Final totals: Hillary Clinton won the popular vote

[rodeodance]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html


Final totals: Hillary Clinton won the popular vote

Obama
17,869,542
47.4%

Clinton
18,046,007
47.9%

---

Clinton
+176,465
+0.5%


Includes all primary and caucus states and other units fielding
delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention in Denver,
Colorado.

Does not include votes for other presidential preferences that passed
15%+ vote and are thus entitled under DNC rules to delegates: Edwards,
Uncommitted

[jgraz]

1. Hillary who?

:shrug:

[rodeodance]

10. that strong Democrat who has done much for her country

[jgraz]

12. Not unless that country is HillaryLand.

Or maybe, WalMartistan.

[cliffordu]

61. OR, maybe....

[jgraz]

64. Lucky for us, Obama seems to be reclaiming much of Dumbfuckistan

They'll be left with WV and Kentucky.

[cliffordu]

71. He IS like a one man Panzer invasion, Inn't he??

I just HAD to use that graphic..... :hi:

[jgraz]

73. I beg to differ. He's a great leader, but WE are the fucking infantry.

That's what I like the most about his message and John Edwards' message. Bottom-up politics.

[Mezzo]

270. doing all you can to alienate your side of the aisle isn't going to bode very well for him

but you should already know that. I bet you Barack Obama doesn't DARE say those things about Hillary Clinton. He. doesn't. DARE.

And I am oh, so sure he'd approve of you right now. :yoiks:

[jgraz]

308. I don't need Obama's approval. He needs mine.

And he has it.

As for the bitter dead-enders, I sure as hell want to alienate them. Sure it might cost us DOZENS of votes in the fall, but I think we'll survive.

[rodeodance]

312. I wonder if they know??

[Vattel]

248. thanks, that was a good laugh n/t

[JoFerret]

294. Why?

.

[iiibbb]

230. I wish people would dump the negativity

Speaking as someone who lives in a swing state. I hope you realize that maps like this are what make Democrats seem elitist and make you lose the swing states.

Why don't people take Obama's lead... it's a 50-state campaign.

[Mezzo]

271. negativity is all jgraz has got.

[Boz]

Ill bite, I think Hillary is a good politician, but what has she DONE.

I dont mean that mean, but in response to this post I would like to know what she has done.

[Mezzo]

272. Got more legislation passed as a junior senator than any other in history. Has Obama held EVEN ONE

meeting on the cmmtte he chairs? We know the answer is no.

[Mezzo]

287. What has Barack Obama 'DONE'?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

93. If each of those voters would give HIllary $1 dollar, she could retire her campaign debt

they don't even have to sell their video games and bicycles.

[Mezzo]

275. except that Obama will do that for her, and you know it.

[JoFerret]

295. He should

Least he can do. I hope for more however.

[Carolina]

171. like what?!

I could have supported her if she shown half as much fight against Bush as she did against a fellow Dem, but nooooooooooooooo, HRC went along with BushCo on the war and never stopped doing the politically expedient, rather than morally right, thing.

[Mezzo]

289. a strong democrat. Obama said he would have voted for the war had he seen the intelligence

You guys are going to need to wrap your head around the truth.

[AuntPatsy]

214. I agree...people seem to forget so easily...

[Obamaniac]

163. I'm guessing you're still counting Michigan as zero for Obama

Because Obama has zero support in Michigan. Yep.

How disingenuous of you.

[undeterred]

178. Its called Hillary math.

Makes up its own rules. :shrug:

[NotThisTime]

194. Yes zero in MI & no caucus states

Even these numbers do not include Citizens abroad or the Virgin Islands which he won with 60% of the vote...

Yup, Hillary won the popular vote, NOT!

[JoFerret]

276. One suggestion to help with your question

might be to read Gail Collins in the NYTimes today. Not that it is such a great column but because - if you were to read it with the intention of learning something (rather than crowing and gloating) you might expand your world view, enlarge your sympathies, and help the democrats win across the board in November.

[Mz Pip]

2. How can it include the caucus states

since some of them didn't report popular vote totals?

[PatGund]

55. The link she cites

Has six sets to try and figure out the popular vote. Three of those sets contain estimates for caucus states.

Three of those sets (1, 2 and 6) also show an Obama win as well.

[WeDidIt]

172. Which means NOBODY won the popular vote

because nobody ahs a fucking clue what the popular vote is.

[PatGund]

206. Pretty much so, yes

[merh]

56. You need to use the right set of numbers

That's including Michigan and everyone knows Obama wasn't on the ballot.

If you give the uncommitted voters of Michigan to Obama, as if he were on the ballot, and estimate the votes in Iowa, Nevada, Maine and Washington, he wins the popular vote.

Obama 18,107,710 48.1%
Hillary 18,046,007 47.9%

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Of course some hillary supporters don't like honesty or the rules and just pick and choose as it suits them.

[barb162]

78. Since you have no idea what uncommitteds had in mind, why should they go to Obama?

[jgraz]

86. We know one thing: they sure as fuck didn't want Hillary.

You don't turn out in subzero weather to vote "Uncommitted" if you're a little iffy on your opposition.

[Mezzo]

288. I supported Edwards and I sure as fuck didn't want Obama...why should my vote go to him?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

88. It makes more sense than the completely

undemocratic process of having one major name on the ballot

[onetwo]

127. Since the talking point is "respecting the will of the people..."

...do you think 0 votes for Obama represents the will of Michigan voters?

It's a bit hypocritical to cry that the rules be followed in order to deny Obama votes while simultaneously trying to bend other rules to get delegates seated for Clinton.

The reality is this: We KNOW that those 200,000+ voters were NOT voting for Clinton. Obama is the only other candidate; therefore, he gets them. If anyone has a problem with that, then let the DNC stick to their original ruling.

[VolcanoJen]

139. Does it not bother you that they showed up to vote *against* Hillary?

That's it in a nutshell, is it not?

[merh]

181. LOL - sure, I know what they had in mind, they voted AGAINST

Hillary.

[coyotespaw]

152. "This one’s tricky. You have to use imaginary numbers, like eleventeen "

I believe that's an appropriate quote, considering all the Calvinball we've had to play to get where we are...

[MadBadger]

3. Noted.

[jgraz]

7. She also had the nicest manicure for most of the primaries.

Too bad we don't choose our nominee based on fingernails.

[SoFlaJet]

213. This Is A Call-Foo Fighters

Fingernails are pretty
Fingernails are good
Seems that all they ever wanted was a marking

[Vattel]

249. You are a liar!

Anyone who has seen Obama's pretty fingernails knows that Clinton can't compete.

[Mezzo]

273. kewl.

[Ashy Larry]

4. So, its pretty clear then.

She ran a terribly inept campaign. She should have realized that delegates decide the nomination. Good thing she lost, she probably doesn't understand the electoral college either.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Final totals: Obama won the nomination by a lot.

Where will you stand?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

215. No, he didn't! He won by an extremely narrow margin

Who *won* the popular vote is basically irrelevant. The two important facts are coming out of this process are:

1) Obama won just (only just) over half the delegates; as such, he is the presumptive nominee, and the only thing that stands between us and John McCain, and we (or, rather, you - the next election here won't be till 2010 or so) need to support him.

But also

2) Clinton won either just over or only just under half the popular vote (which is irrelevant), and therefore

2a)Obama desperately needs her and her supporters backing
2b)She and - crucially, on DU - her supporters have just as much right to be respected as Democrats as Obama's supporters do.

[democrattotheend]

6. Depends which count you use

And I don't see those #'s anywhere on RCP, so I am not sure where you got them. If you count all 50 states he wins. She's only ahead if you give him 0 votes from Michigan or give him the uncommitteds but discount the 4 caucus states. Since Clinton supporters feel so strongly that you can't pick a nominee from 48 states, I don't see how you pick one from 46.

[Kittycat]

8. What are you smoking tonight?

I want to make sure to avoid it... Sounds like a scary trip you're on.

[sfam]

9. So...she needed Michigan to "win" the popular vote, ey?

OK, sure... go with that. History will be putting a very large asterisk on that of course...

[opstachuck]

11. With 0 votes for Obama in Michigan...

any reasonable person says she still loses. get a brain

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[rodeodance]

99. your post is beyond rude and childish school-yard bully behavior

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mystieus]

89. True.

[Danger Mouse]

13. no she didn't.

[MadBadger]

15. You win Rodeo. I concede. Hillary Clinton has cleary won.

[Clovis Sangrail]

16. and only includes Mi votes for Hillary /nt

:eyes:

[StrongBad]

17. You do realize...

...that this tally only works if you include the state in which Obama wasn't even on the ballot.

Nice try.

[cbc5g]

18. Pure spin ... Epic Fail -- He didn't campaign in Florida and had 0 votes in Michigan

Because he followed the rules unlike Hillary

Puerto Rico doesn't even vote in the GE anyways so.... Hillary lost by all measures, get over it.

[rodeodance]

254. too bad. and PR counts

[mcctatas]

19. Says who???

when I clicked your link I saw 3 ways that Obama won and 3 that Clinton won....
of course, not that you really care about people having ALL the facts....


State Date Obama Clinton Spread

Popular Vote Total 17,535,458 48.1% 17,493,836 48.0% Obama +41,622 +0.1%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 17,869,542 48.2% 17,717,698 47.8% Obama +151,844 +0.4%

Popular Vote (w/MI) 17,535,458 47.4% 17,822,145 48.1% Clinton +286,687 +0.8%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 17,869,542 47.4% 18,046,007 47.9% Clinton +176,465 +0.5%

Popular Vote (w/MI
Uncommitted to Obama)** 17,773,626 48.0% 17,822,145 48.1% Clinton +48,519 +0.1%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 18,107,710 48.1% 18,046,007 47.9% Obama +61,703 +0.2

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

20. How's that popular vote argument working out for ya?

[jgraz]

104. Well, it's generating plenty of attention for rodeo, so I'd say the goal has been met.

[MethuenProgressive]

21. Even the rabidly anti-Clinton RCP admits it?

Too bad the Democratic Party isn't Democratic.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. Get over it. There is still time.

[dchill]

29. Go to the link.

See for yourself. The top two lines show Obama winning the popular vote, if you don't count Michigan.

[FlyingSquirrel]

74. They are a RW site and want to cause trouble among Democrats.

Plain and simple.

Obama got no fewer than 25.67% in any state - that 25.67% was in WV where he barely campaigned and Hillary campaigned heavily, while Edwards was on the ballot. Giving him that same percentage in MI (he got 32.93% in FL) Obama still wins the popular vote. Giving him zero votes in MI is not a valid premise.

[MethuenProgressive]

220. Not all rabidly anti-Clinton sites are RW, FlyingSquirrel.

www.democraticunderground.com

[FlyingSquirrel]

238. Back in December, 71% of DU agreed with me about RealClearPolitics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3872266

[rodeodance]

255. such a deal

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[Asgaya Dihi]

147. Democratic?

The only way to come to a "she won" conclusion is to include the State where he wasn't even on the ballot and their own courts invalidated the primary, the one where the State party in question decided the proper and most representative fix was the split they ended up with at the RBC meeting. If we're going to count votes there then split the votes cast by those proportions.

Claiming she won in that way is only "democratic" in the same sense that Saddam won all of his elections, as the only one on the ballot. That ain't democracy.

It was close, granted, but she fell a little short. Time to move on.

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dchill]

22. The TOP TWO lines from YOUR link...

Popular Vote Total
Obama
17,535,458
48.1%
Clinton
17,493,836
48.0%
Obama +41,622 +0.1%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA*
Obama
17,869,542
48.2%

Clinton
17,717,698
47.8%
Obama +151,844 +0.4%

Guess it depends on how you sift the data... Oh, and Obama won on Tuesday night!

:hi:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[rodeodance]

102. If you have other numbers from a website- then post them and stop calling me a lier.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

183. Your own link exposes your mendacity.

You deliberately ommitted the data that disputes your claim. That is deliberately misleading, a form of lying.

[Mezzo]

290. so the links here claiming he won the popular vote using the same link is just as offensive to you,

right?



crickets.

[Warren Stupidity]

304. Wrong

There are posts here in response to the OP that point out that the same link or other sources indicate that Obama had more popular votes depending on how one counts the votes. They are in response to the OP's claim, which was presented as if it were definitive. They illustrate that these claims are anything but definitive. Nobody but the Clinton campaign (the ex-Clinton campaign) and assorted outside shit-stirrers are pushing the popular vote bullshit, as reasonable people who have looked into this know that there actually is no proper official tally of the popular vote and that the popular vote is not the metric by which nominations are decided.

:roaches:

[muryan]

57. Caucuses don't count

Only soviet style elections do

[truedelphi]

92. But he better - just better - be ready on Day One.

And he darn well better show up on the steps of the Capital Building on January 20th, or you know who will be there trying to take his place!!

[OzarkDem]

199. No kidding

I'm so worried we (Dems) are on our way to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. We've become quite adept at it.

[VolcanoJen]

140. Oh, how amusing it is, when a poster's own citation disputes the claim.

:rofl:

[babylonsister]

158. Oopsie! She left that out? Just an unfortunate oversight, I'm sure.

:eyes:

[bridgit]

23. I'd like to see America give Democracy a chance some day...

Who can say for sure, it might even work :patriot:

[hfojvt]

96. and Democracy, to Tsarina and her supporters

means elections with only one name on the ballot. Sounds kinda Russian to me. Thank goodness the OP is here with the Pravda.

[bridgit]

105. Da Comrade! Pravda!!

[Zhade]

132. It did work. That's why Obama is our nominee.

Will you support him?

[bridgit]

221. If you think you are going to push me into a corner and shake me down...

you can blow that nonsense out your ass http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6295692&mesg_id=6297041 Obama, and everybody followed the process rather intensely and crowed over every single zig & zag wow...that's not just a short attention span being mere hours from it all; that's no memory whatsoever: is the nominee by way of super delegation. As I have posted elsewhere...

I am against the electoral college and want to see it dissolved, I am against super delegation, and as well super majorities and the like. The extent to which the power structure persuades you into accepting such encroachments upon Democracy is the extent to which you are willing to concede key facets Democracy back to and for the sole usage of that power structure itself imo of course, but you're an american, think what you will

[Mezzo]

274. it worked when Katherine Harris pulled it out for W, do you support your president?

what a fucking lame thing to say.

[OzarkDem]

192. Agree!

The US becomes more like a 3rd world country. Especially disheartening to see the Democratic Party in the business of stealing elections.

[SwampG8r]

205. you need medication

[bridgit]

300. I'm sorry but these are not proper replies, "keep off the booze" "you're incoherent" "you need meds"

To other DUer's that have opinions of their own. They're lazy, and skirt the rules by attempting to fly beneath the radar. Now...

If even some DUer's feel the previous election cycles were not 'nuanced' out of the hands of Democrats by republican shenanigans and that further, Dems are sick & tired of the death & chaos wrought upon the world by republican dirty tricks and that as a resultant Dems are FINALLY more willing to play the game to place a viable candidate in the oval office upon a foundational shift of political fortunes even at a time when the game is ours to lose...(?)...

Then they are those "some DUer's" that are ripe themselves for review & pharmacological regimen

[SwampG8r]

309. he accuses the democratic party of stealing elections

he needs medication

[dchill]

234. I must say to you, respectfully, that you will either...

get over your rationalizations for Clinton's defeat, or you will move on from DU. There is no evidence of "the Democratic Party in the business of stealing elections." And, on a Democratic discussion board, it's just not productive. I sincerely recommend that you confront the true reasons for your state of disheartenment.

[mckeown1128]

25. If you aren't giving any votes from MI to Obama then

this popular vote total is meaningless. Your trying to make the claim that this represents the will of the voters.... yet I find it hard to believe that no one in MI supports Obama. Since we know that isn't true...what is the purposs of trying to "calculate" votes?

[PseudoIntellect]

26. You didnt count TX caucus, NE primary, and WA primary.

And you gave Obama zero votes in MI in an election where everyone was told it wouldn't count and GOP turnout was higher than the Dems. Yet you didn't count an election that was highly contested. If you're going to count MI, then WA and NE primaries should also count, since in all of those states, they were told it wouldn't count.

What does this arguing stuff mean? that popular vote is debatable. It is unofficial. It's an obscure, useless metric that doesn't work in any meaningful way when combining caucuses and primaries. It's not part of the rules. It's useless.

[bridgit]

40. If 'the popular vote' is so useless, then why do we bother to print up all those ballots?

Not to mention the expense. Just enable, then hand, some tribunal of learned peeps :eyes: some brain trust, or legion of doom the duty of picking everything under the sun for us. What's wrong with that?

[sandnsea]

85. We were electing delegates n/t

[bridgit]

100. Ah yes, the Talmudic splitting of hairs; yet ballots were still printed, dollars still spent...

for some semblance of 'a popular vote'. Call it whatever suits you. Tallies were gathered. People voted. Were it to have been positioned otherwise, other than Democracy In Action; many more would not have bothered to show up imo, and this all could have been avoided with a wink and a nod and a handful of plane tickets to Denver :thumbsup:

Popular vote in each state, granted, such as it is, drives the delegate count; not the other way around

[jgraz]

106. Do you have even the barest understanding of US Civics?

Hint: it's not a car made by Honda.

[bridgit]

222. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6297847&mesg_id=6300652

[VolcanoJen]

141. Splitting of hairs? It's called "getting it."

It's why Clinton lost the nomination during that post-Super Tuesday rout.

"Ready on Day One to blow an election."

[bridgit]

223. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6297847&mesg_id=6300652

[VolcanoJen]

229. Intelligent, rational response.

Blow it out our asses, eh? :eyes:

Were you fighting the way we allocate delegates in our party back in 2007, when Hillary appeared to be inevitable? Did you write letters to the DNC; did you get angry at Harold Ickes for signing off on this system back then?

Didn't think so.

[bridgit]

233. It's just the new machine, dear, tinker with it as you will

If you are all for badgering people into your position i.e. "Are you going to vote for him!?" "Are you going to vote for him!?" "Are you going to vote for him!?" the only thing missing is what's really on your mind. Or the mind of your parrot.

It didn't work out well for Harold, the poor dear, but anyone that didn't see that mess coming was off in la-la land

As it stands right now, there's more work to be done than a template of 'poetry over prose' is able to sustain. The screaming cheers will need be subsided in due course and that clock is ticking too. But if you think people are willing to be played from the left as they've been played from the right these last several years, my thought is that you are mistaken.

Yea! For you writing letters, still...you guys will need to be imo far more accommodating to capture any further what you think you already have. I am only in a position to suggest that you should have started a couple minutes ago. By moving outside your perpetual campaign mode, and into the broader landscape that is America

[mrreowwr_kittty]

241. You really should lay off the booze this early in the morning

I don't know what you said there. It was completely incoherent.

[bridgit]

291. pft, 'thecatburgler'!? more like 'time to change the kitty litter in the catbox sparky'...

Now arabesque through your sad little cameo, tiny dancer; just take your minus 1:1 sentence wannabe, i-r-ah-contrarian clap-trap with you. You're not part of the solution. You aren't even *part* of the problem; you're the problem itself now scram your time has expired.

[sandnsea]

142. In order to send delegates to Denver

Sorry you don't understand the process of a political party choosing its nominee, but that's what we've been doing. All the parties choose their own process to choose their nominee. They all use delegates and select them in varying ways.

[bridgit]

225. then i say flip a coin

[ima_sinnic]

149. do you also have such an abysmal lack of understanding of the Electoral College?

if you don't like the system of electing delegates, why don't you work to change it for the next time? and work to change the Electoral College system to a popular vote system?

it is entirely within the realm of possibility that in the GE a candidate can win the popular vote but still lose the election -- and I'm not even considering 2000, because that election was seriously flawed, with major cheating and the intervention of the Supreme Court. But it has happened, though I'd have to Google to refresh my memory as to which election it was.

[bridgit]

226. and especially for you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6297847&mesg_id=6300652

[ima_sinnic]

244. whatever that means -- it is the way it is now, which does not make it right

but it can't be changed in midstream, any more than someone could switch over to popular vote from electoral college DURING the GE.

[totodeinhere]

27. How could it have included all caucus states when some caucus states didn't report vote totals?

And why didn't you mention that your total includes Michigan where Obama was not on the ballot?

[Colobo]

28. Congrats.

[jgraz]

107. Perfect response, Katz.

And kudos for leaving out the eyeroll. :toast:

[rodeodance]

112. you could learn a lot from the mature Obama posters.

[jgraz]

113. You could learn a lot from a third-grade arithmetic book.

[WillyT]

189. LOL !!!

:evilgrin:

[Zhade]

133. You could learn a lot about honesty.

NT!

[John Q. Citizen]

30. Clinton is a sorry loser. I pity her. She's a mess.

[mcctatas]

33. Actually, and I didn't think this was possible....

Hillary is showing much more grace in defeat than her supporters here and elsewhere in the blogosphere;)

[Occam Bandage]

32. Their no-qualifiers-added "popular vote" has Obama in the lead. He won that, too.

[RandomKoolzip]

34. This doesn't help your cause. Even she knows it's over. Time to face reality.

[rodeodance]

94. Give her some credit instead of being a grinch

[Zhade]

134. Credit where it's due. She didn't win the popular vote.

NT!

[OzarkDem]

200. Yes she did

and she's been gracious enough to accept it when her party used a technicality to push her out of the race.

Can you recall any other time in Dem party history when a primary vote was this close and the candidate with the most popular votes was forced out before the convention? I can't.

This one will go down in history and many Dems will look back on it later and wonder how it could have happened.

[SwampG8r]

208. you "hillary supporters"are sick

at this point the only purpose in this disingenuous line is to steal legitimacy from the nominee
she lost
its over
he won
she will not ever be POTUS

[papapi]

35. Dubious at best since there's no way to calculate a popular vote. Number of delegates. Get it?

[barb162]

81. There's no way to calculate a popular vote? Who told you that?

[totodeinhere]

138. Because some states did not report vote totals.

They only counted delegates.

[onenote]

161. actually there is no ONE way to calculate the popular vote

which is why its a flawed measure. It certainly doesn't measure how much support each candidate has across the nation, at least not when they are not both on all of the ballots (ie. Michigan) or competed in states without a popular vote tally (ie certain caucus states). And its further flawed as a relevant measure of popularity vis a vis the general election when the margin of "victory" for one candidate is based on the popular vote from a jurisdiction that does not participate in the general election (eg puerto rico).

Arguing that the popular vote means anything under those circumstance is the last refuge of fools.

[CreekDog]

36. she got a lot of votes, and if attendance at caucuses and primary votes

were the rules for selecting the nominee, she would be the nominee.

on the other hand, if she had simply voted against the Iraq War, she would've won more votes and more delegates and would be choosing her VP now. funny how amidst all the unfairness that Hillary has suffered, had she voted differently on Iraq, she would've won anyway.

Her Iraq War vote was a BIG mistake, politically. The war 5 years later, with Iraq in shambles makes her vote look worse now than it made Kerry's in 2004.

[SeattleGirl]

37. Yeah, whatever.

:eyes:

[democracy1st]

38. who the f... cares another lame BS post

[Warren Stupidity]

39. Why be so deliberately dishonest?

Who are you trying to fool besides yourself?

[Life Long Dem]

41. The four Caucus states are not official popular vote numbers.

Thus fails the official imaginary popular vote for this primary, which is actually decided by delegates.

[iconicgnom]

42. This is so petty. OK, she got a lot of votes, she came close. She lost. Get over it.

[livingmadness]

43. Awwww Rodeo!!!

Watcha gonna do after next Wednesday huh? After all, once Hillary officially steps aside on Saturday, the MSM will lose interest in the Clintons, there'll be nothing to wail about anymore, and the rules round here will not allow for any primary bashing anyways. Oh well ... come on, stop and come over to the dark side ... you know you want to ...

[vaberella]

44. YOU NEED TO REMOVE 500,000+ VOTES!!! MICHIGAN DOES NOT COUNT!!

Obama was not on the ballot to count. Which means she LOST the popular vote!! Why do people keep switching the story to fit them. You're blooy incorrect.

Here are the final tallies:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Obama 17, 535, 438

Clinton 17, 493, 836

They were almost equal but he won by a small margin and kicked her arse with the delegate number tallied for him.

Further more he won 34 contests and she won ONLY 20, out of 54. He kicked her arse, get your facts straight.

[MarjorieG]

53. In seating delegates, they used FL, but not MI. State remedy apart from illegal primary.

That's according to MI law. The delegates were seated according to a made up MI solution.

[Iceburg]

153. They may not count in your version of reality today but those voters and

their votes will be counted in the GE.

[Dawgs]

253. So will the Obama voters that voted uncommitted.

You got have it both ways holmes.

[MarjorieG]

259. No one is dissing MI voters. Just Hillary's dis-ingenuousness concern.

[bhikkhu]

45. ....there was no popular vote....

not that it matters.

[AtomicKitten]

46. What about the Virgin Islands, America Samoa, Democrats Abroad, and Guam?

The analysis you set your heart on conveniently leaves them out and why the nomination is decided on delegate count.

Obama's +25,000 vote lead in Montana made your claim unattainable but damn if you aren't still making it anyway.

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. why did you just so happen to cherry pick those number when from the same website?

using the SAME EXACT CHART FROM THE SAME EXACT WEBSITE you are referencing:

link:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Popular Vote Total:

Obama: 17,535,458 - 48.1%

Clinton: 17,493,836 - 48.0%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA:

Obama: 17,869,542 - 48.2%

Clinton: 17,717,698 - 47.8%


Those figures above come from the same exact chart on the same exact website you provided in your link above:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html


------------------------------------------

And no one in their right mind could possibly argue that a primary in which the Michigan and Florida electorate and indeed the whole world was told repeatedly would not count and this was repeated constantly by the media on the eve of and the day of the primary - and this was done according to the rules Sen. Clinton and all other candidates agreed to. and ONLY the Clinton campaign wanted to change the rules after the fact - that such a primary and in the case of Michigan which only Sen. Clinton was on the ballot, that this was an accurate representation of the will of registered Michigan Democrats and Florida Democrats. To believe this, one would have to believe that Sen. Obama had not even one single supporter in the state of Michigan.

Absurd would be the polite word that comes to mind.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DearAbby]

49. Popular vote

:spray::rofl: How in the hell did you count the caucus states? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Jesus, you guys never stop heaving the bullshit, huh?

[onetwo]

50. Why do HRC supporters...

...continually suggest that Obama had to win in a landslide to deserve the nomination? Yes, it was close -- that's a function of putting two very strong candidates head-to-head against each other. The fact of the matter is that 50% + 1 vote = nomination. Period.

If anything, Clinton should have obliterated Obama. That was certainly the prediction in 2007. The fact that it was even this close means that Clinton is much more vulnerable than everyone thought.

[jgraz]

66. Very well said.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[onetwo]

91. Thanks

Long time, first time... ;)

[barb162]

80. If she hadn't been outspent by about 4 to 1 she would have won.

Heck she won in a lot of states where he was outspending her like crazy. She's the stronger candidate.

[onetwo]

103. I'm sure Obama would have GLADLY...

...traded his money advantage for 16 years of publicity and recognition.

Do you honestly believe that the millions of people out there strongly nostalgic for the peace and prosperity of the 1990s could give two hoots about a few ads from an unknown? What Obama pulled off was so improbable... we won't realize the enormity of the achievement until later when we all have time to reflect.

BTW, a 4-1 money advantage was probably the minimum necessary to introduce himself to the masses.

[Diane R]

111. If she had managed her money better, and had better supporters, she would have had 4X more to spend.

[vaberella]

136. Thanks for saying that....Now imagine if we let a woman like that run our economy. We'd be fucked!

[jgraz]

122. Also, if she hadn't out-sucked Obama 4 to 1, she might have won.

Grandma... balls... Grandpa...

[Zhade]

135. Correction: she's the FAILED candidate who WON'T be the nominee.

NT!

[WeDidIt]

166. So what you are saying is Clinton had such little support

she couldn't raise the money to compete against Obama.

[SwampG8r]

212. not outspent

he outfundraised her
another of her campaign FAILURES

[SOS]

231. Re: Campaign spending

"Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s latest campaign finance report appeared even to her most stalwart supporters and donors to be a road map of her political and management failings. Several of them, echoing political analysts, expressed concerns that Mrs. Clinton’s spending priorities amounted to costly errors in judgment that have hamstrung her competitiveness against Senator Barack Obama of Illinois.

“We didn’t raise all of this money to keep paying consultants who have pursued basically the wrong strategy for a year now,” said a prominent New York donor.

Mrs. Clinton came into January with a cash advantage over Mr. Obama, with about $19 million available for the primary, compared with about $13 million for him. She wound up spending at roughly the same rate as Mr. Obama, about a million dollars a day, but because she performed dismally compared to him in raising money, she ended the month essentially in the red and was forced to lend her campaign $5 million, while he had $19 million for the coming contests."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/us/politics/22clinton.html

In 2006 Clinton blew $36 million running against an unknown mayor from Yonkers.

[roseBudd]

260. so strong that her supporters just weren't that into giving her money

[George_Bonanza]

115. Black tax?

Unless a non-white candidate proves beyond absolutely all reasonable doubt that s/he can do a better job than a white candidate, the white candidate gets the nod by default.

[onetwo]

121. Sad, but probably close to the truth.

[jgraz]

124. I think it's more like an Entitlement Tax.

Hillary still can't believe that we would be so stupid as to not capitulate to her demands for a coronation.

[cui bono]

128. Good point.

Welcome to DU.

:toast:

[doublethink]

51. There there dear ...... we know ..... we know ......

Isn't it past your bedtime? Time to put this one to rest. Sleep well.



:hug:

[PatGund]

52. I posted on this earlier....

The numbers you're using from that page are #4, which are Basic popular vote, caucus states added, Sen. Clinton is given her Michigan votes, uncommitted votes are not given to Sen. Obama

Again, that page is:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/...

They did six different ways to calculate the popular vote. In three of these, Sen. Obama wins the popular vote, and in three of these Sen. Clinton wins the popular vote.

The first is the basic popular vote. The caucus states are not counted, neither is Michigan:

Popular Vote Total - 17,535,458 48.1% - 17,493,836 48.0% - Obama +41,622 +0.1%

The second is basic popular vote, plus estimates for caucus states:

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA - 17,869,542 48.2 - 17,717,698 47.8% - Obama +151,844 +0.4%

The third is basic popular vote, no caucus, Sen. Clinton is given her Michigan votes, uncommitted votes are not given to Sen. Obama:

Popular Vote (w/MI) - 17,535,458 47.4% - 17,822,145 48.1% - Clinton +286,687 +0.8%

The fourth is the same as the third, but with the addition of the caucus estimates:

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA - 17,869,542 47.4% - 18,046,007 47.9% - Clinton +176,465 +0.5%

The fifth is popular vote, no caucus, Sen. Clinton is given her Michigan votes, uncommitted votes are given to Sen. Obama:

Popular Vote (w/MI) - 17,773,626 48.0% - 17,822,145 48.1% - Clinton +48,519 +0.1%

The sixth is the same as the fifth, but with the addition of the caucus estimates:

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA - 18,107,710 48.1% - 18,046,007 47.9% - Obama +61,703 +0.2%

It's interesting to note that in all three of the Clinton wins, the win is based on denying Obama the popular vote. This is done by denying the uncommitted Michigan votes to Obama, and/or denying the caucus votes. Two of Obama's wins are based on ignoring the results of the invalid election in Michigan, but the third win is by counting all the votes. This is ironic, based on Sen. Clinton's campaign cry of "count all the votes", since that method results in a win for Sen. Obama.

Aren't you being a bit.....dishonest in only citing ONE set of figures from that page and claiming a Clinton win, when half the sets show an Obama win as well?? It would be as honest for me to say "Final totals: Barack Obama won the popular vote" using sets 1, 2, and 6 as proof

[charlie]

58. Such a waste

Rodeodance won't read your post. She'll comment on it, but it'll be totally unmoored from anything you wrote. Remember the name and save yourself some effort.

[jgraz]

67. Or better yet...

Avail yourself of that little red button above her posts. It works wonders.

[rodeodance]

108. i did not see your post I do not know how anyone can give the uncommited to anyone.

[onenote]

162. but you're perfectly willing to pretend the popular vote as you count it means something

when it assumes that not a single person in Michigan supports Obama.

Pathetic.

[PatGund]

204. Here's the post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6288904&mesg_id=6288904

As for MI and the uncommitted vote, you'll have to take that up with the Michigan democratic party and the agreement they made with the DNC. However, it's a bit dishonest to give 0 votes to Sen. Obama, especially when there was write-in votes for him.

Two of the Three Sen. Clinton wins cited on the Real Clear Politics page both of us used are based on not counting the caucus votes. Two are based on denying the uncommitted votes. One does both. Two of the Sen. Obama wins don't count Michigan for either person, and the third counts every thing.

As I said, I find it odd that three of the Sen. Clinton wins are based on denying votes, when the battle cry was "count every vote"

[OzarkDem]

197. Obama took his name of the ballot

It was his choice, he wasn't required to.

Legally, you can't count votes for a candidate who wasn't on the ballot.

I realize we've bent a lot of laws to get Obama the nomination, but that's one line we shouldn't cross - giving votes to candidates who aren't on the ballot.

[Lerkfish]

54. you know, I honestly feel sorry for you...no, wait...

no I don't. the feeling passed.

[DearAbby]

60. It was gas....

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

59. Obama: 17,869,542 (48.2%); Clinton 17,717,698 (47.8%)

Go suck on a lemon.

If counting Michigan, count this way ...
Obama: 18,107,710 (48.1%); Clinton 18,046,007 (47.9%)

[Skip Intro]

62. Obama got no votes in MI. That is just a fact.

If you give the uncommitted vote entirely to Obama, he wins the pop vote by less than 1%

However, there were no votes recorded for Obama in MI.

Hard to argue all the uncommitteds would have gone to him.

But factually, no one voted for Obama in MI.

And that was a choice he made.

[AtomicKitten]

68. which is precisely why the MI vote was disqualified and a solution reached

It's all about fair play, something that is foreign to the Clinton camp who believe they are entitled to frame and reframe the rules as they go. Democracy disagrees.

Rather than being thankful Obama agreed to a solution that benefited your candidate culled from contests that were disqualified and to which your candidate agreed, Clinton people complain. Oy.

Obama won fair and square, he is now the head of the party, and it's time for Clinton to kiss his ring.

[FlyingSquirrel]

70. Obama got NO FEWER than 25.67% in any state in which he was on the ballot.

That is also a fact. And that was West Virginia in which he did not campaign and Hillary did. Giving him that percentage in Michigan as a worst-case scenario (he actually got 32.93% in Florida) he still wins the popular vote. To give him zero votes in MI is disingenuous.

[jgraz]

75. Also, there is NO state in which Clinton campaigned that her numbers didn't go DOWN.

She lost ground everywhere she showed up. There's no reason to think the same think would not have happened in MI and FL.

[symbolman]

76. Open mouth "A"

Insert Sock "B"

Relief is felt all around.

Someone should create a countdown clock here that runs backwards until Wed at high noon when hopefully this bullshit pissy Smearing of Obama GOES AWAY for Good.

[Occam Bandage]

82. Correct. Because there was no election in MI. That is just a fact.

That was the RBC's decision.

[Skip Intro]

123. There was an election in MI, tho.

There was.

And there was one campaign. The one to get people to vote "uncommitted."

The election was legal.

[VolcanoJen]

143. So, just to summarize, Obama wins the popular and delegate vote.

:thumbsup:

[Skip Intro]

148. If you give him all the uncommitted votes from MI.

Sure.

[onenote]

164. Or, just to summarize: there is no meaningful measure of the popular vote

and only desperate losers who can't deal with reality rely on it, although they can't explain what its supposed to signify. Overall popularity in the nation? That would mean that they think no one supports Obama in Michigan. Overall popularlity as a predictive measure for the GE? Not so much when the margin of victory is dependent on a jurisdiction (Puerto Rico) that doesn't participate in the GE. Overall popularity in those states that chose delegates with a popular vote mechanism? Maybe, but that measure merely concedes the point that getting delegates was the goal and Obama clearly triumphed in that respect.

[not_too_L8]

177. Michigan is "not going to count for anything". Hillary clinton

So your argument is false as stated by Hillary her self

If you do not want to give any Michigan vote to Obama then take the Michigan vote out for Clinton.

In which case she still did not win the popular vote!

you can listen to her say it here
http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=zydzt

edit to add link

[FlyingSquirrel]

63. Actual, verifiable numbers from greenpapers.com prove otherwise

Obama's WORST state was West Virginia in which he got 25.67% of the vote with a minimal campaign while Hillary campaigned heavily there and Edwards was on the ballot. (Obama got 32.93% in FL) Giving him that same 25.67% percentage in Michigan for a worst-case scenario, and ignoring the obvious fact that not all popular caucus votes were counted, and that Washington State's non-binding primary would have added 38,000+ to his total, among other things -- he still wins the popular vote.

thegreenpapers.com

[LowerManhattanite]

65. Sad, comic Kabuki now. n/t

[jgraz]

69. Only 5 more days of this. Then Rodeo can fully declare for McCain and go away.

[Drunken Irishman]

72. Under my rules (just as valid as yours), Obama won the popular vote.

I'm counting my room only, though, but it's no less valid than your count.

Oh and Obama won with 100% of the vote. Beat that! :)

[jgraz]

87. Also, Obama won if you use cumulative voter IQ points. Or if you count teeth.

Of course, Hillary kicked his ass on the "I slept with my sister" vote.

[rodeodance]

97. "Hillary kicked his ass on the "I slept with my sister" vote." Shameful and immature post

[jgraz]

98. Still more accurate than your "she won the popular vote" bullshit.

[rodeodance]

114. ah, you love me, following me around like a little puppy.

[jgraz]

119. It's called responding to your posts. Jesus, have you still no idea how a message board works?

Not surprising, since you clearly have no idea how a primary contest works. :banghead:

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

264. BILL DONOHUE

I'm following you around, too.

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

265. Less shameful than citing the Catholic League to make your arguments

FAIL

[goletian]

77. so, youre gonna vote for hillary?

oh wait... you cant! its over. be a dem, or be dumb.

[barb162]

79. And she's the REAL winner, rodeodance!

K&R

great post!

[jgraz]

84. "REAL" in the sense of "existing only in your fractured psyche"

good luck with that. :eyes:

[Poll_Blind]

228. I think this might be the first I'm I've ever called for someone to get a DUZY, but...DUZY!!!

:rofl:

DUZY!!! DUZY!!! DUZY!!! DUZY!!! DUZY!!!

PB

[barb162]

256. And it's too bad you can't tell which figure in the OP's thread

is bigger than the other. Tsk, tsk.
PS
My psyche is great and besides that, I know how to count.
And you might have noticed in Rasmussen today that even today HRC has a better chance than BHO of beating McCain.

[rodeodance]

109. :-)

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

267. WEEE

If by 'real' you mean 'fake' and by 'winner' you mean 'not really the winner', this is totally an accurate post.

K&R!!!!!! OMGZZZZZZZZZZ

[LTR]

83. Where are the caucus states?

You people bitch and whine about not fully counting Michigan and Florida, yet you conveniently ignore states that did pure caucuses.

As I've said before, anyone who brings up the popular vote argument is too stupid and ignorant to discuss politics.

BTW: Hillary lost. Get over it.

[SeattleGirl]

118. We don't count, apparently.

Signed,

A Washington Stater

[LTR]

182. I guess neither does Iowa

Which is still a battleground state.

[mystieus]

90. "With 0 votes for Obama in Michigan"

[Chulanowa]

95. Two tenths of a percent. Practically a landslide

She damn well better take it to the convention to sweep his ass under the rug. Her and the, what, twelve people that make up that 0.2%

Look out, Obama. The Mudde Butte, SD bridge club is coming for ya.

[dailykoff]

110. RCP has six popular vote totals, three favoring Obama, three Clinton.

That might be one reason popular vote total estimates are irrelevant to the nomination process.

[David Zephyr]

116. rodeodance, however one counts the popular vote, it was very, very close between the two of them.

This Obama fan acknowledges that Hillary Clinton really did close the gap on the popular vote gulf that Obama had at one time. I do not take that away from her. It's the simple facts.

Those of us who supported Obama should not diminish the nearly 20 million voters who went to the polls for Hillary. The popular vote, which was not the metric, was razor close.

That, rodeodance, is a fact that all Hillary supporters should be proud of. And something that Obama, who is no dummy, will respect. Maybe some of his supporters don't, but I know he does. And I do, too. She closed the gap.

[DangerousRhythm]

117. Is it Tuesday yet?

Oh, that's right, Tuesday happened a couple of days ago. Thanks for the flashback! :)

[jgraz]

120. June 11th can't come fast enough.

[Boo Boo]

125. We don't choose nominees, nor elect Presidents based on popular vote. /nt

[GoldieAZ49]

145. So Gore did not 'win' the 2000 election...

[Warren Stupidity]

185. The election was stolen by stealing the electors from Florida.

The total popular vote was irrelevant to any argument that Gore won.

[cui bono]

126. The popular vote meme is a lie. You know that. Stop undermining our candidate.

Clinton didn't win. You need to absorb that. Perhaps you shouldn't come here until you can deal with it.

In the meantime, please stop with this bs meme that was invented to find some magical calculation to make Clinton ahead of Obama. Well it doesn't work because it simply isn't true. Even if it were, it doesn't matter. The only thing you accomplish by continually posting this is to attempt to undermine our presidential candidate. That's against the rules.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mystieus]

150. Agreed.

[billyoc]

137. Perhaps she can use that valuable information during her primary for the New York Senate seat.

I'll look forward to hearing it then.

[hayu_lol]

144. No doubt about it...

Obama won half the Dem Party and lots of crossover Repugs and others.

Hillary won half the Dem Party.

Can Obama win the GE with only half the party?

Do this math.

Why is not Oregon listed on those charts?

[GoldieAZ49]

146. Thank you for posting the actual numbers...but

I thought of looking them up but with the crowd here it didn't seem worth the time.


However, Hillary does not control how those 18 million will vote regardless of the political rhetoric required from Hillary and/or what Obama & Gang say.

[PatGund]

209. Not QUITE the actual numbers

The URL in question:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president /...

They did six different ways to calculate the popular vote. In three of these, Sen. Obama wins the popular vote, and in three of these Sen. Clinton wins the popular vote. The OP used version four in the post.

The first is the basic popular vote. The caucus states are not counted, neither is Michigan:

Popular Vote Total - 17,535,458 48.1% - 17,493,836 48.0% - Obama +41,622 +0.1%

The second is basic popular vote, plus estimates for caucus states:

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA - 17,869,542 48.2 - 17,717,698 47.8% - Obama +151,844 +0.4%

The third is basic popular vote, no caucus, Sen. Clinton is given her Michigan votes, uncommitted votes are not given to Sen. Obama:

Popular Vote (w/MI) - 17,535,458 47.4% - 17,822,145 48.1% - Clinton +286,687 +0.8%

The fourth is the same as the third, but with the addition of the caucus estimates:

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA - 17,869,542 47.4% - 18,046,007 47.9% - Clinton +176,465 +0.5%

The fifth is popular vote, no caucus, Sen. Clinton is given her Michigan votes, uncommitted votes are given to Sen. Obama:

Popular Vote (w/MI) - 17,773,626 48.0% - 17,822,145 48.1% - Clinton +48,519 +0.1%

The sixth is the same as the fifth, but with the addition of the caucus estimates:

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA - 18,107,710 48.1% - 18,046,007 47.9% - Obama +61,703 +0.2%

It's interesting to note that in all three of the Clinton wins, the win is based on denying Obama the popular vote. This is done by denying the uncommitted Michigan votes to Obama, and/or denying the caucus votes. Two of Obama's wins are based on ignoring the results of the invalid election in Michigan, but the third win is by counting all the votes. This is ironic, based on Sen. Clinton's campaign cry of "count all the votes", since that method results in a win for Sen. Obama.

[kevinmc]

151. Keep grasping at straws ..... it's over HILLARY LOST .....n/t

[Major Hogwash]

154. Hillary won't be the vice president either.

Too bad.

[Major Hogwash]

155. There's only 150 days until November 4th.

That's why Hillary should have dropped out 2 months ago.

[tkmorris]

156. Hey Rodeo! In November: Obama, or not?

That's all I want to know. Hell, that's all I NEED to know.

[bowens43]

157. you seem to think that this matters.

even if it were true , it would be irrelevant.

hillary lost. she had her ass handed to her be a new comer. she had her shot and she fucked it up. get over it.

[terrya]

159. It really doesn't make any difference at this point, does it?

[onenote]

160. I have some places in Michigan I'd dare you to go into and state that Obama has no popular support

You truly are one of the lamest dead-enders ever.

One last time: the "popular" vote, as you measure it, is an utterly flawed measure that does not provide an even remotely accurate representation of the popular support for Obama and Clinton.

And you know it but are to pathetic to admit it.

[futureliveshere]

165. Incomplete picture rodeo, you are misrepresenting the facts...

Of course the facts are open to misrepresentation (call it the twisted democratic process). But from the same link:

Final Tally
Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA

Obama Numbers
18,107,710 ||| 48.1%

Clinton Numbers
18,046,007 ||| 47.9%

Spread
Obama +61,703 ||| +0.2%

[WeDidIt]

167. Your numbers are BULLSHIT!

You have no numbers for Iowa, Maine, Washington, and NEvada.

Because of that you either left out those four states or you utilized an estimate. Because the estimate cannot be accurate and must have a margin of error, your final figure falls within the margin of error and thus no conclusions about who won the popular vote can be made.

Pkus, you count Michigan which was rejectd entirely by the DNC and cannot be counted.

[mod mom]

168. Includes Republican Cross-over voters like this idiot:

An Obama-Hater for Clinton, Temporarily
BY JASON HOROWITZ | MARCH 5, 2008 |

Meet Todd Appelbaum, a 46-year-old from Columbus, who wore a shirt that says “Osama for Obama” to the Clinton campaign’s election-night event in Ohio last night.
The white t-shirt, with an image of Barack Obama dressed in traditional Somali garb, is adorned with a blue Hillary Clinton button, although Appelbaum is not what one would call a real Hillary Clinton supporter.
“I voted for Hillary today,” he said, “because I’m concerned that, God forbid, Barack Obama will beat McCain. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

http://www.observer.com/2008/obama-hater-clinton-temporarily


16,000 Republicans in Cuyahoga crossed over and voted Democratic in primary

Source: Plain Dealer

16,000 Republicans in Cuyahoga crossed over and voted Democratic in primary
Sunday, March 09, 2008
Amanda Garrett
Plain Dealer Reporter

A staggering 16,000-plus Republicans in Cuyahoga County switched parties when they voted in last week's primary.

That includes 931 in Rocky River, 1,027 in Westlake and 1,142 in Strongsville. More than a third of the Republicans in Solon and Bay Village switched. Pepper Pike had the most dramatic change: just under half its Republicans became Democrats. And some of those who changed - it's difficult to say how many - could be in trouble with the law.

At least one member of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections wants to investigate some Republicans who may have crossed party lines only to influence which Democrat would face presumed Republican nominee John McCain in November.


Those who crossed lines were supposed to sign a pledge card vowing allegiance to their new party...

-snip
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/120505162549970.xml&coll=2


Ohio GOP roots for Hillary
BY HOWARD WILKINSON | [e-mail]
E-mail | Print | digg us! | del.icio.us!
One of the worst-kept secrets of the Ohio presidential primary is that Republican party leaders have a candidate they are rooting for on the Democratic side.

Her name is Hillary Clinton, and they believe that if she wins the Ohio primary and goes on to become the Democratic nominee, she will be the one who unites their dispirited and divided party and give them their best chance of keeping the White House this fall.

It is a belief that the Clinton campaign says is wrong-headed and they will campaign across the state for the next three weeks making the argument that their battle-tested, experienced candidate is the only one who can go toe-to-toe with John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee this fall.

-snip

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080213/NEWS01/302130097




A movement is afoot ...

Some Republicans refer to it as "the plot."

It started a few weeks ago when conservative radio powerhouse Rush Limbaugh suggested that his Republican following cross over during the primary to vote for Clinton. Clinton, Limbaugh argued, would be easier for McCain to beat in November.

Soon, local morning radio show host Bob Frantz echoed Limbaugh on WTAM AM/1100, and the buzz began to grow.

-snip

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/03/crossover_voting_was_heavy_and.html



RUSH LIMBAUGH:

▪ What might have actually happened in Ohio and Texas? Tin foil hat?
▪ Clip:
: "Rush, I understand that the Rush Limbaugh audience is mobilizing in Texas for Hillary. Am I hearing that right?"

: "I don't know if the audience is mobilizing or not. I am urging people — I am using a phrase — the Republicans — our nominee is chosen. It's John McCain.

Texas is open. And I want Hillary to stay in this, Laura. This is too good a soap opera. We need Barack Obama bloodied up politically, and it's obvious that the Republicans are not going to do it and don't have the stomach for it.

As you probably know, we're getting all kinds of memos from the RNC saying not to be critical there. Mark MacKinnon of McCain's campaign says he'll quit if they get critical over Obama.

This is the presidency of the United States you're talking about. I want our party to win. I want the Democrats to lose. They're in the midst of tearing themselves apart right now. It is fascinating to watch, and it's all going to stop if Hillary loses.

So yes, I'm asking to cross over and, if they can stomach it — I know it's a difficult thing to do to vote for a Clinton — but it will sustain this soap opera, and it's something I think we need. It would be fun, too."

http://www.thomhartmann.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=609&Itemid=113

[Carolina]

169. go to bed now so you can

dream on.

[MaineDem]

170. Totally bogus! TOTALLY.

This cannot include caucus states...at least not Maine...because popular vote counts DO NOT EXIST.

This is ridiculous and anyone who buys into this is buying into a lie.

[shadowknows69]

173. You only have four days left of this crap

Get it out of your system.

[City Lights]

174. You forgot Poland!

Counting votes in Poland is about as meaningful as counting votes for Hill in a state where Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot.

~~~~~~~ALL FIRED UP FOR OBAMA~~~~~~YES HE DID~~~~~~~~~~YES WE (AT LEAST SOME OF US) DID~~~~~

[zulchzulu]

175. Adding no MI numbers and the flawed FL vote to push this is historically bogus and...

... would be considered cheating and trying to fudge the numbers for some kind of gain.

Some people can take a cab in the middle of the Boston Marathon and still finish really well! Yay!

:puke:

[undeterred]

179. She won the "Best Yellow Pantsuit" award too.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lojasmo]

186. Have fun while it lasts.

Wednesday, this must stop.

[Medusa]

187. It's over. She's done. Stick a fork in her.

all the lying and creative math in the world did not and does not make her the nominee. Put your big girl or big boy pants on and deal with it.

[OzarkDem]

190. Yeah, being the most popular candidate doesn't mean anything

:sarcasm:

[Lerkfish]

203. the most popular candidate actually won

I know that's a bitter pill for you to swallow, but Obama won because he was the most popular.

its not rocket science.

your candidate lost, by every metric. That's ok, she ran a fierce race and made it close. But to lie about bald obvious facts does damage to your credibility.

[onenote]

284. so you really do believe that not a single soul in Michigan supports Obama

and that the crazy ass popular vote total that ignores several caucus states and gives Obama nothing for Michigan is a true indication of which candidate is more popular?

Pathetic.

[OzarkDem]

188. She's still polling ahead of Obama against McCain, too

So we took the candidate with the biggest popular vote and the highest and most consistent approval against McCain and shoved her out of the race.

This one will go down in Dem party history.

I don't know about other women, but I won't forget this, ever.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

193. I will never forget either but, we have healing to do and work after...I love you OzarkDem

Thank you for being on the same side with me through tout these hard fought months here on DU.....it was rather hellish in GDP for us Hillary folks( and I think most here know it)

You were a valiant warrior sister. You ROCK!

[OzarkDem]

196. You, too!

Good candidates are worth fighting for!

In a way, revealing the pervasive, hidden sexism in the Dem Party is a good thing. We can now acknowledge it, clean it up and start pushing the party in a new direction - one of respect for ALL its members and candidates.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

191. I LOVE YOU RODEODANCE! and I love Sen Hillary Rodham Clinton!

I am sad that she was the nom and she did have the majority of dem blue state votes but Obama is now our nom we must now support him as Hillary will 100% come saturday.

You my dearest friend have been a rock and thank you for being my sister in support through the hell of this mprimary here on GDP.

I stand proud with you in supporting Sen Hillary Clinton!

xo

[OzarkDem]

198. Seconded!

:hi:

[SeaLyons]

245. I give it a third....

I love all who have supported HRC. We will always admire her.

On to November.

[BREMPRO]

195. So? the RULES say Delegates choose the nominee,

My mamma told me....It's Cheatin.
Hillymath doesn't cut it.

[SeaLyons]

201. The peoples choice...

Thanks for posting Rodeo.

[onenote]

235. the people of Michigan apparently not counting (unless they voted for HRC)

INteresting view of the people's choice when the people in a very large state didn't have the opportunity to vote for one of the choices and when the views of the people of several other states are treated as a nullity because their states use caucuses to select delegates.

Yes, HRC was the choice of the people that voted for her. And many people voted for her. But if you think that somehow proves that she was the "choice" of a majority of the people who participated in the selection of the Democratic nominee you are simply fooling yourself and no one else.

I have said all along that I could have supported HRC if she had become the nominee. I even didn't give a rat's ass about snipergate or the RFK reference or any of another dozen instances of faux outrage by some Obama supporters.

But the one thing that HRC has done that is unforgivable is to concoct a bogus popular vote argument that serves no other purpose than to attempt to de-legitimitize Obama's nomination. His nomination was completely legitimate and the popular vote argument is, for lack of a better way of describing it, utter crap.

It was unconscionable for her to make the argument then and its unconscionable for any DUer to spout it now.

[SeaLyons]

236. I consider HRC the peoples choice...

and so do 18 million other voters. Has nothing at all to do with Obama and does not take away from his nomination or future support. Get over yourself.

[onenote]

239. she is the choice of 18 million voters no question

But does that make her the "people's choice" and Obama not?

No, at least not if you are a rational thinker.

The only people who need to get over anything are the HRC deadenders who need to move on to recognizing that the legitimately chosen nominee of our party is Barack Obama.

[rodeodance]

277. very nicely said .

[onenote]

283. and is it your view that Obama is not the "people's choice"?

[ProSense]

202. BS!

With FL, With Caucuses

Obama +151,844

With MI and caucuses (Uncommitted to Obama)

Obama +61,703


She lost and she's still lying.

[wowimthere]

210. Agreed... Obama will give her the lie but she did not win the Pop vote.

[tbyg52]

207. Sigh....

The goalposts have already been put back in their original position, ready for the next time, unless someone wants to change the rules *before* the next game starts.

[kid a]

211. If you repeat a LIE enough and use propaganda effectively, you can believe it

Ask the idiot in the WH.

I can get all creative with my checkbook, I'll end up bouncing lots of checks! Don't be ignorant.
She did not WIN the popular vote.

She did not WIN the nomination.
Posts like this divide with misinformation - SAME OLD SHIT, DIFFERENT DAY!!

[smiley_glad_hands]

216. Still pushing falsehoods? Move on. She lost the race.

And did not win the popular vote either.

[kentuck]

217. Actually...

If you click on the link, and you give the "uncommitted" to Obama and the estimates of the 4-state caucuses, Obama has these numbers:
Obama Clinton
Popular Vote (w/MI
Uncommitted to Obama)** 17,773,626 48.0% 17,822,145 48.1%
Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 18,107,710 48.1% 18,046,007 47.9%

[Debi]

218. Could you please tell me what the 'popular vote' count was in Iowa?

No....you can't.

and neither can real clear politics.

[Teaser]

219. nope

.

[Name removed]

224. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Straight Shooter]

227. Obama has a mandate, just like george w. bush did in 2004.

:7

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hugabear]

237. Why don't you tell us who has more delegates?

Since it's the delegate and superdelegate count that truly matters, why don't you let us know that that count is? As you can see, there is still a lot of controversy over that "popular vote", it is NOT quite as cut-and-dry as you want to think.

There is absolutely no way that Hillary is going to overtake Obama. Even she realizes this.

I really don't understand why some of you feel this need to continue with these divisive posts. If you're going to continue on with this kind of nonsense, please don't turn around and beg and plead for Obama supporters to STFU.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kokonoe]

243. I am honestly surprised of how close she was

I remember calling it for Obama months ago.

For Senator Clinton to lose for so long,
by so little with no chance to catch Obama must be hard.

[stevietheman]

246. Obama won by the DNC rules. He is the nominee. So, enough. n/t

n/t

[Sultana]

247. still grasping the straws, eh?

:eyes:

[Career Prole]

250. Mama always warned me about wishin' my life away, but

C'mon, 12 noon ET on Wednesday, June 11!

[john128]

251. Clinton doesn't win

You have to count all votes in caucus also.

[Iggo]

252. Beside the fact that...

...there is no national popular vote contest to win in the primaries, that is nonetheless very impressive.

EDITED to add: If I play in a tennis match and my final score is 6-7, 6-0, 6-7, 6-0, 6-7, does it matter that I won 30 games and my opponent won 21 games? Or does it only matter that my opponent won the match?

[AZBlue]

257. Damn! I cleared my ignore list too fast!!!

[ramapo]

258. Who cares? That is so old now. n/t

[Faygo Kid]

261. In a way, I shall miss you. You have always won by feigning fear and outrage here.

And may do so again. I have always been amazed at the Mods' catering to your least little sensitivities, more so than for any other poster. And you have indeed feigned outrage and fear over and over again. But, you have usually won, when posters of sterner stuff have not been able to shuck your alerts merely because of criticism that is normally considered part of the dialogue here at DU. Despite the fact that you have dished it out, you have never been willing to take it.

So congratulations, rodeodance. I am glad not to deal with you after Wednesday, and I have no doubt that you will have this post deleted successfully in another breathless shocked, shocked plea to the Mods. Round up the usual suspects.

We may have to form a club. A big one.

[spanone]

262. obama won

[quiller4]

263. the method for including caucus estimates is faulty

if you go to the state party web pages for caucus states and use their caucus totals the Obama number tops 18,200,000. The Green Papers estimate comes closer, puts Obama in the lead but shows the two only .15% apart.

[rucky]

266. What are you trying to sell?

seriously, where are you going with this?

[Condem]

268. You know it's a piece of shit night if this thread is being kicked

AGAIN

[Bensthename]

269. Haha, good try.. She did come close though according to realclearpolitics.

She almost did it..

[Umbram]

278. Poor thing. Attention is going to get harder and harder to come by. (nt)

[Capn Sunshine]

279. Bad math

despite the insistence that a "caucus" vote counts as a regular vote, caucuses are distillations of an area's electoral desire and represent far more than just one vote.

How anyone in the face of MI and FLA would be disingenuous enough to pass this off as "vote count"
is ridiculous.

What's more ridiculous is why we're even addressing this issue.

[verges]

280. Barack Obama

won the delegate vote.
Get over it.

[lynne]

281. It's the 2000 election all over again -

*** STARRING *** Hillary Clinton as Al Gore and Barack Obama as George Bush. :crazy:

[onenote]

282. FAIL

Only if you ignore the fact that not every state is being included in the mythical primary popular vote and only if you delude yourself into thinking that Obama has no popular support in Michigan and only if you count Puerto Rico, which doesn't count in the GE and only if you forget that GE votes are cast on one day and the primary votes are spread over five months.

Otherwise its exactly the same. Not.

[Doityourself]

285. Oh..Rodeodancer.

[Clear Blue Sky]

286. Too bad popular vote doesn't determine the nominee...nt

[sundancekid]

292. Obama = 18,107,710 vs. Clinton = 18,046,007

can we PLEASE learn to read numbers - a FAIR read of the numbers under ALL GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCES

btw, hope your post does something for YOU
because it is more of that INCITING stuff
and way less of that UNITING stuff

[Honeycombe8]

293. How many were Rush Limbaugh's "Operation Chaos" votes? How many were invalid FL and MI votes?

Where Obama, the lesser known candidate, wasn't allowed to campaign and get votes? (We all know that the lesser known candidates rely on campaigning to get votes, since their names are not well known, like "Clinton" is.)

Here in TX, Clinton won the primary by about 10,000 votes. It is estimated that Republicans heeded Limpballs call to arms, and about 10,000 Republicans voted for Clinton. (Obama won the caucus here in TX.)

Do the pop. vote numbers you cited count Obama's TX caucus votes?

What about the caucus votes for the 4 states that don't tally votes?

What about the 30,000 write-in votes in MI that were thrown away?

[gort]

296. You have made me nostalgic for a BenDavid post

At least there was a twisted logic to his posts.

[jgraz]

301. OBAMA THINKS WE'RE WHITE DEVILS!!! MICHELLE SAID WHITEY!!! RACE WAR!!!!11!!

Feel better?

[gort]

305. forgot sarcasm smiley

eom

[Clear Blue Sky]

297. Meh

[Hepburn]

298. So....??? n/t

[BootinUp]

299. No one ever lost better. nt

[rocktivity]

302. There IS no popular vote

Since there are no actual vote totals from four of the states which had caucuses!


rocknation

[shadowknows69]

303. Whatever gets you through the night rodeo.

[TheWraith]

306. Uh, no. RCP's own numbers show that Obama won the popular vote.

Thanks for your classlessness, though.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

307. Another obscure bit of trivia to add to the footnotes of the also-ran.

[demwing]

310. Lies.

Damn Lies, and Statistics.

[lmbradford]

311. BS

[jespwrs]

313. Geez

This guy has some valuable info for you Rodeo. Newsflash: Our nomination process is not a tally of votes. There are caucuses. Read this carefully, it's pretty simple:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/popular-vote-question.php