Hillary Clinton's worst fear. Two words: Kathleen Sebelius.

[mystieus]

http://www.chron.com/commons/persona.html?newspaperUserId=michaeldh&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3amichaeldhPost%3adc850397-5857-4533-8b0f-e13df54b8dff&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending

She could take the nomination away from Clinton in 2012. Handily.

Hillary would be forced to run on having had the nomination “stolen” you see. Sebelius as a red state governor would take away her “working man” angle out of the gate, and by virtue of being one of the very best governors in the country (in real ways) brings executive experience Hillary just doesn’t have. A fresh face that got there under her own steam, etc.

Do the mental math on it and Hillary would have to run as the woman scorned in 2008 you see. Or on national experience, which her Iraq vote and America’s preference for Washington outsiders will squelch.

No, I think anyone looking at a Sebelius – Clinton primary match up in 2012 would say Clinton would very likely be defeated handily. I think if she were on the ticket this time around then it would be a landslide. But could still take her regardless.

And if I see it, I think Hillary Clinton sees it.

So I think this is about building her brand, getting as many people to carry her torch in case Obama loses this time around to face the Sebelius challenge.

But it is Sebelius and others like her that Hillary fears. She sees the writing on the wall, and is not satisfied at having taken a large chunk out of the glass ceiling single handedly.

And so she sees this in permanent terms. Senate majority leader and NY governor are three steps back in her mind from the prize, and she sees her chances not of just this shot but all in the future dimming. And the triangulation is falling apart as the darkness closes in on all sides.

I feel sorry for her; she has put up the good fight. She has done a lot for women.

But she has done herself no favors the last month in my view, for the long term. In fact she has done all the right things to open the door for Obama to offer Sebelius the spot on the ticket rather than her.

The writing is on the wall.

[still_one]

1. Senator Clinton is not going to run for president again

The truth is people didn't vote for Senator Clinton NOT because of gender, but because of her position on the IWR, the Kyle/Lieberman ammendment, and bankrupcy bill among other things

The way she managed her campaign was pathetic. Mark Penn should have never been hired. What a waste of money

[Donald Ian Rankin]

5. Except that half the party *did* vote for Clinton...

That said, I don't think she will ever become president - I think that after this campaign she probably won't run again, even if Obama loses and the nomination is up for grabs in 2012.

[ima_sinnic]

8. not true. Many, many republicans voted for her b/c they wanted her to run against McCain

(which kind of proves it's a good thing she lost, because they knew the republicans would be moved to turn out in droves to vote against her) -- some of them still post here, former His44.com shills (now running McCainis44.com) and other infiltrators and disruptors who just wanted division and disunity among Democrats. Also, of those real Democrats who voted for her early in the primaries, later polls showed that, in California for example, Obama would win now, they would switch their vote. He was not as well known at the beginning and she was just coasting on her name recognition.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. and MORE republicans voted for Obama than for Clinton

Democrats clearly preferred Clinton.

[sellitman]

25. Link?

Even with Operation Chaos?

I doubt it. But go ahead and educate me.

[Tesha]

29. The point MonkeyFunk will *NEVER* address is that...

...many of the Republicans voting for Obama actually
*WANT OBAMA TO WIN* and will vote for him again come
November whereas many of the Republicans who voted for
Clinto were doing it only to "MonkeyWrench" our primary
process, attempting to cause us to chose a candidate
they knew they could defeat in November. Many of these
Republicans voting for Clinton had no intention of
voting for her in November; they'd be voting for the
Repubican candidate no matter who we eventually chose.

Tesha

[sellitman]

30. I have never seen facts to support his claim at all though.

The Limbaugh cross over voters voted Hillary from what I heard. So much so that it might have given her the popular vote if you discount the caucus States.

[papau]

33. Yep GOP votes for Obama are conversions while GOP votes for Hillary are haters screwing Dems

[Blarch]

35. Yep.

Monkeyfunk has been exposed.

She loves to spin. She knows the truth...but will push the spin instead. Don't hold your breath waiting for her to post a link to back up her absurd claim ...it will never appear.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

47. Very important

distinctions that go right over some people's head.

[TexasObserver]

40. Huge difference, though. GOP voters for Hillary did so to sabotage Dem efforts.

The GOP voters who voted for Hillary did so to sabotage our primaries, not because they like Hillary or intend to support any Democrat in the fall. The GOPers who voted for Obama did so because they like him and intend to vote for him in the fall.

You already know this. Everyone who has been paying any attention at all knows this.

Please make today the day you stop bathing in self pity over losing and get on board with Obama and the Democratic party for this year's election. You lost. Time to move on. Time to focus on the fall, and stop tending your imaginary wounds.

[ccharles000]

20. I voted for Hillary...

because I liked her more and thought she would be a stronger leader. I still adore her.

[Peacetrain]

36. I know what you mean.. I feel the same about

Senator Obama... I relate to the Obamas more, being Midwesterners and all.. but that is as honest a reason to vote for a person as any I have read.. I just liked them better either one would be a great leader and have basically the same platform.. I think Senator Clinton is a fine person and you have good reason to adore her.. It maybe is just too much within one family, husband and wife..but they are a very talented family in the political arena

[papau]

32. Bull Shit - most GOP voted for Obama - not Clinton - but no female VP for Obama so no worry

[Cheap_Trick]

43. proof?

of course not, but don't let that stop you from spewing your bullshit.

[vaberella]

10. Huh? Most voted for her name and sex, rather than voted for her.

What people seem not to get with the Clinton situation and unfortunately, I feel happens to be the case is two major things.

Clinton came to the forefront for 2 reasons. Her name and her sex. People speak about sexism but they dont' realize it was coming from the Clinton camp once she put in the nomination and it's disgusting.

Several Clinton fans were asked about the issues she stands on, on television and what separates her from Obama. Most couldn't name one issue of Clintons except for Healthcare. As for what separates on various levels, you'd hear, "he's too slick". Or other idiots would bring up Wright.

This is not to marginalize her in any way. But Hillary wasn't the first woman to run for President in the Democratic party, she's the third person. Funny isn't it?! People make it seem as though she's he first. But she's not. She's the third, after two black women. Neither of which though, made it as far as Clinton. Their colour could have been a factor.

In any event, to go back to Hillary. If you listen to Repubs like, Ann Coulter, you'll see my point made. She says she hated McCain and would strongly support and camp for Hillary Clinton---because she's a woman. Ann Coulter clearly said because she's a woman on Foxnews. She could have easily went any of the males if she truly hated McCain, but she went for Clinton. And if anyone knows Ms. Coulter---she is the ultimate Clinton basher.

I've read her books, when Treason came out, it was the same time as Hillary's was on the best seller list. Coulter was bashing left and right.

That's my first comment. Her sex was a factor for many women to join her camp. That means if she wasn'ta woman probably not that much hoopla. Plus, for that matter you know a lot of ladies from both parties would jump on her band wagon. Since the idea was already thrown out there by Ann Coulter, but also one more thing. A lot of Repub pundits, political speakers, and the media repub speakers were on shows they had one idea to say. We need Obama out. One in paticular on MSNBC said, if he was a Dem and he had to choose a Pres he would choose Obama. But sine he's a Repub, he wants the Dem party to choose Clinton so McCain could win.

People say Obama can't win without Clinton, utter nonsense. People wanted Hillary to win because she was believed to be the one that would be creamed.

As for the second reason, her name. The Clinton name was because of her husband who is still loved. No one gives a crap of what Bill did, most didn't anyway. The Dem party crowned him King and there he would sit. And we can see she stayed with him out of the name. No independent woman would stay with a man who abused his power, even if a young girl wanted it. Especially if he had a wife and a teenager daughter and he was so high profile, too risky. Her name and her husband would always stay. This man was claimed to be the "first Black" Pres, and Hispanics loved him and many others. Her name really was a push and no one can deny that, even if they would like to think that.

[still_one]

41. That was my point, which I didn't articulate very well. Senator Clinton

was suppossed to have had the nominee clinched without any serious resistence

That didn't happen

You are correct, 50% of the party did vote for her, but it never was suppossed to be this close, and all my point/opinion was that, the reason it was so close, at least as far as the registered Democratic voters are concerned, was less because of gender, and more because of other issues

[StevieM]

52. I doubt too many Americans who voted against her were thinking about Kyle/Lieberman or the bankrupcy

bill.

She had some pretty impressive moments, there were times when a lot of other politicians would have gone down. She kept hanging in and winning states. And contrary to the popular narrative, front-runners go down all the time.

I think Hillary was a better candidate then her campaign. She definitely hired the wrong people. They should have mastered the rules, especially pertaining to the caucuses, a lot better.

Steve

[Zachstar]

2. Hillary is done for president.. Period... Obama will win and the next chance is 2016

And by 2016 there will be a new crop of likely candidates INCLUDING her daughter who she ought to invest her political future in.


The Clinton era is OVER!

[StevieM]

51. We don't know who will win in 2008 and we don't know what will happen in 2012 or 2016

The entire political landscape will be different.

The Clintons aren't as discredited as you would like to believe. Her favorables amongst Democrats were at 75% in the last poll I saw and there is a long relationship with the AA community that will heal a lot more then you might like.

The Clinton era ended in 2001--even a Hillary presidency would be a different Clinton era.

It sickens me to hear my fellow Democrats trashing the Clinton Administration the way the GOP used to. One idiotic post even complained that Bill didn't resign so we could have President Gore.

Steve

[Zachstar]

62. And I 100 percent agree bill ought to have resigned..

In my view it was Bill that cost us 8 years of Bush. Suck up all you like but his "I did not have sex with that woman" words hung over the country as people went to the vote.

Had Bill resigned or not done those things gore would likely have won FL and perhaps other states and by now we would be partially on our way to recovery.

[Zachstar]

63. BTW In case you have not noticed there is an internet now.

Clinton's words are not going to go away. They will come back to haunt her when we goes for reelection much less office of president again.

Their era is over. Her daughter is the ONLY one with a chance.

[PassingFair]

68. Bill SHOULD have stepped down the minute the "blue dress" was discovered.

He dragged the whole party, AND his wife through the MUD.

I got SO sick of defending him.

At least Elliot Spitzer had the GRACE to step down and
save New York, and his FAMILY from further disgrace.

[hokies4ever]

3. Sebelius might just become Obama's V.P.

and perhaps a future President.

[and-justice-for-all]

4. I do not care about 2012 or 2016...

can we first get through November?

[vaberella]

6. I've been saying this one thing for a long time. But that's if Obama doesn't do a good job in 4

years. A lot of people think Obama is gonna fail massively in 2012 when they keep saying we should have Hillary look to in 2012. But if 2016 comes around Sebelius will make Hillary fail massively especially if she's Veep pick in 2008 and continues on in 2012, if Obama runs again.

[indimuse]

7. They already did a poll.. in S

HUGE FAIL!

[Larkspur]

11. I'm not impressed with Sebelius

Her Democratic response to Bush's SOTU was pathetic. She has no talent to inspired that I've seen.

Note: I despised Hillary because of her support for the war and that she supports outsourcing my job to India. I voted for Obama in CT's Feb. 5 primary because he was the only viable alternative to Hillary. I wasn't inspired by Obama to vote for him. He got my vote because I was an "Anybody but Hillary and Republican" voter.

[mythyc]

12. Pathetic is pushing it, but I didn't find it inspiring either

[GCP]

64. I agree about Sebelius - totally hopeless

Her response after the SOTU speech was horrendously bland. She should have knocked that opportunity out of the park.
You can be damn sure Hillary would have.

[cornermouse]

13. The nerve of that woman...

Clearly Hillary should have gotten out of the race before Super Tuesday like all the other candidates did and let Obama proceed in the primary without opposition. :sarcasm:

[TTUBatfan2008]

16. Actually that's the attitude that the Clinton campaign had...

for practically the entire campaign. How DARE anyone challenge the Clintons' throne. She was the entitlement candidate.

[cornermouse]

19. You're wrong.

Again.

[TTUBatfan2008]

21. No, I'm not.

That was the tone constantly conveyed by her campaign. What the hell else does, "It'll be over on February 5th" mean to you when she was saying that in December with a 20 point lead in national polls? She, her strategists, Bill, and everyone else in her campaign treated it like there was no way she could lose.

[Cha]

49. No he's right and you're wrong again,

cornermouse.."an enabler trapped in a cycle of denial".

[slinkerwink]

14. I think that's a bit of a large jump.

[cboy4]

15. More Hillary hate. It never ends.

:puke:

[cornermouse]

22. I don't think it ever will.

But if you look around you'll find they're starting to deny they ever said anything negative about Hillary. The whole thing is extremely bizarre.

[cboy4]

26. It sure is

:crazy:

[JohnnyLib2]

28. It's mind-boggling.

Some day, the protective shield she provides for misplaced anger may go, though. That will be interesting.

[MonkeyFunk]

17. what an idiotic notion

[JoFerret]

18. In your dreams

is the nightmare.

[Eurobabe]

23. My gut says

It will be someone senior wtih FP experience. Most likely a Gov., or Sen. but who?

[quaker bill]

24. Hillary has no fear

perhaps she should, but she doesn't. She will not be running in 2012, as Barack will be an incumbent and there will be no point in any of them running.

Democrats in general have not rewarded second place finishers with reconsideration and the nomination in a future contest. This last race is a perfect example, John Edwards did not improve his performance over 2004. People look for a winner, having lost once is very difficult if not impossible to overcome.

Hillary, like Ted Kennedy, will spend her career in the Senate, to the extent she desires to.

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. Why the hell are you talking about 2012?

That just sounds incredibly brainless.

Clinton won't have a hope in hell of getting nominated in 2012. Nor will any other Democrat than Barack Obama, who I fully expect to be running for his second term then. Talking about Clinton or Sebelius or anyone else at this point sounds stupidly defeatist, because it carries with it an implication that you actually expect that useless, worthless, tired, foolish old bastard McCain to win THIS year.

[Apollo11]

38. Why did it take 27 replies before this point was brought up?

Any discussion that starts out by assuming John McCain will win the White House goes against everything we believe in.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. doubt she is going to bother to run again nt

[MyNameGoesHere]

34. hey shouldn't you be helping us get Obama elected instead of this continuing

saga of why we hate HRC?

[hokies4ever]

46. Leave the poster alone

Nothing about hating Hillary here. Fact is that Kathleen Sebelius as V.P. would represent the biggest hurdle to Hillary becoming President.

[SeaLyons]

37. If Sebelius is put on Obama's ticket..

we will lose the GE. Trust me. He is not a stupid man, and Sebelius will NOT be his choice.

[dansolo]

66. I wouldn't go that far

I think that Obama will win with practically anyone (but not Hilllary). My feeling that Sebelius would have none to a slightly negative effect on his ticket, but not enough to make a difference. I don't find her particularly inspiring, and being elected governor of a red state is not the same as being a VP candidate. Voters are looking for different things for those two roles. I don't see voters envisioning her as potential Presidential material, which would work against her.

[LibraLiz1973]

39. Do you just run around willie nilly starting Sebelius threads?

Because in the last few months you have been relentless.

That isn't a dis, by the way.
Just a statement of fact.

[Marrah_G]

44. Are you done yet? We are well aware of your Hillary hatred

Welcome to ignore with the rest of the assholes.

[writes3000]

45. Why the need for the nasty anti-Hillary slant? Are you looking to anger pro-Clinton people?

Who are you trying to reach with this?

[Cha]

48. That's been my sense of part of what the

VP vetting should be.. are they presidential material for the future?

You don't want just anyone who happens to be from a state you'd like to carry.

[Catherine Vincent]

50. Who the heck is Selibus as opposed to Clinton?

:eyes:

[StevieM]

53. I think O'Malley will be a lot tougher. And amongst women I think Gregoire or Cantwell (from WA)

would also be tougher. Sebelius is a bit overrated IMO, but she might do OK in Iowa.

Steve

[Carrieyazel]

54. And what makes you assume this year wasn't Hillary's one and only chance?

If we don't get this done in the fall, the party will likely want to move on to a whole new, fresh slate of candidates. Hillary exposed herself as someone who blew a nomination that she could have won. Sebellius will likely be a candidate in 2012, but I doubt Hillary will even be in the race.

[piesRsquare]

55. I disagree.

I think Pelosi wants it in 2012. And she'd have a better shot.

I personally believe Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton have sort of an unspoken (and possibly limited to the subconscious) competition to be "The First Woman President". I see that as the primary reason behind Pelosi having backed Obama and pressured Clinton to drop out of the race early on. Looks like Sebelius is part of the catfight as well.

Hillary Clinton doesn't need anyone to feel sorry for her; she's tough. And she would make a great President.

[Forkboy]

56. Any woman who does become Prez will owe a lot of it to Hillary's run this year.

[girl_interrupted]

57. Sebelius is so boring, she can put you in a coma

Anyone see her response to the 2008 State of the Union? zzzzzzz Boring! Hillary has nothing to fear, if that's her competition. I'd love to see Barbara Boxer run someday too.

[Forkboy]

58. After Bush I'll take all the boring presidents I can get.

:)

[girl_interrupted]

60. well if you want to settle for boring

dull and perhaps not too bright...wait, that is bush! Never Mind. So many dynamic women out there, sorry, but Sebelius, isn't one of them. Yawn. Barbara Boxer would be unbeatable, I loved how she went after Condi Rice! It's too bad her collegues in the Senate didn't stand with her, but that's history. I'd love to see Boxer run for president!

[Forkboy]

61. Boxer would be fine by me.

[piesRsquare]

59. True, very true!

Was going to say something like that in my message (#55) but refrained.

The first woman elected President, if not Hillary herself, will have done it standing on Hillary's shoulders.

[Recursion]

65. How do you figure?

Maybe it's a generational thing; to me she's so "establishment" that there's nothing particularly bold in her run.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

67. thank god this cesspool of Clinton haters is shutting down

[goldcanyonaz]

69. tick tick tick, time is running out on your hate tick tick tick