Obama's Great Uncle Was A Member Of The 89th Infantry Division That Liberated The Ohrduf Camp

[malik flavors]

May 27, 2008
Categories: Barack Obama

Obama's World War II history


Earlier, the Republican National Committee pounced on Obama's improbable statement that an uncle had served in the unit that liberated Auschwitz.

In fact, campaign spokesman Bill Burton says, his great uncle was a member of the 89th Infantry Division that liberated the Ohrduf camp, part of Buchenwald and according to the Holocaust Museum, the first concentration camp liberated by U.S. troops.

The soldier in question, Burton said, is Obama's grandmother's brother, who's still alive.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Obamas_World_War_II_history.html

[movonne]

1. Thank you...

[JimGinPA]

2. Could You Please Not Try To Dispute RW Talking Points With Facts...

K&R

[ClassWarrior]

35. .

[roguevalley]

64. what an awful burden for survivor and liberator to carry forever.

his family is so interesting.

[Wizard777]

127. In Nuremberg. Our soldier made the people of the town give the victims

of the camp there a proper burial. They still hate us for that to this very day. Our boys in green made the towns people confront what they had allowed their government to do in their name. They made them get their hands dirty cleaning up the mess they allowed the government to make. That is the precise point I place the begining of democracy in Germany. The people cleaning up the mess their government made. Are you guys ready to get your hands dirty? Even with all the tireless fighting and resisting we here have done. I still have to ask. Are you ready to get your hands dirty? Because we have a lot of cleaning up to do.

[jordi_fanclub]

154. Let me show you a picture to help and complete your thoughts...

[cliffordu]

98. Really, How could you??

:rofl:

[madrchsod]

104. kind`a makes some look foolish....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. That's entirely different

for some reason.

[2rth2pwr]

4. Is Ohrduf a different name for Auschwitz?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Pretty much.

:shrug:

[nxylas]

27. Actually no

It is hard to shake off the suspicion that Obama is substituting the name of a better-known death camp for rhetorical effect. But for a Clinton supporter to bash him for "misremembering" is pretty hilarious (but hardly surprising, considering the mileage they got out of a simple slip of the tongue when he said "57 states" instead of 47).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Are you serious?

Are you actually suggesting that Obama is trying to trick people and take credit for his uncle liberating Auschwitz because Buchenwald isn't good enough?

[nxylas]

36. Obama's a writer as well as a politician

The comic book writer Denny O'Neil once quoted his wife in an interview as saying that she'd never heard a writer tell a story exactly the way it happened. It's not that they deliberately set out to mislead, it's just an almost subconscious desire to make the story sound the best it possibly can. As a writer myself (albeit not a successful one), I can relate to that impulse.

Of course that's just a suspicion. It could have been a simple getting the name wrong incident, like the town in Florida that got Freepers and Hillaroids alike doing the tizzy dance.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. "As a writer myself (albeit not a successful one)"

Yeah, don't quit your day job.

[nxylas]

162. Awww, you hoyt my feelings

But I forgive you :hug:

[cali]

81. Family histories almost invariably become somewhat distorted

when they're rooted in the oral tradition.

[JDPriestly]

114. Yes. Obama not only heard this third hand

(He probably heard it from his mother or grandmother, not his uncle), but most Americans have no idea where the camps were or which was which. I know two siblings -- daughter and son of a Holocaust survivor, and I hear two different stories about where their father was interned. My opinion -- they may both be right. Internees were sometimes moved from camp to camp.

Here, Obama may have confused the words Auschwitz-Birkenau with Buchenwald. If you don't speak German these words might sound similar. I'll bet 95% of Americans do not know the difference.

[ekwhite]

145. More likely, he heard Ohrdruf as Auschwitz

Or Mis-remembered it thusly. Family history tales are strange that way. If his uncle actually liberated Ohrdruf, it is no wonder he was traumatized. The photographs I saw on the links I provided were something that would beggar even Dante's imagination.

[Maraya1969]

86. What's funny is to have you family of origin talk about something big

that happened when you were a kid. Everyone tells a different story.

[yardwork]

180. You're quoting a comic book writer as a source of journalistic integrity?

I love comic books, but...are you serious?

:rofl:

[nxylas]

182. He knows the way a writer's mind works

That little editor that lives in the subconscious saying "that word's not quite punchy enough, try this one instead".

[yardwork]

187. I'm sure that comic book writers do that all the time. That doesn't mean that Obama did.

A far likelier explanation is that the family didn't have the name quite right until busy-body Republicans made it their business to twist a hero's experience into some kind of manufactured "scandal."

[polmaven]

174. That is pretty far out there!

It is hard to shake off the suspicion that Obama is substituting the name of a better-known death camp for rhetorical effect.

It is REALLY, REALLY hard to shake off the suspicion that one of two things have been done here....
1) nearing the end of a long day during a long campaign, he got the name of the camp wrong.
2) The family history details became a little distorted over the years.

:wow:

If you suspect otherwise, I can only say....get a life!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cant trust em]

15. Whatever it takes, no matter how flimsy the argument. NT

[DevonRex]

26. Probably thinks that but knows it can't be said here. nt

[2rth2pwr]

100. "great" uncle? I thought it was his Uncle?

[GoesTo11]

105. Brother of the grandmother who raised him.

But if you want to go nuts about this, be my guest.

[Forkboy]

109. I see another thread coming on.

:)

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alexander]

118. People call their great uncles "uncle" all the time.

Are you seriously trying to make an issue out of such an incredibly stupid detail?

[2rth2pwr]

131. I don't know anybody that does that, do you? I think it would be more

typical to refer to him as his grandmother's brother or someone in the family, not uncle.

[Peacetrain]

139. I have never called my grandmothers brother.. grandma's brother.

I called him uncle..

[I Have A Dream]

152. My nieces' children *ALL* call me 'Aunt'.

I can't believe that people are making an issue of the 'Uncle' part. :eyes:

[Vogon_Glory]

156. I Disagree Because I Do

I disagree about not knowing anyone who calls a grandparent's sibling an "aunt" or an "uncle" because I did. As a child, I called my paternal grandfather's brother Uncle Homer. Uncle Homer may have been technically been my great-uncle, but I called him "uncle" when addressing him. The same thing was true of my paternal grandmother's sisters, and there were a good many of them still around when I was a kiddo.

For that matter, when I was a small boy, I called some of my older cousins "aunt" and "uncle" even if they were only cousins. Of course they had forty years on me at the time. I only started calling them cousin so-and-so when I hit adolescence.

[sharp_stick]

158. I did it all the time

All of my Grandparents brothers and sisters were Uncle and Aunt. I really don't know anybody that would refer to Grandma's brother Jack to his face. Grandma's brother Jack pass the yams would ya? Nah doesn't ring true to me.

[axollot]

164. I call my great uncles - UNCLE - because that is what they are...

just like my daughter calls her great-grandmother, grandma. So yea, *I* really do know people that do that. *I* do that. I had (they've all passed) 12 great uncles, not a one did I refer to as my grandfathers brother....it was always *MY* Uncle so n so.

This is really fuckin petty. Dear lord......

Cheers
Sandy

Obama 08!

[IronLionZion]

165. I certainly do,

I call my grandfather's brothers "uncle" and his sister "aunty". I don't call anyone "grandfather's brother" and I doubt you do either. Do you think this bullshit helps Hillary somehow or do you just want to look like an asshole?

[JackintheGreen]

166. I'm late to the party

but I'm gonna jump all of this one, too.

My daughter calls all of her maternal grandmother's siblings aunt/uncle. And her grandfather's brother uncle, too. She's knows them all well, sees them regularly, and frankly 'great uncle Paul' is a mouthful.

She knew her great grandmother until she was 8, too. She didn't call her great grandmother.

The 'great' is usually used to distinguish distant, unknown, or dead relations from the one's you actually know.

For us it only becomes a problem thus:

My father in law's brother married Curt Simmons' daughter. Simmons was a MLB pitcher who spent most of his career with the Phillies, but at the end of his career with the Cubs. And we're huge Cubs fans, so we're happy to take credit for having a former Cub in the family - one who sat on the bench with Leo Durocher, Fergie Jenkins, Ron Santo, etc. Simmons' daughter is 'Aunt Suzie;' always has been and always will be. But what the hell does that make her dad to us (technically speaking of course, 'cuz we've never actually met the man)? This is where modifiers like great and removed are used.

Nyah! :P

[2rth2pwr]

167. great' is usually used to dstngsh distant, unknown, or dead relations frm the one's u actually know'

Obama doesn't seem to have met the man.

[JackintheGreen]

173. Well!

then clearly he shouldn't be our nominee. the man is obviously a liar of the first order!

Is the the gist of this general counter argument?

[polmaven]

178. I have to disagree with you...

And, as you can see, I am very much a Hillary person....but I am a "great aunt" x2 to my nieces children. I am now a great, great aunt to my great nephew's son. ...yes....I am OLD, but certainly not distant, unknown, or dead (yet).....:loveya:

[2rth2pwr]

179. Then we agree, I was quoting back that posters own argument.

[polmaven]

185. Oh!!!!!

Sorry, I missed that! ....Ooops!:blush:

[Barrymores Ghost]

169. "More typical" for whom? I've called all of my great-uncles and great-aunts "Uncle __" and Aunt __"

...all of my life, as have my siblings and my first cousins.

[LaurenG]

170. My grandmother's brother was Uncle Archie

my dad called him Uncle Archie and I called him Uncle Archie and my kids called him Uncle Archie. So you're wrong, people do refer to their grandparents siblings as Uncle or Aunt. What is the big deal over this?

[polmaven]

175. Yes, they do.

My great nephew and my great niece call me "Auntie"....This is such a non story, I find it difficult to believe it is even still alive at this point.

[rainlillie]

137. It is his "uncle" I've never met

anyone who calls their great uncle, great uncle most people just say uncle. Just like I call my great grandpa, grandpa.

[unapatriciated]

157. great uncle or uncle in some families like mine it's much the same...

I'm the oldest and my sister (the youngest) has children the same age as my grandchildren, who refer to her as aunt mary and her husband as uncle. Technically they are a great aunt and uncle. My grandchildren will always refer to them as aunt and uncle since that is and will be their title as they grow up. Don't understand why that seems strange to you, it's pretty common in large families or children who have been raised by their grandparents.

[marylanddem]

10. agreed.

My father was one of the first American G.I.'s into Dachau. It affected his whole life & to use this as a political "gotcha" if Obama got the name wrong - well this is truly unfuckingbelievable.

[DevonRex]

And unfuckingforgivable. nt

[Renew Deal]

8. Ask Michelle Malkin and find out

[DevonRex]

21. Can you BELIEVE he fuckin' cut and pasted Michelle Malkin?

I thought only *** did that to smear democrats. But hey, he's here at DU, so maybe I was wrong...

Edited to remove some pithy language.***

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. He "cut & pasted" CBS news and so did Malkin.

Do you guys even try to be honest?

News excerpts are quoted every day here. Some of them are also find their way to FR or Drudge. When the enemy is Hillary, this happens quite often, in fact.

[2rth2pwr]

101. ..

thanks

[JackBeck]

134. See here for some reality based education:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6147846&mesg_id=6148105

None of that was from the CBS News article, but from a right-wing blog, that the OP used as their own without giving credit to the source.

[Cant trust em]

13. The history got muddled, but if this is what's holding your point together

then this is a pretty flimsy reason to not vote Obama.

[Bucky]

14. Ohrduf doesn't count.

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. LOL

[beachmom]

40. It sure as hell counted to General Eisenhower

After his visit, Eisenhower cabled General George C. Marshall, the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in Washington, describing his trip to Ohrdruf:

. . .the most interesting--although horrible--sight that I encountered during the trip was a visit to a German internment camp near Gotha. The things I saw beggar description. While I was touring the camp I encountered three men who had been inmates and by one ruse or another had made their escape. I interviewed them through an interpreter. The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering as to leave me a bit sick. In one room, where they were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said that he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to 'propaganda.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrdruf_forced_labor_camp

[Leopolds Ghost]

160. Auschwitz was in a Red state -- Poland after the war.

Ohrduf... not so much.

[Raven]

16. I am just curious...did you know when you posted that stuff about

Obama's relative that it was wrong? Do you do these things on purpose or don't you bother to check? Do you find what you do amusing? fulfilling? constructive? Just really curious...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Are you kidding?

The guy didn't know the Russians were with the allies.

We're dealing with somebody with a black slate when it comes to history.

[axollot]

163. A "BLACK" slate? Freudian slip or what?

his race has nothing to do with his ability to run or not run the White House (which name will remain "White" House when he is elected prez too...just so ya know :sarcasm:).

The venom coming from Hilarity and her minions is disgusting. It needs to stop, she isn't going to get the nom and the 'thugs will come out in force to NOT elect her if she is tied to his ticket as VP - sorry guys.

The final straw for me is her waiting for him to basically get assasinated so she could get the nomination. She didn't say it in so many words but it *WAS* implied HEAVILY. Thats just fucked up - we are DEMOCRATS we need to stick together - FUCK MCSAME AND THE GOP!

Cheers
Sandy
GOBAMA 08!

[2rth2pwr]

102. His uncle liberated Auschwitz is as about as accurate as saying his cousin cheney

was President.

[Jim Lane]

121. No, it's more like Hillary Clinton's misstatement about her own family history

Her claim to have been named in honor of the mountaineer Edmund Hillary has been .

In her 2006 re-election campaign, Clinton changed the story (flip-flopped?). According to in The New York Times:

But yesterday, Mrs. Clinton’s campaign said she was not named for Sir Edmund after all.

“It was a sweet family story her mother shared to inspire greatness in her daughter, to great results I might add,” said Jennifer Hanley, a spokeswoman for the campaign.

See, I used to think that this was a meaningless incident. Family stories sometimes get garbled. No big deal.

Now, however, you and the other Clinton supporters have opened my eyes. A candidate who relates something from his or her family history is morally obligated to get every single detail right. So, in vending this story about Sir Edmund Hillary, Clinton wasn't just making an innocent mistake. She was deliberately lying. It was an utterly shameless and dishonorable attempt to appeal to voters who follow mountaineering, just as Obama must have had some sort of political scheme in mind when he gave the name of one concentration camp instead of another.

My serious point is that these two statements are on a par. Saying that Cheney is President would be completely different.

[ShortnFiery]

124. Hillary's entire family was guilty of spreading that lie up until Bubba's Presidency when

the whorish press did a little research. The whole family LIES!

[Blue-Jay]

168. Do you ever run out of stupid?

[tokenlib]

19. Buchenwald and Auschwitz may be two different camps but the horror is the same...

When stories get told in families sometimes the details get a little mixed, but that is not to say the essential truth is not the same... Those of us with WWII veterans in the family run into this a lot.

[Mike L]

59. And Obama had nothing to do with liberating either. Talk about a crappy reach for military vote. em

[DevonRex]

60. MEMORIAL DAY SPEECH.

[comrade snarky]

142. About PTSD

And the need to care for our wounded vets for christ's sake!

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K Gardner]

71. That crap is originating at HillaryClintonForum. How long is Skinner going to allow this RW garbage

[DevonRex]

76. I don't know. Go back and alert it if you have time. :) nt

[indimuse]

92. PROOF!

! or SU!

[Cheap_Trick]

63. and threatening to "obliterate" Iran

is a piss poor way to try and get the chickenhawk vote.

[bigbrother05]

112. Believe the reference was to note the impact war had on a relative

By way of explaining his support of health care and benefits for vets. Said his uncle retreated to the attic after his return. Sympathy for the horrors experienced by our Soldiers is something I want in our next President, not the "they volunteered" crap we've seen for 6 years.

[Peacetrain]

140. The point of Senator Obamas story,

was the need for care for returning soldiers.. he was making a point of how the stress of the war impacted his uncle.. and how we have a responsibility to our returning vets to make sure they have the medical care..physical and mental that they need..

[progdonkey]

147. Oh, when did he say HE liberated Auschwitz?

Talk about a crappy straw man.

He was clearly bringing it up to say that in his own immediate family there's someone who suffered from PTSD. That the cause was viewing the horror at Buchenwald, or Auschwitz, or Dachau, or Bergen-Belsen is completely irrelevant to his point about knowing what some servicemembers and their families have to go through after the war is over.

God damn, you Republican shills are really losing all ability to reason, aren't you?

[Indenturedebtor]

70. Yeah I for one can't remember if my Grandma was in Auschwitz or Dachau

What difference does it make? She was in a fucking concentration camp. To try to pick this apart is disgusting.

I wonder how the reaction would be if someone said "My Grandfather was a slave in Georgia..." and the RW started spouting off "No you LIAR LIAR LIAR, he was in Alabama, blah blah blah." How stupid can you get.

[DevonRex]

74. Bravo! Thank you so much for posting this. And I'm sorry she went

through that.

[tblue37]

75. It's like when Gore toured a disaster site with an official,

but was confused about which official it was. The story was not materially changed by whether it was this official or that official, but the RW and the MSM used it as another excuse to call Gore a "serial liar." This is a RW tactic, and I am ashamed and astonished that DUers would use it against our party's presumptive nominee.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Two different camps

the Russians liberated Auwhwitz in 1944, known in poland as Oswieszim (sp I know), while Buchembald was THE FIRST camp set up by the Germans first as a
reeducation center, opened as early as 1934

Knowing how many people have heard of Aushwitz but not of the other hundred or so camps, it is an understandable mistake

Of course if you want to go into the history of why we didn't bomb Aushwitz as early as '43 and the fact that the US High Command and FDR knew
of the camp and its operation, we can gladly go there too

[Richard Steele]

57. Is "clear blue sky" another name for "sniper fire"?

:eyes:

[K Gardner]

69. Its another part of Buchenwald, moran.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. This is a benign kind of embellishment.

Not a really bad one, like flying into a combat zone where snipers might be.

Perhaps "auschwitz" should become a punchline serving as a replacement for substantive discussion like "sniper" has become.

[newmajority]

106. Not even close to a comparable situation.

Obama didn't create a story out of a complete lie, he just got the name of the camp wrong. Hillary created a complete fabrication with the "sniper fire" story, and she repeated it on at least three known occasions.

There's a world of difference there.

[emilyg]

96. No.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ekwhite]

144. Not as far as I can tell

It was part of Buchenwald, which was in Germany, as opposed to Auschwitz, which was in Poland. Ohrdruf was a forced labor camp, as opposed to a extermination camp such as Auschwitz. Of course, there was little practical difference between forced labor camps and extermination camps - only the method of death. Here is a link to the Wikipedia page on Ohrdruf. Here is a link to the US Holocaust museum entry on Ohrdruf.

Be warned that both links contain horrific photographs.

[Kittycat]

9. Wow, I bet *some* outspoken people here feel stupid now.

That's what they get for trying to spread their unsourced RW hate here.

[DevonRex]

31. Hmm. Too stupid to know they're stupid maybe. nt

[ClassWarrior]

33. Nahhh, they know exactly what they're doing.

They're trolls.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

34. .

[DevonRex]

38. I agree completely. nt

[Catherina]

135. I agree completely too. Unreservedly. n/t

[sandnsea]

11. but but... he's black..

and bigots' heads explode.

[Bucky]

18. Best Joe Pesci line, ever

"But... you're blick" (Lethal Weapon 2)

[beachmom]

43. Well, um, it was bigots who ran those camps in '45 ....

[jefferson_dem]

58. Precisely.

Reality is some are looking for any excuse to not like Barack, and blame it on something other than their veiled bigotry. Fuckem.

[TLM]

138. I agree.... fuckum!

This is Hillary's base.... the only thing missing is the banjo music and Ned Beatty getting raped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNbLQ6DC8mw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODaxZSz3Awg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1x81XODP-o&feature=related

[grassfed]

12. rec'd thx

[haymakeragain]

23. Is Obama's mispeak worse than "RFK was asassinated in June"?

Not by a country mile. Nice try by the hillaroids though.

[Bluebear]

89. This is not a "hillaroid" slam, it's from the Repblicans.

[polmaven]

186. But EVERYthing

that is the LEAST bit negative comes from us racist hillaroids!

The supporters of Senator Obama are just trying to be nice, sweet Democrats, trying to get along with everyone, but us bigots are spewing all this hate alla time!

Tsk...don't you get that? ...

[DerekJ]

24. OH SNAP!!!

:rofl:

[smiley_glad_hands]

25. K & R for the truth. eom

[DevonRex]

28. Kickin to keep it above the scummy other post. nt

[ClassWarrior]

39. .

[ClassWarrior]

53. .

[ClassWarrior]

65. .

[ClassWarrior]

68. .

[ClassWarrior]

72. .

[Richard Steele]

73. Same. nm

[Hope And Change]

29. K & R!

[DerekJ]

32. K & R

[beachmom]

37. Picture of the liberation of Ohrdruf Camp can be found at the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrdruf_forced_labor_camp

If someone can get the photo to upload to post here please do.

Ohrdruf forced labor camp was a Nazi concentration camp located near Weimar, Germany. It was part of the Buchenwald concentration camp network and the first Nazi camp liberated by U.S. troops.

Created in November 1944 near the town of Gotha, Germany, Ohrdruf supplied forced labor in the form of concentration camp prisoners for railway construction leading to a proposed communications center, which was never completed due to the rapid American advance. In late March 1945, the camp had a prisoner population of some 11,700, but in early April the SS evacuated almost all the prisoners on death marches to Buchenwald. The SS guards killed many of the remaining prisoners who were too ill to walk to the railcars.

It was liberated on April 4, 1945, by the 4th Armored Division and the 355th Infantry Regiment of the 89th Infantry Division, U.S. Third Army. It was the first Nazi concentration camp liberated by the US Army.

When the soldiers of the 4th Armored Division entered the camp, they discovered piles of bodies, some covered with lime, and others partially incinerated on pyres. The ghastly nature of their discovery led General Dwight D. Eisenhower, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe, to visit the camp on April 12, with Generals George S. Patton and Omar Bradley. After his visit, Eisenhower cabled General George C. Marshall, the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in Washington, describing his trip to Ohrdruf:

. . .the most interesting--although horrible--sight that I encountered during the trip was a visit to a German internment camp near Gotha. The things I saw beggar description. While I was touring the camp I encountered three men who had been inmates and by one ruse or another had made their escape. I interviewed them through an interpreter. The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering as to leave me a bit sick. In one room, where they were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said that he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to 'propaganda.'

Seeing the Nazi crimes committed at Ohrdruf made a powerful impact on Eisenhower, and he wanted the world to know what happened in the concentration camps. On April 19, 1945, he again cabled Marshall with a request to bring members of Congress and journalists to the newly liberated camps so that they could bring the horrible truth about Nazi atrocities to the American public.

How horrible it must have been for Obama's Great Uncle. I am sure the stark memories of witnessing the horror of that camp are still with him today.

[suffragette]

99. Here's the photo

[juno jones]

103. There are a number of pictures at that link

I cannot help but wonder if Obama's relative is in one of pictures showing the group of American liberators viewing these atrocities.

There is a pic of one my uncles(along with his troop)in a Life pictorial that made a later anthology volume. God knows the remaining family is a little hazy on the specifics, but he is there, immortalized in B&W. He served under Patton and was witness to similar atrocities of which no name has come down to my generation of kids.

[endarkenment]

41. The real question here is how do they feel after their bullshit is revealed?

When they are caught red-handed propagating spurious bullshit from rightwing sources, and when the actual facts put the whole 'affair' into the proper perspective of 'just another rightwing smear job', how do they feel about having gleefully participated in the act?

Oh my, it was Buchenwald not Auschwitz. That does it!

Where will our friends be posting next week?

[DevonRex]

44. They don't give a shit and will do it again today or tomorrow. nt

[2rth2pwr]

108. His uncle liberated Auschwitz is as about as accurate as saying his cousin cheney

was President.

[progdonkey]

149. what a sharp mind you have...

:eyes:

Let's take this very... slowly... so it's easiest for you to understand:

Obama had a great uncle--check

Great uncle was in the 89th infantry division during WWII--check

89th Infantry Division liberated a concentration camp--check

Great Uncle was with the 89th Infantry Division when it liberated said concentration camp--check

That concentration camp was Auschwitz--wrong, actually Buchenwald.


ZOMGOMG, he's such a fucking liar!


Now, let's look at the thing that's "about as accurate":

Obama has a cousin named Cheney--nope

Obama has a cousin who is president--nope



It's like comparing apples to kittens.

[Crunchy Frog]

161. Sadly, I don't expect him to grasp the logic.

[TahitiNut]

45. Ouch! Poor Ben Smith. He must've felt bad to post that. (Gun to his head?)

To actually have to report that Obama's (grand)uncle really did serve in WW2 and confront the TOTAL HORROR of the death camp atrocities.

But, of course, THAT will be ignored because it's so much more important that Obama, as a child, misremembered the name of the camp. Yeah ... that's so much more serious that making analogies about assassinated contenders.

:eyes: Gotta love that "higher bar."

[NOLALady]

46. ,

:kick:

[Cha]

48. Your friggin signiture is something I don't believe in..who

cares if she's woman or an elf? She's a monster who will stop at nothing..even if it's RFK's assassination in June talking points.


<snips>

"Yet the assassination reference wasn't Clinton's only mistake. In the same breath, she maintained that her husband had not wrapped up the nomination until June. In truth, he did so in March with the Illinois primary. While California made his victory a mathematical fact, the outcome had not been in doubt for months.

She also struck discordant notes in January when she said Martin Luther King's dream of racial equality was realized only when President Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and after her victory in the West Virginia primary earlier this month when she noted she was beating Obama among "working, hardworking Americans, white Americans."

In the current tempest over what Clinton said — and what she meant — the calendar may be the real culprit. She made a similar remark about the 1968 Kennedy assassination in March that received little notice then, probably because there were still plenty of state contests left and more uncertainty as to who would come out ahead.

Now, the longer the nomination race goes on, the more people are asking Clinton why she continues to campaign.

She insists she can win, but the mathematical explanations for how that can happen grow more fanciful by the week.

And without any clear explanation of how she can win, mentioning the Robert Kennedy assassination to some ears sounds like the last, desperate scenario of someone unwilling to admit defeat."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080524/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_remark

It's nice that you can bring up articles about Obama's great uncle helping to liberate the Ohrduf camp in Germany World War 11 but please get a clue..

It's not right that you as an Obama support tout this shit.

[ann_american2004]

84. The OP has the right

The OP can tout any wish or dream that the OP wants. I think it a nice picture, if only it could be that way instead of all the shiat slinging.
and since we are posting links, here's one for you:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10604.html

Obama '08

It is not a black and white world
but one of varying shades.
none of us will ever be absolutely right
or undeniably wrong
so we must find the path to truth
together
by sharing our
insight and opinions
trusting that
together
we will find
the better way
moving toward
those wholesome
answers
where hope
stirs our hearts
and peace
soothes our
weary minds
trusting in
each other
we will find
our
truth

[Cha]

107. And I have a right to complain about freakin'

hilary being touted as a vp candidate when she so cleary would be the absolute worst choice in this or any other campaign.

hilary is a monster who will stoop to anything and she's a dino representing the dlc who would be like a trojan horse.

So yeah, get a clue malik flavors.

[malik flavors]

110. Haha, oh please. Was this post really necessary? He's probably going to pick her so get used to it.

[beachmom]

50. But the real question is was Obama's Great Uncle in Cambodia or not?

[nsd]

51. K & R

[Mike L]

54. Why is BO touting a distant relative's military history? em

[DevonRex]

56. And why the fuck did you say his uncle fought for the KLF?

And maybe you oughta use The Googler on that one. Different continent.

[FrenchieCat]

62. To counter the fucked worthless pieces of shit attempting to

define him as something less than a citizen and a patriot.

That would be pieces shit not fit for my shoes.

[DevonRex]

66. You're talking to somebody who said his uncle fought for the

Kenyan Liberation Front. He doesn't care about shit on his shoes.

I can only assume he meant the OLF since KLF comes back Korean Liberation Front.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. Because it was Memorial Day. That's the whole point of the holiday.

I don't think he meant it personally that his ancestors used to shoot people like your ancestors.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

116. It was from a Memorial Day speech in which Obama

wished to emphasize the effect of war on individuals. If I had been asked to speak on the same subject, I would have cited the military histories of several ancestors, including great great great uncles, who fought in the Revolution and others who fought in the Civil War. My point would be to show how their experience in war affected the rest of their lives, which was the point Obama was making.

[demwing]

130. Because it directly relates an example

of how Obama's family has personal experience with the plight of soldiers returning from the war, and suffering extreme stress.

Look stuff up...

[stillcool]

132. He used his uncle's experience..

with PTSD when he came home, to advocate for mental health screening for soldiers coming home from Iraq. Of course, that part of the story, is not important.

[Jersey Devil]

55. Oh no! Obama's doomed

If he can't keep the names of Nazi death camps straight we need Hillary more than ever! :rofl:

[Hamlette]

77. If Hillary had just gotten the name of the town wrong in the sniper incident, I'd forgive her.

people, get a grip. Obama wasn't even there. Who knows how much of our "family history" is spot on accurate? I'm thinking there could be some misremembered stories in mine.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

117. anyone who has done genealogical research would agree with you

Many many family stories have misremembered incidents. Often they are wrapped around a kernel of truth. It is fun to go back and look at documents that finally get things straight.

[bhikkhu]

78. thanks for posting that

Its always good to see the facts, particularly when shedding light on important history.

[Major Hogwash]

80. This is awesome! His uncle was one of our heroes! We looked up to those men since we were kids!!

This is the greatest news yet!! Damn!! This is way cool!!!!

[FrenchieCat]

83. Absolutely!

:thumbsup:

[emilyg]

141. O does not have an uncle.

[Goblinmonger]

184. Do you refer to your cousins

by the correct label, i.e. this is my 2nd-cousin-twice-removed Emily? You probably just call them cousins. This is his great uncle. He calls him uncle. He technically is his uncle. Add into the mix that he is the brother of the woman that raised him (his grandmother) and uncle seems even more likely to be said.

GET THE FUCK OVER IT.

[emilyg]

191. You had me till your crude language.

[RamboLiberal]

85. Memories from an 89th Infantry Soldier of the camp

-----

As we stepped into the compound one was greeted by an overpowering odor of quick-lime, dirty clothing, feces, and urine. Lying in the center of the square were 60-70 dead prisoners clad in striped clothing and in disarray. They had reportedly been machine gunned the day before because they were too weak to march to another camp. The idea was for the SS and the prisoners to avoid the approaching U.S. Army and the Russians.

Adjacent to the "parade ground" was a small shed which was open on one side. Inside, were bodies stacked in alternate directions as one would stack cordwood, and each layer was covered with a sprinkling of quicklime. I did not see him, but someone told me that there had been a body of a dead American aviator in the shed. This place reportedly had been used for punishment, and the inmates were beaten on their back and heads with a shovel. My understanding is that all died following this abuse.

I visited some of the surrounding barracks and found live inmates who had hidden during the massacre. They were astounded and appeared to be struggling to understand what was happening. Some were in their 5 tier bunks and some were wandering about.

This was the first camp to be "liberated" by the Allied armies in Germany. Orhdruf was visited by Generals Eisenhower, Patton and Bradley and there are photographs of them observing the bodies of the machine-gunned inmates. According to Eisenhower, Patton had refused to visit the punishment shed, as he feared he would become ill. He did vomit at a later time.

Further into the camp was evidence of an attempt to exhume and burn large numbers of bodies. There was a gallows, although I really cannot remember whether I saw it or not. I don't remember leaving the camp. I recall being numb after seeing the camp. I had just turned 20 years old and I had read the biographical "Out of the Night." It was a pale and inadequate picture of a German concentration camp by a refugee German author.

I recall becoming very upset when we got back to our quarters, but the whole experience was far beyond my understanding. I wrote a letter to my parents describing the experience, which was read at a local gathering of businessmen. It was widely disbelieved.

Bruce Nickols, 1998
http://www.89infdivww2.org/ohrdruf/liberate.htm

[ekwhite]

146. So, if I read the story right

Obama's uncle was part of the liberation of the first concentration camp to be liberated? This is more heroic than liberating Auschwitz. I can imagine that being one of the first soldiers to see these horrors must have been traumatic beyond belief.

[mainer]

87. 16 years before Obama was born.

So he got the details a bit wrong. He wasn't there. At least he didn't say he was ducking sniper fire.

[AnnieBW]

88. My uncle was on Ike's staff in WWII

I posted this in another reply, but I'm posting it again in this one. My uncle Tom, who was on Eisenhower's staff during WWII, wrote a letter home to my Aunt Betty (my Mom's older sister). In it, he said that Eisenhower ordered all of the GIs to go see the concentration camps, and what had been done there. Because he knew somehow, somewhere, some a**hole was going to deny that this happened. It really made an impression on my uncle. It's interesting that I've known him all of my life, and he'd never mentioned it. We found this out because we found the letter after he sold his house.

[Bluebear]

90. How DARE you try to set a Republican talking point on it's ear?

They were just getting all excited, spitting Skoal and spittle everywhere before you came along.

[Kutjara]

188. Who needs Republicans, when we've...

...got DU? There's enough RW hate and bigotry right here to fill a convention center. This place is like something out of "Life of Brian," only much less funny.

I wonder if FR will shut down when all its members have finally moved over here?

[indimuse]

91. The Obama Pander /@%@#^$*^ WHOOPS!

Everybody DANCE! lol....

[Lucky 13]

94. Wrong candidate. Hillary's the Panderbear!!!

http://bp2.blogger.com/_wFr5PPBBpLU/RxJM_sPsiPI/AAAAAAAAB-s/ew5FB8igfYw/s400/pander+bear1.JPG

[Lucky 13]

93. KICKETY

[elocs]

95. #50 K & R, one small point regarding family relations:

The sibling of a person's grandparent is their "grand" uncle in the same way in this case it is Obama's "grand"mother. There really is no such thing as a "great" uncle other than a great grand uncle. I am a grand uncle myself.

[JawJaw]

111. Auschwitz....Auschwitz...?

Hmmm...that word rings a bell......

Oh Yeah, Prescott Bush!

Hey liberal media, over here!

Oh nevermind...

[Spazito]

119. Kick for the truth

:kick:

[George II]

120. What camp did bush liberate?

More like, how many did he CREATE???

[Swamp Rat]

122. k&r

:patriot:

[andres hunter]

123. Ohrduz is not Auschwitz

Obama needs a geography lesson.

[GarbagemanLB]

125. Kids with flowers aren't snipers. Hillary needs to refresh her memory about Bosnia.

[andres hunter]

128. Yup, Hillary and Obama have atrocious memories

Obama once said 10,000 had died in a Kansas tornado that killed 12.

[TLM]

143. And then issued an immediate correction....

You understand that saying ten thousand instead of ten, is misspeaking.


Saying you were shot at by snipers and had to run to your car, when there were no snipers and you hung out for an hour doing photo opts and signing autographs... that's misspeaking, that's called a lie.

[stillcool]

133. Me too...

where is Ohrduz, in relation to Buchenwald, in relation to Auschwitz?

[Catherina]

136. Give it to him from the grave you dead troll n/t

[progdonkey]

150. and you need a reading lesson...

it's Ohrdruf, not Ohrduz...

[NotThisTime]

126. Good to see someone's family served.... and Great Uncle is a hero

And he is still alive

[Evergreen Emerald]

129. If you had given clinton the same benefit you give obama

she would not be so demonized. He "mispeaks" She "lies" He "was tired and makes mistakes, he is only human" she "is the devil."

The double standard here and in the media has given Obama a leg up that he did not deserve and thrown road blocks in Clinton's path that were unfair.

[shagsak]

176. didn't she mispronounce Medvedev's name at a debate?

Was that blown way out of proportion? No, it was joked about on SNL maybe but otherwise no one cared so much. I mean, it's a tough name to pronounce if you haven't over and over. Same with Ahmadinajad (sp?) or Olmert. Obama probably mis prounounced a geographical location. That is different than misremembering facts that happened to you. Do you disagree?

BTW, most people here research the news and make up their own mind, not regurgitate MSN. NEVER let the media make up your mind for you.

And road blocks? You think Clinton has had major road blocks? Name one that compares to the spin placed on Rev. Wright. The only road block she has had is herself. I hate to say it, but she has burned too many bridges and doesn't care at all about this party.

[Douglas Carpenter]

148. thank you for the clarity -- It really is awesome just how evil and nasty the GOP is to degrade Sen.

Obama's family for their heroic contribution by trying to turn the whole thing into a "gotcha" game.

[jmowreader]

151. I saw the pictures of that place...

I think that if I would have liberated the Ohrdruf camp, I would have had to tell myself I liberated a less-awful camp just to be able to live with myself. OMG that place was fucking horrible. Worse than Auschwitz, and that's saying something.

Why haven't we responded to the fucking Repukes yet that at least our candidate's grandfather wasn't a Nazi sympathizer, like their current leader's grandfather was?

[ruby slippers]

153. he wasn't only a sympathizer, he was a "funder"......

and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I'm sure Dumbya advanced his cause somehow behind our back....Just look at Pfizer drugs today!!!! Viva Viagra!

[rainlillie]

155. Don't mind the lesson in history, but...

It sure would be damn nice if the press talked about the occupation in Iraq and the troops who are currently severing . McCain didn't even vote for the GI bill.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

159. First it was.....

"My parents got together because of the Selma marches in 1965," even though Baby Barry was born four years earlier in 1961...

Then it was "My father was on the Kennedy air flights from Kenya" even though his father came a year BEFORE the Kennedy air flights...

Now his uncle liberated Auschwitz!


and his peeps made a HUGE thing over Hillary "sniper fire" embellishment....let's see if any apologize for it


meh.

Hillary claimed that she was under fire in Bosnia--and she was actually there.

[revgerryaz]

171. What an extraordinary story Obama's family is.

I wonder if the uncle would be willing to be interviewed in order to support Barack's bid?

I think that this part of Obama's history can and should be highlighted when people attack him for having a polygamist muslim father since it is his WHITE family that raised him and from whom he got his values. Also it can be reassuring to Jewish voters, who can legitimately place him in their history.

Myself, I grew up in post-war Holland, with my grandparents whose home had been occupied by Nazis. Playing in bomb-holes in the city and bunkers at the beach, seeing Rotterdam flattened, has created in me a lifelong passion for peace.

I do not hate America as the Right would claim, I love my country and get misty eyed when singing the national anthem which I heard for the first time passing the statue of liberty on a ship from Europe, but I have always been haunted by the failure of German citizens to stop their government.

When we destroyed Fallujah Thanksgiving of 04, I was sickend and speechless and helpless and for the first time i really understood - that other than individual acts of heroism, and there were many, there really was nothing they could have done to stop the dictator. Remembering that the Bush family profited from the Nazi death camps and actively supported Hitler,

[jdbolick]

172. Obama's campaign is still not telling the truth

Charles W. Payne served in the Navy, not the Army. He was not a member of the 89th and was on the other side of the planet from Ohrdruf. Source: http://www.kshs.org/genealogists/military/wwiiveteransresults.php?page=421&branch=N


When Obama told this same story six years ago, he said it was his grandfather instead of his great uncle and that he only heard about the camps rather than was present at one. Source: http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

"Remarks of Illinois State Sen. Barack Obama Against Going to War with Iraq
| October 02, 2002

October 2, 2002

Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars."


Why couldn't they have just admitted that he made a mistake instead of making everything worse by trying to cover it up?

[tammywammy]

177. You have the wrong Charles Payne

Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there

This website has been created to honor the service of the 89th Infantry Division during the Second World War. The 89th, known as the Rolling W, served with distinction during combat operations in Europe from March-May, 1945.

This website was created by 89th veteran Raymond E. Kitchell and his son Mark R. Kitchell. We are grateful to the contributions of histories, stories and pictures from numerous 89th Infantry veterans and their families, and from the 89th Infantry Division Society.

http://www.89infdivww2.org/



There's no cover up, because he did serve in the Army and helped liberate a concentration camp. End of Story.

[Iceburg]

181. We know the 89th Infantry Division existed ...

where is the record of his enlistment with the army. Todate none has been found, but a poster from http://riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/05/a-new-problem-f.html has found a record for a "Charles W. Payne of Kansas" of the same vintage, in the Navy.

[John Gauger]

183. Even if it wasn't true,

what the fuck difference would it make? Who cares whether or not he had an uncle in World War II? What the fuck does that have to do with being President?

[montanto]

189. And??

This provides what credentials?


I'm all for Obama, but what does this do? Its like talking about *s grandfather. What's the point?

[malik flavors]

190. He's just taking pride in his roots. Is that ok?