Over half of my Father's side of the family died in the Holocaust

[Indenturedebtor]

I was raised as a Reform Jew. My Grandmother took care of me for the better part of 13 years. In that time she very rarely talked about the horrors she'd seen in Nazi Germany. Usually she avoided the subject, but every once in awhile she would get a far off look and a flat tone and sort of absentmindedly pick at her horrible emotional scar with her words. I can still remember many of her stories about the fall to facism, how she couldn't shop at certain stores, how all of her non-Jewish friends wouldn't talk to her any more. I remember her telling me about the fear and the denial, about being forced into the ghetto, and then sent away to Dachau. She once told me about how she and my Grandfather had been "broken out" by his mother who paid a bribe, and the two of them tried so hard to find their other family members, and eventually found out that they had nearly all been murdered. But that was after the war. After they'd been set loose they fled South East and escaped through the Dardanelles somehow to Israel and then on to the US. I think. Or maybe they went East from Dachau. Or was it Auschwitz? I don't know. I'm certain of the core facts and have very vivid memories about hearing of many of them. I even remember the taste of the mustard flavored sardines we'd eat when she was feeling "chatty".

You see I spent a good part of my youth going to class after school to learn what it is to be a Jew. I learned about our history and our culture, about our obligations to the world, and of course I learned a great deal about the Holocaust. I learned about the different camps, and I heard stories from dozens of guest speaker survivors. I've read books, and seen movies, and sat through cold matter of fact lectures on what happened. I've been to the two big Holocaust museums, and have found pictures of my FAMILY in both (my Aunt donated pictures from the ghetto and post liberation).

It's strange to say it but the Holocaust has always been a significant part of my life. It was after all the largest defining moment for my family in our personal known history. It has shaped all of our thinking, and our fears, and even our psychology on a very fundamental level. I see all of humanity differently. My philosophies are differnt. My childhood was certainly different. And who knows what else? :shrug:

And I have pretty much NO CLUE which camp my Grandmother was in. I think it was Dachau, or Auschwitz but I'm not sure. Honestly it doesn't make two shits worth of difference, and it's not disrespectful in any way for me to forget. I wouldn't DREAM of asking my grandmother, were she still alive, and it really doesn't matter anyways. It's not like one of them had a fucking swimming pool, and one of them had a go-cart track.

Anyways would you people please just lay the hell off about this? It was nice to hear that Obama has some emotional connection to my family history, even if from a different angle. I don't care that he doesn't have all the little facts perfect, because it's the lessons and the sentiment that matters. And you know that. And you also know that it is difficult for people to talk about these things, even if they're just relating the anguish of a relative who experienced great anguish over the suffering of OTHERS. It's still painful and difficult to talk about the pain of people you care about.

I would bet that 99.9% of Holocaust survivors don't blame Obama for getting the names messed up. I have a stronger connection to that horrible time than he does, and I don't blame him one single tiny bit. But I do take offense to people trying to use this for Gotcha politics. It's disgusting.

[K Gardner]

1. Thank you for writing this. K&R

[Swamp Rat]

2. Shalom

:hug:

[gabeana]

3. very poignant, thank you for this post n/t

[beachmom]

4. I went to see Dachau in 1998 or 1999, and there was a man there who

had been held there during WWII. His entire family was dead, so he hung around Dachau talking to the tourists, telling stories. When you first walk into the camp, it seems so sterile now that it is hard to imagine what it was like back then. Then the man started telling stories, and my husband translated for him to all of us Americans. And, suddenly, I just needed to leave the camp. I think it would be that way no matter which camp one visited.

Thank you for telling your family's story, and putting it all into perspective.

[comrade snarky]

One of the most powerful experiences

I have ever had was speaking to a survivor of the camps. Her stories of what she and her family went through, the torture and occasional assistance she received will never leave me. I don't want it to, it's too important.

It's strange, the parts burned most deeply into my memory are the people who risked their lives to help the prisoners in some small way. Some of them Germans. Still brings tears to my eyes when I think about it.

Hearing another person talk about what happened in that nightmare made the it more viscerally real. It made it more personal, something outside the history books. I'm a pretty hardy guy and I done know if I could walk through a camp with a survivor. I really don't know.

That's why I'm not going to post on these threads. Anyone who would use the holocaust to score a cheap political gotcha is beneath contempt and I don't think I could restrain my words the way I should.

Thank you to everyone who can.

[AllentownJake]

5. K&R

[Bicoastal]

6. I didn't want to bring this up before, in front of the concern trolls...

...but MY Grandfather took part in freeing a concentration camp, although I've never known which one. As far as my family knows, he never spoke about it to anyone, save for once. When we'd ask for details, he'd either change the subject or point blank refuse. He only mentioned it once, briefly, to my Grandmother shortly after the War, but took the details of that experience with him to the grave.

He was an American Jew--his parents were both born in Eastern Europe, and came to this country around the turn of the last century. Most of his relatives perished in the Holocaust. You can see why it would be hard for him to talk about...

[beachmom]

7. I haven't read Obama's speech, but somebody mentioned that

his great uncle suffered possibly from PTSD as a result of what he saw. I can understand if your grandfather didn't want to talk about it.

[roguevalley]

46. most of the soldiers who went through such traumas as this don't

talk about it. my uncle John was one of the first marines who were abandoned on Guadalcanal for six months when the navy had to retreat. He never spoke of the war and what happened, even though I read about it and found it horrific. He did chuckle when he watched Baa, Baa Black Sheep. He said that was just how it was. Mazel tov, OP. My heart goes with you and your father's family.

[beachmom]

74. Because WWII was dubbed a "good" war, there is little talk of what effect it had on vets.

I am glad that Obama talked about his great uncle, what he saw, and how it affected him when he came home.

[Pirate Smile]

23. Here is what Barack said:

"I had a uncle who was one of the, who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz and liberate the concentration camps, and the story in our family was is that when he came home, he just went up into the attic and he didn’t leave the house for six months, right. Now obviously something had really affected him deeply but at that time there just weren’t the kinds of facilities to help somebody work through that kind of pain. That’s why you know the, this idea of making sure that every single veteran when they are discharged are screened for post traumatic stress disorder and given the mental health services that they need, that’s why its so important."

[canucksawbones]

67. I don't get why

people jump on this, I had great uncles that I referred to as uncle. I assume that that is how most people refer to aunts and uncles no matter how many greats you stick in front. I also have 2nd cousins that I refer to as cousins.

As you have shown Obama was making reference in exactly this way.

Thanks for the great quote.

[MidwestTransplant]

92. My half brother and sister are brother and sister to me.

[leftynyc]

110. Exactly

I have cousins (actually children of my first cousin which would make them second cousins??) who have called me Aunt their whole lives. People who are getting hung up over this weren't voting for Senator Obama anyway and I would think most thinking voters would think them petty for making it an issue.

[9thkvius]

118. I do the same thing

I refer to my parent's aunts and uncles (technically, my great aunts and great uncles) as my aunts and uncles all the time and don't think anything of it.

Veterans frequently refuse to talk about their worst experiences. My Uncle John (actually my mom's Uncle, but I always called him Uncle John) was at Pearl Harbor, and later he was on a destroyer that broke in half and sank, and I didn't find out about either of those events until long after he passed away. So if Senator Obama's uncle/great uncle didn't manage to tell his nephew/great-nephew the exact details of his experience liberating a camp, I fail to see how that is that big a deal, honestly.

[Pacifist Patriot]

79. That's the comment the uproar is over? Good grief!

I could have said the exact same thing about my great-uncle Bill and my thoughts on how we are treating our veterans today. Like verbatim.

[MorningGlow]

24. Ditto here

My uncle also was present when one of the concentration camps was freed. I, too, have no idea which one. That was the first thing I thought of when I read this overblown Obama story. My uncle passed away nearly 20 years ago, but when he was alive, I never dreamed of asking him to talk about it. I could ask my aunt now, but I could almost guarantee she would have no idea either. Does that make my uncle's service invalid? Not at all. It makes our memories faulty, but we don't love my uncle or honor his memory any less.

[Princess Buttercup]

38. Similar story

My great uncle was a medic at D Day. Apparently he came back from the war and told his sisters (one of whom was my grandmother) about it and then said he never wanted to talk about it again. As far I know he hasn't.

[Citizen_Penn]

117. Why relive hell? nt

[SwampG8r]

56. my uncle tl

went ashore on d day and marched across europe
he was part of a squad that broke up a very small camp compared to auschwitz or buchenwald
he never dealt fully with the crimes he had seen
it affected his whole life tho he remained functional

[flygal]

72. My brother-in-law's dad was the same

he never spoke about it until they were stuck together on a boat for days together in the nineties and it all came out. He was in Dday and since then he's embraced it and even goes to veterans events representing WWII and really loves it. The people are very honored he's started sharing his experiences.

[IndyOp]

8. I am so very sorry that people are using this for gotcha politics.

I am embarrassed and pained.

Thank you for sharing a bit about your family with us.

Peace.

[Lucky 13]

9. Obama's campaign released a statement. LINK:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Obamas_World_War_II_history.html

Turns out his great-uncle liberated Buchenwald.

[Indenturedebtor]

15. Thank you all for your kind sentiments.

I took a ride over to that link you posted Lucky. Bleh I didn't know politico was so full of RW dittoheads! I've got to remember to not read below the OP's! Disgusting :puke:

[Lucky 13]

19. I don't like Politico myself,

but that's the handiest link I had to the Obama statement. Sorry.

[Indenturedebtor]

33. No need at all for appologies! It's not like you wrote those crap comments on Politico! n/t

[Cha]

42. Thanks, Lucky 13

UPDATE: "Senator Obama’s family is proud of the service of his grandfather and uncles in World War II – especially the fact that his great uncle was a part of liberating one of the concentration camps at Buchenwald. Yesterday he mistakenly referred to Auschwitz instead of Buchenwald in telling of his personal experience of a soldier in his family who served heroically," Burton says.

UPDATE: RNC spokesman Alex Conant, who said earlier that Obama's mistake raised questions about his "readiness to lead", moderates a bit: "At times it appears that Barack Obama inaccurately recalls his own history and American history, so it’s important that we point to the facts. In this case, we’re happy to see that he took the time to set the record straight."

A$$holes best be tending to keeping mccain's lies straight.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

10. K&R

When I was growing up, my best friend and I would walk to the Chicago's
Logan Square neighborhood and visit her grandparents, both Holocaust
survivors. They would always have salmon salad sandwiches waiting for
us when we arrived.

I still make salmon salad just the way she did and think of them every time I do.

Thanks for reminding me of those lovely people today.

[EmilyAnne]

13. That's such a sweet story.

[rucognizant]

83. Salmon salad sandwiches..........

Do you have the recipe?
Love canned salmon! It was as much a part of the WW2 culture as trans fat burgers are today/
Way healthier! MAybe that's why we old people are living longer?

[EmeraldCityGrl]

85. Here you go...enjoy!

! Lg Can Salmon ( I prefer red) Drained

2 Hard Boiled Eggs Chopped

Mayo, Salt, Pepper and Dill to Taste

Mix. Chill, and Serve on Your Favorite Bread

[leftynyc]

111. With my grandma (may she rest in peace)

It was always sable on pumpernickel bread. She ate those sandwiches until she was 94.

[cali]

11. very strong vivid post.

It brought tears to my eyes.

[grantcart]

12. thoughtful post, epic understatement, warm glimpse into the pain of a family

It's not like one of them had a fucking swimming pool, and one of them had a go-cart track.

[Maine-ah]

14. K&R

[PoliticalAmazon]

16. Spielberg said in an interview that he learned to read numbers....

from his relatives who would visit. His mother taught kids in their living room. Many of his relatives had, of course, the numbers tatooed on ther forearms, and they would quiz him on his numbers by having him read their tattoos.

Some people, like my father, an American who was a German translator and interviewed some survivors for Army records, although he didn't experience it first-hand, was exposed to some very horrific recountings of what the survivors had experienced.

So many people have suffered from the Holocaust, some a generation or more later. To the day my father died, he had nightmares about his experiences in WWII. He had to keep the radio on at night, which helped some.

To use this for a cheap political slam is heinous.

First the assassination bullshit and now this.

I want the DNC and Hillary to tell me again how extending this primary season is helping our party and its members.

[Bicoastal]

17. Well, Hillary didn't bring it up--only her supporters.

And only here.

[PoliticalAmazon]

30. That makes it better? n/t

[Orangepeel]

35. I believe it was the RNC

I'm an Obama supporter, but I don't blame the Hillary camp for trying to exploit this (at least from what I know). I know from Hardball that it was the RNC who "pounced" on this and some people CLAIMING to be Hillary supporters posted it here along with other stupid shit. Hillary can't be blamed for anonymous posters on a message board for everything they post, even though they often post her talking points.

:hug: to the OP

[aquart]

81. Obama blunders and it's still Hillary's fault?

You are precious, you sweet thing.

[ampad]

18. Thank you for your story

It's just sad that some Hill fans on this board would even try to make this and issue. What does it matter? The man was still a hero and probably suffered for it for years with PTS.

[crankychatter]

20. all of those posts come pre-ignored so I'm not seeing them

thank you for posting

k/r

[formercia]

21. My father was one of the first US troops to reach Dachau

He was OSS attached to the 45th. Division. They were forward recon for the Division. It was too much for him to talk about it as well.

He lived in fear the rest of his life. He and his men shot 175 camp guards and SS at an adjacent training school before they were stopped.

[rockymountaindem]

25. Well, he's a hero in my book

The stuff that amazes me is that people like Eisenhower who visited the camps upon their liberation immediately grasped the importance of publicizing the truth about the Holocaust because they feared that people might later try to write it all off as propaganda. Unfortunately they were correct that people might try to deny the Holocaust in the future :(

[formercia]

65. My father had been in combat since North Africa

He parachuted behind the lines just before D-Day and fought with the French Underground. He saw a lot of horrible things but Dachau was even too much for him to stand.

He feared that he would be prosecuted for what he did.

The down side was that some of these camp guards could have provided evidence against the senior officers who were the real perpetrators.

[formercia]

66. self delete, dupe.

[TrogL]

104. Didn't Walter Cronkite do a war-time interview

saying "I was there - it happened".

[undeterred]

22. I had Holocaust survivors come to a class I was teaching

and talk about their experiences. They were the parents of one of my students. Her father was told to run away and stay in hiding by his own mother when he was a teenager. During the war all of his younger siblings and his parents disappeared. He thinks they were taken to Auschwitz but its not like anyone informed him.

After the war he returned to his home and there were other people living there. He showed the current residents that the sewing machine table had his mothers name carved into it, and they told him to go away and never come back.

He gradually realized that his family was gone. He came to America at 17, with no shoes on his feet.

Its not that the historical details don't matter, but in this story its the emotional content that matters most.

[scarletwoman]

26. "But I do take offense to people trying to use this for Gotcha politics. It's disgusting." Amen.

Thank you very much for writing this.

Peace,
sw

[Robyn66]

27. Bless you!

Thank you for sharing that personal story. My Grandmother was on a trip with her college friends in Europe 1939 (she was very wild for her day) They were in Germany right before the war broke out and I have photographs she took when she was there. I also have letters she sent home where she spoke of the Hitler Youth walking around and seeing the Star of David painted on the door of a certain shop. She wrote about it in a very touristy way which looking at it from our perspective now is very creepy. One of her photos was of the German army and this figure you could barely make out above them. On the back she had written in pencil "Hitler reviewing the troops" She and her friends were all kicked out of Germany. Apparently all Americans were kicked out right before the war broke out. I am so sorry your family went through such horror.

I think that if someone with your family history doesn't think its a big deal that he got the names wrong then who the hell are any of us to criticize him for it.

It seems that there are new lows each day during this campaign. I am looking forward to it being over and all of us moving on to the GE.

[rebel with a cause]

50. it is not like he was talking about

candidates being assassinated in June or about staying in Iraq for a hundred years. Those are gaffes that are scary, this was just a blunder that he needed to correct. No apology neccesary as far aas I am concerned. Of course, I do not have a connection to Hitler's Germany except through those I have met. I was born right after the war ended so I don't remember it. My one uncle served as a cook in the military, but all I know about his service is that I have cousins somewhere in Germany. Nothing to be proud of there.

I grew up in a neighborhood rich with European immigrants. One household consisted of a man and woman who had escaped from a concentration camp. The story was that she was very beautiful and had used a German officer's lust for her and some money they had hidden to get out. I guess she was still pretty because as soon as her husband died she had plenty of suiters, but as a very young girl I just saw her as an old woman. ;)

We had a family, these were not immigrants, that lived a few blocks from us. The brother of the woman of the house had come home with shell-shock and was unable to live a normal life. They fixed a place for him in thier garage to live and we would see him walking back and forth in front of it, wringing his hands as they shook uncontrolably. The children, myself included, were somewhat afraid of him and would cross the street when he was out. His brother-in-law told my father that it really bothered him that people were afraid of him, and that he would not hurt anyone. My father had a talk with us and I didn't cross the street after that but I was still afraid.

When I lived in NYC I knew a man who worked with my then-husband who had survived the concentration camps. The numbers were still stark and dark on his pale arm. He had came out of the camp only to find that his wife and children had all died in the one that they had been sent too. He had been left alone, the only surviving member of his whole family. He had came to the USA and started over. He always gave me and my baby daughter coffee candy. I'm alergic to coffee and babies are not too fond of the taste, but I would take it anyway and thank him for his kindness. He was a really nice older man who would do anything to help other people.

[Bleacher Creature]

28. K&R

[AZBlue]

29. K&R and thank you

for sharing your family's story with us and illustrating so beautifully what's really important to look at in a candidate.

[Maraya1969]

31. Thank you so much for writing this.

I'm kind of at a loss for words so I hope this will suffice. :hug: :grouphug:

[dailykoff]

32. Thank you.

K/R

[Phx_Dem]

34. Shalom

:grouphug:

[lolamio]

36. Well said - a very poignant post.

Thank you. :hug:

[sakura]

37. I'm sorry...

... that your family's history is being used as political fodder. It's sad that people will take one of the most horrific events in world history and attempt to twist it to their advantage. Thank you for sharing your take on things.

If you've ever met someone with PTSD you know that it can take years for such a person to recover enough to talk about their past. Sometimes it never happens. My grandmother is one example. My mom is the fourth of five children. However, she never knew whether her oldest sibling (who died as an infant) was a boy or girl. My grandmother was forced to take care of her own infant and her sister's infant who was severely ill. Her sister's child lived. My grandmother's child caught the illness and died. My grandmother then had what was known at the time as a "nervous breakdown." Apparently she was hospitalized. Things get sketchy from there. Despite treatment, she was NEVER able to talk about what happened, and her children never thought it right to ask her. I don't find it at all strange that Obama wasn't able to get the explicit details from his uncle. The point of his talk was that his uncle didn't get the treatment he needed-- that he locked himself away for an extended time. It makes sense that he, like my grandmother, wouldn't want to talk about what had happened.

[Cha]

39. As usual this says everything about the fucked mediawhores and

nothing about Obama.

Thanks for your story, indenturedebtor.

[Catherina]

40. Your post makes me too sad. I'm so sorry and thank you.

:hug:

[JPZenger]

41. Watch Band of Brothers Episode - True Story of Liberating Camp

The Band of Brothers is an excellent series available on DVD that tells the true story of a company of the 101st Airborne Division in WWII. One of the later episodes shows what is was like for US troops to stumble upon a concentration camp. Information had been leaked to top US and British officials about the concentration camps, but the average US soldier did not know what to expect.

[Barack_America]

43. That was beautiful and touching and heartbreaking.

God bless your family, and I can only pray that they knew great happiness in their lives after surviving that tragedy. And by "knew" I mean, not only were presented with happiness, but were still able to experience it.

:cry:

[Baby Snooks]

44. The survivors remember only the camps...

The survivors do not distinguish between the camps because they were all the same. Those who could work were put to work. Those who were selected because of some physical characteristics were sent off to the hospitals for the experiments. Those who were of no use were sent to the gas chambers. Either at the camp they were originally sent to or at another camp. Whether they worked, were tortured to death through the experiments, or merely gassed to begin with, they were all death camps.

It is disgraceful to call into question the grandfather's having been part of the liberation of the camps simply because the grandson couldn't remember the name of the camp. It does not matter to the survivors. Or to the "second generation" or even, now, the "third generation." None of whom would be here were it not for men like Barack Obama's grandfather.

[ekwhite]

45. Thanks for the post

The fact that one of Obama's uncles helped liberate a concentration camp is amazing. The fact that Obama got them confused is not a big deal to almost anyone. The faux outrage over his gaffe is just more of the "gotcha" politics I have come to abhor over the years.

[razors edge]

47. K&R You have stated the only true

thing that matters, we don't go backwards and discard the values leaned from those times simply because of a small factual error.

But we also must always be open to the discussion of the facts as they did happen. Truth doesn't fear discussion and only weakens it's existence by denying open dialog of an academic and historical nature.

The atrocities will not be diminished by a simple accountants measure of remaining artifact. And even if a greater understanding of what happened might lessen an atrocity here, or increased one there, we all know the movement that created the situation was the problem we need to be wary of in the first damn place.

That is what we must learn from.

[Dystopian]

48. This must have been painful to share.....

Thank you for sharing your family story....So very heartwrenching...
Many of us need to be reminded of what others have endured...


peace & blessings to you and yours...:hug:

[zulchzulu]

49. I'll say a personal prayer to myself for your family that perished

That is just horrible to know that humans can be so evil. And for people to play gotcha politics on such incredibly incomprehensible tragedy is beyond the pale.

I'll reflect on your family that died so horribly. Thanks for sharing this...

[Hawkeye-X]

51. 3rd generation of a Holocaust survivor - actually survived Auschwitz

He told his story on the Shoah - I need to find out if it is possible to caption it for me (my parents wants me to finally hear his story) and he passed away at the age of 94.

Hawkeye-X

[understandinglife]

52. Thank you. Recommended. If we happen to meet someday, I'll tell you ...

... about my great Uncle and his wife -both Catholic - and their roles in the resistance in Lyon, France, and what it cost them.

I am so grateful you shared the horror that your family experienced and your empathy toward Senator Obama that he actually recognizes that horror and is honored by the fact that a member of his family did something to bring it to an end.

Peace,
Bob

[Eurobabe]

53. Agreed, suggest the GOPers get some outrage going over Scottie's

new tell-all book that accuses Bush of lying the US into this needless war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/27/AR2008052703679.html?hpid=topnews">Ex-Press Aide Writes That Bush Misled U.S. on Iraq

[pansypoo53219]

54. this just shows how damaging and stupid war is.

we HAD to go to WW2. we DIDN'T have to bring this horror down on iWaq. georgee IS as bad as hitler. do not agress. defend.
reading a WW1 book right now as well.

which leads to bush related tourettes. war president my ass. occupation preznit.

[Sunnyshine]

55. K&R- The knowledge of their tragedy stays with us. Never to be forgotten.

:hug: Jewish families have been bridging our collective understanding for thousands of years and we all seek to come together through our emotional connections, as a humanity that is ever susceptible to harm and death by the hands of cruel dictators and coward warlords. We keep it present in us because it lives on in our world everyday.

Learning and sharing in our burdens of pain and anger is like a basic element to sentient life. To identify with another's sufferings, is to be aware and act with compassion. Sen.Obama genuinely does that, and his critics use a minor detail as something to jeer about. They are shameless opportunists.

I look forward to showing the naysayers what a real President is like, coming this November. :patriot:

[Indenturedebtor]

57. Thank you all so very much for your own stories and sentiment

I can't tell you how good it feels to be a channel of love from you all to my grandparents.

For me it is very profound to have the wounds of my family soothed by people I don't really know. And it makes me very happy to see Obama lend a personal story to such a great cause. I cannot imagine doing something like that in front of probably 600 million or so people (worldwide).

On PTSD, the effects can be so thoroughly devastating! My Grandfather himself had a heart attack at 37, my Grandmother was pained every minute of every day until she finally passed. She could never find joy in anything. And when you raise children with a debilitating illness like that, you can have dramatic effects on how they see the world! I don't want to air my living relative's dirty laundry, but the line between their issues and my grandparent's illness is a straight one.

I will say though that after hitting about 45 or so my father finally learned to relax a little. He had until then lived his life as an excercise in fear and avoidance. Nearly every choice he made was motivated by fear. He even describes his life that way. He's still like this to an extent, and for my part one of my most noticeable characteristics on getting to know me a little is that I always point out all of the possible/probable negative consequences of an action. For example: "Honey don't turn the fan on, there was asbestos in this house before, and fans are practically grinders with vents at the top for the motor where asbestos likely fell in, and now you want to grind it up and disperse it throughout the room. I dont like those fans anyways. Until we can replace it, lets just go ahead and leave it off. In fact I'll take this wire cutter here and snip the fan control cable just in case someone comes over and doesn't know." :crazy: I think I get that from my father heh. Except I only think and say it... he FEELS the fear. I think he gets that from his parents.

Anyways it is revolting that Obama would be ridiculed over such a petty detail, that was botched for such an understandable reason, in pursuit of such a worthy cause. It is not as though he was grandstanding about how great he is... he was asking for support for our wounded troops in a very personal way. Of couse it didn't hurt to air out some patriotism (lets be honest here), but the end was noble and worthy!

[rucognizant]

84. Have you read.........

Art Spiegelman's Graphic Novel called Maus? About growing up with such a Father.
Highly recommended!

[ruby slippers]

58. very poignant post. And sadly, you can thank Prescott Bush, Dubya's

grandfather, for helping to fund this atrocity. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree and I think the Bush's have always had a secret agenda throughout the succeeding terms of Daddy and Junior. Heaven help us all if Jeb gets in. He will intend to finish what they participated in.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

And, thank Obama's relative for his service, no matter what camp he helped liberate.

Joe Lieberman, you should be ashamed of yourself.....

[Indenturedebtor]

59. Yes imho all Jews should be ashamed of Joe...

He should damn well know better than to support facists.

And I agree it seems that Bushler is using the same damn playbook. I almost cant believe that they're building "internment" camps here in the US! WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!????!?!?!?!?!?!

[ruby slippers]

61. what is scary, too, is that with the mandated ID cards I hear they

want to include your religion on them. Easy to round up? And, DNA databases also make one shiver.

[Indenturedebtor]

62. Include your religion!?!?!?!?! WHAT?!?!

You know what's REALLY fucked up. My wife and I have been considering moving to Germany to join the EU, because we're afraid of where this country is going. If McBoosh "wins" the election, we're going to pack up a few things and go. And I didn't even know about this. They'll come for the gay people and the Latinos first of course.

2 generations later you flee the US for refuge in Germany :crazy:

[ruby slippers]

63. it is only a matter of time.....

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/11/12/egypt17306.htm

http://www.switched.com/2007/08/13/chinese-citizens-getting-tagged-watched/

And, of course this....

In the US, attempts to create high-tech ID cards keep getting bogged down with privacy concerns. In China, however, such concerns don't really cause much pause for the government. Starting this month in the city of Shenzen, residents will begin receiving ID cards fitted with computer chips that contain their home address, work history, background, ethnicity, religion and medical insurance.

The 12.4 million residents of the city will also be constantly under watch by a network of 20,000 cameras currently being installed to track them. These don't include the 180,000 existing private security cameras in the workplace, to which the government will have access.

The systems monitoring the cameras will sport facial-recognition abilities, enabling the government to easily identify criminals and social dissidents. But citizens won't be the only ones being tracked: Police will also wear GPS transmitters so that administrators can monitor their positions in real-time. Should they go out of GPS range, triangulation will be performed based on the towers their cell phones have connected to. Presumably this is to make sure police are safe, or perhaps to find out just how much time they're spending in the Chinese equivalent of the donut shop.

Interestingly, much of the means to support this sort of monitoring comes from Florida, of all places -- a company called China Public Security has developed much of the technology, which is funded largely by American investment banks. So, when such technology is inevitably adopted in the U.S., at least we won't have to go off-shore to buy the stuff.

[DeeDeeNY]

68. Sounds like a George Orwell novel

Very chilling.

[beachmom]

78. The Germans love Obama! Check this out:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,555437,00.html

CRAZY ABOUT BARACK
Obamamania Infects Germany

By Ralf Beste

Berlin political circles -- both liberal and conservative -- are fawning over US presidential candidate Barack Obama. Many in Germany see him as a cross between John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr., but expectations may be exaggerated.

(Foreign Minister - ed) Frank-Walter Steinmeier had hoped to meet personally, but Barack Obama has a lot on his plate at the moment and Germany's foreign minister had to make do with a telephone conversation with the presidential candidate during his recent visit to Washington. Still, that's all it took to stir Steinmeier's enthusiasm for the candidate.

The American may be deep in the midst of a campaign, but members of Steinmeier's entourage told SPIEGEL that Obama's foreign policy questions were very engaged, and he peppered his conversation with questions about the German foreign minister's views on Russia, Iran and Afghanistan.

The conversation lasted about 15 minutes and was very focused. Obama's rhetorical "cruising altitude," was apparently quite high, an advisor to Steinmeier said. At the end of the conversation, the Democratic presidential candidate promised to come to Germany as soon as possible.

The few minutes spent on the telephone gave Steinmeier the impression that Obama is prepared to fundamentally reconsider the course of US foreign policy. Steinmeier was impressed, and only a day later he publicly outed himself as the senator's latest fan. "Yes we can," the minister, not known for his emotional outbursts, chanted, evoking Obama's campaign slogan during a speech at Harvard University. Steinmeier used the term to express his desire for a renewal of trans-Atlantic relations.

'Germany Is Obamaland'

But the foreign minister hasn't been alone in his admiration for the candidate -- Berlin has been teeming with Obamamania for weeks now. Even conservatives are taken by the Democrat. After the Bush era, Chancellor Angela Merkel of the conservative Christian Democrats can easily imagine working together with a liberal Democrat in the White House. And Norbert Röttgen, chief whip for the Christian Democrats in parliament, sees Obama as the messenger of a new wave of politics that could also provide a model for Germany.

"Germany is Obamaland," says Karsten Voigt, the German government's coordinator for trans-Atlantic relations. He says Germans see the African-American senator as a kind of "mixture of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr."

People are projecting their hopes and dreams on Obama, adds Constanze Stelzenmüller of the German Marshall Fund in Berlin. He's perceived here as peace-loving and cooperative, and those are the kind of traits Germans admire in a foreign politician.

Obama's Republican contender John McCain (more...) is viewed with greater skepticism in Berlin, where the 71-year-old Vietnam veteran is considered by many to be a Cold War relic. McCain, for example, announced that he wanted to kick Russia out of the G-8 and instead found a "League of Democracies" that, in emergencies, could also circumvent the United Nations around the world. Those aren't the kind of words that get a warm welcome in Germany.

McCain is not an unknown quantity in Germany, either. As a dyed in the wool trans-Atlanticist, he regularly participates in the annual Munich Security Conference. The senator has a reputation there for his sharp attacks against German politicians -- his fits of rage are feared and his political positions are known because of the numerous debates he has taken part in.

OMG.

[ruby slippers]

120. yeah, but he isn't funding them like the Bushes.......or his followers...

[aquart]

82. Don't forget Joseph Kennedy, sweetie.

Because that darling was fascist to the bone.

[Swagman]

60. I sat in on a Holocaust couple recording interviews for a book

their memories of what happened were very hazy at times even before they both went to separate camps. The weeks leading up to the days before they were taken away..times became exaggerated or compressed. They forget major details and remembered minor ones and vehemently disagreed about some events that you would think a person could never forget.

It became quite apparent just how traumatized this couple really were and obviously had never really had any sort of help or treatment for the horrendous anguish they had been through. One could remember the exact details down to facial descriptions of a kinder Nazi jailer or the most vicious but forgot the name of her closest friend who died within 2 weeks in the camp.

The saddest thing-my journalist friend who was writing their story told me that the whole experience of getting them to re-tell their life was just too much for them. After all the years of living together-then being apart in camps and the horror-of surviving and finding each other again and the sort of guilt that survivors can feel..the couple split up when he finished writing the book. That was the result..this couple finally fell apart in their late 70's.

So anyone wanting to give a kick to Obama for a making a minor mistake should just go get a fucking life !!

[fudge stripe cookays]

64. I am so sorry for your family's loss.

As a massive genealogy fanatic and documenter of my family history, stories such as this wound me deeply. I'm as goy as they get, and I know that no matter what I say, I could never begin to understand.

I have a book on planning a family reunion, where a Jewish family in Chicago who had been told they were "the only ones left" began researching more on their name. They eventually found other survivors in South America, who then told them that there were some in Israel, who put them in touch with some in Skandinavia....and now they meet regularly, even as far apart as they are. It a miracle that they could find each other. They didn't want to lose the others ever again. I cried while reading this amazing story, because I couldn't imagine not knowing what happened to half my family, but knowing down deep that they had all been murdered.

I don't give a crud what camp it was either. Here is a hug. :hug: Mazel tov, friend.

[uponit7771]

69. WORD!!

[LeftishBrit]

70. I am so sorry to hear of your family's loss..

and agree that such tragedies should not be used for petty politics. I didn't even know this was happening, but if it is, it's disgusting.

[DemVet]

71. I'm very sorry about your family...

...but Gotcha Politics is a game played by both teams.

:beer:

[Scurrilous]

73. Thanks for posting this.

K & R :thumbsup:

[WillyT]

75. Excellent Post !!! - K & R !!!

Thank you for that.

:grouphug:

[BrklynLib at work]

76. Intelligent, thoughtful and heartfelt post. Thanks.

[racaulk]

77. Thank you for posting this.

K&R

[aquart]

80. I don't know which camp either.

That's because the meticulous records were in German and millions of them haven't yet been transcribed. Did you check the Shoah list? If there is no record of your family, fill out the forms so their names won't be entirely lost.

But that's different from not knowing your great-uncle's war record. Most people barely even know their great uncles. To know the history of your family, you actually have to be interested, to ask questions, you have to ask these old, decrepit people the story of their lives. And pay attention when they answer.

Of course it's no biggie that Obama doesn't know this story. He's had a busy life. He was in Hawaii and who knows where his great uncle was while he was growing up or later. Did he ever even meet the man?

But in his desperate need to prove Jewish voters have no reason to fear his candidacy, his researchers found this GEM of family history: his great uncle was one of the people who liberated a notorious concentration camp. Does Obama know if the man had nightmares from it? Many of the liberators did. Did the researcher find that out? I don't listen to Obama so I wouldn't know if he added in that detail.

The name of the camp really is unimportant. I'd like to believe, though, that Obama knows the name of his great uncle. I'd like to believe that, unlike his supporters, he has some real understanding of what his uncle and his uncle's generation endured. But I don't.

[beachmom]

87. Well, it is clear that Obama was told this story, perhaps from his grandparents who cared for him

when his Mom went to Indonesia:

I had a uncle who was one of the, who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz and liberate the concentration camps, and the story in our family was is that when he came home, he just went up into the attic and he didn’t leave the house for six months, right. Now obviously something had really affected him deeply but at that time there just weren’t the kinds of facilities to help somebody work through that kind of pain. That’s why you know the, this idea of making sure that every single veteran when they are discharged are screened for post traumatic stress disorder and given the mental health services that they need, that’s why its so important."

I would put this under the heading of "oral family history" which oftentimes has some factual errors, while the story itself is true. I disagree with you that Obama was trying to get the Jewish vote with this remark. He actually was talking about PTSD, and how his uncle had a tough time with what he saw. He talked about it on Memorial Day. The great uncle is still alive, and is quite elderly, so I do hope people leave him alone. The Obama campaign tried to leave his name out of it, but within an hour the press figured out who it was.

[slackmaster]

86. Thank you.

Peace be with you.

[LibertyLover]

88. 40 or so years later, I still vividly remember the day the

Holocaust became real to me. I was on a girl scouts trip to a local amusement park (the old Palisades Park as a matter of fact). The mother of one of my friends was there as a chaperon. We were sitting in bleachers under a tent watching some circus performers and Mrs. Schwartz, who was sitting in the row below the one I was in, reached up to pass something to one of the girls in my row. Her sleeve fell back and I saw the tattoo on her arm. I had read history books and watched programs on tv about World War 2 and the Holocaust, but this was a shock, that someone I knew, and had known since I was 5 years old and in kindergarten, had a connection to that time. Mrs. Schwartz died a few years later, still a comparatively young woman. We were just out of junior year in high school when it happened. She had liver damage from her years in the concentration camp and it eventually killed her. But were she alive today, I would not think of asking her what camp she was in. Her family might know, but it's not an issue for me - all I need to know is that I knew a Holocaust survivor and that the Holocaust happened. I'm proud that a relative of Senator Obama's helped liberate a camp. One of my relatives tried but got captured on D-Day and was interned for the duration - and no, I don't know what Stalag he was in.

[hisownpetard]

89. K&R for this thoughtful post. Thank you.

[Hepburn]

90. My Dad was an MP in Germany at the end of WWII

I have his photo album and there are pictures of him at one of the concentration camps with other soldiers in his unit. I have no clue which camp and I never asked because he still was pained years later at what he saw. So because I have no clue exactly where those pictures were taken, that does not make it a bad statement or a false statement when I say he was there. My dad is dead and gone, but if he were still here, there is no way I would ask about what he saw or where he saw it. I just know what he saw when he was there because of the pained reactions he had when anything was brought up.

My mother's family is Jewish and Gypsy backgroud and luckily her parents who were both born in Romania left there to immigrate to the United States long before Hitler came to power. Although I was not raised a Jew and my mother was not raised a Jew, there was enough Jewish and Gypsy blood in our family that members of our family, too, would have been rounded up and sent away by Hitler if my grandparents had remained in Romania. Members of the family who remained in Romania were lost during this horrific time caused by Hilter because of having both Jewish and Gypsy blood.

Do I care if Barack got the name wrong of a place where his great uncle helped out to liberate and aid those who Hilter wished to destroy? I cannot imagine how or why anyone would even bring up that the uncle was in one concentration camp and not another. What small minds some people must have.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

91. i agree.

[me b zola]

93. Shalom

:grouphug:

[barbtries]

94. thank you for writing this,

even though i don't know what you're talking about. apparently obama got a name wrong.

my ex-mother-in-law was 13 or 14 years old in Czechoslovakia when the nazis came for her family. although none of her three sons ever, ever talked about the holocaust around her, one day she sat and spoke to me about her experience there. she was a change of life baby, and her parents were older, in their 50's. she offered that her father was not well and probably would have died soon, but her mother was healthy. no matter, they were gassed directly after getting off the train at auschwitz. she had sisters who had young children of their own; they, too, and their babies, murdered immediately upon arrival.

she and her two sisters (a brother also survived and to my knowledge still remains in Europe somewhere) survived. she told me that every day the people would come through and if a person was looking unhealthy or weak, they would be pulled out and murdered. the three young girls would pinch each others' cheeks, she told me, so they would look well and not be killed.

they were moved to another camp shortly before being liberated by the americans. like your grandparents, she made her way to israel and eventually to the US. her tattoo remains though illegible.

i believe that one result of her days of real hunger is that - at least while i knew her, if not to this day - she could not get enough food. i don't mean that she ate excessively, but that her pantry was always full. she had so much food in her house that a closet in the living room was also filled with it.

for twenty years she worked in manhattan and lived in brooklyn: when i visited there and spent one day on the train at rush hour i wondered how she could stand that every day, day in day out, because it reminded me of nothing more than the trains full of the condemned jews during the holocaust.

we didn't get along during my (relatively short) marriage to her son. after she retired i spoke with her once and it was the only time i can say that she seemed really happy. my daughter was the girl she never had. i will always think that fate has been especially cruel to my ex MIL, because she survived the loss of most of her family in the holocaust then years later another murder robs her of her first and favorite grandchild. not fair.

i've probably gone completely off the rails with regard to what the issue is that you posted about. but i wanted to share this story as well. thanks

[Indenturedebtor]

95. Thank you for sharing your story. What Obama did was

Basically relate a story about how his great-uncle has helped liberate a concentration camp, which had contributed to his PTSD, for which he recieved no treatment. Obama then of course insisted that vets get better care (promoted his HEART bill). The Right Wing and some HRC supporters tore him a new one over getting the name of the camp wrong.

My Bubba was the same way with teh food hording. My father still is heh. Giant pantry full of food, two freezers, etc. It's never too much!


I'm very truly sorry for the loss of your daughter :hug:

[barbtries]

97. thank you

i wondered if the food thing was unique, and am not surprised to hear that it is not. sometimes i miss a meal and say i'm starving. the victims of the holocaust knew true hunger in a way we cannot even imagine.

[leftynyc]

112. Not at all unique

Both my grandmas (may they rest in peace) always had packed houses when it came to food. All they would say was that they hoped and prayed I would never know real hunger.

[zonkers]

96. Confusing death camps? Please. Not a big flub. In fact, the flub may serve to

keep the story of Obama's grandfathers service in the news cycle a bit longer. My family's story mirrors Encumbered's (the O.P.) story. We come from Romania. The death camp, Transnisteria, though not a famous one, was particularly savage because they were extremely low tech. My great grandparents saw the storm coming. Though poor farmers, they and their siblings pooled finances and collectively sent the children over to the U.S. one at a time, youngest first. It cost a bundle. They got about five over when the shit hit the fan. Everyone else -- older cousins and parents perished in a lesser known but Transnisteria. My grandmother built a beautiful life for herself here. She had kids and worked till she was seventy. That woman could not read but she had plenty of Romanian Country wisdom. I wish she had lived till I was a bit older. I never had a chance to talk to her about it. The generational psychological damage of Genocide is horrible reality. My heart goes out to all families victimized by genocide.

[mzmolly]

98. I've met many survivors.

I have never asked "which camp were you in?"

As you eloquently point out, the horrors were present in all of them.

K and R #166

Thank you.

[4dsc]

99. Remember the Holocaust was about more than just Jews

12 million gentiles also lost their lives because of the Holocaust including my grandfathers' 4 brothers and one sister. They were Polish and not jews..

[Indenturedebtor]

105. Indeed. And it wasn't only the Germans who did the killing.

Millions massacred in Russia, hundreds of thousands raped, tortured, murdered in China, and more.

I am sorry for your families loss as well :hug:

I wasn't writing this to be a holocaust sympathy post but to relate to what Obama said about his Uncle's sacrifice, and how the RW and the media tried to jump down his throat over it. I can imagine myself saying something like "A genocide of 2 generations ago affects my family to this very day. We as a nation should put a stop to genocide anywhere it appears. I remember hearing about my Grandmother breaking free from Dachau." And then a bunch of asshats focus on small details of my story being off instead of the larger issue.

Just disgusting.

[LSK]

100. Thank you for writing this

What Obama said was true, he had little detail wrong, but nobody is accusing Obama's uncle of not liberating any camps. The important part is he witnessed a camp like that firsthand and it shook him for the rest of his life. The name of the camp is really irrelevant.

[yardwork]

101. My father-in-law helped liberate a work camp in Germany.

I have no idea which work camp because I didn't ask because it was so difficult for him to tell his family anything at all about the experience, the name of the specific camp really didn't seem relevant.

I have no idea what happened to my former father-in-law while he served on the front lines in WWII. I do know that he went to war a devout Catholic 18 year old, and returned as an atheist who could not bear to discuss most of what he'd seen.

I think it's entirely possible that Obama's grandfather was similarly reticent. It's outrageous to suggest that just because family members are a little unsure of the specific place names for the horrific scenes their relative witnessed, somehow all that suffering no longer counts!

Outrageous. Thank you for your post. I'm very sorry about what happened to your family.

[Muttocracy]

102. thank you for writing this. nt

[Strawman]

103. Excellent, moving post

I too abhor stupid political arguments that trivialize the Holocaust, whether it's something like this example of lame "gotcha politics" or the more common tactic of labeling some political opponent as "Hitler."

[Rosa Luxemburg]

106. I don't know why this is being highlighted by the press?

[Alameda]

107. My father is a US Marine WWII vet

who was in the Pacific. I never knew until recently that he was in the battle of Iwo Jima. Only recently did I find out that he was two miles out of Hiroshima. He never talks about it. He was in the Occupation Forces, the first to be in Japan. It's just something you know not to go near. He had great respect for the Japanese....and I feel a great sadness from him about the whole thing.

When my brother died in a automobile accident at the age of 17, my father said, "at least he didn't have to go to Vietnam"

[Divine Discontent]

108. thank you for this, and your message is great.

I think it's disgusting they're treating it like he lied about the whole thing, instead of getting the locale mixed up of something that really did occur.


New Obama Items Weekly!
www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable

[Irishonly]

109. Several Years Ago

I heard two Holocaust survivors tell what happened to them and their families and it was the heart wrenching stories I ever heard. I don't think anyone can come close to understanding their pain. Senator Obama was correct historically and people should not judge.

[petgoat]

113. The Jews Did 9/11. Silverstein Admitted They Blew Up Building 7.

Sorry for the inflammatory title.

My point is this: Infiltrators in the 9/11 Truth movement have
tried to shift discussion of the real issues to an antisemitic
agenda.

Responsible Truthers repudiate this bullshit at every opportunity.

[petgoat]

114. Dupe Post. The previous got caught up in mods, so I altered. nt

[David Zephyr]

115. Never Again.

I truly appreciate your taking the time to write what you did and to share it here.

The more I have learned in my life about the Holocaust, it seems the more there is to learn and more importantly, how it must never be allowed to be forgotten or made light of.

I have been to Dachau and I can not nor ever forget that shaking experience as long as I live. Never.

My companion and I also have visited Yad Vashem in Jerusalem which I wish every human on earth could also visit.

Here in Los Angeles we are fortunate to have the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Museum of Tolerance where nearly 1/2 million visit every year to learn about the Holocaust.

Thank you for your very moving post, Indenturedebtor.

Shalom.

[Major Hogwash]

116. Kick

[petgoat]

119. Me too. nt

[apocalypsehow]

121. My maternal grandmother was Jewish, and although she was born in the U.S. a good number of her first

cousins perished in the Holocaust. After the war, the few familial survivors of that horror made their way to Israel by way of my great-grandfather's home in Chicago (well, a suburb of Chicago, anyway).

After my grandfather died, she emigrated to Israel herself. It's kinda funny, even though my mom and her siblings were raised Roman Catholic (as was I), my Mama always considered all of us Jewish. She would say to me and my cousins at get-togethers, "When are you boys going to settle down with a nice Jewish girl?" or vice-versa with the girls.

I know this has nothing to do with your OP, really, just remembering out loud.

K & R.