is to have Kerry screaming in an cherry-picked soundbite JUST IN TIME for the GOP Convention.

I know how you feel, Malloy.

If it were sex, you'd be doing what's called premature ejaculation. This is a long race. Don't blow the wad too soon, buddy.

[Classical_Liberal]

33. The Dean Scream was blown out of proportion by the very

people that gave us the fucking war. I like making them unhappy. I don't like candidates that do their bidding or kiss there ass.

[flaminbats]

34. Kerry is giving the Daschle doubletalk...

how is overreacting possible when the initial actions include murder, treason, and theft? As I have said to many close friends, if Kerry ran an effective campaign...we wouldn't have to give reasons not to vote for Greens. Greens and Democrats would be 100% behind Kerry and his agenda, not trying to rationalize making Nader or Cobb into political enemies of peace and democracy!

And to do this, no waffling is necessary. Kerry needs to provide voters with a deadline and exit strategy from Iraq. He needs to make small-d democracy a central theme in his message. Moderate voters overwhelmingly favor IRV, abolishing the Electoral College, and making election day a holiday. Opposing any of these would only tick off mainstream voters. Finally Kerry needs to make the connection between universal healthcare and jobs. He has discussed both, but does not treat them as being interconnected. Healthcare costs go up and insurance becomes less accessible, because the demand for healthcare delivery is far out-pacing the demand. Kerry should focus on increasing the supply of healthcare delivery by offering government training and employment for the unemployed interested in medicine.

Most importantly, Kerry cannot ignore the role censorship and news denial networks have in politics. Every day Kerry should be sending another representative to CNN or ABC just to make new attacks on Bush's double-talk and indecisiveness. We shouldn't always be responding to their attacks, they are the officeholders and they must be forced respond to us! Kerry may have a war room...but it acts more like a brigade of Nuns. They only respond to Bush attacks, then hope voters might listen to positive things about Kerry.

A political winner must always know the pulse of the press, see around political corners, also be able to create a news story and keep it on center stage. James Carville could do this, and so could Lee Atwater. But this is one critical area in which the Kerry campaign is failing.

[zulchzulu]

37. Kerry IS running an effective campaign -check the polls

These little hiccups will mean nothing in a few weeks.

I like your ideas and actually Kerry has been addressing them. Check out his web site.

[LoZoccolo]

27. I remember Malloy going off the air for a few minutes...

...because he started talking about the "Bush crime family who engineered 9/11".

The UAW used to pay for his show to be on the air and he started using it to spread his MIHOP sentiments. I never really liked his show.

[Kimber Scott]

36. I've been saying this for the last two days and people here want to keep

telling me what Kerry "really" said, or what he "really" MEANT. Now, I wonder if anybody will believe me when I say, again, nuances in politics don't work? But, I promised I wouldn't say anymore about this for a week, from yesterday. We'll see then if it's fallen out of the news, or not.

I'm telling you, though, the problem isn't what Kerry "meant" it's the fact he doesn't know how to play the media like Rove does. Maybe, Kerry should read Rove's play book, "Mein Kampf," and take some notes. He needs to simplify his message and say it over and over and over and over and over again. The voters who haven't decided who they are going to vote for, yet, aren't paying enough attention to get nuances, they get sound bites.

He with the best sound bite, wins.

[bigtree]

41. You can't rely on what is presented in the media to guage Kerry's response

Most aren't reported on. If you want to elevate our candidate then you should dig for the truth of what Kerry has said and try to further his comments with media appeals.

I don't think that those who are urging Kerry to do more in this or that are giving him enough credit for what he is achieving so far. He won't be able to be all things to all people in this campaign. I personally don't think he should try. As ridiculous and infuriating as defenders of Kerry, like me, sound to some, detractors who bitch and moan about style, inflection, quibble over stuff like whether he said mislead or lie, or bemoan him for not adopting their own strident or pointed rhetoric, infuriate folks like me who are as committed to Democratic principles as anyone on this board, and who feel Kerry is setting just the right tone at this point in the campaign.

I also take issue with open grousing about the tenor or timber of how Kerry presents himself. And the endless complaints about some position he took on some past issue that he won't repudiate, only serve to fuel the opposition and divide our own party.

These same detractors will bitch and moan about a media that they claim distorts and then turn right around and blame Kerry for not getting his message out. I was completely turned off by the comments tonight after the Hardball appearance that Kerry should display that fighting attitude more often. I can't help but feel that these folks don't have the interest in him to actually follow what Kerry says every day or how know anything about how he conducts himself, every day.

I hear these same folks complain about a single point on his site or in a speech and completely ignore 99% of the rest of his effort or words. Look at Kerry's site. Do a search on the issues that concern you. Look up his speeches. Watch his videos. Google his name.

There is an eloquence and depth in John Kerry's efforts that surpasses any nominee in my lifetime. The only peer that comes to my mind that matches his ability and commitment is Robert Kennedy.

It's no surprise to me, that those who actually know him think the world of our candidate. And I will not drag his good name into some public chastising. That is the most destructive effort that I can imagine. I won't give quarter to those who spew invectives about John Kerry while claiming their support. I won't give quarter to those who only claim to support him as a 'lesser evil' to Bush.

I challenge everyone to reflect on those who were left behind in the campaign so far and try to understand that John Kerry's success has much more to do with the excellent campaign he has run so far than with 'sheeple' or some oblique notion of electibility. I challenge everyone to put aside their differences and openly pull out all stops for John, and leave the griping to republicans.

[dennis4868]

42. It is amazing....

here you have a pResident who lied to us and to congress into war, did not plan for the post war, and ALMOST 1,000 SOLDIERS ARE DEAD, and he is the one who is on the offense and Kerry is on the defense? WTF!!!!!!

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT? Rove is a genius...an eveil genius that is....