I just don't get the cries of "sexism".

[johnaries]

When did anyone except Hillary supporters ever mention gender as an issue? Many people, including the media, have tried to make race an issue. I heard poll after poll saying that many asked responded that race was important to their choice. But I never heard any questions about gender except from some Hillary supporters.

I was an Edwards supporter, but it had nothing to do with him being male or white. Obama was my second choice. Hillary was my last choice - not because she's a woman but because I thought she had gotten too "cozy" with too many corporate interests. Now that Obama is the presumptive nominee, I support him fully. If Hillary had won the primary, I would have thrown my support behind her: despite all her corporate connections overall she and any of the Dem candidates still would have made a good President, which I can't say about any of the Republican candidates. I commend all those former Hillary supporters here on DU and elsewhere who have now thrown their support behind Obama, and a big hug to all!

These cries of "sexism" from some camps just sound like sour grapes to me.

Please, McCain is just too unacceptable as President.

edit to add: I'm not talking about anyone here on DU, but some of the reports I'm hearing out of FL and other places. :grouphug:

[Skittles]

1. that's the problem

you don't "get it"

[johnaries]

2. OK, can you explain it to me, then? Seriously.

[Skittles]

4. I did not vote for Hillary

but the extreme hatred and sexism directed at her sickened me - and MANY others - to the CORE

[johnaries]

11. From Dems?

I know the right hates the Clintons, but I avoid most right-wing outlets. Many of the people I am talking about make it sound like Dems were sexist towards her and made her lose the Dem nom because of sexism and no other reason. But I haven't seen sexist statements coming from Dem sources. And certainly not from the Obama campaign.

[Skittles]

16. from left, right, center

FROM ALL SIDES

[johnaries]

24. Are you sure about that? What about from the Obama campaign?

Some of these people are claiming they won't vote for Obama because of the sexism. Why are they mad at Obama? I guess that's the real thing I'm trying to find out.

[rucky]

112. That's the question that never gets answered.

I think the confusion is this: There were elements that contributed to an uneasy atmosphere re: both race and gender in this campaign. Nobody can put their finger on its origins, so the solid, overt evidence just isn't there. But that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Of course it did and does! We had a woman and have a black man running for President. I would be silly to pretent that race and gender aren't issues.

So maybe not addressing it is just as uneasy as some of the subtle jabs, and/or things that could be interepreted as sexist or racist because it's the elephant in the room that's making everybody a bit on edge.

[Peacetrain]

121. Cannot get an answer on that one

I spent at least 20 posts going back and forth yesterday asking.. who in Senator Obama's campaign, himself or surrogates ever said anything sexist.. But always a circular answer... being no answer.. so I know the media.. and especially the right wing haters.. were all over Clinton with demeaning comments.. the whole concept that some would embrace the actual source of that demeaning comments by voting for Senator McCain has me completely baffled

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

160. He dusted off his shoulder in an aggressive act of sexism...

Don't you remember?!? That makes him sexist! :sarcasm::sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

55. No one has been able to produce evidence that anyone but

the corporate media engaged in sexism. Do you want to be the first?

[lastliberalintexas]

64. Some on the left here did

Though I don't consider posters on DU as actually influencing the election in any meaningful way.

I also think it ironic that so many of the most vocal Clinton critics on DU were confessed former republicans who apparently had their opinions of the Clintons formed in the 90s. I think there were many issued which factored into Clinton losing the nomination, and one of them was the sexism from some.

However, I never saw Obama do it, and for that he gets very high marks. Now if we can just get him to stop using religion to rally the troops, I'd be quite happy. :)

[EFerrari]

72. LOL! I guess I meant in public!

"You can get anything thing you want at Skinner's restaurant."

I need to have a word with our candidate about his Latin America policy but, it can keep for now. :)

[11 Bravo]

108. Would you consider as "evidence" of sexism the fact that Senator Clinton was called ...

a "bitch", a "whore", and a "cunt" right here on dear old "progressive" DU? If so, you have your answer. If not, then you have your own set of issues.

[Alexander]

181. How is DU representative of the Obama campaign? It isn't.

So some anonymous people on a message board said nasty words. Big deal. This is the Internet. It happens.

Grow up already. The YouTube comments pages make DU look like a kindergarten playground.

[11 Bravo]

182. Read much, little one?

the post to which I replied baldly stated that the corporate media was the only entity which has demonstrated sexism. The assertion was false and I called them on it. Then you chimed in, eager to play with the adults, and offered up a string of non sequiturs. Grow up, indeed.

[DesertRat]

21. Just do a search here on du

for the word bitch and Hillary and you'll find lots of examples from dems. Fortunately many threads were deleted by the mods so they're not archived.

[Carolina]

31. she earned the disparaging moniker with her

bitchy, kitchen sink campaign.

[MonkeyFunk]

54. Nope

no, she didn't. She never deserved the treatment she got here, simply for running a campaign.

You believe EVERY rumor and smear about her, and dismiss EVERY complaint against Obama and create for yourself an artificial view of things that doesn't match reality.

[WarfareArtist]

77. She fully deserved the treatment, but not because "simply for running a campaign"

But because the way she ran it. If you actually read the cases against her you would understand the resentment that is directed against her. I would list all of them had it not been done a hundred times already. Meanwhile Clinton's supporters only have inexperience and "he's popular just because he's black" attitude to have all the reason to hate him.
But she's a woman and you're a woman. Therefore, she can't possibly done anything wrong, right?
You would do well to be ridden of this mindset since you're just reinforcing the stereotype that women are irrational, which is actually a gender-neutral trait but more commonly and associated with women (just in case you call me a chauvinist pig).
She's not cheated of anything. It was a fair fight...no, in fact it was in Clinton's favor. She just blew it.
Had it not been for party unity and Obama's plea to his supporters, they would have never extend their hands to Clinton and her supporters.

[eridani]

100. She ran a campaign that was as damaging to her own chances in the GE

--as it was to Obama's, with all that horseshit about "commander in chief" and "elitism."

[ima_sinnic]

96. I second that! there is no other word to describe the backstabbing way she acted

[rodeodance]

99. so, its back to Hillary bashing once again.

[Political Heretic]

33. That doesn't make for sexism.

For example, I could say hillary is a jackass. That would mean I hate hillary, not that I'm a sexist. The two are not necessarily the same.

For the record I don't hate hillary, and I have better more articulate ways to express criticisms of the way she handled herself during this campaign than to just call her names.

[DesertRat]

37. I didn't say jackass. I said bitch

also try cunt, skank or whore.

[Political Heretic]

86. a matter of degrees.

The trouble with talking about "bitch" as sexist is that there are different degrees.

For example, someone can say that Hillary Clinton is a "bitch" because of ignorance - i.e. what they really mean is that they don't like her, and would just as easily substitute any number of negative terms (jackass, asshole, whatever) in its place. They aren't thinking about the gendered-ness of the term. They'd call a man they disliked a bastard and a woman they disliked a bitch and not blink an eye.

Just because a term is gendered doesn't necessarily make it sexist. Now for my part, I'm a little more aware of how the term is regularly used by sexists and for sexist purposes. Which is one of the reasons why, when I'm upset at Hillary Clinton in particular, I like to call her a bastard. Just because it throws everyone off. :)

The bigger trouble with this is the idea that calling someone a bitch or not is the biggest issue of sexism we've got. That's ludicrous. Cunt, Skank or Whore didn't come up enough here or anywhere else to even deserve mention. There are always going to be a few racist, sexist, homophobic, ethno-phobic, xenophobic, ageist, classist assholes who sneak there way on the boards and get one or two posts off before being tombstoned. It is incredibly, staggeringly disingenuous to pretend like they represent anything other than a fringe minority of disruptors. None of us are responsible for them, or accountable for their actions

There are real issues of sexism, and we should talk about them. But the fact that Hillary Clinton's spouse is the former President of the most powerful country in the history of the world, and thus he comes up in the equation when discussing a Clinton candidacy (especially since she chose to give him a very prominent and active role in her campaign) certainly isn't one of them. And someone saying "bitch" instead of "bastard" or "jackass" or whatever else should probably be prioritized down the list of "sexist" things, behind more substantive issues such as the media asking questions like "is America ready to watch Clinton age?" -- do you remember when this happened? There was discussion on the mainstream media about whether or not America was ready to watch a woman grow old as a national leader. THAT my friend, is a stunning example of the ridiculous sexism that still pervades our society, and it would be so nice if issues like that were prioritized higher than someone saying "she's a bitch."

Forgive me, but when Tina Faye can say "Bitch is the New Black" and be celebrated by female and male clinton supporters for saying it, you know that whether you like it or not, the word has taken on an ambiguous status in the public where it is sometimes acceptible and sometimes not depending a great deal on context. So let's try to look at the more serious issues of sexism shall we?

---Is America ready to watch a woman president get old, is certainly one.

---Do you remember the coverage of the "Clinton tears" in New Hampshire? My god, you want to talk about sexism gone wild. If a man had shown emotion for some reason - gotten choked up talking about family, or his passion for america or whatever, you can guarantee it would have been covered differently.

---Were the media calls to get out of the race, or put better, the medias constant questioning of "why is she still in it, what does she hope to accomplish" influenced by sexism? Would they have been quite the same if she had been a man? Think of Mike Huckabee. The media joked some about the fact that there was no chance of him winning, but they basically loved the guy and certainly did not hold segement after segment about why he was hanging on. Hillary Clinton had much more of a chance at winning for much longer than he did, and she was treated far, far, far more negatively for staying in the race as early as Pennsylvania, maybe earlier.***

Note that I don't think that every person who asked why is she still in it was a sexist. Some people were biased by being liberal and wanting a Democrat in the White House, and felt that it was clear she did not have the math to be the nominee, and so it was better for the party if she would conceed - none of that is sexist, they would have felt the same way if she was male or female. But that doesn't explain all of the coverage or all of the pundits.

These are a few examples of SUBSTANTIVE issues of sexism that we ought to discuss.

[tanglefoot]

151. Don't forget the spokeblondes talking about her clothes

I don't remember it so much later in the race, but last summer and fall I caught several news shows trying to make something out of her clothes. Especially after debates. The sad thing is that so many of the spokesblondes at fault were women.

[City Lights]

156. The bobble-head media dissed Gore for his wardrobe too.

He was ridiculed over his "earth tones."

[TheWraith]

93. You know who uses the word "bitch" more than anyone else I know?

My mother. To describe other women, to describe men, to describe herself, etcetera. Including to describe Hillary, usually throwing in another expletive or two when she does.

Likewise, if you poke around the DU profiles, you'll find that plenty of the people who used such epithets to describe her are women. Plenty of men, too. Frankly, trying to spin that into a massive overarching tide of sexism swinging the campaign is a losing case.

The truth is that nobody has ever produced real evidence that sexism had an effect on the election, other than as a convenient excuse and a rallying cry for the handful of Clinton supporters who utterly blinded themselves to the real reason she lost: an incredibly poorly run campaign.

Of course, if you'd like you can also search the archives for the things said about Obama, like the Clinton supporter saying he was smoking crack when he was three years old (yes, one of them actually said that), or the muslim smear, or any of the other vile trash that was pulled out. But apparently that doesn't count.

[DesertRat]

152. Of course it counts

I support Obama and despise any "vile trash" being thrown his way. I ignore and alert on any such post. But that's not the topic of this thread which is about sexism.

And regarding your mother, some women can and do make sexist comments about other women.

[TheWraith]

173. The problem is people interpreting language as evidence of sexism.

Some people just have dirty mouths. That sure as hell includes my mother. She doesn't dislike Hillary because she's a woman: she dislikes Hillary because she believes her to be dishonest, opportunistic, and lacking in conviction.

Characterizing language that's in such common use as sexist without any actual evidence of intent, and then using as proof of an overarching tide of sexism, is nonsense. The people who cry sexism can't find one single serious example of sexism in the mainstream campaign, yet the more reality-insulated Clinton supporters talk seriously about how four years of McCain "would be better than this rape." Literal quote from a letter Bartcop published the other day.

[Chulanowa]

95. Only time I've seen "Clinton" and the C-word in the same post

Is from a Clinton supporter. Every time. You folks seem to LOVE putting the two words together. You then claim some nefarious, invisible Obama supporter said it first. of course, this Obama supporter's post has been removed, so you can't show it to us so we can all go "Damn, that's a jackass, tombstone their ass" so we just have to take you at your word, that you apparently spend a hell of a lot of time searching DU for new posts that match that particular string, then spend all your time complaining about it after it has been removed, for all the sense that makes.

Or we can just say you're full of shit on this particular meme, which is a lot less convoluted and shaves cleaner under Occam's razor.

[MethuenProgressive]

116. If you won't believe another DU member, you should ask the mods.

They remove those posts if a Hillary supporter sees it and alerts on it.

[Chulanowa]

149. Oh, I'm sure they would

But I find it difficult to beleive that Hillary supporters can be the only ones who have seen these posts. Particularly when they use them to smear all Obama supporters, and often DU as a whole.

Ah well.

[TheWraith]

174. So now the trolls speak for DU?

That's new.

[DesertRat]

148. You folks?

I have never been a Clinton supporter, nor have I ever accused Obama supporters of anything. Just calm down before you call me full of shit and reread my post.

I merely suggested that people search for the terms Hillary and bitch on DU and just see what comes up.

[RunningFromCongress]

138. Is bitch really sexist? Wouldn't that make calling a male a dick sexist?

Maybe I'm crazy but using the word bitch is just a gender appropriate label and not sexist. I think everyone is a little too sensitive these days.

Also I think people try to merge a dislike for Hillary into being sexist. I can not like her for who she is and not bc she's a woman.

[NashVegas]

177. Yes, Actually

Calling someone a "Dick" is a gender-based attack.

It was interesting that in the middle of the PA campaign when free tickets to a Dave Matthews Band fundraiser were given away on one campus - at the same time Bill Clinton was giving a speech - Jon Stewart and TDS called it the "Dick move of the week" and had a dancing phallus on the screen. I think what they were doing flew right over most peoples' heads.

[dsomuah]

179. That's not an explanation

[Ewellian]

12. examples

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg2iM

It continues through this weekend. When Senator Clinton was late for her speech, Chris Matthews was speculating that Bill was reviewing her speech for her. And don't you know that Senator Obama can't put Hillary on the ticket because that means he would have to deal with two VPs...Hill and Bill. I never brought my spouse to the office with me and shared my job. Must be alot of spouses of pundits hanging around just off camera. :shrug:

[johnaries]

17. I'm on dial-up, so I don't watch you-tube. But as far as the

comments about Bill, I wouldn't take those so much as "sexist" as the fact that Bill was a very popular 2-term President and also his very strong personality. When many people speculated that Hillary would be a good choice because we would get Bill, too, I took it as nostalgia for the Clinton Years - not anyting sexist.

[Skittles]

19. believe me, johnaries

ANY married woman would face the same garbage

[EFerrari]

23. Not true. Most people don't even know Nancy Pelosi's husband's name.

Hillary sold herself with Bill as part of the package. If that's a problem, she set herself up for it.

[Carolina]

34. exactly and claimed HIS presidency as

her experience! Can't have it both ways.

[Skittles]

36. Pelosi was not running for president n/t

[EFerrari]

49. Oh, please.

[mythyc]

109. What was Margaret Thatcher's husband's name, or Indira Ghandi?

how about the husband of Benazir Bhuto, Angela Merkel, Mary McAleese, or Queen Beatrix?

Bet you can't name one....

ok, a softball, how about Queen Elizabeth's husband's name.... (i can see the pause, whiff, and secret googling already....)

[Prophet 451]

158. self-delete, dupe

[Prophet 451]

159. Too easy

Thatcher's husband was/is (I believe he's still alive) called Dennis. QE2's husband is the Royal Consort, Prince Phillip. Benazir Bhutto's was Ali Zardari. Angela Merkel has been married twice, her current husband is Joachim Zaoer (spelling may be wrong there). Queen Beatrix's is Claus von Amsberg (who I believe also carries the title Royal Consort). Haven't a clue about McAleese, I'm afraid.

Course, I'm cheating slightly. I'm British and our media focuses far more on international affairs.

[Mezzo]

176. But they sure as hell know she's a Delasandro, which is where her political roots are.

her husband doesn't happen to be a politician at all, mush less the last democratically elected president with an excellent track record.

[Political Heretic]

29. Pelosi didn't. I don't even know the NAME of her partner.

Who was Madeline Albright's Spouse? Never heard of him either.

But when you are talking about the former president of the united states of america - yeah, its going to rightfully come up.

[Skittles]

40. HER partner was not going to be FIRST MAN n/t

[EFerrari]

58. You can't argue both that it would happen to any married woman

AND that Hill/Bill are a special case. Or, maybe you can. lol

[TahitiNut]

65. Whey do you say "First Man" and not "First Gentleman"??

After all, parallelism would suggest that "gentleman" (or "lord") be the alternative to "lady." How many times have you seen restrooms marked "Men" and "Ladies"??

Perhaps we should designate the female spouse of a President as the "First Woman"?? (Screw Eve?)

[Prophet 451]

161. self-delete, dupe

[Prophet 451]

162. Hmm, difficult point of protocol

The male equivelent to "Lady" would be "Lord" but unlike "lady", a lordship is a formal title and has to be awarded by a head of state while a ladyship could be conferred purely by marriage. "Gentleman" isn't technically an accurate reflection as the female version would be "gentlewoman", not "lady" (yes, by the intricate structure of court protocol, which all this is based on, the restroom signs are wrong). The best I can come up with for the male spouse of a female head of state is Royal/Presidential Consort.

[Political Heretic]

90. Thanks for making my point.

Bill Clinton, the former President of the United States of America, was going to be - that is an American first, and its ludicrous to think that it wouldn't be discussed, or that the fact that it was discussed was "sexist."

[johnaries]

35. My ex never did. As a matter of fact, I work with a lot of very strong

women with whom I am very close. Only once did I hear any of them complain of facing such "garbage".

[tanglefoot]

153. Apparently men would too, since

Pres. Clinton was accused of letting his wife run the country. It was a very prominent reich wing cry since the moment in the campaign that they suggested Hillary wouldn't be a typical first lady and would take on bigger projects than previous first ladies.

I guess that cuts both ways. Or is it in truth a fair assumption since they've always claimed to be a working partnership?

[Prophet 451]

165. I thought it was a fair assumption

To be honest, the idea that a presidential spouse wouldn't have at least some influence over the president is absurd. If Bill had been married to, say, a world-class medical researcher, I'd fully expect him to ask her advice on an appointment to the WHO or whether the US would be better off funding broad research or specialising in particular areas. When Sir Winston Churchill's correspondence was released, the letters exchanged between himself and his wife were part of them and these weren't just little love notes, they also included in-depth discussion about the issues of the day and showed that Clementine Churchill was every bit Winston's intellectual equal. Of course, the president's spouse is going to have some input.

[lastliberalintexas]

46. You need to

That compilation of the media's talking heads is really amazing, and would explain a great deal of the anger from many women and some men over the way Clinton was treated by the media.


And please, Matthews' comment was essentially that the man had to look over the work of the woman before it was in acceptable form to present to the masses, impinging on her competency and reinforcing her inferiority to a man. You don't think that is sexist?

[ShortnFiery]

91. Bill Clinton has gone from "very popular" to "notorious" to "persona non grata" in some liberal

circles. In essence, he's trashed his own legacy.

[EFerrari]

22. "Two for one" -- wasn't that the slogan?

[Political Heretic]

27. That's not sexism, that's fact.

I'm sorry but you're insane if you think that people should factor the former president of the united states into the equation. She chose to have him play a substantial role in her campaign and its ludicrous to think that you shouldn't consider the those implications when considering Hillary for VP.

Sexism would be making a IRRELEVANT observations about someone's spouce. These are directly relevant. Your spouce was never FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. It makes a difference.

[verges]

32. Oh. come on....

Bill Clinton was a popular two term President who had a VERY hands on involvment with Sen Clinton's campaign. Why is it sexist to think that he would look over a speech for his wife? If she had been President first, would it seem unusual for her to look over a speech for him? I don't think so.i In addition, during President Clinton's eight years in the White House it was pretty much acknowledged (in some circles) that the First Lady was a partner. And I think that was a partial basis for the claims of experience. Was it sexism then? During Bill's tenure?

[Irishonly]

164. Actually, it was

Many charges of sexism made by Hillary supporters are not valid and lump the media, Obama supporters and everyone in between as being guilty. I have not seen any proof the Obama campaign made sexist comments but I am sure if he has a Hillary supporter will link them for us.

The comment Mathews made was sexist and he has a history of making misogynist comments toward women. There were times I thought he should quit as an anchor at MSNBC and apply for a job as a fashion commentator The man is obsessed with boobs, eyes and ankles. The implication of his statement was not about Bill being helpful, it was she wasn't competent to write the speech herself and had to have approval. I didn't take the statement as being anything but sexist and an opportunity to slam Hillary again.

I have complained about Tweety often and so much I don't get emails acknowledging my correspondence. We cannot deny there was sexism and racism in the reporting but what needs to be done is to see who was responsible. Remember it was Tweety that kept asking if Obama were black enough and called Edwards the white guy.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

119. That's not sexist...

Hillary has a unique circumstance in that no other presidential candidate has ever been married to a former President. If it were the other way around, and if Bill were running after Hillary had been President, the comment about reviewing the speech would be just as valid. And it IS a valid point that with Hillary as a member of the Obama Administration, Bill is going to always be in the background (bear in mind that he still has access to daily NSA briefings). As before, if the genders were reversed, it would still be a valid concern.

[gal]

187. That is not sexist..it's a fact.

Would you not have a spouse hear a speech your wrote? You think Michelle has not listened to one of Obamas? That is part of being a spouse, being supportive.

And sorry whether you like it or not there has been many rumors of a co-presidency and that has absolutely nothing to do with sexism, it has to do with having a spouse that was a President of the United States. It was also a perk Bill Clinton having the experience, she also said she would use him but the decision layed with her if she had won.(remember the Nafta issue?)

Your stretching to reach for something.

[gal]

186. I'm a woman and I don't get it...

I've been looking for examples to see what i've missed as well. So far i'm not seeing them.

[Hamlette]

3. I'm a female feminist who supported Obama. I'm not a sexist but I heard sexist comments

Beck and ppl on Fox saying things like "no matter what she says, all I hear is "take out the garbage""

And worse.

It was more overt, but no less real, than the racist comments.

[Skittles]

5. much more accepted than the racist comments

MUCH more

[Radio_Lady]

25. I thought this Paul Begala article hit the nail on the head:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/hillary-and-jackie_b_104874.html?view=print

Quoting the article:

(Hillary's) presence in the presidential campaign has not only been impressive on the merits, it's been historic for what she has had to overcome just to do her job. The sexist signs: "HEY, HILLARY: IRON MY SHIRT!" "QUIT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AND MAKE ME A SANDWICH!" The Hillary Clinton nutcracker (get it?), and all the rest.

I expected that. What I did not expect was for the so-called mainstream media to behave little better than the bigots on the streets outside her events.

The radio clown Glenn Beck called Hillary a "stereotypical bitch" and yet is treated as if he had something serious to contribute to CNN Headline News and ABC.

MSNBC gave a platform to the magician-cum-comic-cum-crank Penn Gillette, who said Hillary did well in March because it was "White Bitch Month."

Alex Castellanos, on a night when Hillary was winning a primary by 35 percent, told CNN's audience that Hillary is called "a bitch" because, well, some people deserve to be called by that epithet.

MSNBC's Chris Matthews said Hillary owed her entire career to her husband's marital mistakes (and then, manfully, apologized).

The Washington Post broke the news flash that Hillary, in fact, has cleavage.

Her figure, her clothes, her hair, her voice - all of it mocked and savaged in a way unimaginable if she were a man. She has not only endured the jeers and the sneers and the smears, she has triumphed over them. She never answered their hate with rage. She just went on winning.
(snip)
Women have been running for President since 1872, when Victoria Woodhull ran on the Equal Rights Party platform. And yet no woman -- from the estimable Shirley Chisoholm to the remarkable Pat Schroeder to the impressive Elizabeth Dole -- has ever won even a single primary. Until Hillary. She not only won 20 primaries, she earned 17 million votes in the primaries -- more than any woman before her. And more than any man before her as well.

More at link...

And of course, there is Randi Rhodes, who called both Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton by one of the most derogatory sets of names you could use... and got a new job out of it.

Outrageous.

[Swamp Rat]

38. Thanks for the link

Chris Matthews is an ass. He may have apologized, but he won't stop his behaviour.

[Radio_Lady]

43. Glad to oblige...

Have a great week, SR.

Cordially,

Radio Lady

[MethuenProgressive]

118. The OP really need to read this post.

:dem:

[gal]

188. She is not the first person criticized for her clothes.

If you want to represent the United States how you represent yourself represents us. George Bush, Barbra Bush many others have been criticized for what they wore. They made a big deal out of seeing Obama in jeans. She will and SHOULD be judged just like any other person that runs for public office.

She took voice lessons...that is fair game as well. She sounded fake and turned me off and so has McCain.

I know he is not a presentational candidate but Trump is criticized for his hair so how is that sexism when it goes both ways?

When you put yourself in the public eye you are opening yourself up to this judgment, you know it will happen. It happens male or female. As Hillary herself said, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[johnaries]

6. Oh, that explains it to some extent. I never watch Fox Noise.

And I doubt many Dems do. So why are some people claiming Dems were being sexist towards HIllary?

[lastliberalintexas]

10. There is a video on Youtube set to that song Bitch

that has a compilation of some of the sexist media crap directed at Clinton. Like you, I don't normally watch US news, so I thankfully missed most of it the first time around.

And like Skittles, I was not a Clinton supporter, either. Yet even I could see the misogyny from the US media.

[Berry Cool]

102. And it made Olbermann sound like the worst of them all, when he never said a sexist thing.

And singled him out for especial shame and humiliation, implying he wasn't good enough to untie Edward R. Murrow's shoes.

That particular video was a piece of Hillaryis44-created crap.

[CakeGrrl]

18. The sexism came from the RW and the MSM - not from the Dems, and especially

not from the Obama campaign.

But I believe HRC parlayed what sexism existed into a 'movement' that targeted Obama as one of the proponents, a very dishonest and damaging move to Obama and the Democratic Party. I think she used sexism as a shield to avoid taking responsibility for blowing every advantage she had going into this campaign.

No one can deny that there was media consensus that she was a shoo-in for the nomination. Sexism did not erode her poll numbers.

As you said, polls did not bear out that anyone voted against her because of gender, where it was clear that Obama lost some voters due to race.

Sexism did not cause the missteps that she herself made, nor did sexism cause her campaign to go $30 million in debt.

Anyone who suggested she leave the race did so not because they wanted the girl out of the boys' club, but because she was effectively mathematically eliminated, and to remain in would be to the detriment of party unity.

Racism and sexism did exist in the campaign, but the sexism came courtesy largely of the MSM.

Hillary's campaign blew their lead on their own. And no one suggested that Hillary needed Obama to bring in male voters, but they sure are pushing the meme that Obama needs Hillary to get those "hardworking whites".

[Carolina]

39. you hit the nail on the head:

"I think she used sexism as a shield to avoid taking responsibility for blowing every advantage she had going into this campaign." Exactly my thoughts.

[tanglefoot]

154. Exactly.

It's an unfortunate tool. But she still used it.

[hfojvt]

14. and I am not sure how that is sexist

would it be sexist if a female pundit said "no matter what he says, all I hear is 'I'll do it later, I'm watching the game now.'"?

Is the supposed analysis that Hillary comes across as a scold any more sexist than the supposed analysis that Gore comes across as Eddie Haskell or the class nerd?

[Skittles]

20. a "SCOLD"

WTF!!!!!!!!!

[Hamlette]

61. don't start with me. When the oppressed make comments aginst the oppressors it is not the same.

I could tell you stories...

If you said he would say "I'll do it later" people would laugh.

Mind you, I didn't see much of it as I don't watch Fox etc. and I didn't see ANY coming from Obama.

The only "bad" thing Obama said, in 17 months of campaigning (IMHO) was "you're likable enough" It was unfortunate, it was an ad lib, I think he learned his lesson. If he had continued saying stuff like that, I would have jumped back to Hillary. It made me mad and while it wasn't sexist per se, no man would have ever said that to another man. (Of course, no man would have said what Hillary said which he was responding to.)

I'd like to think he cringed when he saw himself on tape or thought about it later. Like I did when I heard it.

[hfojvt]

73. Oppressed and oppressors?

Is that really the way you see men and women in the United States today?

Then is it okay for me to apply a double standard to myself if I think I am oppressed by women?

[Hamlette]

78. I told ya....really, don't go there

oppressed might not be the right word but if you think men and women are on an equal playing field you are are not paying attention.

I'm not saying all men are oppressors and it is getting much better but honestly, we ain't there yet.

I had to threaten to sue to get a job as a lawyer in 1977 with bosses actually saying things like "I'm not going to have a woman lawyer working for me" or, more common "we've got one woman lawyer (out of 20 or 50) why do we need another one."

I can't tell you how many times I've heard bosses say "he needs a bigger raise, he has a family to support, women have husbands to support them."

Pay has gotten better but women still make less than men do for the same jobs.

So, no. You don't get to try and tell me you are oppressed by women. Did a woman treat you inappropriately one time? Maybe it was because she didn't like you (this is not intended as a personal attack) and yes, some women do have a chip on their shoulder, but there is a history of deep, systemic, real, discrimination against women throughout our society.

I don't expect you to kiss my ass because of it. Just don't try to tell me it doesn't exist and I'll try not to be confrontational to the many, many men out there who do treat me as their equals.

[cbayer]

7. It was there.

If you did not see it, it is because you chose not to or are unable to do so.

[johnaries]

13. From Dems? From the Obama campaign?

Why are they so mad at Obama?

[NanceGreggs]

56. But that's the problem, cbayer ...

(And I'm addressing this to you, as opposed to anyone else on this thread, because you have always been rational and intelligent in your arguments).

"If you didn't see it, it's because you chose not to or are unable to" is not a response. I have gotten the same response every time I have asked someone to point out specifics. If sexism was as blatant and obvious as many are claiming, why is the citing of a single incident of same too much to ask?

Did the media take pot-shots at Hillary's cleavage, her "shrill" voice, etc.? Yes - in the same way they referred to Kucinich as a garden gnome, and Edwards as "the Breck girl". But when did Obama, his campaign surrogates, his spokespeople, or the Democratic Party as a whole exhibit sexism that was detrimental to Hillary's candidacy?

[cbayer]

81. It's more subtle.

If I make a racist statement, most will readily recognize it. If there is sexism and I point it out, there will be arguments as to why it is not so.

It is hard to point out a specific statement, and, if I do, it will be rapidly disputed. It is not about individual words. It is about attitude.

I have been in politics. I was the woman in charge of 700 men. What I had to do to be acceptable is what I am talking about. Anytime I showed a sign of my femaleness, I opened myself to certain kinds of attacks that would be based solely on my sex. Do you follow me? If I was too hard, I was a bitch. If I was too soft, I was weak and hormonal. I walked this tightrope and I know how hard it can be. If anything, Senator Clinton exemplifies for me what it takes to be a woman in charge. She has overcome the odds and withstood the sexism that is rampant in our society. I, personally, could not take that battle and quit.

I do not think that Obama or his campaign were overtly sexist. I think it was more about the media and the general populace, in the big picture. And then there is the DU experience, where sexism was overt and brutal at times. I maintain that those that could not see it have a flawed perception.

I appreciate your having responded to me. I am very respectful of your perspective and your writing. As I have told you before, you have the power to sway perception and I have only asked that you use it wisely.

[NanceGreggs]

171. Thanks for the thoughtful response, cbayer.

Being of the female persuasion myself, I am well aware that sexism exists, and that it can be subtle indeed - just as racism, anti-Semitism, anti-Muslimism, etc. can be subtle as well.

My problem with the constant cries of sexism re Hillary's campaign, however, are many-fold.

Firstly, what you have just said yourself: it's not Obama's campaign specifically, but has more to do with the media and the general populace. I agree. But neither Obama nor the Democratic Party control the MSM, nor can they be held responsible for attitudes that exist in the general populace. And yet, I have heard both blamed on a consistent basis by Hillary supporters.

Second, while sexism exists, it has been all but completely diluted by women who "find" it in every action, every phrase, every nuance. It is one thing to "ignore" sexism; it is, IMHO, equally detrimental to the cause of true feminism to attach the label of "sexism" to statements and actions that have nothing to do with sexism at all.

Personally, I have criticized Hillary on four major points: praising McCain while dismissing her fellow Dem as "a speech", the Bosnia lie, the "assassination" remark, and the "white voters" comment. As a result of my criticism, I have been called a sexist, a self-loathing woman who kowtows to men, a female who is "afraid" of strong women, and a traitor to my sex - as though, had these remarks been made by a male Democratic candidate, not a single criticism would have been raised by anyone. I think we both know better than that.

In addition, I have a really hard time accepting what I call "selective sexism". There have been MANY posts on this board about Ann Coulter, wherein she has been called every derogatory name in the book, specifically aimed at her gender. The same can be said of posts about Laura Bush, Babs Bush - the list goes on. I don't see any great outcry from the women posters here when that happens; in fact, many of them waste no time adding their own comments. In other words, "sexism" is often deemed acceptable - as long as the target is a woman one doesn't like, as opposed to a woman whose candidacy one is supporting.

There is one rather humourous incident that happened to me a few weeks ago here on DU, which illustrates why I often take many shouts of "sexism" as being a less than serious position. I responded to a poster (who is now one of the dearly departed) by saying she was really stretching by trying to attach "sexism" to criticisms of Hillary's sudden desire to want the votes in FL and MI counted when she realized she was losing. Said poster (a female, according to her profile) replied back to me by calling me, and I quote, "the dumbest BITCH on DU."

Yes, sexism certainly does exist - most of us realize that. But just because it does exist, and just because it may sometimes be subtle, does not mean it is the underlying basis of every criticism of a woman - especially a female politician who, if she truly wants to be seen as equal, must be held accountable for her words and actions in the same way a male politician is, without herself or her supporters using cries of sexism as a shield to hide behind when mistakes are made.

As for my power to sway perception, while it is flattering to think that might be so, I'm afraid it isn't.

[cbayer]

175. I think we will meet in the middle here.

I have little interest in re-igniting the primary fires that have burned for way too long. I also have very little interest in defending the behavior of some people here on DU or elsewhere regarding this issue. That being said, there have been extreme positions taken on both sides. The all-or-none arguments about the role sexism has played in these primaries are both untrue. I would say the same for racism. To hold sexism responsible for all the problems that Clinton had in this race is as ridiculous as denying that it played no role.

I agree that crying wolf detracts from the credibility of real call-outs. I also agree that those that cry "sexism!", then use it as a weapon against women they don't like is very telling (the "dumbest bitch on DU" comment might be funny, if it were not so sad). I hear that you have been beaten up on this issue, and I agree that that is very unfair. We have all taken our share of heat during this period, and I am glad to see things starting to become more civil.

We will probably always disagree on Clinton. She has been inspirational to me, and I found many of the attacks on her personally painful. I think she has gone where no woman in this country has gone before, and, for that, I will always be grateful. But that is water under the bridge at this point. I am glad to be on the same team with you. As the divisiveness diminishes, we are going to have a great time.

[NanceGreggs]

178. I have no desire to stir up old arguments either ...

... which is why, of everyone responding on this thread, I made my inquiry of you - who have been level-headed throughout the worst of this war.

I don't think we disagree on Hillary as much as you might think. There is no question that she has inspired many, and encouraged many more to pursue their own goals, whatever they may be.

Where we may still disagree is on the point of "personal attacks", as I have seen too many criticisms (my own included) characterized as personal when they were restricted solely to political positions and public statements.

However, that's all behind us now - and I, too, am very glad we're on the same team!

:hi:

[EFerrari]

79. Faith based sexism?

The poster doesn't watch corporate media. That's where it occurred.

So, your assumption is about as wrong as possible and you just missed an opportunity to show someone what you did see.

[cbayer]

166. You may need to clarify, because I don't understand what you are saying.

I am not sure what you are referring to or what opportunity I missed. I don't watch televised corporate media either, but I read the newspaper and the internet, listen to radio, watch PBS. I also spend a lot of time on DU. The sexism has been rampant.

FrenchieCat's OP yesterday was a blessed relief after being told for months that my perceptions were all wrong. I was very grateful to have one of the strong Obama supporters give some recognition to the fact that sexism is alive and well.

[EFerrari]

168. I try to avoid the cable shows, too. It's good you didn't subject yourself

to that. It was awful.

[slinkerwink]

8. there were a lot of sexist comments in the media

[KittyWampus]

131. there was also a lot of propping Hillary up by the Media. From the start they bought

the "inevitable" myth.

They also padded her delegate count with her huge superdelegate lead so it always dwarfed Obama's REAL lead in delegates all the way from the beginning.

They then refused to report her campaign was essentially over months ago and kept repeating "you can't count a Clinton out" even when it was a mathematical certainty she was OUT.

For the few stray truly sexist comments made about Hillary, there was a wall of enabling her by the Mediawhores.

[DesertRat]

9. If you don't get it, then it's hard to explain it to you

I was not a Hillary supporter (see my sig. line), but I thought that the sexism in this race was very apparent. Hillary was frequently called names like bitch and c*nt. Pundits said she was "shrill". Cartoons depicted her as a witch. When she choked up one day, her "crying" was all over the news. There was also an usual amount of attention paid to her clothing. Hecklers said "Iron my shirt" and "Make me a sandwich."

None of this was ever said about the male candidates.

The fact that many "just don't get it" shows that our society is far less progressive than we pretend it to be.

[verges]

45. -----

"called names like bitch and c*nt."

So does this mean we can't call McCain names?

"Pundits said she was "shrill"."

So, when people comment about Lieberman's or McCain's voice they are being sexist?

"When she choked up one day, her "crying" was all over the news."

Actually, I'm surprised this wasn't a bigger problem. To me, the crying came across as a "Pity me-they're being mean!" The President needs to be tough, yet compassionate. Had she shed tears over an injured child, or the dreadful plight of a worker who had just lost his job and home of thirty years, it would have shown compassion. Instead, she offered self-pity. Would she have cried because other world leaders were mean to her?

Okay, "Iron my shirt" and "Make me a sandwich" are without a doubt over the top. But being a woman doesn't give her a free pass. Much of the so-called "sexism" was directed at her personally. Not at women as a whole.

[sandnsea]

15. It was much less than "shuck and jive"

and scary drug dealer, and doing who knows what in the neighborhood, and another Jesse Jackson, and kid, and "hip black friend", and the rest of the garbage that came directly out of the Clinton campaign.

[TTUBatfan2008]

26. And he's a scary Muslim...

don't forget that one. No group in this country is more discriminated against right now than Muslims and Hispanics. That's a fact. It has everything to do with bitterness over 9/11 and illegal immigration.

[pdxmom]

28. There most definiltely was sexism in the media. It was pretty blatant

and happened across the board, on virtually every network. But I have yet to see how Obama or the DNC were sexist, though they are bearing the brunt of the anger. I'm hearing a lot more about people not voting for Obama or the Dems than I am hearing that people are going to turn off their televisions or boycott any network.

[johnaries]

41. THAT's what I don't get! Why are Obama and the Dems being blamed?

[lastliberalintexas]

52. Who the heck is blaming Obama?

Yes, perhaps a few Clinton "supporters" on DU and other sites, but the vast majority of Clinton supporters and supporters of other candidates are just acknowledgint that sexism was present in this campaign, mostly from the media. I really haven't seem too many blaming Obama, but maybe I've missed those?

[johnaries]

57. Many of the former Hillary supporters who say they are voting

for McCain largely blame the "sexism" and are using it as an excuse to vote anti-Dem. Which is really what perplexes me.

[lastliberalintexas]

59. Again, I think many of those are just "supporters"

Obama had a few of those around here too, funny that the worst offender in my book has disappeared now that Clinton is out of the race and no longer providing fodder for such easy bashing.

I'd say for most of those "supporters" that the sexism is a a convenient excuse to vote based on their own racist views. And I would also say that the vast majority of Clinton AND Obama supporters will be voting D in November.

[LeFleur1]

67. Again and Again and Again

You want to know why people who recognize sexism blame Democrats and Obama?

I don't think blame is the right word. Disappointment that they didn't recognize it and say, "HEY, Stop that and discuss issues." Or the question remains, did they recognize it and just not think sexism is important enough to stand against? It was the seeming decision that the party would allow this kind of sh** without a murmur that was so offensive.

I saw no racism. No one called Obama the N word (like they called Hillary all the insulting sexist words) and if they had there would have been an uproar, and I'd have been the first one writing about that. Racism wasn't tolerated, but sexism was/is.
I'm very glad that in this country, most people will speak up if they hear a racist statement. But they should also speak up in the same way when sexism is used to put women down.
Hillary was called every sexist name in the book, described as a nut cracker and a ball breaker, and worse, by people in front of cameras speaking into microphones. It was disgusting to say the least. And a whole lot of women are very angry that no Democratic leaders spoke up at the time against it.

[WarfareArtist]

84. Wouldn't that be the equivalence of "opening the door" for her?

She's supposed to be the strong and independent woman candidate. Get one of her male surrogate to publicly denounce it as not to be perceived as a claim to victimhood.

The racism against Obama is more subtle. How did he become anti-American for not wearing a flag lapel pin? The rumor about him refusing to honor the flag and took the oath of office on a Qur'an? The non-existent Muslim school. Where was Clinton then? She's feigning ignorance of Obama's religious status that's where. Shall I refresh your memory? Does "not as far as I know" ring any bell?

I'm just saying that you shouldn't plunge a knife against someone who you want to watch your back for you...

Besides the Democrats have a habit of taking what they perceive to be the 'moral high ground' by not complaining even when they're being maligned (e.g., Gore, Kerry), and that's the GENERAL election. Sometimes kinda makes them look like pussies (a word which is as sexist as calling someone a dick).

[ShortnFiery]

92. "I saw no racism." WOW! You must have not been paying attention.

Bill and Hillary Clinton will *NOT EVER* reconcile with the larger AA community.

If they're entertaining any "delusions of graedeur" of saving the party in 2012, they'll do it withOUT the AA vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRwZQLdhEw

[Recursion]

150. You saw no racism in the primaries??!!??

Wow

[EFerrari]

30. It was definitely on the cable shows and in other media outlets.

The Obama camp didn't use it as a tactic to undermine her in the same way the Clinton camp tried to marginalize Obama as "the black candidate".

And, the Clinton campaign has encouraged their supporters to feel wronged where the Obama camp has encouraged people to keep moving.

So, here we are.

[Swamp Rat]

42. Right, but I do think the OP is overlooking rampant sexism in the mainstream media in general.

For instance, remember the GOP debate, and how Chris Mathews talked about the candidates' 'manly swagger' and how well dressed they were? Then when he and others talked about Hillary, she was criticized for her pantsuits (some of which I did not like), most often in a negative manner, referring to her physical appearance. If this was not sexism, then it was at least an example of how inane and superficial M$M has become. Of course, FUX Noise has built a cottage industry of promoting sexist and bigoted ideas.

¿todo bien?:hi: :hug:

[EFerrari]

50. Oh, I agree with that. Matthews was the WORST offender, too.

He was forced to apologize on the air and he didn't look very happy about it. :hi:

[johnaries]

51. Well, actually Swmpy, I didn't watch too many of the GOP debates.

So I did miss that one. I never watch Fox, and very little cable news at all. I never heard any statements about "aprons" or "making sandwiches", but maybe I just missed them. The only comments I heard about pantsuits came from my aunt "how can she afford a new one every night?" I did hear "Rev Wright" a lot, though.

But my main point was that I never heard sexist comments from the Left, other Dems, and especially from the Obama Campaign. And yet, some of these people are claiming they are not going to vote for Obama or even Dem because of the "sexism". I don't doubt the RW made plenty of sexist statements. And yet they are going to vote for McCain? THAT is what I don't get.

I obviously should have been clearer in my OP.

[Swamp Rat]

62. ok

I did not see or hear any sexism come from the Obama campaign either. Though he should not be blamed, some of his supporters did make sexist comments here on DU and elsewhere. In response, Hillary supporters reacted to this in various ways, sometimes appropriately and sometimes not. In the heat of the moment, emotions sometimes prevailed.

I hope we can move forward together. :grouphug:

[johnaries]

66. AMEN!

:grouphug:

[WarfareArtist]

87. Calling Hillary a bitch...

is as sexist as calling John McCain a dickhead.

If you prefer, in the future when time machine is invented we'll go back before now and call her an asshole instead. Happy?

[Swamp Rat]

94. Ah, CyberPieHole!

:hi:

So nice to see you.

How's your granite cookie diet coming along?

[WarfareArtist]

144. rather stale...

I wanted chocolate flavor

[johnaries]

44. Thank you. That's the best explanation I've heard.

As far as the media, I guess I just didn't see any of the things mentioned here. I mainly get my info from the web and don't watch cable news much. I do remember hearing "Rev Wright" over and over again, but I never heard anything about "aprons" or "sandwiches". Maybe I just got lucky? :shrug:

But even if there was a lot of it in the media, I still don't understand why some are refusing to vote for Obama or Dems for the actions of the RW and the media. The RW was the ones being sexist, not Obama, so they are going to vote for McCain? It makes no sense to me.

[EFerrari]

53. The cables shows, which I don't normally watch either, were the WORST

-- or, the worst that I saw or read, anyway. And, they did get a lot of "feedback" about it.

But it didn't come out of the Obama campaign. Nor did the Obama campaign make hay of it.

It doesn't make sense to me either. If these people are honestly concerned with women's rights and the problem of sexism, there is no way they could vote for McCain. There's something else going on here, imho.

[hardbop]

47. OK - it was there. But why blame Obama for it?

I just don't get it. It was in the media and maybe a few of the Obama supporters got out of line.

But Barack himself never uttered a sexist comment to her and that tone was never evident in any of his campaign material either.

Now I can see Hillary supporters being upset because Obama didn't take notice of these incidents and officially denounce them.

But Hillary is guilty of the same perceived indifference with regard to racism. She knew that many of her "hard working white supporters" were probably voting as much against Barack (cause he was black) as they were for her. But she never, as David Gergon suggested, took the high road and publicly rejected their vote.

And you wanna know the truth? I've said it before and I'll say it again. We gravely underestimate the number of non-blacks who have reservations about voting for blacks. Almost every race on this planet has people that believe blacks are beneath them. Even those among them who feel a woman cannot be president would still vote for a WHITE woman over any black person.

So in the end, Obama EARNED every one of his votes and delegates. His message brought in those who always saw him as a man first, and then eased the fears of SOME who may have been in that group I discussed before. Hillary lost nothing for being a woman and gained much more for being WHITE.

...and has it been confirmed that those guys chanting "Iron my clothes", "Fix Me a Sandwich", etc... were Democrats and not just Republican disruptors?

[Cha]

48. That's 'cause hilary ran a sub par

campaign and they don't want to blame it on reality.

[Bad Thoughts]

60. Some things to consider

I think there are no simple answers to your question. Sexist comments were made, mostly at the fringes of the media, and not by people that Democrats ought to have been listening to. I think there is little evidence that sexism influence how voters chose among the candidates. Certainly there was no effort to use gender as a means to influence the race by any campaign--not in the way that race was used.

The problem comes down to Clinton's use of gender. It some ways, she could us it as a rallying point. She referenced "the glass ceiling" in many of her speeches, suggesting that she wanted to mobilize people by attaching her campaign to the aspirations and advancement of women. I'm ok with that (I'm a Latino who supported Richardson at first). Doing so, though, may have exposed her.

But for the most part, the quality of the sexist comments against her did not mobilize voters against her, but manifested extreme disdain. Democracies are generally uneasy about inherited power, seeing it as unearned and arbitrary. However, this is manifested unfairly and uniquely against the women who marry powerful men. They are the one's who 'give' themselves to obtain power. Running as the inheritor of Bill Clinton's presidency exposed Clinton--people asked questions about what role she really played, whether she legitimately wielded power and influence during those years. If she did not, that she was outrightly lying. (It probably would have been better had she run just as the two-term senator from New York.) Many Dems had unresolved issues with Bill Clinton from his presidency, and may have made Hillary Clinton answerable to them.

Finally, you need to look at the image Clinton projected among her followers. To many, she was supremely qualified to be president. Seeing that required valuing her time as first lady in ways that others could not. If you saw the Clinton years as a co-presidency, then Obama's victories looked like Clinton was being passed up for a younger man, a legitimate concern that many women have.

IMO, sexism did not damage Clinton. There were many questions that she could not answer. She ran a poor campaign. She angered key constituencies. She could not both run on her husband's legacy and dismiss his policies (like NAFTA). But considering the sexist remarks thrown at Pelosi by right wing press in 2006, as she attempted to manufacture a Dem takeover of the House, I think what Clinton experienced was mild.

[OneAmerica]

63. OK, I too had trouble seeing sexism in the campaign. But this video convinced me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg2iM

Truly, sexism came from both wings of the MSM. Still, Obama had nothing to do with it and not voting for Obama because of any foolish charges you want to level in your mind against him as playing a part in this is downright shameful(I'm looking at you Geraldine Ferraro).

[fadedrose]

68. Sexism, chauvinism....

These are reasons to blame others for the Clintons' poorly executed campaign and mistakes made even before Hillary entered the race, like some of her votes - particularly the war. The buck don't stop at the Clintons' desks.

[Darth_Kitten]

104. If you don't see the EXTREME sexism in american society, then I feel sorry for you.

Those of us watching it from outside the U.S. see it. It's amazing how horrible women are still treated in the U.S.

Quite frankly, it's a joke.

[johnaries]

69. A Final thought, a question, and a thank you!

Obviously there was more sexism in the MSM than I was aware of, but probably because I don't follow the MSM that much. But not from the Obama camp (except maybe for a few overly-passionate supporters that are in the vast minority). But I think that most of us can agree that it doesn't make any sense for anyone to vote against Obama because of the sexism of others!

Do you think it would help if Obama tried to open a discourse on sexism similar to the one he tried to open on racism? Or at least denounced the sexist remarks of others (especially the RW)?

Finally, thanks to all of you for your responses. I love this site and I love you all, even if it gets a little heated at times. I hope you join me in trying to ensure that the Dems win landslide victories in the Presedential and Congressional races so we can start to correct the mess the Republicans have put us in!

Thanks, again!

[Seabiscuit]

70. If you don't get it

then clearly you're a sexist through and through and imagine all the sexist crap that's been flying in the MSM and from the Obama camp and his supporters is just business as usual.

[EFerrari]

76. This is why 9/11 happened.

:rofl:

[cooolandrew]

71. I mean they can hardly call things unfair when the campaign had a 200 sd head start.

[bridgit]

74. When? That would be some 70 ~ 75% of male M$M media coverage...

some little slight here or there for the last several months, maybe doesn't really matter much unless you've suffered it personally. I've had brothers (one of them did rape me from 8 ~ 11 years of age so there's that is that sexist?) so sometimes little effects me in that way. But it's out there. Like porn maybe when a guy puts in some porn to get his jollies up & running :eyes: every woman knows it when she experiences it, it's not just Hillary supporters as you are trying to frame the issue.

Matthews was called on the carpet and made to apologize for it for crying out loud, and he's coast to coast, come on!! I don't understand what you don't understand about it. Cause it's been right there all along. Like the racist shit of if you *don't* vote for Obama you're a racist. Plain as day. From Obama supporters and the likes of Michelle Barnard.

Sexism is small potatoes these days, prolly why you never seen it drive past ;)

[EFerrari]

80. You didn't read this thread either or you'd know the poster

doesn't watch cable.

I hope most people are more attentive to the problem of sexism than you've been to this discussion.

[bridgit]

83. How pretentious can you possibly be? You stated as fact some segments of my reply here...

read it, in case you have forgotten http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6326393&mesg_id=6326717 this isn't the produce dept of your whole foods outlet; you're reply here to me is that of a buffoon. I've read the OP, I am not required to read this entire thread don't be so fucking silly. I am completely aware that it is your every intent to repetitively negate my life experience', as is the way of many Obama supporters here...good luck with that.

I reject your condescension out of hand, go away

[QC]

127. "How pretentious can you possibly be?"

In this case, exceedingly.

[EFerrari]

141. When reading becomes pretention, we're in trouble n/t

[bridgit]

146. Then *you're* in trouble n/t

[RandomKoolzip]

75. Well, you're a man (so am I), so I guess it's sad but inevitable that you

wouldn't recognize the overt and covert examples of sexism directed at HRC throughout the campaign. Few males are truly aware of the privilege (i.e not having to be seen as a spokesperson for their gender, hint hint) they are born into and thus a lot of sexism is thus invisible to them. I'm not saying this as a judgment call, just saying it as a reminder that males don't get to define what is and isn't sexist for females. It doesn't work that way. Yes, calling a woman a "cunt" is an obvious example of sexism, and one everyone I think (I HOPE!) can recognize. There's covert sexism like the accusations I saw on Du about how her menstrual cycle would interfere with her ability to govern. There was also the "Bro's Before Ho's" t-shirt. These are examples of covert sexism coming from the left. From the right, there was McCain's answer to a reporter's question ("How can we beat the bitch?"), there was the "IRON MY SHIRT!" guy, there were endless talk radio and commentator jabs at her supposed "weakness" based in gender dynamics. That's expected from the right, I suppose; from the left, from supposed progressives, those other examples are especially disappointing. Any discussion that strayed from the issues and ventured into areas of specualtion based in how, as an exemplar of her gender, her style of governance would differ from a man's, is sexism.

There's also the overt sexism, i.e. specualtion about how much behind-the-scenes work Bill is doing for HRC, or using couched terms like "shrill." That's sexism. It exsits, and I'm glad this primary season, as contentious as it was, was finally able to raise these issues; there DOES need to be a public discussion of sexism and misogyny in the media, if only to educate the masses of people who, like the OP, misunderstand or find it difficult to locate the nature of the problem. Women - not just individual women, but women as a unignorable force - need to be listened to, they need a political forum in which to make their issues and concerns heard and not dismissed. as a side note: I apologize if I, myslef, as a DUer, participated in any actions which could be construed as sexist; if I did, it was due to my imperfect understanding of gender and/or plain ignorance and not out of malice. I was not a CLinton supporter, but I would have gladly, happily voted for her had she gotten the nom. I thought she was a great candidate who, unfortunately, ran a campaign which rarely struck the right chord with voters or the media.

In any case, like I said, the one happy thing to emerge from the bile and spew of this primary season was the recognition, finally, that the media engages in what many women identify as sexism. It's up to us, the liberal base, after the exit of HRC, to now further the dialogue in a way that educates and uplifts both genders.

[Maddy McCall]

97. Excellent post, RKZ.

Wish I could recommend it.

[Symarip]

113. I think you have covert and overt mixed up

I thought to be covert was to fly under the radar. Bro's before Ho's Democrats don't really fit that description.

Edited to add: otherwise, great post.

[RandomKoolzip]

143. Yup...I messed 'em up. Late night, slightly stoned.

Oh well....ooops!

[PeaceNikki]

145. Wow! Nicely put. I agree with Maddy, I wish I could rec this reply.

:thumbsup:

[George_Bonanza]

82. I wasn't aware that Chris Matthews was the most powerful man in America

Apparently, his thoughts and opinions reflect the entire media, Obama campaign, and DNC.

[dorktv]

85. There could be the view that the sexism was just one layer of negativity that hurt her chances

over all. People do not want to vote for someone who is "shrill" or who "cackles" or is a "bitch."

It was not the main reason for the campaigns failure (there are plenty of other reasons) however it is one of the more painful ones.

[Life Long Dem]

88. If your looking for an excuse to why she lost. You would understand the "why". n/t

[ShortnFiery]

89. What's IMO, unforgivable is that HRC cried "sexism" at every opportunity - she USED it as a weapon

As such, IMO, she's set back women's rights.

First and foremost, HRC is "a Clinton" and as such, she's been treated like political royalty throughout this Primary.

Shame on her - sexual discrimination does not exist when YOU are a person with POWER.

HRC *used* and *manipulated* the sensitivities of far too many "good people" and she's still covertly attempting to F**k-UP the G.E.

Why?

Because HRC and her husband have been so damn spoiled and DRUNK with POLITICAL POWER, they'd sacrifice anything, EVEN YOU, in order to either cheat their way in the WH this year - or wait until 2012.

I wish people would take a little while and REFLECT on HRC's *tactics* throughout this campaign?

I honestly believe if Americans objectively review HRC's behavior, they will conclude that - it was vile. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRwZQLdhEw

[Darth_Kitten]

105. Are all the rapists, murderers, dictators in the world setting back MEN's rights?

:eyes: Hmmm, where's the outcry? :sarcasm:

Setting back the women's movement? Thanks for the laugh.

I wish SOME PEOPLE would look back and reflect on why they are so ready to dismiss sexism. Maybe some women need to understand why they seem to resent their own sex so much, whilst giving every man out there a free pass.

Pretty sad and pathetic, IMO.

[ShortnFiery]

124. "Pretty sad and pathetic, IMO." Yes, feigning self-righteous indignation over superficial ...

demonstrations of "sexism" in order to USE IT as a BLUNT FORCE INSTRUMENT was "pretty sad and pathetic" for HRC to do. After all, she was "political royalty" not a wage slave.

I had it much like HRC when I entered the newly integrated (from the WACs) Army as an Officer vice Enlisted Soldier. You see, HRC being in "the upper ranks" and myself had mentors who cared for us.

For example, I remember a LTC in our command nixing an assignment for me to be transferred to a "certain company" because the Company Commander was a notorious womanizer. HRC was protected by her husband's MEGA-ORGANIZATION - she did NOT experience truly harsh *sexism* even by the M$M.

More than anything Chris Matthews (MSNBC) is merely *spastic* and socially insensitive. He spins TRIPE each and every day ... and it's not all negative to just women.

What troubles me more than anything else is that "Women's Organizations" such as NOW does just fine for the white middle-class women while those disenfranchised women of color are all but non-existent in their (and many other white older middle class women's eyes).

The Civil Rights Movement is for *all peoples* Women and men of all ethnicities and backgrounds.

IMO, the arrogance of certain older white women that ONLY "Hillary" is qualified to be President - smacks of a shameless sense of WHITE ENTITLEMENT. There are many examples of CLOSE RACES. The true time to evaluate a leader's underlying character is not when he/she wins, but HOW he/she loses.

It just may be time to search our own "dark recesses" of consciousness because it's NOT all about "white women" but about the larger issue - HUMANITY?

The Primary Race is over: Obama won. If you deny this then you must admit to not accepting "the rules" or that you perceive that "a certain woman" is ABOVE the rules.

Shinin' the Lite on White Privilege
by Sharon Martinas
© Sharon Martinas, 1998.

In social movements led by people of color, white allies have historically supported demands of people of color for a short while, then gone back to their own issues. When whites break the coalitional power of the people, the *only* guarantor that racial reforms will be implemented and *maintained,* all progressive movements end up suffering the backlash. Here are a few examples:


In 1920, white women got the vote after 100 years of struggle. But they got it by promising Southern segregationists that they would use the vote to support white supremacy. Today, a divided women's movement still lacks the power to enact mandatory maternity leave for all working parents, despite the fact that women are more than 50% of all voters.

In 1973, abortion finally became legal in the U.S. But white middle class women, the main beneficiaries of Roe v. Wade, did not wield their organizing power to oppose the Hyde Amendment (which restricted abortions for women on welfare) or the sterilization of Puerto Rican and other poor women of color. So when the Right rolled back abortion rights in the 1980's, there was no powerful multi-racial feminist movement to stop it. Today, 80% of U.S. counties are without abortion services.


The legacy of 'the strategy of the slave owners' demonstrates that when oppressed whites protest against their own oppression, while refusing to simultaneously challenge racial oppression and white privilege, they can win short term victories (a union, legislative reform, a constitutional amendment, etc.) But when they organize in this way, they themselves become oppressors of people of color. Their silence is consent to racial oppression and white privilege.

And they sacrifice the possibilities for building coalitions with activists of color which could challenge the power of the descendants of the slave owners -- the capitalist power which oppresses all of us today.

[tanglefoot]

155. That definitely was sad and pathetic

To use a porn term, I got tired of seeing the superficial demonstrations of sexism "fluffed" up for the supporters.

[jonestonesusa]

163. Great post...

The divide-and-conquer strategy never goes away, does it? Even now on this thread with the discussion of sexism, the treatment of Michelle Obama by the media never comes up. Why not even one prop or expression of outrage for the potential first lady that is no doubt facing sexism from the MSM and DU, right?

We live in a society where institutional sexism and racism endure - why should any of us be surprised that it comes up in a campaign with a female and African American candidate? However, sexism and racism are not one-dimensional, in part because of the obvious fact that privilege is not equally distributed based on either gender and race. Obama, for instance, suffers from discrimination due to his race, but he also wields more power and privilege that many whites do due to his social class and educational background. Clinton suffered from sexism in the campaign, but she also wields more power and privilege than I do as a black male because of her class background and political history.

So, can we think in more complex terms about sexism and who it affects, minimally by recognizing in our rhetoric statements that not all women are white, and some women may thus have a different take on this campaign? This should be obvious given that it is not only men who support Obama. Obama, in fact, has been gracious at many points in this campaign towards Hillary Clinton, not pushing the sexism angle in even the same way that Clinton did with "Shame on you, Barack Obama," "I would have left that church," etc. The OP challenges the perception that the sexism came from the Obama campaign, asks for examples of that, and gets no examples from anyone here. There was his use of "sweetie," which I don't think is appropriate in professional contexts, though when you have small children it creeps into your speech (not to mention it's common in Southern contexts and usually not taken as a sexist slur). There were a couple of other gaffes by Obama that maybe someone could remind us of that are worth discussing. To me these are reminders that no one can step outside the social system that treats sex and gender identities in structured ways.

I agree with everyone here that the MSM pushes sexist angles - of course it does, and it's a damn shame. So maybe Ferraro and Terry McAuliffe should spend less time on Fox News network and the Limbaugh show pushing the case against Obama from any scorched-earth angle they can concoct.

I will continue working in real life against sexism and I believe that most of us will. But the criticism that the Obama campaign pushed the sexism angle is unsupported. To paint all Obama supporters with a broad brush is also poor reasoning; Obama supporters are probably more diverse in terms of cultural identity than Clinton supporters, I would guess. And if a new feminist movement goes back to being a white women's movement without being called that, it will not succeed in addressing the broader and deeper issues of privilege that divide us.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

98. You're kidding, right?

Cackle,shrill, pantsuit, hair, cleavage, fake tears, real tears, sounds like an ex-wife, sounds like a mom, ugly, mean, menopausal, pms-ing, looks, weight, and on and on.

I got into it with someone right here who claimed that the ONLY word he could think to use to describe Hillary's voice was shrill.

Why did he HAVE A NEED to describe Hillary's voice when he didn't have a need to descibe the voice of other candidates?

By the way, I have always been an Obama supporter, but do not think that there hasn't been any sexism. There has, and it makes me sick.

[onetwo]

101. Sexism reared its ugly head because of the media's/public's familiarity with her.

Let's face it, Hillary's been in the public eye for years. The Monica thing was a big disgrace and dare I say that the big H lost a bit of respect for sticking around (even though that was the option that made the most sense). It was a sex scandal, and jokes and off-color remarks (maybe not exactly sexist, but definitely gender-based) were made back then about how she was taking the whole situation. Let's not forget that American comics and late-night show hosts had a field day with that material. She became the nation's "lady down the block that everybody gossips about because she is in a bad relationship." Combine that with her penchant for covering up her feminine side except when politically expedient... There already existed a not-so-kind perception of HRC way before the beginning of this primary season.

Frankly, I don't see any other female candidate getting this kind of treatment (at least not as outwardly or blatantly). HRC is very unique in that her history and her own behavior attract it. Not to render it excusable, of course.

I'm sure Al Sharpton had to listen to some pretty harsh comments when he tried to run a few years ago. As with HRC, it's just who he is.

[Berry Cool]

103. I saw Hillary use sexism when it suited her to imply she was best for the job.

I heard her imply that if there's anyone who knows how to clean up a mess, it's a woman, so she was ideally qualified to go to the White House with a broom and a mop and a vacuum cleaner and clean up the mess.

She said of Obama that if he "couldn't stand the heat he should get out of the kitchen"--and said that she, herself, was quite comfortable in a kitchen, implying this was so specifically because she's a woman.

Also, when it came to being told she had supposedly "masculine" traits--such as "testicular fortitude"--she lapped it right up.

She acted tough when she was able, and when she wasn't, her and her husband's attitude was "why are you picking on THE GIRL?"

Don't kid yourself. She used sexism when it suited her ends, just as much as she was a victim of it.

[Skwmom]

106. It's a means to anger her supporters and divide Democrats.

As a woman, I know what sexism looks like and what occurred in the primary wasn't sexism. And using it in such phony way really diminishes the reality of sexism.

[Bad Thoughts]

107. Wes Clark and the Sexism Charge

I think it is interesting that many posters are focusing on questions of Bill CLinton's involvement in Hillary CLinton's campaign (and possible White House) as an example of sexism. For a along time, the Clintons promoted the collaborative nature of their marriage, yet during the campaign HRC seemed at pains to define the role of her husband. Bill Clinton's active and visible presence only stoked those concerns.

I'm certain many women find it difficult to escape from the shadows of their husbands. There is a temptation to suspect that they became powerful and wealth by "sleeping with the boss."

What I think is a bit ridiculous is that Hillary Clinton was hardly the first person to be harmed by the perception that Bill Clinton was behind the scenes. Wes Clark was harmed by the innuendos that he was a stalking horse. Unfortunately, he was never able to define his relationship with the Clintons, especially because they never endorsed during the nomination process. In other contexts, commentators (especially conservative--those who seem to make up the source of many complaints) contextualized Democratic policies as giving into or surrendering power to the Clintons.

[cap]

110. Watch this video

You may not agree with it; but you will understand, why women are thinking this way.
http://www.womensmediacenter.com/sexism_sells.html

[MethuenProgressive]

111. The OP really needs to watch this video.

But I really doubt the OP will.

[cap]

114. Whatever you may think of Hillary, you can understand that there is a lot of pain

that needs to be addressed...This question needs to be posed to the Obama campaign. It can't be just sit down and shut up.

[ShortnFiery]

128. When you lose. A quality leader, reflects and then graciously concedes. If HRC does not follow ...

through with this task, I will blame HER, not her supporters, first and foremost.

The LEADER sets the tone. If there's still resentments come August - the lion's share of the blame should be squarely placed on "The Clintons" and their surrogates.

It was a close race and HRC lost. Nothing was taken away from her - she LOST by the rules of the DNC that she and her supporters initially agreed to.

Now, IMO, it's all up to HRC and her surrogates to enthusiastically support Obama. If she fails to do this convincingly, she reveals "a dark heart."

[cap]

132. regardless of what Hillary does or doesn't do

there are a lot of sentiments and issues regarding women that need to be addressed...

[ShortnFiery]

133. No there isn't. You move on. Address them in your neighborhood or during local Democratic

meetings BUT with regard to the GE, it's full speed ahead.

It's NOT *all* about older white women here ... it's about CIVIL RIGHTS. Don't forget that the AA community may never reconcile with the Clintons?

These are now ancillary issues to the G.E.

Those who truly wish to make a change for the better need to make that change within The GRASS ROOTS of their communities.

[cap]

140. it must be addressed at all levels from the local through the GE

there are things to be done in the local elections such as some semblance of proportional leadership... It can't be mostly male team leads with the women doing the leg work.

It must also be done on a national level through the GE. As president, one of Obama's tasks will be to reinstate women's rights removed by Bush. But even reinstatement is not enough. We need the ERA for starters.

[rodeodance]

115. Everyone needs to wtch this video and silly questions such as the OP will

hopefully not be posted again

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

120. Chris Matthews, Buchanan, Glenn Beck and Fox News...

This is the reason to punish the Democratic Party and the Obama Campaign?

You know what this video is? A pack of assholes acting like asshoes -- there aren't exactly ground-breaking revelations here. But should I vote for McCain because Bill O'Reilly is a moron?


Should I allow Roe v. Wade to be overturned because the people who I oppose and have always opposed behaved like the jerks that they are? That video had not one NOT ONE clip from Barak Obama denigrating Hillary Clinton on account of her gender. NOT ONE clip from anybody officially associated with the Obama Campaign denigrating Hillary Clinton on account of her gender.

You're pissed off at the treatment Hillary got from the MSM, and I totally get that. But you're directing your anger in the wrong direction.

[cap]

122. obama is getting the spillover from the sentiments aroused in this video

and needs to deal with it. The key thing I keep reminding people is how to transition women from the sentiments aroused here and moved towards a positive direction. Just voting for Obama isn't going to work.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

125. It was suggest elsewhere that Obama should give a speech...

Addressing the subject of gender, in much the same way as he did to address the issues of race.

Good Idea? Bad Idea?

[cap]

129. He does need to do something along those lines...

but a little thought as to how to frame it is in order. Something directly from him needs to be done; but I am wondering if he needs to do it alongside Michelle, Nancy Pelosi, HRC, Sibelius, Mikulski, etc. What he says and how it is framed is very important. He cant appear condescending to women and it would be really good if he framed it in a manner that doesn't raise male hackles...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

135. My concern as well...

If he does something of this nature, does it appear to be pandering? Although pandering to the single largest demographic would appear to always be a wise move, one doesn't want to give the appearance that the candidate is "begging" for support.

[cap]

139. that's why the framing is so critical

It both the What and the How it's done.

[ShortnFiery]

130. Bullshit! The onus was on HRC but she was happy to just use perceived "sexism" as a bludgeon

to intimidate the M$M. It worked most of the time but with a price, i.e., resentment.

You don't intimidate people into behaving in a proper manner. You openly discuss the issues, not threaten. HRC was all about intimidation and self-righteous indignation. We were all tap dancing on glass with her. Nobody wishes to have a leader who is ALWAYS "above it all." We've endured that the past eight years. NO MORE! :nuke:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

136. This is no longer about Hillary...

Bear in mind that the last two presidential elections were decided by only 2.5 million votes. That's only about 1% of the total votes cast. In the event that the 2008 election becomes a horse race, it would behoove Obama (and all his supporters) to find ways to build bridges to EVERY voter, regardless of our recent history.

Some of these voters are unreachable (and most will be Tombstoned in about 48 hours) but the rest need to won back to our side. Winning elections is about addition, not division.

[DemExpat]

123. YES! Watch This!

DemEx

[DemExpat]

134. and add this one to the library of sexism used in the campaign

"We've come a long way, baby."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke64670GkZ8&feature=related


Maybe some of these examples will give those who deny sexism in the campaign a clue as to why some Hillary supporters are extremely angered about this primary, why the sexism becomes personal to women and why they link it at this time to Obama and his campaign.

Yeah, its all as the OP says, "just sour grapes". :puke:

DemEx

[cap]

142. I understand what is being said in the video

some of it, I agree with... and some of it, I don't. But I think some acknowledgement of the underlying pain that these videos needs to be reckoned with... some acknowledgement that during the past 8 years we have lost ground under the Bush administration and this has caused some serious pain to women.

[Buzz Clik]

117. It happened, and it happened a lot.

[FlaGranny]

126. Chris Matthews?

No one here did, but the MSM did their share. It worked both ways though, cause they couldn't stop talking about race either.

[Marie26]

137. I don't get how you can't get it. nt

[rasputin1952]

147. Here's my take on this thing...

There are literally thousands of women that could/should run for president, all with varying degrees of expertise. While I don't believe that any "ism" should be pasted to a candidate, one thing is glaringly clear, (at least to me and hundreds of thousands of others), HRC has enough baggage to dill Ellis Island four times over. The moniker "sexism" is overused; she ran a good campaign in the beginning, she hit all of the good points, and then she fell apart and did just about everything wrong that a candidate can do wrong. For the record, she went into the gender mode long before others brought it up. Sure, it was an undercurrent, but no more so than the thought that a bush/Clinton/bush Clinton "dynasty" was in the making; and that, whether overt or covert, had a lot to do w/her loss.

Perusing DU over the past few months, HRC was not the only "victim" of "sexism". Pelosi, Ferraro, and a host of other women were all drawn into the fray. To be blunt, the last 1/3 of HRC's candidacy was a real nasty can of worms.

She gave it a shot, she lost. When Richardson, Kucinich and the others dropped out, did anyone call "whiteism" or "hispanicism"...no. Face it, she blew out at the end, it had nothing to do w/gender, she finished up with a lousy campaign, and even after there was no possibility of her getting the #'s necessary, she fought on, not because she was a woman, but because she was driven by ego.

I have respected HRC fro a long time, but when we start to look for excuses, we should only look at facts. Her last third of the campaign was a grasping at straws, she didn't make it, and she turned a lot of people against her when the "egoism" took root.

There will be a female president someday, it won't be HRC, but there will be one, and almost assuredly a Dem. I look forward to that day, and I am sure that our first female president will do a fine job.

So...accept that HRC came in second, that is reality, and she did women a real service in the political arena. Now let's beat McCain and the neo-cons back into hell...after all, that's what this is all about.

[LynneSin]

157. I was sexist if I supported Obama and racist if I supported Clinton

I couldn't win this election - I voted for Biden

[Prophet 451]

167. There was a lot of sexism

No doubt, the Clinton campaign massively overused the sexism charge but it was very much out there and not just the mouth-breathers either. I don't know how much of the corporate media you watch but there was a fair amount of derogatory and sexist language (Tweety being especially guilty), there was the Hillary nutcracker (took me a while to see that one because nutcracker parodies of public figures have a long tradition here) and that disgusting "Bros before Hoes" shirt. There was even a certain amount of it on DU (although the mods usually cleaned it up very quickly).

Understand, none of this came from the Obama campaign. I think the problem is that, as much as there was real sexism at work, the Clinton campaign so overused the charge of "sexism" and directed it at any and all criticism of Clinton that I think to some of her supporters, it became a case of truth being created by frequent repetition. The Clinton campaign went from ignoring the sexism entirely (which I think was a mistake) to charging that any criticism of any kind had a sexist motive (which was equally a mistake). Her supporters went even further with several charging that the only reason anyone would choose to vote for someone other than Clinton was sexism. In doing so, it made it that much harder to counteract the instances of genuine sexism.

In short, sexism was a factor in this campaign but it wasn't the biggest factor behind Hillary's loss (personally, I think that was probably Penn) and a certain amount of the charges of sexism are, yes, sour grapes. Some of the other charges of sexism though, have merit to them.

[bkcc]

169. From the media, yes. From Obama, no.

The accusations that Obama was sexist are, in my opinion, laughable. I truly think that there are a lot of Clinton supporters who just want someone to blame for her campaign's failure.

There were several talking heads in the media who were quite sexist, but it wasn't Obama's fault that happened.

[Raineyb]

183. Unfortunately, it seems as though Obama is being held to account for the media

How far removed from Obama does someone have to be for Obama not to be held accountable for what some random person said?

Regards

[noiretextatique]

170. "cries of sexism" is dismissive

no further comment.

[MaraJade]

172. "Iron My Skirt"

Maybe this snappy little article will help you to understand.

No matter who you vote for in the GE (and I think that I'll Probably Be Staying Home), thinking people agree
that Hillary did a signal service for democracy in her historic run for the presidency. But the
greatest thing that happened during her primary campaign was uncovering the deep seated misogyny
of the American people. We MUST eliminate sexism or we are CERTAIN to fail as a nation.



". . .Rarely has men's terror of women with more brains than a Bratz doll been on such public display. And, of course, men were what we mostly saw up there on the small screen, yakking and blathering away.

It wasn't just men, though. Thank you, Hillary, for letting us get a good look at female sexism: the catty fashionistas and Style page dingbats obsessing over her clothes, her hair, her weight, her cleavage, her laugh. Air America's Randi Rhodes calling her a "big fucking whore," Maureen Dowd offering up her twice-weekly dose of vinegar and dozens of women writers musing prettily about why they and their friends all hate Hillary. Could it be they're jealous? Not, as novelist Mary Gordon has suggested, of Hillary's bagging of sexy Bill (yuck) but of her unsinkable ambition and drive. Hillary's run upset the carefully balanced apple cart of trade-off and resignation and semi-suppressed frustration that is how women of the professional class accommodate to patriarchy lite. . ."

Read the whole article here:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080623/pollitt

[Hamlette]

180. here's a great video clip of some examples from this election

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-IrhRSwF9U&eurl=http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2008/05/27/sexism_sells/
note the comments at the bottom.

Men hate women. Hard to conclude anything else.

[SOS]

184. Amid all the talk of sexism

whether on the Wall Street media, or the New York Times or DU, there is almost no discussion about the real reason HRC lost:
"Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq 2002"

[PoliticalAmazon]

185. Because of the Hillary Aerobics (climbing on the cross for nothing)....

I am embarrassed that a woman ran this time. She has done more to make women look weak, manipulative, petty and vindictive.

But the cries of sexism for no legitimate reason are the worse because it diminishes and calls into doubt REAL incidences of sexism.