A true Floridian's perspective: Why I am ultimately most angry at the DNC for the current mess

[Tommy_Carcetti]

For anyone who has read any of my previous posts on this board, you know that I am a member of the Democratic party and I live in Florida. And that on January 29, 2008, I choose to go to polls and cast my vote in the Democratic primary because it was the only day where I was allowed to do so.

You would also know that the DNC's decision to strip Florida of all of its delegates has upset me greatly. When I have voiced my frustration on this issue, I typically get one response: "Well, you should be angry at the state party members for voting to move the primary." When I bring up the fact that the DNC's decision to strip my state's delegates due to the actions of a few leaders (and effectively render 1.7 million votes legally cast under federal and state election laws null and void) constituted a collective punishment on all the Democratic voters on the state, I typically get talk about how we live in a representative democracy and we are subject to the will of our elected officials. And that my only means of recompense should be to be angry at my state leaders and vote them out of office the next go-around (assuming that they are not already term limited out, as many of them are.)

However, in my opinion at least, all the flowery talk about living in a representative democracy goes out the window when it comes to an individual's vote. Without an individual's vote, there would be no representative democracy. There would be no democracy, period. That is why the right to vote is the most sacred of all our rights as US citizens. Because all our other rights flow from that one right--we are indeed a government of the people and for the people. And that is why that we as Democrats, but more importantly we as American citizens, can never, ever stand for a situation where one is either denied the right to vote, or where one's vote is denied the right to be counted and given proper effect. If you or any members of your family ever lived in a country where such a right was denied (and having my mother and her family coming to this country as refugees from the Stalinist USSR, I am in such a position), you would realize the true awesomeness of this right and you never, ever contemplate staying home on election day and taking that right for granted.

So needless to say, the thought that my vote may not be given proper effect has disturbed me greatly. The fact that my vote may not be given proper effect by my own Democratic party disturbs me even greater. I am upset. I feel as though we learned nothing from the 2000 election. I feel as all the great talk about the importance of counting votes was for naught. And I must admit that this feeling of bitterness and anger has increased exponentally as time goes on. The more the situation remains unresolved and my vote remains in limbo, the more frustrated I become.

So the only question left is at whom should I be upset? And people will point to many culprits. They will say the Clinton campaign, the Obama campaign, or the state party. However, this is not about any candidate. This is not even about the superficial issue of which states should vote when. This is about the ability for one's vote to be given proper effect. And only one party in this matter controls that ability.

And that is the DNC.

In the end, I must ask myself a simple question: who is refusing to count my vote? You can talk on and on all day about the supposed sanctity of DNC rules and the ability to enforce those rules, but at the end if those rules are being enforced and being used to punish ordinary voters, who merely had the audacity to show up on the only day they were allowed to vote and then voted, I see no logic in the DNC's decision. It was an overbearing punishment that exceeded its target in the most violative of ways. The DNC had the discretion to punish state officials without stripping all delegates. Instead, like fools, they choose to punish everyone in the state. The lack of logic and wisdom and common sense of this action confounds me. I simply do not understand why this was done against me and millions of others. I do not understand why my party would choose to do such a thing, after everything we have been through in the past decade.

Still, there will be people who insist that I must instead be angry at my state party (and yet offer no clear solution as to how my vote should be given proper effect; all I am left with is the useless non-solutions of "being angry" and "voting them out of office"). Indeed, state party officials may have technically violated the DNC rule on what primaries go when after they moved the primary a mere week in advance. If the DNC sees fit to punish those officials, I will not object. Frankly, I think the fact that the primary was moved a single week is pretty arbitrary for any sort of harsh punishment against those officials, but rules governing party official's conduct will be rules.

But whether state party officials screwed up or not, I will say one thing on their behalf: They at least have the decency to be fighting for me, the ordinary rank and file Florida Democrat. They are arguing that my vote should be counted. They are filing lawsuits on my behalf. They are on the news shows speaking for me. It is the DNC that up to this point is telling me my vote should not be counted. It is the DNC who imposed the collective punishment on all Florida Democrats. For anyone in my position, if one were asked to be honest, it is a no-brainer to realize which side I would naturally be most upset about. And that is the side that is oppressing me (for lack of a better term) by refusing to count my vote. It is not the side that whether or not they may have technically violated a rule (that up to this election cycle, no Democrat gave much thought to), is still arguing for my vote to be counted. That is common sense.

Still others will try to obscure the issue by injecting the current candidates into the mix, and throw in talk of pledges and such, and accuse them of hypocricy for changing positions. For the record, I will say it is undeniable that Senator Clinton is arguing for the inclusion of Florida's delegates out of her own self-interest, and she likely would not have argued the same had she not won the primary. However, I will also say for the record that had Senator Obama won the primary, he would be doing the exact same thing, and his supporters would be vocifieriously arguing for the inclusion of the delegates. And that anyone who argues otherwise is either being disingenious or otherwise doesn't know jack about politics. Because self-interest is at the very heart of political campaigns. People will do what they do in order to win. And I don't think anyone is immune from such a proposition. So whether Senator Clinton is acting out of self interest in arguing for the vote to be counted (and had circumstances proven otherwise, had Senator Obama won the state and was arguing the same), it is irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. A person may be right for all the wrong reasons, but in the end, they are still right. And counting the votes and having at least some proportional seating of the delegates is certainly the right thing to do. And that is something that has nothing to do with either of the candidates to this point.

And for anyone who argues that the national Democratic Party is a private organization and it doesn't have to abide by the long-cherished notions of due process and equal protection of one's right to vote, that is the most insulting argument of all. We are, after all, the Democratic Party. Our party's stated purpose is to have leaders of our beliefs elected to governmental office, including the Presidency. Therefore, we have an unmitigated duty to mirror the exact same ideals and protections of our American society and our American government within our own party. It is the only sensible way to proceed if we wish to present ourselves as the true champions of rights and liberties. To paraphrase, democracy begins within.

Last but not least, I cannot fathom the rationalization or thought process of any person who is a resident of this state who had the ability to take the time out of their day to vote on the only day they could, to argue that the votes should not be counted and the delegates should not be proportionally seated in at least some partial fashion. I just do not get it. I don't understand why someone would think the better solution is to simply sit at home and bitch and moan on the internet about what state party officials should or shouldn't have done, and still in the end say that the votes shouldn't be counted (no matter how eloquent their musings may be or how many links they may include in their posts). I don't understand why any resident of this state who is registered Democratic could do such a thing. It truly boggles my mind that someone would be so negligent of their own self-interest and their own rights like that.

I am a Democrat, a Floridian, and an American. I cannot sit back and let my own voice be silenced like this. And I will not sit back and be told who I should be angry at, because I know who I should be angry at. And I most deeply desire that this week the DNC steps back, recognizes its error of collective punishment of ordinary voters, and remedies its mistake by granting me the voice in my own political party that I deserve.

[WeDidIt]

1. As a Democrat in one of the 48 states that followed the rulles

Your anger should be directed at the idiots in your state legislature that decided to hell with the rules.

So you got exactly what you deserved because your state chose those idiots for the legislature.

If we count your vote, my vote doesn't count, nor the votes of the peopel in the 48 states that followed the rules.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. Of course your vote counts.

Why wouldn't your vote count if my vote counts? That makes no sense whatsoever.

[WeDidIt]

20. Not if they count your vote, it doesn't

Your vote wasn't supposed to count. The candidates proicedded under the rules that your vote wouldn;'t count becuse Florida is filled with idiots who put in legislators who break rules.

If your vote count, it alters everything that went on in the election. Edwards could have stayed in had he not followed the rules and went into Florida to campaign.

Nope, your vote should not count because counting it is one big FU to the rest of teh states that followed the rules.

[hfojvt]

36. you might also note that the Tsarina herself

did not expect any votes to really count after February 5th. Those 22 states that voted later would be rubber-stamping the choice made by the early states. That's why Florida and Michigan wanted to go early. Even as early as they went, the original field of six - Biden, Clinton, Dodd, Edwards, Obama, and Richardson was already down to three and by Super Tuesday it was down to two.

[The Doctor.]

104. You need to educate yourself before slinging blame.

You've been told, many times in just this thread, that the choice to break the rules was made by the FL legislature.

If a cop tells you to "Don't shoot or I'll shoot you.", and you start shooting, it's your fault he shoots you, not his.

The DNC made it perfectly clear; "Don't do this or we won't seat your delegates.". When they went ahead and moved the date up knowing full well what the consequences would be, they accepted responsibility, and therefore the blame, for the results.

Blaming the DNC for the actions of the FL legislature, however you may justify it, violates all reason.

Madfloridian knows a great deal more about this than I do, so go and get educated first;

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

... and then maybe you won't look so unreasonable or ignorant.

[Sancho]

125. I like Madfloridian, and your advice is good here because I differ with her in part:

Read what the Pre primary position of the Florida Democratic Party said:
http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

Next, look at an out of state perspective from a state who benefited by breaking the rules without a penalty:
http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5465

Finally, hunt around for the FL Democratic Staff report written before the primary that concluded why a DNC ban on campaigning precluded accepting a "penalty" and fighting the GOP to change the primary date (a large pdf file in the FL archives):

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES STAFF ANALYSIS
BILL #: CS/HB 537 Presidential Preference Primary
SPONSOR(S): Rivera and others
TIED BILLS: IDEN./SIM. BILLS: SB 1010
REFERENCE ACTION ANALYST STAFF
DIRECTOR
1) Committee on Ethics & Elections 9 Y, 0 N West Mitchell
2) Economic Expansion & Infrastructure Council 12 Y, 0 N, As CS West Tinker

I think that in the end, the DNC was excessive or at least punished the wrong offenders, cost themselves a bunch of time and money in court, and hurt the chances of an election victory in November. Simply wanting "revenge" or whatever they think is a poor excuse for a fair response from the DNC.

[Independent-Voter]

6. Exactly. If Floridians are too lazy to keep track of what their representatives are doing, well,

tough shit. 48 states didn't have the issue that Florida and Michigan legislatures CHOSE to get into.

[MyNameGoesHere]

10. Alright! Fuck Floridians they are stupid!

More wits of wisdom from the hope, unity, change crowd i see.

[WeDidIt]

23. History proves

if you count on the Florida vote to win, you are guaranteed to lose.

Nobody should have a strategy to win with Florida. The state has proven itself incompetent to ever hold any election.

Proceed under the assumption you have already lost Florida and you can win.

[MyNameGoesHere]

63. Then you need to take away their right to vote.

Go ahead run on down there and take their right to vote, even stupidly away.

[WeDidIt]

72. Why do that? They already took their own votes away from themselves n/t

[reflection]

268. LMAO.

They walked into that one.

[Independent-Voter]

37. Again, 48 states didn't seem to have the issue that FL and MI chose to have

Not my problem if the citizens are too lazy to keep track of what their representatives are voting on.

[MyNameGoesHere]

65. hey take some of that unity, hope and change down to the sunshine state

I am sure they would appreciate it.

[mystieus]

69. I guess you haven't seen the entusiatic welcome for obama in the sunshine state

[Independent-Voter]

121. Apparently they could use an education in how the primary process works.

[sendero]

181. No...

... more wisdom from the "you only want unity when you are losing" crowd.

UNITY, would have been following the fucking rules. I have NO SYMPATHY for Florida, the fucking epicenter of everything that is wrong with America, and I hope not one delegate is seated.

[MyNameGoesHere]

211. Oh wow. bitter and full of hope, unity and change.

You are definitely a supporter.

[demo dutch]

281. Well F-you too! The DNC wanted to count the votes in 2000, but now they don't give a shit, because

it's inconvenient! The idiot FL party leaders didn't get punished but the voters are!

[still_one]

7. and with that logic, we got exactly what we deserved with bush

Of course Steve Geller is no prize either

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/files/geller_amendment_fullh.264%20300Kbps.mov

[sendero]

182. As a fact, in the collective we..

... that America is, we did get what we deserved. How could anyone say any different?

Unfortunately, a lot of good people have to suffer with the others on this ship of fools.

[VeraAgnes]

87. I totally disagree.............

All Votes Must be Counted. You will learn on Saturday that the rules violated the inalienable right to vote and have the Party vote be recorded.

A political party is formed only for the purpose of gathering like minds to wherein they can channel their voice as one, represented by each member casting a vote. Fines are acceptable but are in the form of monies, not with the silencing of its members

[Exilednight]

144. There is no inalianable right to vote in the Democratic primary. We do not choose our candidate ...

through the vote, we choose them through a convention.

Also, there is no law that says a political party must recognize a vote from any one person. If this were the case, then every person who is legally qualified to vote in the GE would have to be allowed to vote in any and all primaries.

The DNC rules plainly state that any state that jumps the primary process shall, at a MINIMUM, lose half their delegates.

[eridani]

234. In general elections. The Constitution has nothing to say about political party internal affairs

Caucus states don't bother trying to count Repub votes--we don't care what they think about our nominees.

[vssmith]

93. I am sorry he did not deserve anything of the kind!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

111. "If we count your vote, my vote doesn't count"

Makes no sense whatsoever.

[WeDidIt]

119. My vote was cast following the rules

His wasn't.

If his vote counts then I should get another vote because my getting another vote would violate teh rules as much as his vote did.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

120. But your vote still counts. It always counted.

:wtf:

Seriously, :wtf:

[spoony]

145. I second that WTF

I've heard a lot of arguments for suppressing votes, a lot of stupid ones too. But this "if your vote counts mine doesn't" really takes the ribbon. Maybe that's what we should be telling people at Gitmo: "I'm sorry, but if we grant you due process then *I* can't get a fair trial!" wtf indeed.

Great OP btw.

[eridani]

235. Most people's primary votes have been utterly worthless

--the nominee having been determined long before all the primary elections or caucuses were held.

[Sancho]

122. A specific discussion of the rules from NH - interesting FYI

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5465

In fact, the DNC does not follow the "rules" except selectively.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

123. Interesting. n/t

[Exilednight]

147. A little bit of background for you .........

All the states listed, NH, IA, SC, received permission, before moving their primary, by the RBC. This was allowed since several states moved their dates up to Super Tuesday, including California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Kansas, Minnesota and several others.

Also, the rules state that the MINIMUM punishment is stripping a state of half their delegates, but that the RBC may take further action. FL, or MI probably would have had a half stripping if only one state moved up, but since it was two the RBC wanted to send a loud and strong message.

We're a nation of laws, and laws are nothing more than rules. If people decide not to follow the rules then we have nothing but anarchy.

If FL and MI were smart, they would have moved up to Super Tuesday with the rest of the pack, but they believed they were better than everyone else. I can actually see an argument for MI moving up their primary before Super Tuesday, but with SC already ahead of Super Tuesday it makes no sense to allow FL.

[LisaM]

128. I refer you to posts 122 and 125

Florida and Michigan weren't the only states that "broke the rules". But they are the only two being punished.

Should we also disqualify Nevada, South Carolina, Iowa, and New Hampshire? I think we must, if it's all about rules.

[roguevalley]

141. as a member of the 48 rules following state I agree. jeez. what is

so hard about blaming the RIGHT PEOPLE: the fuck ups in Michigan and Florida that didn't follow the rules. Don't blame the DNC. you would be wrong.

[Double T]

3. The DNC perpetuates the problem of disenfranchising voters.

I believe this PROBLEM could actually destroy the Democrats chances for wins in the Fall elections. The DNC leadership has failed miserably.

[Cassandra]

19. It is actually the DLC that has failed miserably...

but, dream on.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

How Dare the DNC have RULES for the primary - there shouldn't be any rules at all

oops - Hillary supporters helped set up the penalties.

[Double T]

38. Elitists' rules that disenfranchise voter's votes.

NEVER thought I'd see SOME Democrats subscribing to THIS kind of BS!

[Cassandra]

47. How is it elitist to have rules...

you, who happily spout the elitist positions of the DLC?

[Coexist]

70. Iam a Floridian, and this is by far the lamest response on this thread.

[Double T]

226. I was expecting YOU say SOMETHING ELSE?

Floridian Democrats VOTED overwhelmingly to NOMINATE HRC. Elitist Democrats are certainly trying to make that different.

[beac]

244. And Harold Ickes and 14 other Hill Supporters VOTED

not to count your votes if you moved up your primary.

And she didn't give two shits for your votes until she was behind, so who REALLY screwed you???

[beac]

243. and that's sayin' something!

It's a tough category to win. ;)

[movonne]

33. Why do you insist on blaming the DNC when it was the state of

FL and MI that broke the rules...in other words you are saying because Fl and MI broke the rules it is the DNC fault..what a crock..

[BlooInBloo]

4. I'll go with what madfloridian says on the matter.

[midnight]

5. Time is teaching me that to vote is important, but to work for a

candidate is living in a represented democracy that you get to try to shape. "However, in my opinion at least, all the flowery talk about living in a representative democracy goes out the window when it comes to an individual's vote. Without an individual's vote, there would be no representative democracy. There would be no democracy, period. That is why the right to vote is the most sacred of all our rights as US citizens." See if there is someone in your area that needs help with a campaign, and see if any skills you have will help them, and then see if you can help turn this around.

[hokies4ever]

8. You should be mad at the state senator Geller

who publicly mocked the DNC. That is what brought the wrath upon Florida's delegates. They will be seated though, so no need to worry.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. I'm not.

I'm sorry, but I'm not.

The DNC bears the ultimate blame here. They choose the unjust collective punishment.

[yourguide]

21. BS...it's in the rules and bylaws. It's quite clear.

Your party leaders knew the consequences of breaking the rules and still chose to.

For example, you commit a crime, you get arrested, you get punished. So who's fault is it? The criminal or the cop?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. I've been through this over and over again.

This is collective punishment. This isn't about punishing the criminal. This is about punishing everyone who lived on the same street as the criminal for supposedly allowing a criminal to live in their midst.

[yourguide]

30. Nope. it's not.

Sorry buddy. Better idea, instead of whining now why dont you wait until after the rules committee meets? Its rather silly for you to be pissed off at the DNC for taking your vote away when they havent.

My bet is the states are seated at half, as written in the bylaws, and I hope and pray both MI & FL super delegates get stripped of their status as they lead their states into this mess.

[Jen-MI]

192. Which is exactly how it should have been done in the first place!

It is the DNC's fault. The states decided to not follow the rules. The DNC tries to bully them by stipping all of the delegates in an attempt to make the states conform. The states, knowing that they do have some power because they DO matter, thumb their nose at the DNC. May I remind you that the RNC had the same situation, but in Michigan there was not a mess because the candidate got 50% of the delegation. Suggestion to the DNC: stop being so stupid and follow your own rules! I realize that they can punish more than 50%, but why would they totally be removed. It was obvious that there was going to be some fighting and the DNC knew this in advance and did not attempt to fix it until after the primary! How silly!!

[Heathen57]

148. I believe you are wrong.

a better analogy would be that you and your neighbors hired a thief to break the law and gave him your power of attorney. You would then reap the profits of his labor.

Now that he got caught, you want to blame the cops for enforcing the laws that he and you both broke.

When you elected your representatives you gave them the power to speak in your name. The decision, in this case was to be arrogant and flaunt the rules, is something that you need to take up with your reps, not the DNC.

[PassingFair]

165. Because people were aware of the penalties, some didn't vote.

Some voted in ways they wouldn't have otherwise.

The primaries were INVALID.

The are NOT representational of the
will of the voters.

They are FUBAR.

[Jen-MI]

193. The state party said that their votes would eventually count....

In Michigan, there were like 400,000 more votes this year than in the 2000 primary. People did vote!

[PassingFair]

198. A lot of them voted for Huckabee and in other ways to screw with...

the 'pukes.

What Brewer told to people who attended
committee meetings was not disseminated
to the voting base. The "state party" does
NOT GET TO DECIDE, you know. They were
playing chicken with our delegates and
they LOST.

No one knew for sure whether or not the
votes would count.

EVERY state has had record turnout.
People voted.
Just not all people, and
in MICHIGAN, they couldn't
vote for the candidate of their
choice.

I know MANY who wrote in their
candidates as a protest.

NO WAY can Michigan be seated as is
and declare that the "votes were counted".

[hokies4ever]

29. The cop is to blame

he could have decided to change the rules and let the criminal go. :rofl:

[Sancho]

124. The people who created the mess have not been punished at all!!

The handful of Fl Democratic Leaders who were in on the initial primary date change are getting free air time and are as popular as always. None of them have been "fired" or lost anything at all.

The GOP legislature who took advantage of the situation and trapped any state representatives who wanted to set a different date are laughing at the DNC.

The GOP candidates got half their delegates, but more importantly got to campaign, debate in Florida, raise funds, register voters, and set up an organization for the general election despite the same "mistake".

The Democratic candidates lost out on that same campaign money and excitement in a key swing state.

The DNC is spending money fighting lawsuits and lots of time and energy that they could be using putting together a good convention and fair election.

Some voters in Florida, especially independents and third party folks are planning to vote for McCain simply because they are pissed at the DNC.

The GOP heavy Fl legislature will likely continue to set a primary date that the DNC won't approve and load up that day's ballot with all kinds of important referendums so that Democrats have to go out and vote twice and run their own expensive primary.

This "punishment" has been excessive, arbitrary (per the rules), and produced no effect at all in terms of punishing any bad guys.

Mostly, this "punishment" is hurting, not helping a Democrat win the White House.

[Jen-MI]

194. Exactly....Nicely said!

[beac]

246. According to Florida Hillbots, it's the DNC

who incited you to commit the crime. Luckily, Hillary will be your criminal defense attorney... and no doubt charge you $500 an hour for the privilege of having her lose your case.

[hokies4ever]

25. DNC is partially to blame, but the legislators are also

Have you seen the youtube video of Geller in the Florida legislature mocking the DNC? Here it is:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r25wUeMAwdE

If you read Dean's reasoning for docking all of the delegates, it really comes back to a lack of a good faith effort to not break the rules. Here's the outcome though. Dean WILL seat FL and MI. He just wants to hold the legislators' feet to the fire a bit. Everyday that goes by is another day of phone calls and e-mails of their constituents complaining to them. Dean will take the time on 5/31 to thoroughly embarrass some of them on national TV. That's why Geller is filing that lawsuit. I bet that Dean will play this video on national TV for everybody to see. The whole point of this is to discourage them from doing it again in 2012. Anyway, by the time the Convention comes around FL and MI delegates will be seated and have the red carpet rolled out to them.

[Sancho]

135. I suspect that everyone saw the Recount movie on HBO, so you know...

that a Florida court appointed by Jeb Bush followed by a Supreme Court appointed by GW Bush might do damn near anything! Who knows what a federal court ruling invalidating the DNC primary process, part of it, or whatever could do?

It might favor one candidate or another! It might foul up the entire convention.

I think that Geller is very wrong, and the DNC or Fl Democratic Party or anyone else who punishes him is well-served. Putting voters in court against the DNC is flirting with all kinds of potential mess.

The penalty to punish the voters is bad strategy at best. Believe me, the FL GOP legislature won't think twice about violating DNC rules in 2012. It worked well for them this time and they are looking forward to doing it again.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

27. little kid - Mommy you're bad for setting rules

if there weren't any rules I wouldn't have to break them.

[LynneSin]

133. Denial is not just a river in Egypt

Your guy insisted on bypassing the rules. Nuff said.

Your state democratic party has denied your vote.

Is it fair to rewards delegates when many of the candidates like Obama and the other 2nd tier candidates vowed to not campaign in FL/MI because of these rules violations.

[beac]

247. More cow bell!!!!

:)

[beac]

245. And Florida KNEW about it and went ahead anyway, so HOW

can you possibly give your state reps a pass?

Madness.

[WonderGrunion]

262. You do realize

This wasn't a trial where the punishment is determined after the crime is adjudicated. Florida and Michigan were told weeks before their sham elections exactly what the punishment would be and given the option to fall in line or suffer the consequences. Those two states acted like 8 year olds that don't believe their parents will actually ground them. I have no sympathy for them now.

[yourguide]

9. As another democrat in one of the 48 states that followed the rules:

Take it up with your state party leaders, they created this mess.

The FL dems introduced the bill that moved up the election AND

all but 1 FL dem voted to move it knowing the consequences.


And as a dem from NY, the 3rd biggest state in terms of population behind Florida, with all due respect since we're bigger than you then we should have gone ahead of you guys but we didnt.

So funny you are like the parent of a child who broke in line and got in trouble, only instead of being upset with your child you're angry at the teacher.

[WeDidIt]

16. I live in Illinois

We could have shoved our way to the head of the line and given Barack an insurmountable boost, but we didn't. We followed the rules.

[yourguide]

24. Bingo...and if they were going by who had the most population

it should have been:

California
Texas
NY
FL


Again, florida would NOT have been first. No reason for FL to bully their way up...none.

[cosmik debris]

11. Who made the decision to break the rules?

Why aren't you equally mad at them?

[cali]

12. What I want to know is if you're angry at top Hillary deputy and

DNC member, Harold Ickes? Are you angry at all the other Hillary supporters on the DNC who voted to punish FL? And do you actually think you could have a functional primary if every state just did what they wished regarding scheduling?

And I'm so sick of the fucking whining. My vote has been meaningless in every primary except this year's, and frankly, I could give a shit.

[Skink]

13. Didn't they only strip half the delegates? And Hillary would get the entire half..

that is in play.

[TheDoorbellRang]

15. Since they will be deciding Saturday on how to seat FL at the convention

your angst is a bit premature.

You might spare a bit of anger for the non-homeowning Floridians who didn't participate in the January vote there because the property tax issue that drew all the homeowners to vote didn't affect them -- because as Floridians were told, the presidential vote wouldn't count.

As it stands right now, the results of a flawed election will be used to determine the FL delegates at the convention. Now that oughta piss you off.

[LeFleur1]

28. It's a Sad Day...

...when people who profess to be members of the Democratic Party do not want votes counted.
It seems these people become more and more like the corrupt in the Republican Party every day.
The people of Florida live in the United States of America. That the DNC has become powerful enough to discard votes by the people is a horrifying example of how far we've strayed from democracy in this country.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

31. I thought about that this weekend....

....when I watched "Recount" on HBO. And I literally felt depressed the day after, not just because of the eight year outcome of that story, but also by the fact that it seems that so few people have learned the sad moral of that story.

[SaveAmerica]

113. (1) This has nothing to do with Florida '00 ( 2) Who do you consider the 'untrue' Floridians?

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not ask who you are insinuating is not a true Floridian, then you posted this. It tells me all I need to know.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

127. Anyone who sits back and says it is perfectly okay for their vote not to count....

....because of something that state party officials supposedly did at some point in time, and that they are hunky-dory with the concept of collective punishment on the voters (including me) because of those rascally state party officials, I am ashamed to call a fellow resident of my state.

In 2000, we should have learned that the voters intent is paramount to all other concerns regarding the democratic process. But sadly, some people, even in this state (because it apparently doesn't suit their interests) either have forgotten or refuse to admit this.

[SaveAmerica]

159. I think it's inflammatory to say that votes are not going to count when they are working to find

a solution. It is wrong to run around saying that Democrats are acting like Republicans and are trying to suppress votes or 'denying people the right to vote' (paraphrasing your words). That's just wrong on many levels. You're trying to stir stuff up here, even if you're doing in a very calm way, it's still not right.

That 'the voters intent is paramount' is a concept that stands alone, not to be questioned. The General Election of 2000 and the Primary of 2008 are two completely different occasions with different details, different cast of characters, different ideas altogether.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

209. I just wish the DNC hadn't been so reckless in its "punishment" in the first place

If the penalty is to strip half the delegates, then go ahead and strip half the delegates. (I'm not a huge fan of that either, but at least Florida voters still get some say). The DNC got so caught up in wanting to send a "message" to state party officials that they were willing to advocate for total disenfranchisement of the voters in Florida via the stripping of all delegates.

I liken it to a cop chasing a criminal and the cop reaching for his gun, but instead of pointing it at the criminal, the cop graps an innocent guy off the street and points the gun at his head and says to the criminal "If you don't give yourself up, this guy gets it!" It was a stupid and reckless move on the DNC's part, and I pray that we doesn't hurt us in the long run because of it.

Listen, I have no plans to leave the Democratic Party. I have no plans to advocate voting for John McCain in the fall. I simply want to say that I was part of my own party's process in selecting a nominee, and leave whatever disputes the DNC had with the state party (and visa versa) out of it. I have no problem with the stripping of Florida's superdelegates as a punishment. If it means we have to seat a half-delegation, so be it in the interest of the DNC rules. But I think when all the dust is settled, it will be pretty clear that the DNC overstepped its authority in threatening to punish people (i.e. ordinary voters) who didn't deserve to be punished.

[beac]

250. Then maybe your girl Hillary and Harold Ickes should have done something about it

when the punishment was being out in place.

Did she refuse to sign the pledge to abide by the rules then?

Did Ickes do ANYTHING but cheerfully sign off on the punishment then??

Did you call her to ask her to plead for you then?

Did you take to the streets in full-throated protest then???


No. No. No. And no.

You have NO ONE but yourself to blame.

[beac]

249. "supposedly did at some point in time" ??????

:wtf:


You really are willfully ignorant, aren't you??

[TheDoorbellRang]

48. Oh cry me a river. Do you even grasp the difference between a primary and a general election?

A primary is when a political party gets feedback on who they should put forward in the general election. There is NOT a constitutional right to "vote" in a primary; it is a constitutional right to vote in a general election. If the DNC so chose, they could ditch the entire primary process and go back to the smoke filled rooms to pick their candidate.

All this whining about voter disenfranchisement in a PRIMARY fergawdsake merely displays a gross lack of knowledge of civics.

[Sancho]

136. A good lesson about caging!

The GOP intends to use registration, ID's, residency requirements, and felony records to again cage the vote in Florida. The best way to ensure that a voter's vote will count is to run a closed primary. Then you have to show up, have your ducks in a row, and be ready to go for the general election. Democratic candidates lost the opportunity to campaign and recruit new voters and get them registered, while the GOP was having a field day at the primary. If your vote or entrance to the poll were denied, you have months to fix it! As it is now, you won't know until your vote is tossed on election day.

Not having a campaign in Florida for the primary in Florida may have cost the Democrats thousands of potential new and valid registrations.

It's not just a primary down here - it's a full-time war.

[beac]

248. I want LEGITIMATE votes counted,

The Dems who voted for this fuck up ate the horrifying examples.

And I live in that pesky "reality-based" world where RULES mean something.

[flpoljunkie]

17. As a 5th generation Floridian, I say "bullsh*t to your post!

It's not about counting our votes, it's about Hillary Clinton's delegate count.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. It's not about any candidate.

It's about individual's votes.

But if you want to continue to flagellate yourself about it, that's your call.

[flpoljunkie]

49. More bullsh*t.

The Florida and Michigan delegates will be seated at the convention, but with some kind of well deserved penalty for breaking the rules.

[beac]

251. Please don't use big words that you don't understand the meaning of.

[ensho]

45. it is about counting the votes

nt

[Egnever]

18. Sounds like what you really want is for your vote to change the outcome of the election

I suppose we all want that power. However thankfully their are adults in contropl that realize the results from florida and michigan have no bearing on what the results would have been had the campaigns been run normaly.

You live in a red fucking state. Stop crying about your vote in a beuty pageant primary and get off your ass and help turn the fucking thing blue so you can stop getting fucked by the GOP election after election.

[BlooInBloo]

40. They're just grasping at post-facto justifications for ignoring their own state party's fuck up.

[madfloridian]

32. Wow, Hillary's propaganda machine did its job on you.

And the effects are permanent.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

34. Deleted post.

On my better judgment. And on what my parents told me when you have nothing nice to say. :grr:

[berni_mccoy]

58. Some never want to look at the truth, only what they've been told by their idols

The OP is a prime example of that.

[DeschutesRiver]

35. Re the primary

If I understand this correctly, Florida did get a primary date, right? It just wasn't the date FL wanted, but there was a day to vote provided, just like for all the other states.

If the rules said that is the day to vote, then there is your day to exercise your voting rights. If you all showed up on the a nonsanctioned day just because, or worse, as I understand it, another day was chosen but many didn't show up because they understood that voting on the unsanctioned day wouldn't count, then the results aren't fair, and there is no equitable way to distribute the partial vote done.

From what little I've read, it seems the problem might lie more within your legislature than the DNC - DNC sets the rules, all the states follow. I'm in Oregon and would rather have a better date - but why would we not use the date that is sanctioned, rather than risk losing our valuable votes by just picking something else outside of the official process? It would just mean that we chose to disenfranchise ourselves. Really, most years by the time our date rolls around, we vote knowing that we don't count. If you guys wanted to jump ahead in the system, but not face a penalty for it, then shouldn't we be able to do that too?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

41. So you're telling me I should have gone to the local elementary school....

...where my precinct is located and sat around all day waiting for poll workers to magically show up?

[DeschutesRiver]

59. I am asking a question

about whether the state of Florida was in fact given a day to participate, but chose not to exercise it. And if so, then the fault would seem to lie with those who chose to lock up your polling places. I don't see what the DNC had to do with that.

I agree that if the state of Florida took away your sanctioned date, you have a beef with your state. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't want your state treated differently than mine. I don't want votes in your state counted now in a way that would be unfair to either candidate. For whatever reason, the vote counts are now flawed, and that shouldn't be taken advantage of by either candidate. At this point, your state needs to make lemonade out of lemons, for sure, but you can't really pretend that those people who stayed home in your state got an effective voice in your primary either, right? And then the issue of fairness to those other states that are also a part of this larger process - fairness is just as important to the rest of us as to you guys.

I dunno - maybe you guys could sit it out this year, and try to find a way to fix things so that this isn't repeated next year. I mean, seriously, if Florida had taken the assigned date, this wouldn't even be an issue - do I understand that right?

It would be great if there was a way to fix this; but if it isn't fair to everyone, then that ship should be considered to have already sailed. Otherwise, this whole system is just a corrupt joke.

ETA: I am not being a smart ass about it, just saying that every year we have a date set aside to vote here in Oregon, and we show up and vote. We've done this for years and years and will for years to come. So how come it doesn't work like that in Florida? What makes it not work is what you need to fix for the future.

[Dr. Strange]

88. If you care about your vote counting, then YES!

Or better yet, you should have let your politicians know about all this BEFORE they gambled with your vote. Because right now, they are playing you like a cheap violin. They are playing hardball with YOUR vote and hoping you'll take it out on the DNC rather than the FL pols. The question is, are you going to fall for it?

[Sancho]

137. Believe me, most of us in Florida could care less if we voted on 1/29 or 2/05!

I doubt it mattered to any of us as voters. On the other hand, I think it would have been very useful to have the candidates (all of them at that time) running around, raising money, debating, registering voters, and turning this state against the GOP!

The position of the local state party is on links that I posted earlier. If you agreed or not isn't critical. I think there is some issue about which candidate is favored in the delegate count that has some stirred up. That is not my issue since I'll vote for the Democratic candidate no matter who it is...

I'm pretty convinced that punishing the state for the sins of a few is bad strategy, but that's my opinion and I could be wrong. Generally, I agree with Madfloridian on most things, but we respectfully disagree on the best course for the DNC on this one. Some have concluded that I must hate Obama or something (which is not true). I think the entire pool of candidates this year was outstanding. I would have been happy if it had been Richardson and Edwards fighting it out right now.

I would have favored a "revote" of some kind initially. Since that didn't pan out, I'd say doing something nasty (if possible) to the Fl Leadership and simply letting the process continue normally might be a compromise. I'm not sure what the options are...but staying out of court down here is always the best choice. You think our voting machines are crazy! You should see our court decisions.

[DeschutesRiver]

174. I think if I lived in your state

I would be spitting mad that stuff like this keeps happening. I generally think it stinks to high heaven that a state can't get its act together, for whatever reason, to allow its citizens to easily exercise their voting rights.

I feel just as bad for the Floridians that stayed home and were disenfranchised as for the ones that voted on a nonsanctioned day and will be in some fashion disenfranchised - it is wrong either way, but no need to compound the initial injury, except like you say by at least punishing those responsible for the fiasco.

I don't suppose you guys could just tie lead anchors to the voting machines as you kick them off your piers, and go to a mail in ballot system like we do here in Oregon? Yeah, it is still a human run election process, fraught with the perils of cheats and incompetents, but there will never be a perfect system. I haven't heard of too many issues with it - there were some duplicate ballots sent out this time, but honestly it never arises to the level of courtroom challenges (and I am an older retired lawyer, and have watched the FL courts with much amazement - we have our Ninth Circuit, whose decisions are also known to be a bit left field at times.

All mail-in voting requires is a stamp and as much time as you need to really think the ballot through as you make your selections. Maybe with the price of gas, you could count it as a contribution to being more "green":)

[Sancho]

178. We love mail in ballots - especially from relatives in nursing homes!

We've had several legal challenges in 2000 and 2004 where mailed ballots were "tossed" if the permanent residency wasn't confirmed (many live on boats and in trailers), ballots were "missing" from the US Post Office (Clearwater), and comatose people were sending ballots with "help" from GOP recruiters. (One local small-time paper got in trouble with a tasteless cartoon of Terry Schiavo's voting record with Jeb Bush getting the vote for the last two elections.)

Now we have to show picture ID's obtained with birth certificates to vote at the booth. If you've moved from Oregon or came from overseas or whatever, you are generally going to have a problem with the legal documents. You can't "reregister" within 29 days of an election, so primaries are useful to test your registration before you show up and try to vote.

But hey, even if you get that far, the voting machine will only count a limited number of Democratic votes (usually less than 50% before the undervote starts to rise) and common African American and Hispanic names are on a list of felons to be challenged at the poll!

Florida is a great place to visit for vacation! Come to Disney World, where Katherine Harris once worked as Snow White (no kidding)! Take a voting machine home as a souvenir!

[DeschutesRiver]

203. I didn't know you guys had mail in ballots!

It sounds like all the issues you have with voting aren't so much related to the type of balloting you choose, but the kind of people who interject themselves to get the result they want, right? That isn't as solvable.

I have been to Florida once, when I had to show up for a board meeting - in one afternoon, gone the next day by noon. But what I remember is that it was late October, and while I left a rain soaked Oregon, the warm air in Florida smelled liked summer, the sunset sky was ass-kicking, and I kept asking in a stunned way "is the weather ALWAYS this nice this time of year?" I had exactly a half hour to watch some routine with boats jetting around, and then stuff being blown up at some nearby amusement park sort of deal, maybe called Universal Studios? My only other experience with FL is watching too much Miami Vice, and The Birdcage about a thousand times.

[Sancho]

214. We can vote inaccurately by mail-in ballots or early at the election office.

You must have been at Universal or MGM. Yes, the weather is perfect except for a few days of terror during summer hurricanes. Miami Vice isn't accurate, the South Beach sunbathers are much better looking than on TV (politically correct gender neutral English)!

Five miles from home!
http://www.drbeach.org/drbeach/
Welcome to DrBeach.Org
America's Best Beaches 2008
Dr. Beach Names Caladesi Island Beach #1 in 2008

Too bad that the state government is worse than third world. Maybe the DNC would send you down as an election observer.

[DeschutesRiver]

228. Maybe I should beg the DNC to send me asap

It wouldn't exactly be a hardship post, would it? No wonder you guys have election troubles.

If we had beaches like that here, maybe my attitude too would be "life's a beach, wake me up when either when the election is over or it's time to turn me over to bake the other side...":) I'm sure you know that in Oregon, our beaches are for storm watching mostly....

[ensho]

39. kick - agree

nt

[CTLawGuy]

42. how would you have the DNC enforce its rules?

NT

[Tommy_Carcetti]

43. Not against the voters, that's for sure. n/t

[yourguide]

51. Ok well F it then...I am going to petition NY to move up our primary...

screw the rules, and screw the other 49 states.

You still havent addressed the fact that your state party leaders created this mess. They introduced the bill that moved up the date and ALL but 1 dem in the FL state legislature voted IN FAVOR of moving up the date.

How in god's name can you blame the DNC for your own state's stupidity?

[LynneSin]

134. Let's just have 2012 primary season start on Feb 3rd 2009 then

that'll give us one week after President Obama is sworn in that we'll start the primaries.

[Sancho]

146. Please check out the whole story...not that simple. I talked to my local reps.

The original change in a primary date was introduced by both the GOP and several of the Democratic Party leaders together. The FL Democratic leaders who did that were stupid...BUT, after that there were arguments, discussions with Dean, and other concessions. Finally, an amendment was introduced that CHANGED the primary date back to a DNC acceptable date. Not only was that amendment defeated by the GOP, but the GOP took advantage of the situation by loading all sorts of important legislations, referendums, etc. on the same ballot as for the new primary date. IF the Democrats ran a separate primary, they would have a low turn out for the Republican only primary that included the important ballots (paper trail, taxes for schools, etc.) AND vote against the bills that they had fought all year to introduce!?!

Many of the state Democratic representatives at that point were out of options, and could not change the date nor vote against legislation that they felt was critical.

The Fl Party was offered some penalty with a compromise (caucuses for example), but the DNC insisted that there would be no campaigning in FL. That turned the tide against the DNC if a compromise was possible.

Were some of the FL Leaders stupid to get into this mess! Yes!

Did the DNC have a way to get out of it - sure; just give the same penalty that the GOP had for an early date. You get half the delegates, but campaigns were allowed to continue. The "four-state pledge" killed that option, so now we're letting a Republican judge decide the Democratic candidates' fate! Smart, real smart! Karl Rove couldn't have planned it better!

[yourguide]

160. All of the dems but 1 voted to move it up.

ALL BUT ONE

[Sancho]

162. They voted AFTER the GOP was going to move the date anyway AND

the bill was loaded with every item that the Democrats submitted of importance:

paper trail for ballots
tax support for school
home insurance oversight (Florida hurricanes)
etc., etc.

Most had no choice but to vote for the omnibus bill. The primary date was one item in the entire package.

The GOP defeated the amendment to move the date to Super Tuesday.

[yourguide]

166. You need to go read madfloridian's journal and then come back.

your facts are dead wrong.

[Sancho]

167. No...I just talked to two Florida Representatives who were there and voted...

I know the story. As best as I could, I confirmed the things I was told and they all checked out.

The facts are not an issue at this point. No one really knows (nor ever will ) what one person said to another behind closed doors or over a burger in Tallahassee.

Geller was recorded at the end of April. The amendment to change the date to a "legal" date that was defeated had a cover sheet in the first week of May. Regardless, the amendment to fix the date was too little, too late for the DNC, and was doomed by the GOP anyway.

Details get lost in revisions, what's available on-line, etc. None of that is relevant at this point. If you ignore the spin, did you see the official Fl Party explanation: http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

I can try to PM the pdf report from FL party staff on the predicted consequences of changing the dates.

Facts:

-Some Fl Party Leadership planned together with the GOP to move the date.
-Once the date change became public, there was plenty of discussion with the DNC, warnings from Dean, etc. (but minimal public awareness).
-During that time, the FL GOP loaded a large bill with stuff that some representatives could not realistically "vote against" and included the primary date.
-Geller was an idiot on the video.
-Some reps. were serious about changing the date, others were not, but virtually none could vote against the "large bill" (including the primary date).
-The DNC compromise of a penalty of 50% delegates was still not of interest to many reps. because it still didn't allow campaigning (4 state pledge).
-In the end, the FL leadership was wrong to get into this mess.
-The DNC was too harsh in trying (unsuccessfully) to punish Fl Leadership, and they alienated voters instead (note the protests this coming week).
-Unfortunately, this has ended up in an unpredictable court case and national press and confusion.

I agree with Madfloridian that Fl leadership was a problem. What I don't agree with is that the DNC still didn't follow their own rules (see links in this thread) and the DNC was too harsh by punishing Fl voters instead of the ones who were guilty or a punishment that was equal to the GOP (my opinion)...Is there something that you don't understand?

I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion, but what happened is pretty well described if one looks for it. Madfloridian is a good place to look.

[yourguide]

168. The protests are being paid for by the Clinton campaign

who didnt give a crap about FL or MI until she needed them.

[Sancho]

170. That is simply untrue...

I've posted links to many protests sites having nothing to do with Hillary. Obama was greeted on stage last week by some who are protesting that the delegates be included. Here is a starter set...and many have planned protests. Many state upfront that they won't support a given candidate.

http://www.floridademandsrepresentation.org/

("FDR is not funded by any campaign, candidate, party or organization."}

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/

http://www.martincountydemocrats.org/2007/070828primary_vote.html

http://www.floridademandsrepresentation.org/files/NationalMASTERWeb2.pdf

\http://florida-delegates.com/pages/site-map.php

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5465

http://power-2-people.blogspot.com/2008/02/dnc-primary-rulesdisenfranchisement-of.html

http://www.countthevotes.net/id2.html

http://www.countfloridavotes.com/index.php

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article473738.ece

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/seatourdelegates/

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/hey-dnc-count-every-vote

[yourguide]

270. Funny how you managed to pull all of those links our of thin air

reeks of perhaps being an operative rather than a "concerned voter".

[demo dutch]

283. Try reading them, before you criticize!

[Sancho]

265. I've read Madflorian regularly. We pretty much agree on the timeline:

http://florida-delegates.com/pages/florida-hb537/timeline.php

If you go through all these steps and archives and look for drafts, talk to those state officials who voted, etc., then you can easily follow the description posted on the Fl. Party website from 2007. There is some spin and editorializing, but the timeline is pretty well established. Sometimes it is impossible to know what was discussed in the closets! I only disagree with Madfloridian on the extent of blame for the DNC. She puts more blame for the "mess" on local Hillary supporters and Fl Leadership, which I also admit contributed to the problem. I also think the DNC was too harsh and unwilling to compromise because some of them were pissed off at the arrogance of Geller and had a desire to "punish" rogues. I think the DNC over-reacted while Madfloridian is inclined to support Howard Dean. Actually, I like Dean, but he's in a tough spot negotiating this one. The four-state pledge really was a big problem in reaching a compromise in Florida also.

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

[Ravy]

175. Fine, move it up. Get your delegates cut in half. That's what the rules provide.

Now, if you move it up to where it really interferes with the chosen four, or make candidates sign a pledge that they will not be able to get NY delegates if they campaign in New Hampshire, then I can see an increased penalty.

But if you move it up a week and get your delegates halved, and don't retalliate when other states make candidates sign a pledge not to campaign in your state, then I say half your delegates is all that is warranted.

[CTLawGuy]

52. how else would you have them enforce the rules

don't dodge my question.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

57. Against the party officials, and not the voters at large.

That's common sense, not dodging. You know that and I know that.

[CTLawGuy]

61. getting closer

how do you enforce it against the party officials so that it will be a reasonable deterrent?

lets keep this in mind-
1. the party officials do not work for the DNC, and are not generally accountable to it.
2. the legislature does not work for the DNC.
3. the DNC is a private organiziation, and the state party is an independent but affiliated private organization.

[Ravy]

176. You are getting closer, as well.

The legislature does not work for the DNC, so the DNC dictating how they vote on any issue, and taking retribution against the voters when the legislators do not do as the DNC dictates, is just plain wrong.

[CTLawGuy]

185. the party does not have

to hold a tax-payer funded contest. Also there are significant numbers of Democrats in any legislature that could influence when the date is. I agree that if the Dems are truly hamstrung and are helpless against repug control of the legislature there should be a waiver. (This is not true in FL, the Dems went along and tried to blame the Repugs and claim (in bad faith) that they "did everything they could to stop the early primary." See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfmcYQu38hU.)

But what is your alternative effective sanction?

[Sancho]

229. One thing lost is the penalty compared to the crime.

Was FL is as guilty as possible. Did the VOTERS pass a referendum to move the date?

We talking about one week in a multi-year campaign? We're talking about a joint primary with the other parties. We're talking about a closed primary the encourages getting people to register as Democrats. What was the impact of this crime?

Shouldn't this deserve something other than the "death penalty"? If Fl had jumped in front of Iowa, or something really bad for the general election to the White House...then the death penalty would make sense.

In this case, a slap on the wrist was enough. That's what the GOP did. Some Fl leaders could have lost super delegate status, maybe Fl should have to wear dunce caps at the convention. Community service hours? Maybe the FL leaders would have to make a public apology in order to get delegates back.

[Ravy]

85. I would have them enforce them as they are in the rules...

not impose the extra penalty that the Rules Committee decided on.

Florida moved a week, and voted after the four that were allowed to vote early. We should have lost half of our delegation as the rules specified as a penalty. To be fair, the rules specify that the Rules Committee can impose additional sanctions, but ask yourself.. in Florida's case, what actions warranted the additional sanctions? Did we move before one of the annointed? No. Did we bitch about no campaigning in the state via the four state pledge? No.

The rules committee went for a total dismissal of our votes, which lead to arguments now over whether we are even entitled to have an opinion or not, whether popular vote totals will count for us, all sorts of shitty little pieces of fallout over their decision to give us the death penalty.

When the DNC calls me now (I have been a donor for many years), I say, "You realize I am in Florida so I don't exist" and hang up on them.

[dbmk]

117. The reason is

..that not only were they party leaders in Florida blatantly working for the move, but they are also completely indifferent to having their delegates halved, as the issue for moving up is not representation, but publicity.

The only punishment would be stopping the candidates from campaigning there.

[Ravy]

142. I wouldn't say they were "indifferent", just "accepting"

The vote they cast was popular with their constituents, particularly the adding paper trails to the voting machines.

The four state pledge stopped the campaigning, not the DNC. The DNC doubled the penalty for moving up the primary by a week. Losing half of the delegation was substantial, but that is what was in the rules and party leaders were willing to accept it, like the RNC did.

This type of infighting does no one any good.

[Sancho]

149. That is exactly correct. The answer is the same penalty that the GOP got.

Half the delegates and nothing else. I'm sure that the DNC could think of a way to remove individual delegate status for the rogue "leaders", or even a public sanction of the crazy ones. Now they have made the worst offenders into local heros? !

Total dismissal of the votes was crazy. No campaigning in Florida?!?! There are lots of $$'s in them-there beach houses! There are lots of new voters in those condos and trailers and boat-people and newly-arrived citizens!

The DNC got angry and tossed the baby with the bath-water! I agree that they should be angry (at some individuals). Going after the Florida voters is dumb. I get excited too (usually at college football games between Fl and Michigan!), but someone has to think critically and rationally when dealing the the Neocon/GOP/Bush/hell-machine! DON'T LET THE GOP WIN FLORIDA! It's time for a change I believe is the idea.

[Jen-MI]

199. Exactly how I feel in MI...I was offended that the DNC called me for support too!

[suston96]

44. Thank you. Great post and highly recommended.

That democrats are divided over voting rights is a dangerous and possibly fatal defect in what should be the champion party of the right to vote.

The Democratic Party Charter says very clearly that participation in primary elections must be fully and equally guaranteed to ALL members. DNC rules cannot violate that charter no more than federal and state legislation can violate the constitutions of this nation.

Democrats placing their own and their candidate's political ambitions ahead of the voting rights of their fellow members is an outrage of the deepest shame and condemnation.

[TeamsterDem]

46. Well ...

your argument falls a bit flat on its merits because of the nature of a representative democracy itself. A good analogy would be our place in the UN: If the US weren't a permanent veto member of the UN and if the US did something to violate UN "rules" which was serious enough for the UN to strip our delegation of its votes, would you be mad at the UN or mad at our representatives who committed the violation?

What you're trying to do is muddy the issue with the grand notion of democracy when in fact democracy isn't what's at issue. What's at issue here is that the DNC has long-standing rules against states bumping their primaries up - even Terry McAuliffe threatened Carl Levine's Michigan delegation if they broke those rules - and your state violated those rules; you don't seem to want to discuss the violation. While it's definitely not ideal to strip your state of its delegates, it's more abhorrent to have states jockeying with one another for primary position without any rules whatever governing that behavior. And with rules come punishments for violations. That's why they're rules, not guidelines.

I agree that the situation sucks. But there have to be rules regarding this behavior, and only effective sanctions can enforce rules. You might not like those sanctions but without them there would be anarchy.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. Democracy is ALWAYS what is at issue.

That's the whole reason for the whole shebang.

[TeamsterDem]

55. You're dissembling, however

You voted. No one prevented or inhibited you from that. But your state delegation screwed you by breaking long-standing party rules - the ones you don't seem keen on discussing - and they made you pay the price for their actions. It's a damn shame, but focus your anger on those deserving of it.

Had your delegation not decided to bump the primary then your vote would be just fine; the DNC wouldn't be involved in any dispute with your state (or you). But they did what they did and you're blaming the folks who enforce the rules instead of the rule breakers. I understand your outrage, but I think you need to direct it towards those who've earned it.

[dendrobium]

75. Why should any State ever obey DNC rules after this?

If the DNC does not stick to its rules, why should anyone obey the rules next time? If all the candidates knew that there was a possibility that the Michigan and Florida elections would count, they would have been forced to campaign there.There is a good chance that Obama would have won Michigan had he campaigned there.

In 2012, if a State wants to hold it's elections on January 1 and the DNC says no and agrees to a penalty, why would any candidate expect the DNC to enforce that decision - after this fiasco?

It is time to focus on the General election and to stop fighting this pointless battle.

[TeamsterDem]

76. Good post and welcome

:hi:

[dendrobium]

79. Thank you for the welcome.

Senator McCain launched an outrageous attack on the Democratic party - accusing Democrats of wanting to "surrender". The energies now need to be focused on McCain's plan to remain in Iraq indefinitely. This will be a catastrophe for the United States. How can any country, no matter how powerful, sustain this level of expenditure for 100 years?

[TeamsterDem]

80. The Romans would tend to agree with you

(and so would I)

[beac]

252. Exactly!

And perhaps deciding on some SET IN STONE primary rules would be a good idea too. ;)

(And welcome!)

[Sancho]

150. Were the rules muddied when the DNC "allowed" some states to go early?

Some have a penalty and others do not? There are other examples, but the DNC is not perfectly blameless in following it's own rules.

The bigger issue is why prevent campaigning in Florida? Why 100% of the delegates?

The penalty reflected the anger at a few individuals who were out of line! It did not reflect the proper balance of voting one week early!

The DNC simply needs a fair primary process: rotating first or all on one day or based on the last election's results or whatever - as long as it is fair.

The current system is smoke-filled, back-room, exceptions and unfair.

[billyoc]

53. I share the blame for the actions of my elected officials, as do you.

You're being collectively punished because you're collectively guilty.

[rocktivity]

54. Both you voters and the people who moved your primary date

gambled that the DNC would call their own bluff--and lost.

The DNC warned you both that your primary would not be considered legitimate and your delegates would be stripped. You did it anyway, and now you expect them to pretend it never happened. That won't happen simply because it would result in all the other states feeling free to ignore the DNC's rules.

But that certainly doesn't mean that you voters should be disenfranchised--you were victimized by the moving of your primary date, and of course you deserve to be represented. What the DNC needs to do on May 31 is issue a ruling that does seat your delegates, but not in a way that either sanctions illegitimate primary votes, gives any candidate an advantage, or declares open season on their own authority. I think the only way to do that is to seat the pledged delegates 50/50 (at full, not partial voting strength) and not seat the superdelegates.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Tommy_Carcetti]

56. Seating 50/50 is not a remedy. It is not proportional to the vote.

Especially in a situation where more than just two candidates were on the ballot.

Cutting the delegation in half is fine, so long as it is proportional to the results of our vote. I don't love it, but I am okay with that as a compromise to the situation. As long as Floridians get some say, and that say reflects what happened on the only date which Florida Democrats were able to go to the polls and vote, as a member of the Democratic party and as a resident of Florida I am content.

Striking the superdelegates is also fine with me. No objections there whatsoever. It has nothing to do with the popular vote of the people.

[yourguide]

60. It's called a campaign because people campaign.

If just staying home and buying some TV ads worked wouldnt everyone stay home.

HRC may have won that wide a margin on name recognition alone...but we'll never know.

It wasnt a fair election. Sorry. They should be split 50/50.

However both sides of the issue, EVERYONE, should be screaming that the super delegates be stripped of their votes. That is how you punish the people responsible for this mess.

[rocktivity]

71. Assigning the same number of delegates to each candidate IS porportional!

:headbang:
rocknation

[beac]

253. OK, and Obama gets all the Michigan votes because pink ponies are pretty.

:eyes:

[Sancho]

151. That is a good compromise...

unfortunately, the issue is in court so who knows.

Regardless, a reasonable idea.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

62. Boo Frickin' Hoo...

There are rules in this world. Breaking those rules has consequences.

Period.

You can't break the rules and then, well after the fact, demand that the rules be changed so that you can avoid the consequences.

Sorry for your luck. Maybe in 2012, you state will get with the program.

[2rth2pwr]

94. I don't remember this authoritarian stance in 2000. If you remember, the deadline for recounting the

votes was a rule used by the right to justify stopping the recount. As a Dem, we stand for the people over the party fat cats, and as a matter of principle every vote should be counted.

[eridani]

236. 2000 was not a primary election

The Dem party is entitled to choose candidates by any rules it decides on, even with no elections at all in smoke-filled rooms. That last isn't a good idea, but then neither is the idiotic notion that any state can just decide that if they want the 2012 primaries to start in 2009 they can just go ahead and do that.

[napi21]

64. How does your vote in Jan. differ from all the years when I voted

in primaries that were too late in the season to make any difference? I'm 64, and I've voted in EVERY ELECTION, Primary, General & Special, since I was 21 (they only changed the age to 18 later). NEVER in any primary did my vote matter, because the candidate had already been chosen. I Lived in 4 different States, and ALL OF T"HEM were late in the primary season. I wasn't thrilled about that, but I never threw any tantrums about it either!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

67. Because the delegates still go to the convention and announce the results of their primary.

In 2004, I voted in the primary even long after John Kerry was the presumptive nominee. I voted because it was my right and I knew even as a mere formality to an inevitability, my vote counted towards something.

[barack the house]

66. One question why did Florida folk allow them to move it up?..

That was the turning point Florida could of stopped it. If the right to vote for people is as serious as you say how come it got that far. The vote amounted to a poll as it wasn't official now unfortunately Florida is too broke for another vote.

[beac]

254. Yes, WHERE were the raging street protests then???

Why all this out rage NOW and not THEN???

[DAGDA56]

68. I voted in Florida in 2000 and in 2008...the difference is a twist of similarity...

...in 2000 I thought my vote would count...and certain forces manipulated circumstances after the fact, so that it ultimately did not. In 2008, I was certain my vote would not count. Now, certain forces are trying to manipulate circumstances after the fact so that it does. Post election manipulation of votes is never justified.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

73. And it is a bad thing that your vote should count because.....?

No, seriously. I don't understand your logic here.

That's a new one even for here.

[DAGDA56]

74. My vote counted for the Property Tax issue...The Democratic Primary vote in Florida was determined

to be illegitimate. Trying to confer legitimacy on it after the fact is a little disingenuous, if not dishonest, don't you think? Not to mention that thousands were disenfranchised by the "beauty contest" nature of the Florida primary and did not vote. Suddenly, my vote counts and theirs does not? How is that fair? The only fair solution would seem to be a new vote...but that isn't going to happen.

[beac]

256. Of course you don't understand... you are beyond the reach of reason.

[Orangepeel]

86. I voted in the presidential primary in Florida in 2000 and 2004 and my vote didn't count

because there was only one candidate running by the time I got to vote.

The Florida legislature, with the support of the Florida Democratic Party, decided that it would be better to have the publicity from an illegitimate early primary than it would be to have a legitimate late primary after the nominee had been decided. They made a bad bet.

[Sancho]

152. Hey, I got tossed from the polling area! My wife kept hitting a button and

the damn machine was changing her vote. After I voted at the adjacent machine, I heard her say to the poll worker, "ALL I WANT TO DO IS VOTE FOR CASTOR AND IT WON'T LET ME DO IT!"

After I raised hell about the machine, they rebooted it and kept using it. I took exception was was escorted out!

Will your vote count? Damn, the last group that I thought that I'd be fighting was the DNC and DU!

"I feel like a pointer in a field full of quail and not knowing where to turn!"

[beac]

255. Hurrah! A voice of reason from Florida!

Bless you for your common sense.

[Kaleva]

77. As a Michigander whose vote didn't count

, the only person I'm ticked off at is myself. I made no effort to contact the state party leaders here to voice my opposition in moving up the primary date and to plead with them to stay within the published and well known rules.

We get the government we deserve and my lackadaisical attitude awarded me what I deserved; a vote that doesn't count.

[Vinca]

78. If I was a Floridian, I think I'd be most pissed off at that weasely

state legislator who stood at the microphone and, literally snickering, agreed to go along with the Republicans in setting the date for the primary. He was asked, specifically, if he agreed to the date and he said he did. He knew what would happen and he had a chance to protest the date and, instead, chuckled and agreed to move up the primary. That's who I'd be mad at. Sorry I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but the video has been posted here numerous times.

[Sancho]

153. Steve Geller

District 13
400 S. Fed. Hwy.
Hallandale Beach, FL 33009

954-893-5089

Room 228
Senate Office Building
404 S. Monroe St.
Tallahassee, FL 32399

[e-mail]

PLEASE LET HIM KNOW WHAT YOU THINK OF THE VIDEO!

[Iceburg]

81. K&R

[scarletwoman]

82. You know, your state party could have organized a caucus instead.

Primary elections are run by state governments, that's why your legislature was involved. Caucuses are run strictly by the state's party organization.

Maybe for next time, you might want to consider changing to a caucus system and truly have your own control of the process.

sw

[eridani]

237. Yes. A caucus system with universal absentee caucusing for any reason

Maine does it, and with modern databases there is no reason why any state shouldn't be able to do the same.

[Ravy]

83. I agree with you (as another Florida voter).

There was a penalty in the books for what happened, the DNC decided to add to it in Florida's case, for moving a week early and voting AFTER the annoited four.

If the DNC had stuck to the punishment specified, as the RNC did, all would be fine. But they saw the need to go deeper.

Now the Republican's are laughing, and the Obama camp is taking the strict authoritarian view in the issue.

It would really be quite funny if they weren't destroying the party with it.

[Orangepeel]

84. You are mad at the DNC for not choosing their nominee the way that you would like them to.

I suggest that you get involved with the Democratic Party formally, rather than just calling yourself a member of the Democratic Party. Then you can have a say in how your county party, state party and national party choose the candidate that runs under the Democratic Party banner.

If you choose to be a member of an organization, you should follow its rules or work to get the rules changed.

[housewolf]

89. There is an opportunity to make your case to the DNC this Saturday in DC

Can you go? Are you planning on going?

Here's a link for info on making a reservation to get into the proceedings
http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/register-to-attend-rbc-meeting.html


Aside from the issue of who is to blame for this mess, I want to express to you that I am so sorry for what happened and for how it affects all the Florida residents. When I first heard the news report about the DNC disenfranchising the FL & MI votes, I felt that is was such an unjust thing to do. I really feel for you, and know that I would be every bit as angry as you are if it happened to my state.

I hope and pray for a just resolution this weekend. Peace be with you...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

90. I have joined in the petition to the DNC.

I will be there in spirit, if not physically.

Thank you for your kind words. I have my fingers crossed that the right thing will be done, albeit way too late.

[Sancho]

154. There is also a court filing in a Tampa court!

That is truly a scary thing in Florida.

[GihrenZabi]

91. Be angry at your State Government

Why are people angry at the DNC for enforcing rules which were published well in advance, and not the idiot state governments which decided to thumb their noses at said rules?

I bet those state governments are feeling real proud of themselves now...those rebels...wow, it took a lot of courage to get all their primary votes eliminated.

I wish the DNC would push back publicly against the State governments, lay the blame where it belongs, and tell the people of FL and MI "If you don't like this, then vote out your governments, because it's their fault."

[demokatgurrl]

92. Very good post... I recommended it, but I disagree on one thing

I know that, if I lived in Florida, I would have voted. Someone telling me MY vote would not count because of the idiocy of some party honchos would be just enough to get me pissed off enough that I'd vote. I also would (perhaps foolishly) have enough faith in our Democratic system- and even more so in our Democratic party- to think that it would be worked out somehow.

Your target is absolutely correct though. The DNC fucked up BIG TIME, and this is going to be a hell of a mess to straighten out. Although I intend to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is, I am almost convinced we will lose, and I blame a lot of it on this screw up.

The persons who should be penalized are the superdelegates. They agreed- didn't even put up a fight against the Repubs in FL. They should NOT be seated at the Convention and their votes should not count. (By the way I called the DNC months ago about this, and they acted as though I were a nut case).

[smiley_glad_hands]

98. You are delusional, the state party and state dems fucked up. eom

[The Doctor.]

101. You also should educate yourself before slinging blame.

No, the DNC didn't handle things "perfectly", but the rules were clearly violated not by the DNC, but by the Florida legislature.

When a cop says "Drop the gun or I'll shoot.", and you start blasting away, getting shot is your fault, not his.
When the DNC said, "Don't do this or your delegates won't be seated.", and the FL legislature went ahead and did it, they accepted the consequences of, and the blame for their actions.

Read Madfloridian's journal, she's done the best work to clarify the issue. Go get educated;

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

... then you'll know where the blame lies.

[demokatgurrl]

187. THE DNC CREATED THE STUPIID RULE!!!!!

The wrong people are being penalized. You are right, the Democratic state legislators who bent over to the Repubs in Florida are responsible for AGREEING to the rules, and should suffer the consequences. The superdelegates should be barred from the convention. The voters DID....NOTHING...WRONG!!!!! NO..... VOTER..... AGREED.....TO.... THE....STUPID....FUCKING.....SACRED.... HOLY..... RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Doctor.]

196. I agree.

The problem is that the blame doesn't lie with the DNC, Howard Dean, the voters of FL, or Obama.

The bottom line is that only Clinton has decided to reverse her pledge to stick to the rules... and her supporters are just fine with the win-at-all-costs duplicity.

[eridani]

238. The purpose of the rule was to prevent states from deciding that 2008 primaries--

---could be held in 2006 or 2007. Not stupid at all.

[beac]

257. But Hillary Clinton did... so WHY aren't you all pissed at her???

Hmmmmmmm????

[smiley_glad_hands]

95. Why don't you learn how to vote for dems that know how to follow rules.

You're just using the DNC as a scapegoat for the failures of your own state party.

Follow the damn rules already.

[Sancho]

155. Then there should be no delegates from SC, NH, etc...by the rules!

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5465

Check it out!

[The Backlash Cometh]

96. Trust me, you don't know who you should be angry at.

You think you know, but you don't. And the reason why you don't know is because the Florida media isn't able to report the true stories and name the real names or describe the real agendas. So you are left to be used as a useful idiot, directing your anger just where they want you to direct your anger so the Florida power dogs can continue to herd you, to their advantage.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

99. Trust me, I know....

...who to be angry with. I am no "useful idiot." I am an educated voter who voted, and I know exactly who is the party exclusively charged with giving effect to my vote and I know they have not done so.

[smiley_glad_hands]

105. If you are so educated then why do you blame the DNC when it is not their fault?

If you're so educated why do you hate rules?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

200. Lucky guess, but maybe because....

...the DNC took out its punishment on the voters (via the stripping of all delegates and the effective voiding of votes legally cast under federal and state election law) for a dispute it had with state party officials?

In other words, COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.

[yourguide]

110. Considering it has been clearly documented on this board

exactly how and why Florida dem leaders got Florida into this mess...NOT dean, I'm not sure how you can consider yourself an educated voter when you have not been properly educated on this matter.

[The Doctor.]

114. You have delusions of certainty,

and education.

The DNC gave the choice of whether your delegates would be seated or not to the FL legislature.

The FL legislature chose not to have the delegates seated.

Go get educated before slinging blame.

[electron_blue]

102. Do you want to share who the real names are and what the real agendas are?

[smiley_glad_hands]

107. Here ya go.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

[The Doctor.]

97. Please get educated before slinging blame.

[AtomicKitten]

100. The blame belongs to the FL State Legislature, not the DNC.

Even McAullife, former DNC chair and HRC-phyte, when at the helm promised harsh repercussions if states jumped the gun in the primary process. Howard Dean, current DNC chair, expanded the "first" status traditionally afforded only Iowa and NH laid out the groundgame, and FL and MI flipped off the DNC and did their own thing. Breaking the rules has consequences, consequences clearly laid out before the deed was done. Herding cats isn't anybody's job or responsibility, and Clinton's subterfuge of chaos doesn't cloud that one bit.

[gal]

103. The DNC is not the only party punishing these 2 states.

The GOP also penalized these states..where is the outrage there?

If your mad about the punishment let's cover the whole the story not just half. I'm sick of seeing the Democrats take all the heat. So what if the GOP already have the candidate, it's about not wanting to punished right?

Your voice isn't being silenced, the nation has heard nothing but flack about Florida and Michigan. I love my right to vote, but I also understand that it has to be fair to others in the country not just ME. To keep law and order in anything there is rules and you are dependent on others. That is a fact of life, deal with it the same as the other 48 states do.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

188. The outrage is selective, isn't it? nt

[Jen-MI]

204. Because the GOP didn't add to the penality! They followed their own rules!

[smiley_glad_hands]

106. You can find the truth here.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

[rodeodance]

108. Those a one-sided Obama views (cut and pastes)

[smiley_glad_hands]

109. The video of Geller at the Fla legislature is not one sided. eom

[Hippo_Tron]

130. madfloridian, as I recall, became an Obama supporter partly because of the Florida debacle

She was very critical of him this time a year ago, particularly for his speech about merit pay.

[Sancho]

158. You can find the truth, but differ in opinions and values...

I think the facts of the case are "known". I disagree with the DNC on the following...

The DNC allowing exceptions to the "rules".
The DNC enacting harsh penalties against Fl because they were angry.
The DNC enacting penalties different than the GOP.
The DNC allowing this to "go to court".
The DNC punishing voters instead of the FL leadership.
The DNC was willing to compromise, but not on the critical issue of campaigning.

You get the idea, but the DNC is NOT blameless. I have no problem with getting rid of Geller and his attitude. Who should be held "blameless"?

How about the voters who got up on the day that the newspaper announced and voted for their favorite DEMOCRAT! That is the essence of this original post. Who cares about the criminal! Let's deal with the victim.

Who is being punished?

[beac]

258. You Floridians are to blame for electing MORONS to your state legislature.

Period. The End.

[demo dutch]

277. Geller is not in my district, but instead I voted for people like Robert Wexler and Ron Klein

and my very excellent state rep Shelley Vanna

[Sancho]

171. You can get the exact timeline of the bill that changed dates, etc. here:

http://florida-delegates.com/pages/florida-hb537/timeline.php

This includes the defeated amendments to change the date to one that the DNC would accept.

[grantcart]

112. Given that your state leaders not only lied but have continued to lie about their intent

what are you and other Democrats going to do about the leadership that caused this problem.

Oh and don't worry your vote is going to count but it doesn't really count because they jumped the line no one campaigned there and so your vote and Michigan's vote is going to count but everyone knows that it doesn't carry the validity of the states where the candidates actually had to compete for your vote. Your vote will be counted but it will be done last so that you won't have the impact as if you had just left it where it was.

In the end your vote probably will be counted for a full vote but the Republicans in Florida only were counted for 1/2. And yet the Democrats in Florida will still be stirring up resentment about how they were handled because of the machinations of your state leaders.

What are you going to do about that, the con artists that lead your party in Florida that have already sold you down the river, in exchange for their own personal future, regardless of what happens on Saturday?

[SanchoPanza]

206. Nothing

It's easier to squawk at a fabricated adversary, too far to effect outside of futile threats, than to enact meaningful change locally.

[smiley_glad_hands]

115. This thread smells like astroturf. eom

[kerry-is-my-prez]

116. They're all a bunch of assholes - Obama included.....

He could be the "big" person and insist that the Florida votes be counted but he doesn't want them to. There have been several sources that have said that.

It is absolutely suicidal to diss Florida - a huge swing state and leave it to all of these knuckleheads to screw things up.

[smiley_glad_hands]

118. Florida dissed themselves. Obama had nothing to do with it.

Follow the damn rules already.

[sybylla]

126. There's a difference between a primary and an election

A primary is for the sole purpose of establishing a ticket - the candidates who will appear on the ballot for election. The Supreme Court has long ruled that the parties get to decide how their candidates are chosen - end of story.

Your right to participate in a primary ends when the party says it ends. Your vote doesn't have to count. The Florida Democratic Party didn't follow the party rules for choosing a candidate, so Florida Dems lost all say in the process.

Hence, for the millionth time, it is your party leadership and the elected officials in your state who voted to violate the rules. They are the ones who need to be held accountable.

It's really rather simple.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

129. Shouldn't the DNC respect the bedrocks of general elections....

....such as due process of law and equal protection of one's vote, if it wants to be taken seriously when it raises these concerns at a general level? Such as in 2000?

And this is beside the fact that primaries are in fact governed by federal and state election law so there is a public component to them.

[sybylla]

138. I repeat - a primary is not an election. You have no right to participate

unless you follow the rules for participating.

Second, votes don't select candidates, they establish the number of delegates who do.

Primaries are only governed by state and federal election law simply because they are conducted by ballot on days that involve other state primary selections or elections (partisan and non-partisan in the case of my state). The political parties agree to those standards because the primaries are conducted under the auspices of the government election agencies. Who would argue that it isn't as important in a primary as it is in a general election that the integrity of the ballot be protected?

Thirdly, as has been pointed out ad infinitem, the Supreme Court has said repeatedly that political parties - who used to choose their candidates in smoke filled rooms mind you, have the right to choose their candidates for office any flipping way they choose. Fortunately for us, the days of back room deals are over. Fortunately for us political parties have seen the benefits of opening up the process. We participate because our party establishes a way to do so. But we still must adhere to their rules.

[Sancho]

161. Is your description best to put a Democrat in the White House?

Primaries are very useful in today's world...and in today's world we have a right to participate in a primary. Maybe or maybe not a legal right, but a right to pick our government by a fair process. We don't have to ride a horse to work anymore (might be a good idea though) and things are changing (did one of the candidates mention that?).

Simply put, our world changed when Bush was appointed President instead of 8 years of Gore and what a difference it would have made!
The DNC, like all organizations are YOUR organization. "The needs of the few outweigh the need so of the many!" (Spock in Star Trek).

I want to win the White House. I don't want to spend time in court over delegates and primary rules.

This issue is more personality and power than trying to win the election. The "legal" aspects of primaries are changing as we speak. Who should decide the next "rules", members of the Democratic party or Republican judges?

I VOTE for the members!

[sybylla]

215. You have the right to pick your government in an election

not a primary.

And you vote for the members? Who do you think the DNC is, anyway? Some nebulous smoke filled room of party elite? The members of the Democratic party of each state elect delegates to the DNC where, at meetings and conventions, the operations of the party are decided. Do you know who your DNC delegates are? Have you talked to them? Do you know what decisions they make in the course of a year?

You know, when you only know a tenth of the whole story, it's easy to be snookered by bullshit.

[Sancho]

216. You hit the nail on the head! A smoke filled room in this case! Here's why!

I am a registered Democrat. Some of those that I support are "super delegates". I've attended state functions, but not a national convention. I've talked to representatives and delegates. Here's the bull**** from the DNC in this case. Maybe not Dean personally, but the DNC for sure:

First, the DNC had a smoke-filled room decision to include and exclude some states from their "rules!!

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5465

"Ladies & Gentlemen, this whole mess surrounding the state delegations from Florida and Michigan is a result of the Rules & Bylaws Committee of the Democratic National Committee not strictly adhering to the 2008 Delegate Selection Rules for the Democratic National Convention by applying the rules equally and fairly to all states."

Then, the DNC allowed "deals" outside of the rules to govern candidates behavior, and they threatened Florida by writing directly to the FL Democratic Party and said so another smoke-filled room deal with the DNC? Did the DNC intervene in this blackmail?

http://www.fladems.com/page/-/images/makeitcount/20070918_4state_letter.pdf

"Sincerely,
Scott Brennan Jill Derby
Chair, Iowa Democratic Party Chair,
Nevada State Democratic Party
Raymond Buckley Carol Fowler
Chair, New Hampshire Democratic Party Chair, South Carolina Democratic Party"

Then some have accused FL of trying to support Hillary with the change in primary date, but it was the FL Black Caucus that helped change the date! Why does the DNC fail to recognize the interests of the Black Caucus?

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

"There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles."

This whole primary smacks of smoke-filled rooms and behind closed deals at the DNC! Fl has it's share of idiots, but the DNC is not blameless. Believe it or not, a primary is an important part of our system and it should be a legitimate process without "deals".

[SanchoPanza]

207. Instead the DNC chose to respect the bedrock of its own rules, which are Constitutionally protected

As stated in the previous thread on this topic, a national party's right to define the rules that govern their own nominating process trumps the interests of a state and the integrity of its electoral process. State/Federal agencies are responsible for adhering to the 14th Amendment, as well as private organizations that recieve state and Federal funding. The DNC, and RNC, are neither. They established rules, agreed to by the state parties, and have been following them.

[Sancho]

217. See #216 ... read the links...

:spank:

[SanchoPanza]

218. This Nonsense Again?

Your "source" selectively quotes DNC rules for the bulk of his/her post. It's like they get to Rule 11a, and then just stop reading. Oh sure, they have a friend of a friend of a cousin of an uncle who does all sorts of neato research on the arcane details of the DNC Primary Scheduling Rules, who confirm everything they say as the Truth as Handed Down by the Almighty, but they're plainly available on the DNC's own fucking website for everyone to read.

http://www.democrats.org/page/-/pdf/DelegateSelectionRules.pdf

Here's the appropriate section re: 11A and the pre-Feb 5th contests. Specifically, it's Rule 20, Section C, Paragraph 7.

In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state’s delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

Next time, do your own research.

[Sancho]

222. All you are doing is proving that the DNC has a smoke-filled room.

This is simply part of the fudge factor that excuses deals, four-state pledges, and sticking it to the Black caucus? As I've stated many times before, "Rules applied arbitrarily are not rules."

The DNC doesn't follow it's own rules. I'd love for the DNC to have to prove with "clear and convincing evidence" that they took all steps, etc. NONE of the Fl reps. or caucuses discussed what they were doing or why until after the date was law. The DNC reacted to a few leaders, but never understood. Once they figured out the facts, Dean tried to back out, but couldn't get it done. He's still down here trying.

No matter what, it is clear that the DNC applied the "rules" differently to different states, made deals under the table with some and not others, and manipulated all sorts of situations.

I really don't care if you believe it or not. Fl was clear to the DNC what they were doing and why. The DNC did not keep to their own ideals and mission, they punished the wrong party, and they did sneaky things under the table.

[SanchoPanza]

230. You have an interesting interpretation of events.

The RBC heard Selection Plans from the states under discussion, and their reasons for exclusion from 11A. This has all been documented, but the presence of smoke has not been. If your going to make accusations, you'd be best served by backing them up with facts.

Both Iowa and New Hampshire have laws specific to their nominating contests (New Hampshire is a minimum of 7 days before a similar contest, I believe, and Iowa is 8). As a result, they were forced to move their contests up due to the established calendar. Under Rule 11, Iowa would have had their primary on Jan 14th, 5 days before the NV Caucus, when it was mandated by law to be held no later than the 11th. They picked the 3rd because the Republicans had already moved to that date, and it has long been the tradition that both parties hold their contests on the same day. New Hampshire was forced to move up due to the schedule of the South Carolina primary, which sought approval to move their contest up three days back in October.

The RBC concluded that all the states discussed acted in good faith in attempting to comply with the schedule and submitted reasonable Delegate Selection Plans for a new date. The Florida and Michigan parties did neither.

Do. Your. Own. Research.

[Sancho]

233. Exactly what FL did was documented and posted already...

There is no question about what they did or the time line at this point.

We all know that Fl didn't even apply for an early date. We all know why. A year ago the Fl. Demo. Party publicized their reasons.

We all know when, who, and why the primary date was moved. You can see a minute by minute record of the bill, amendments, and discussions of the bill on the record.

I a.) actually talked to two representatives from FL who were in the room b.) obtained the FL staff report on what would happen if the primary date was moved that was given to the representatives for consideration.

Sorry, but I did research that no one else has even touched. None of it really changed the facts.

There is no question that the FL GOP planned to move the date first and that some Fl Leaders went along with it.

There is also no question that discussions with Dean and the DNC caused a reversal of position on moving the date by many Fl legislators. The exact number who still thought moving the date was a good idea is unknown. Without the GOP and after discussions with the DNC, the date would have never moved at that point as an independent Democratic vote, but that was not an option.

At the time of the amendment to reverse the primary date change, a change back to the original date wasn't going to happen in the FL legislature no matter what, because the GOP had loaded the bill. The Black Caucus urged passage of the bill containing the date change even though it meant no visits from Obama because they had to support election reform or the GOP was going to win every election no matter who "won". (There were other MAJOR issues in the bill, too.) Every state legislature (about half a dozen) that I talked to, emailed, or called said the same thing - they had to do what was best for the FL citizens. None from our local delegation cared about rigging a particular candidate's primary. All of them reported some version that the DNC had been less than candid, violated rules, trust, and the mission of the party. Some were more excited about it (Nelson who filed one of the lawsuits). Others thought it was typical politics.

A compromise penalty/resolution was sought if the primary date wasn't changed. That compromise never happened mainly because of the "no campaigning" even though a number of options were discussed, but there was lots of resentment over the blackmail letter sent to FL from the four states as it was clearly a violation of DNC rules/values/intent. The rogue states (as some called them) got away with that by cutting a deal with the DNC and sending the letter, but not officially from the DNC. Several versions of the pledge as sent to delegates by the rogue states were posted on the Fl Demo Party site. I know that one was signed by Edwards so he must have provided it.

As to your "constitutional protections". We know all about that in Florida where we still have thousands of uncounted ballots from 2000 sitting in a warehouse! It may be that a court takes one of these primary lawsuits and goes with it. Several of those filed were sloppy presentations so far as reported by the lawyers, so they haven't really been heard yet. Legal scholars have several "constitutional" theories, but we have no idea what will happen: 1.) there was discrimination or reverse discrimination against black, white, Hispanic, etc. voters in the primary process 2.) there was some "contractual" violation by the DNC/FDP that broke a state or local law 3.) there is an inconsistency between parts of DNC's own rules 4.) there is a conflict between state and federal election laws/process...etc. There have been a few mentions of this on TV and lower court rulings are pretty boring right now. No one knows what the last judge or court might do and I admit that I'm not a lawyer so my guess is as good as what some lawyer told me.

[SanchoPanza]

272. Yes, a minute by minute record is available

State Senator Ring, a Democrat, first proposed the date change and it was jumped on by Republicans in the legislature. But it was also jumped on by Democrats in the legislature. SB1010 was combined with the general bill on April 17th and passed through the committee without a single disenting vote. In fact, the only time a motion to change the date to the original schedule was issued was the "Bramble Bush" incident. The only person within any position of authority who could concievably claim due diligence is Chairwoman Thurman, as she did make several public statements moving against the rescheduling. But the fact remains that they continually refrained from submitting an alternate Selection Plan, which under the rules was permissible up until 30 days prior to the first scheduled contest. The only time the DNC could be said to have violated rules, technically, was in offering Florida and Michigans extensions beyond this date, but the rules give them some leeway.

The notion that the IA/NH/SC/NV letter is some sort of illicit threat is puzzling (though it is a threat, to be sure), since it tracks with the timeline of how the resultant scheduling shifts were made. South Carolina Democrats were indeed concerned that the RBC decision would lack finality and ultimately be ignored, and as such petitioned to move their primary up three days to make sure that they were "First in the South". This occured a month after the mailing of that letter. That the chairs of the respective state parties got together and issued a letter of intent to the FDP to ensure candidate compliance, before they took the steps to move up their contests to physically prevent non-compliance, fearing an overturn of the August decision, is not out of order. I can find no rule stipulating to the contrary.

A National Party's rights are constitutionally protected, and have been for over thirty years. And yes, it does trump the state's obligation to ensure the compliance of a primary contest with state and federal election law, as well as the 14th Amendment. As a private entity they are exempt from these laws, but states are not. Generally a party is forgiving of states that, by law, cannot comply with the rules laid out by national committee, as witnessed by rules governing exemptions. As to the charge that the rules are inconsistent, I've yet to see a specific, credible charge.

As a further note, I am not maintaining that this was done to give particular support to one candidate, if that is what you're thinking. For one, there was no effort by a single camapaign to push for this, as the RBC was almost unanimous in their ruling to strip 100% of the Florida delegates despite the heavy presence of supporters from multiple campaigns. Ironically, the one dissenting voice on the Committee was and is an Obama supporter. Much more likely this was done for the purposes repeatedly outlined by its backers, both Democratic and Republican: To give their state early access to as many campaigns as possible and all the fundraising and networking opportunities that entails.

[Sancho]

274. Your version is ok along with some interpretation. I'm not opposed to that.

I agree. SOME were rogue and wanted an earlier date for glory purposes. Others had different agendas. I have heard that Rubio was the origin of the primary date change. I'm not sure that it matters.

I also don't think that a particular Presidential candidate planned anything.

My take is that SOME (Ring, Geller, etc.) were bad guys and played a role and should be responsible.

Many state representatives were either unconcerned or unaware of all the issues, but became informed once discussions with the DNC started getting more relevant.

I've heard more than once from local delegations that a compromise, revote or something acceptable was possible in May IF campaigning were allowed. That was the objection of most local folks. Who knows since it different happen. Meanwhile, the more loaded up the primary bill became, the harder it was to change.

I'm simply saying that the GOP allowed campaigning, and some compromise by the DNC might have been useful. Maybe advertising and organizing without visits, or only debates, or specified dates? Who knows. Also, I've said for a long time that the culprits from the FL Dem. Party should be punished instead of the voters. The DNC may be legally protected, but I can't see how alienating big states is smart. I'm also not sure if anyone is protected from FL judges.

My biggest concerns are that 1.) a court will do something stupid, and Constitutions don't seem to matter much today 2.) resentment from independents and crossovers will cost us the White House.

I think that I differ with Madfloridian over the "amount" of blame that was due to the DNC (not Dean specifically) and how "harsh" the punishment should be...that is more opinion than disagreement over the history. I'm not sure that we have any big differences over the history. I'm not thrilled with Wasserman, but I'm not as focused on her as much a Madfloridian. I suspect that all the politicians spin and lie.

[Sancho]

286. This is old news and we know that FL's plan was rejected.

So. We know why it was rejected. We know that Fl. did not apply for an early date. (link below) I'm not defending that Fl had a right to an early date. If you think that is the case, then you're not following. There is no question what happened in FL, and we can go through every other state's individual history forever.

The bottom line is that the DNC was really, really pissed at the FDP's Geller, Ring, etc. and tossed the book at Florida. It is also true that the DNC was at least in a grey area, if not allowing under-handed deals, when a subset of states (blackmail is the word I've heard) obtained pledges from candidates and those states then directly tell Florida what to do. The DNC (generically meaning rules committee, etc.) was also punishing some states and allowing exceptions for date violations at their whim for others. Maybe they have a legal right to do that, but it's not likely that most people think that it is a good idea because it smacks of the dreaded smoke-filled room.

A compromise, revote, etc. was not possible in FL because of the ban on campaigning. A date change back to an acceptable date was not possible because of manipulation of the GOP to load up the primary date bill. The bad guys (Geller, Ring, etc.) have not been punished and have actually benefitted in the eyes of those who elect them. This has costs thousand of lost registrations and votes in two big states. It is still costing money with an unknown court involvement. It may cost the White House to lose two big states in a close election. Some think that it prolongs the primary or favors a particular candidate. If you are one of those folks that thinks that a deal is being prevented by Hillary supporters in order to help her effort, then I suppose that means she should get credit for being an astute politician and you should change your support to Hillary. This is not my issue because I'll vote for either nominee happens.

What good has come of this - only that we can say "ha, ha - we followed the rules" when even that is not clear? "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few!" as we know is the ultimate democratic Vulcan law that clearly overrides the US Constitution in the Federation. (Is that good enough research?)

Florida's own party website was pretty clear a year ago:

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

If anyone doubted the controversy over the "four state pledge", etc., it only takes time to go to the archives and download the staff reports and stuff. Most didn't pay attention to it, but it was on the minds of those affected quite some time ago. Some of those links are on the same website (above). Yes, there is spin that makes Geller look better than he was, but a penalty that punishes the voters (which was the original idea of this post) is wrong when the guilty go free. If you want to assign some kind of percentage blame to Ring/Geller/DNC/FDP/voters etc. you would have to say that the voters hardly did anything wrong. Why would the voters have anticipated a primary date change and elect different people if it had never happened before? Why would the voters care if they voted one week later?

[eridani]

240. Nope. The DNC delegates are elected by state party members

To be a state party member who gets to vote for a DNC member, you need to be elected by county or other district Dem organizations. That means it's all up to people who are active in the Dem party even in odd-numbered years. All the little red hens that baked the bread get to eat it.

[Sancho]

288. You should read more and fuss less...

You have posted something that is completely off-target. The issue of Rule 20, Section C, Paragraph 7 that you cite clearly explains what a rule breaker has to do to "prove" good faith, etc.

The problem is that states other than Florida moved the date, not how or what process for punishment exists if a violation occurs. No one doubts that a process is there nor that it was applied to Florida.

If "exceptions" are allowed, no matter what application or plan is made to entertain the exceptions, then the rules aren't worth anything. Some states were allowed to move dates and it doesn't matter what convolutions that they went through to obtain that change. You either have a date or you don't. If you open the door for some, then you get manipulations, deals, arm-twisting, coalitions, smoke-filled rooms, and messes like the one you have now in MI and FL.

[eridani]

239. No. Why should Repubs get to vote in Dem primaries? n/t

[LynneSin]

131. You should be angry but at your State's DNC

You know, this whole RFK assasination comment that Hillary made had me doing a lil research. Since RFK's run in 1968 our primaries have moved back 2 months from mid-March to the first week in January.

The DNC set out rules to the state for when their primaries could be held and your state's democratic party felt that for some reason they were better than 48 other states in this country.

To make matters worse, in Michigan, all the democratic candidates except one (Hillary) vowed to not put their name on the Michigan primary ballot. So in Michigan there were people who had no choice except vote for Hillary.

I know you're angry but you can't blame the DNC when the DNC gave Florida options and Florida Democratic Party did a big "FUCK YOU" to the National Democratic party.

Don't worry, Florida will be seated - they're waiting until Hillary concedes and this will all resolve itself.

[Hola]

132. the leaders

"When I bring up the fact that the DNC's decision to strip my state's delegates due to the actions of a few leaders constituted a collective punishment on all the Democratic voters on the state, I typically get talk about how we live in a representative democracy and we are subject to the will of our elected officials. And that my only means of recompense should be to be angry at my state leaders"

Correct!

This is why we need Change this cycle. So that the elected leaders are responsible to the will of the people and not to special interests. Vote Change!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

139. Elections without campaigning=

[SwampG8r]

140. A true Floridian's perspective: Why I am ultimately most angry at Hillary for the current mess

what unmitigated self serving crap
its a primary held by the political party
follow the god damn rules
you were not disenfranchised unless your vote was stopped in a GE
hillary has tured this into a hornetsnest to profit herself and no other
she ddnt care about your vote before the election
and guess what?
she wont care after it either
unless it goes against her

'good faith effort ' to stop the vote in the state house?
nope the DLC run hillary people went 115-1 with the GOP

stop grasping at straws and answer the question that you fear most
are you a democrat or a clintonian?
thats what scares you people the most
losing the moral high ground of the Dem party
you may actually have to admit that what you have supported will be exposed as lip service
so you could feel good about yourself while enjoying all the perks
you dont want us to see what you have been all along and you dont want to look and see for yourselves either
support hillary if you must but do not pimp florida again to do it

[Sancho]

163. That is simply wrong..

Hillary (nor any other candidate) had nothing to do with starting this. Now both Hillary and Obama will do what is best for their campaign.

[Zodiak]

202. I disagree

The biggest pushers for this whole fiasco were the DLC people, Hillary's political allies....there is great advantage to Hillary for having that primary date moved up. Name recognition was a big driver in those early primaries, which is exactly why early primaries are held in small states like Iowa where the voters can get to know them

Florida trying to rush the schedule puts undue influence on the most recognizeable candidate with the most money. At the time, it was Hillary.

They knew what they were doing, and if things went south, they could always argue about the "disenfranchised voters" placed firmly in Hillary's pocket early in the process.

By the way, Hillary's supporters voted FOR the stripping of these delegates on the RBC. You would think they had something in mind.

[Sancho]

212. That's not the way the reps. who voted saw it...

The two from my delegation were Edwards and Obama supporters. They both didn't have any clue which of five or six candidates would end up in Florida (not to mention a dozen GOP candidates) at the time the primary was moved one week.

Kathy Castor has always been an Obama supporter. You're simply making something up that has no direct validity as far as I can determine.

I wouldn't be surprised if any of the candidates had early supporters in the Florida group. What's new? Frankly, everyone here in my circles has known who Obama was for quite some time. I suspect that with all the retired folks, Hispanics, unions, and health care that a campaign here would have been fun, but likely Obama would have been third behind Hillary and Edwards. We'll never know. Notice below the reference to the Black Caucus! Hmmm.....doesn't sound like Hillary support to me?!!

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

This was posted a YEAR ago on the Florida Democratic Party web page:

"The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?
Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.

Who cares about the paper trail?
Floridians do. Our state has had far too many election controversies. A verifiable paper trail for elections is something Democrats have fought for since the election debacle of 2000. It is a groundbreaking change in a state that has no standardized voting and a long record of disastrous elections. In fact, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) continues to investigate Florida’s District 13 Congressional election in which touch-screen voting machines lost 18,000 ballots in the most Democratic part of the district - putting a Republican in Congress by less than 400 votes, instead of an accomplished Democratic woman who worked her way from bank teller to bank president before running for Congress.

Why can’t you just change the primary date?
Unfortunately, Florida Democrats are outnumbered almost 2 to 1 in the Legislature. They are an extremely hard-working and committed group, but to change a law that the Speaker of the House has made a priority is nearly impossible."

[Zodiak]

220. I am talking about the Rules and Bylaws committee

...the ones who stripped all of the delegates. Packed to the hilt with Hillary's supporters, and they all voted for the stripping of the delegates.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/22/1108/27571

But if you like, here is Wasserman Schultz pushing for it last year...she's DLC, and she even rationalizes that they can just bully the nominee later.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/us/politics/24florida.html?ref=politics

[Sancho]

223. The number of delegates didn't matter, and especially if you support Obama!

The internal staff report for the Fl Democratic Party even before the vote to move the date made it clear that the only thing Fl was interested in was campaigning. The "four states" had already blackmailed Florida, and the DNC had already said that a deal (holding caucuses or accepting 50% delegates for example) still would NOT allow campaigning. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It was not Schultz that took campaigning off the table.

How in the hell would the DNC denying campaigning in Florida help Obama? The Clinton's have been here for years. Obama is the unknown. Right now you see the problem nationally that Obama has with the "base" and the total number of voters in closed primary states! NOT campaigning in Florida hurt Obama more than any other candidate! If he had a chance to win this state, he'd have to be here. As is is, the African American base and caucus is now pissed at the DNC and Obama's pledge to not campaign here. I doubt he can win a general election here now, but who knows if he gets on the stick.

It would only HELP Obama to campaign here. The DNC took that option away from the beginning, so the Fl Black Caucus and most other Fl Democratic state legislators did the best they could to represent the best interests of their voters. Period. The loss of delegates was irrelevant with the GOP holding a debate in St. Petersburg, Gov. Crist flying Mc Cain around the state for fund-raisers, and the GOP sending an army of people out to get new registrations.

So what if Schultz is a Hillary supporter? Castor is an Obama supporter. All the candidates have some super delegates and supporters working for leverage for their person and I don't doubt that Schultz would be one. The big screw up occurred back when there were still 5 Democratic candidates when the DNC allowed an out-of-rules deal to prevent campaigns in Florida. I've never denied the contributions and bad judgment of some Fl Leadership. I don't know Schultz well and Geller was pretty stupid on the video. I've have positive personal reactions to Thurman, but she lost control on this one. Nelson is a mixed bag at best. All of them played a part in some of this mess.

You should call Dean and tell him to get a better primary rotation. Several were proposed years ago: rotating who goes first, all on one day, picking the order based on the last election results, etc. No more under the table deals would be useful.

[Zodiak]

271. That was incomprehensible

I never said a word about campaigning, which is half of your screed.

And Nelson is not a mixed bag...he is DLC and with one of the worst progressive voting records in the Senate.

And you should know damned well that Dean does not determine punishments...he is the chairperson. Punishiments are doled out by the Rules and Bylaws Committee, which is packed with Hillary supporters.

Dean also doesn't set the rotations...that is also handled by the RBC. Once again, full of Hillary supporters.

You never addressed that point. You just moved the goalposts to the campaigning issue.

[Sancho]

275. Well, I was trying to say that campaigning was an important issue here...not

just the number of delegates.

Nelson is not my favorite. I've written and called him regularly. He has managed to keep a seat for the Democrats, he answers letters and emails, and he has been on the right side of SOME local environmental and educational issues. I would not pretend he was a progressive democrat.

Ok, I'm not "against Obama", but IF Hillary is a good enough politician to "pack the committees" then Obama is learning from the master and he needs to get competitive or get out of the way. Remember, you said it. All I want is a Democrat in the White House. I don't care the race or gender. Are you saying that Obama is not a good enough player to be in the game?

I didn't say that Dean was king and decided everything. He's down here now as a potted plant.

[Sancho]

225. Technically, Obama got away with running ads.

I saw them on TV here. All the candidates attended fund-raisers. Supposedly, they were "national ads", but it was still a potential issue. If Obama had won, I'm sure that Edwards or Hillary would have protested. As is was, they let it go.

[Tatiana]

143. I am wondering how you count the votes in a flawed election.

It wasn't a fair election to begin with. Florida did not receive the OK to move their date. And even then, if all the Democrats in FL had offered and voted for an amendment for an approved early date, EVEN IF THE MEASURE WAS DEFEATED, at least the Dems would have shown "good faith" and the results would be legitimate.

[Sancho]

164. In Florida we often count votes in "flawed elections"!

If fact, I can't think of any election in decades that wasn't fouled up. I hope you watched "Recount" on HBO.

[demo dutch]

282. It's the way they "do business" in FL! For Dems and Repugs alike there's no difference!

[Elmagoo]

156. Who cares?

Its florida...

[quaker bill]

157. A true floridian's reply

I voted as well. My voice was not silenced by the DNC. My vote was counted, just as yours was. My vote simply does not qualify for convention delegates because the FL Democratic Party refused to comply with some fairly simple rules.

The rules were clear and well established in advance. If the FL Democratic party wanted us represented at the convention, all they needed to do was make a serious attempt to comply with them. Had they done so, even if the Republicans had eventually over ruled them, our votes would have qualified for delegates.

Further the DNC offered cash to help the FL Dems run a contest that would qualify for convention delegates. FL Dems not only refused, but then filed a lawsuit against the party, taking time, resources and money away from the fight in which we all should actually be engaged, except for their refusal to play by the rules.

Now our party, the FL Democratic party, compounds the error in an attempt to save face for the jerks that made this mess, our "leadership". This only takes more time and resources away from the fight and for little or no purpose, as the courts have already held that the DNC has the inherent right to make and enforce rules for its nomination process.

Let's put an end to this stupidity, settle the matter, win the election, and find new leadership of the FL Dems.

[Sancho]

169. This is all correct. I would only suggest that one thing is missing...

I think it was inappropriate for candidates to miss out running campaigns in Florida. I think that is detrimental to the goal of winning the election regardless of the nomination.

(I know that some state representatives would have been willing to change the date and avoid the penalties, but we'll never know how many were subsumed by the omnibus legislation that included the primary date. Even then, the DNC would not likely have been satisfied at a certain point.)

It is worth looking at the FL Party explanation, even if you don't believe it all.

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

[quaker bill]

172. As most flacks would,

they make a sympathetic case. However, the truth, as I read it at the time, was not quite so comforting. In fact, as they point out, the FL Democratic Party did have to lobby their members to get them to oppose the bill. This is because a considerable number of them initially supported the move, some for clear and specific candidate favoring purposes.

The notion that republicans held them hostage with optical scan voting equipment money is probably accurate, but our position of weakness on this issue seems overstated in a self-serving manner. After the Ft. Myers (Katherine Harris' HR seat) fiasco, there was considerable motivation on the part of the republican majority to move a bill for optical scan - paper trail voting. Had the Dems all voted no, the bill would probably have passed anyway, and if it hadn't, then it could have been renegotiated to assure more democratic minority votes.

If there are rules, then they need to be enforced. While I will grant that preventing the campaign here did the overall goal no service, it is also likely that if a campaign was held here, the results would have been different than those obtained.

Further, the candidates agreed to suspend campaign efforts here based on the assurance that the contest would award no delegates. Ethically, in a democracy, one does not change the election rules after the results are in, particularly under these circumstances.

A settlement needs to be reached. This settlement should, and I think must include a committment to dismiss all pending litigation, with prejudice (so it cannot be refiled), and an agreement by all parties to accept the settlement as final in a manner that waives all rights to appeal the settlement at the convention. A penalty should remain, my personal preference would be seating the FL delegates, but stripping the FL supers of all voting rights, for their role in this mess and for litigating against the party.

[Sancho]

173. I would agree completely with a settlement such as you describe.

A have no problem with doing away with SD's or some such penalty.

I have no idea which candidates would have benefitted from a campaign. Likely someone would have made another gaff that produced a banner headline.

I was hoping for the registrations, party swaps, and organization that would come from the candidates running around the state.

[beac]

259. Hey, guess what? I live in a state that's been solidly red for the past twenty years you

wouldn't even know there was a GE going on unless you checked your calendar. NEITHER Presidential candidate would visit here b/c the outcome was certain. No ads on TV either and barely a flyer in the mail.

Get over yourself, Florida! You've been in the limelight far too long. Focus your energy on cleaning your own house before you pile on the DNC. You voted all the idiots that caused this mess into office. Learn to use your precious right to vote a little more wisely.

[Sancho]

267. You're preaching to the choir and getting mad at Florida is not useful.

I have done what I could for the last few years and recently helped elect two NEW state representatives and one US Representative in Florida. I'm doing what I can for Christine Jennings now. I'm not wealthy, so volunteering is usually what I can do. Primaries should include visits to all states and it is a problem of the system if your state doesn't get to see everyone up front and personal. Instead of getting over it, we ought to all insist on a better process. Disney World is enough of a limelight for Florida. I'd prefer an election that wasn't ripped off by the GOP.

I'm proud to say that my county recently achieved more Democratic registrations than Republican for the first time in many years. I hope it makes a difference in November.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Representatives/details.aspx?MemberId=4392

http://www.flsenate.gov/Legislators/index.cfm?Members=View+Page&District_Num_Link=016&Submenu=1&Tab=legislators&chamber=Senate&CFID=87542032&CFTOKEN=62408648

http://castor.house.gov/

[quakerboy]

177. I do not care to have my vote minimized and discounted

Just because you want to be angry. My state did what it was supposed to do. Now you want me to give up my relevance so that your vote, which disenfranchised MANY of your fellow Floridians, can be counted, hell or high water, because Hillary MUST WIN. Hell no. If you cared, you would have spoken up months ago, you would have camped at your local Party office untill they agreed to hold new elections, making sure that everyone had the chance and knowledge to vote.

[Sancho]

183. I did those things! (not for Hillary or any particular candidate)

-I visited two state representatives and helped organize a well-attended lunch at USF with one rep. a year ago in St. Pete to explain what was happening.
-I called and emailed a bunch of state representatives, some key committee people, Florida leadership, and federal office holders and Gov. Crist. (I got a letter back from Sen. Nelson who filed one of the lawsuits against the DNC).
-I've done what I could to help get people registered in Florida, and my county now has more Democrats registered for the first time in decades!
-I've done all I could to get new people elected here as a volunteer to local campaigns and I'm supporting Christine Jennings now.
-A bunch of us have raised hell about this for a year! I'd guess that DUer's in Fl are pretty active for the most part. I'll bet there were DUer's at Obama's rally last week where he was introduced by Kathy Castor who is one of the new people we just elected.
-I'm not going, but there is a protest and court case over the primary votes in Tampa today! I don't have any idea if it is organized by Hillary folks, but it wasn't reported that way to me. In fact, the most organized local protesters clearly state that they don't advocate any particular candidate.

http://www.floridademandsrepresentation.org/

"March 8, 2008, a group of concerned voters got together in Palm Harbor, FL and initiated a strategy to organize a statewide petition drive. In less than two weeks we received major coverage from the St Pete Times on our effort. FDR is not funded by any campaign, candidate, party or organization."

-BTW, Gov. Crist shares our concern (ha, ha) as he campaigns in Florida with McBush.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

210. How is your vote being "minimized and discounted"?

It will count just as much as it always did. It's just that my vote will count too, as it should because I'm not the one the DNC should be blaming for their intraparty disputes.

Following your logic, anyone who voted in Florida in 2000 who managed to punch out all the chad in the ballot would have had their vote "minimized and discounted" if voters who didn't align the ballot correctly and as such only had a hanging chad or a dimple chad also had their votes counted (as they should). That's nonsense.

And I am speaking for all Florida Democratic voters who voted, not just for voters of a particular candidate. They all deserve to have their vote count for something.

[quakerboy]

219. But you leave out all

votes who were told "it dosn't count, don't waste your time vote" and who listened. If you had popularly forced a re-vote or equivalent, I would have a lot more sympathy. But instead you line up to blame the rest of the country for the problems caused by YOUR state's chosen officials. Who ARE doing what they are doing for the benefit of a particular candidate not that of the voters.

Setting that aside, you don't think that my state could have "counted more" if we had moved up our election and had it, say, the day before New Hampshire? Or even the day after SC? That is what your state did. And given that you outnumber us here, your proportional impact by doing so was even greater than ours would have been. And it was done in such a way as to handycap some candidates, benefit others, and disenfranchise many Florida Voters.

[Sancho]

227. If the DNC would have allowed campaigning, there may have been a deal.

There was no need to fight a losing fight to please the DNC so that the prize was delegates. Unless the DNC allowed a complete process with campaigning it was a tainted effort anyway. If you want to handicap candidates, take away their opportunity to talk to the voters face-to-face so that the voters can decide! Just like everyone else, Florida wanted to see the candidates in their own back yard.

[quakerboy]

232. If the FL DP would have made arraingments to comply with the rules

There would be no need of a deal, and the candidates could have campaigned to their hearts content. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes, and there are more ways to take a vote than merely to make a deal with the republics, breaking your own party rules. Other states have found ways, and there is no reason FL couldn't have done the same. Except one. Once the results were in, one side liked them, and has been pushing to set the rules aside so as to keep them, refusing to allow any progress that might otherwise have been made. And that is where we are now.

[Sancho]

261. I think that is where the problem occurred...

All the rhetoric aside, at least a number of Fl legislators WERE willing to make a deal to accept a penalty or do what they could to comply despite an amazingly difficult GOP opposition. That was evident on the 2007 FDP website and confirmed for me when talking with reps. a year ago.

All the "offers" had a dead end (if you look at the FDP websites, reports, timelines) from a year ago. It was not just a matter of setting a second date or holding an expensive caucus if the GOP was determined to tie tax referendums, paper trails, etc. to the date of the Republican primary where turn out was critical. All the discussions had pluses and minuses. The bottom line that turned off most deals was the "no campaigning" while the GOP was campaigning.

It is simply not true that only "one side" (if you mean Hillary) has been pushing for setting the rules aside. Some Fl folks are clearly Hillary supporters, and likely the demographics here explain why she does well here. Do you think that the Black Caucus was going for Hillary when they voted to move the primary date? Why was Kathy Castor introducing Obama at a rally last week? Yes, Kathy is a female name! In fact, there are examples of supporters of all the candidates going back to when 5 were actively debating. I'm also sure there are Obama supporters who haven't announced support yet.

The DNC put a stop to campaigning regardless of different penalties accepted by FL because of the four state pledge. At that point, the number of delegates was not going to matter and Obama had no chance to come to Fl to improve his position (if that is what some want). To observe that all candidates do what is best for their campaign is obvious, and all of them use whatever leverage that they can. Obama would have been well-served in Fl to break the pledge or ask to get out of it because he was the one who needed to campaign here. We don't know what was said behind closed doors.

A year ago, virtually all the state representatives that spoke to us at lunch in St. Pete, emailed or responded to calls, or provided statements locally had no interest or commitment to any particular candidate. There were a few early exceptions. They almost all wanted the entire set of candidates to campaign in Fl along side the army of Republicans visible in every town and at televised debates at Mahaffee Theater in St. Petersburg. The FDP stated up front that they were unable to negotiate a deal because campaigning was off the table, not just because a particular candidate was favored.

Link repeated from FDP from 2007: http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

[Sancho]

285. Hmmm...I think we're going in circles here. Yes, punish the bad guys!

If Ring or Geller or others were out of line, I'm all for tossing them in Tampa Bay. What happened here, is that the DNC wanted to make an example and ended up shooting themselves in the foot:

because the "bad guys" get all kinds of air time and are even local heros to their voters.
because Florida lost out to the GOP on getting the independents and cross-overs and new registrations while the GOP had open season.
because this is in court which cost money and may end up in some weird conclusion.

Simply matching penalties with the GOP (50% delegates lost and move on) would have made sense.
A revote or caucus would have made sense.

It cannot possibly help win the White House by excluding Democratic candidates from two large states.
The word that I get straight from the state folks is that the lack of a "deal" had nothing to do with support for a candidate. It had to do with the DNC ban on campaigning.

BUT, let's pretend that you are correct and that Hillary had the political savvy and foresight and skill to anticipate a tough election and load up a committee with her followers? Clearly, she's a better politician in that case and deserves the nomination. Is that what you are saying? I don't believe that is the case, because I see both candidates doing all they can to win, and sometimes one or the other has an edge, but that is what I would conclude if you are right.

[Sancho]

179. One good thing (maybe?); a few more threads like this & I'll reach 1000 by Nov.

thanks for the post PeterU !

:dem:

[DemVet]

180. "Count Every Vote"....yeah, right.

Howard Dean should resign.

[mistertrickster]

184. Call the waambulance. Look if you want a real primary, organize and pony up the money

to have another one that counts.

This seemed to be too much to ask of Florida Dems.

You can't follow the rules, not our problem.

And quit trying to make it into our problem.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

186. You had me up until "They at least have the decency to be fighting for me"

Your state party officials are NOT fighting for you. The time for them to do that was long ago. Instead, they chose to collude with the GOP and move the primary up in defiance of the rules.

It's also very telling that you don't care much about the people who didn't vote that day because they knew their vote wouldn't count, as you wring your hands over the injustice of people who did vote being disenfranchised. There's more than one way to disenfranchise someone, and telling people their vote doesn't count is one of the more effective ones. You'd have a little more credibility with me if you weren't so sneeringly dismissive of those people.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

197. Hey, they say my votes should be counted.

The DNC up to this point says my votes should not be counted.

It's a no brainer as to who is currently arguing in my interest.

The state guys may have screwed up, but at least they are arguing for the right thing in the end. And as I've said over and over again, a person can be right for all the wrong reasons, but in the end, they are still right (if only coincidentally so).

As for your second point, anyone who chose not to vote did so at their own peril. All I can say is the polls were open on that day and they weren't blocking Democrats from coming in and voting. (And while you could make an argument for Michigan, in Florida all the candidates were on the ballot.) I knew that the DNC had moved to strip the delegates, and that the state party was disputing that. I went to the polls anyways hoping that the DNC would recognize the error of their ways and count my vote.

Voting is a right. However, when dealing with rights, sometimes one has to act affirmatively to invoke and preserve that right. Otherwise, the right can be viewed as being waived. If there is a dispute about whether or not your vote will be counted but you can vote, you vote. You vote then and ask questions later. That gives you standing to complain and say you did vote but your vote was not counted. But you cannot count a vote that never was. It is pretty simple logic.

And if you are indeed correct in your statement that "here's more than one way to disenfranchise someone, and telling people their vote doesn't count is one of the more effective ones", then that's a beef that you have to take up with the DNC, because the DNC is the party here who told people their vote wouldn't be counted. (And that is a shameful chapter in this party's history.)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

201. Your concern is selective, as usual.

You don't seem to care about the Republican voters who were punished. Remember them? They got half their delegates stripped too. And you don't care about all the people who didn't vote that day, having been told their vote didn't count, whether or not all the candidates were on the ballot. Nope, the only voters who matter to PeterU are the Democrats who voted that day, in the hopes that party leaders in FL would be able to whine and wheedle or strongarm the DNC to get their way.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

208. I'm not a member of the Republican Party...

...and I like to have my own house in order first before all others, so not to be a hypocrite. And the sad fact is (and I really hate to say it), the Republicans frankly acted more wisely from the get-go. They only removed half the delegation, which the DNC had the option of doing but choose instead to go nuclear and remove all of the delegates. Now, I'm not wild about seating only half the delegation, I still think it is punitive on the voters, but at least in that situation there is still some representation at the convention, and the state has some say in the nomination process. So I'll accept that as a valid compromise to settle the issue.

And indeed the half-delegation compromise may be the option that comes out of Saturday's meeting. But I don't understand why that road wasn't just taken in the first place to avoid all this mess? Why did the DNC shoot itself in the foot by instead proclaiming all delegates would be struck? Maybe the thought process was to "send a message" about breaking sacred DNC rules on moving primaries back a week, but in the end, the only message that was sent by the DNC was that the DNC was willing to throw the baby (the voters) out with the bathwater (the state officials).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

213. Then as a member of the Democratic Party, you abide by the DNC rules.

You can't have it both ways like you are trying to do here. You can't credibly say you're a Democrat and talk about getting our own house in order, while at the same time demanding the ability to break the rules with no consequences, while hiding behind righteous indignation over the sanctity of the vote. It's extortion and that's exactly what FL and MI are trying to do.

Furthermore, your own argument was that the people who didn't vote in FL or MI deserve no sympathy because they had the opportunity to do so. Therefore, using your own rationale, no voters were punished. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I'm just pointing out what is consistent with your own words. Delegates are a different matter. Both pledged and super delegates are elected party officials. As such, they are beholden to the party rules, and if those rules are violated it is the DNC's prerogative to determine what the consequence should be.

[Sancho]

224. There was one BIG difference between the GOP and DNC reactions!

The GOP campaigned in Florida. Democrats did not. Which democratic candidate did that hurt the most? Would McCain even be the nominee now if there had been a joint campaign (remember our Gov. was one of his first supporters).

That was a big difference in "punishment".

[beac]

260. Voting in a primary is NOT A RIGHT.

Are you REALLY that uninformed??????

[SeaLyons]

189. K&R

[jasmine621]

190. The DNC has just nullified any legitimate claims of "stealing" the 2000 election.

Not counting the votes is not counting the votes no matter who does it.

[iamthebandfanman]

191. did you say something?

all i heard was a baby crying.

[JackORoses]

195. I see you are competing for your own Squirrel Award. Congratulations

[muryan]

205. FL/MI will not be stripped of all delegates when all is said and done

However it will be awarded full delegates because it broke the rules. People who are screaming to count all the votes!!!!!11!!!11111 and about voter disenfranchisement really haven't been paying attention to the reality that everyone (DNC included) wants to seat both delegations and thats why they are having the rules and bylaws meeting

[Political Heretic]

221. I don't like it when responsibility is deflected. Florida is responsible for Florida.

It broke the rules. All anger should be directed there.

[flvegan]

231. Oooh...speaking ill of Dr. Dean and the rulemakers. Tsk tsk.

When democracy is dictated by rules made by pseudo private entities, we lose that democracy.

[davidpdx]

241. After Saturday it's going to be a moot point bitching about this

Florida and Michigan will be seated in some way or another (no it won't be a full seating so forget that) and the situation will be resolved. I'm sure some will still go on bitching about it claiming they were disenfranchised because certain people didn't get their way.

[Sancho]

263. Maybe, but once courts are involved you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

If lawsuits are continued, there is always a chance for something crazy to happen (especially down here in fantasy land.)

[beac]

242. You knew your vote in the illegal primary was rubbish when you cast it.

No sympathy here.


Use your next legitimate vote to get rid of the Florida Dems who caused this mess.

[Sancho]

264. Look at what Fl voters were being told in 2007 before the primary.

http://www.makeitcountflorida.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/

It was not clear what was going to happen to the primary votes, but because of all the other referendums the turnout was record breaking. All candidates in Fl were on the ballot. Most reports indicated that a resolution was being attempted, and we should vote.

Of course, in Florida we are familiar with votes that don't count. This issue has made two groups MORE popular in Florida: the "heros" (to many Floridians) are the Fl Democrats who "caused" the mess and the GOP which has gained lots of ground with independents while the DNC fights with itself.

IF this issue means "enforcing the rules" and losing in November, then expect a few "I told you so's" on the very depressed DU. If Obama loses both Michigan and Florida to McCain over this issue, then this may go down as super-dumb Saturday in the history of the party as McCain is sworn in.

[seabeyond]

269. but people are willing to deny all the coters that didnt go out, because their vote wouldnt count

IF the voters of florida and michigan chose not to vote for obama, then i will place the blame on hillary. she has promoted, and her people have promoted this being obamas fault. it isnt. it was a dishonest campaign for the clintons and it worked on the emotions of those state voters. she has pumped the hate in dishonesty. she could have addressed the florida and michigan issue without making obama the "bad guy". THAT would have been presidential, responsible and at least, the very least, honest

it isnt the dnc, it isnt obama, it isnt even the fools that changed the primary cause they wanted a voice in the race

it is hillary that has promoted a lie to gain a vote at the expense of the democrats. in this whole thing, the hillary and supporters have shifted blame everywhere but where it belongs. on their shoulders.

[Sancho]

273. That's not true here in Tampa...

Obama has a good following, Castor is his supporter. Obama could have dropped the pledge and campaigned in Florida! If a frog had wing it wouldn't bump it's ass. Both candidates simply want to win, but Hillary has nothing to do with this any more than all candidates have leveraged whatever they can...

Any one who didn't vote can't blame Obama. He has money to campaign. He needs the voters in Florida. I'm just as supportive of Obama as Hillary or ANY other Democrat. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, go ahead. Hillary has proven good support and so has Obama.

I'm not into "candidate bashing" or "Hillary bashing" or "Obama bashing". None of them are perfect. I want a Democrat in the White House. That's it.

[demo dutch]

278. Not true in South Florida either!!!! ( Mami-Dade, Ft. Lauderdale-Broward & Palm Beach!)

Those are the Dem strongholds in FL!

[Sancho]

292. So you are correct, Hillary is the better politician? Smarter and tougher?

You said it, I didn't. I'm voting for the Democrat. You have just justified why Hillary would be a better candidate in a general election.

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

266. mad at dnc, not the people that purposely broke rules knowing your vote wouldnt count

that makes no intellectual sense what so ever. cannot even be spun to make sense.

[demo dutch]

279. Fuck the DNC & Fuck the Rules, I want my vote counted period!!!!!!!!!!!

[seabeyond]

284. and fuck all the people that didn't vote cause it was clear it was illegitimate

and the vote wouldn't count

my two year olds never threw such tantrums

[demo dutch]

276. As a Floridian, I agree and I want my vote counted FOR ONCE!!!!!!

[redqueen]

287. A "true" floridian, huh? That's cute.

Real cute.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

289. That I am.

Glad to know that it is cute in your opinion.

[redqueen]

290. I'm sure you are.

madfloridian is another floridian... a "true" one as well... and I'll go with her logic rather than the convoluted BS from those who refuse to accept reality, thanks.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

291. Anyone who sits by and argues their own vote should *not* be counted...

...well, to paraphrase Natalie Maines, I am ashamed to say that person is from Florida.