DAILYKOS: President McCain just got elected, but that's okay

[FourScore]

This is great. This person really gets it...

President McCain just got elected, but that's okay
by JedReport
Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 11:06:39 AM PDT

I'm driving to work, here in Las Vegas. The traffic is bad, mostly on account of the sun, which has has just risen, nearly blinding me and my fellow road warriors. Between my sunglasses and squinting, I can barely make out the road, but I've been down it before, I know where I'm going.

I've got the radio turned on. President McCain is about to give his first press conference after his inauguration earlier in the week. They're saying he's planning on talking about his legislative initiative for the first hundred days, but that's okay.

I mentioned I'm driving; it's expensive. Gas prices are now over five bucks a gallon and going higher. McCain in his inauguration announced a bold new initiative to lower gas prices -- building a long-term base in Iraq, near the border with Iran. He's also fast-tracking his offshore drilling plan...

...The press conference comes on. The first question is about reports that one of the liberal members of the Supreme Court is in poor health and is about to retire. McCain wishes the justice well, and promises to meek a replacement that is in keeping with the constitutional traditions of the country.

I figure he means someone to the right of Roberts and Alito. Something like that.

But that's okay.

I didn't want McCain to win. In fact, I voted for Obama. But I didn't lift a finger to help Obama because he voted for something that I disagreed with him on. Maybe in part because of my apathy, John McCain won the November election.

But that's okay -- because I sure showed Barack Obama.

And now he's the one paying the price.

Anyway, back to the road. I can see it a little more clearly now, the sun is a little higher in the sky. I sure do hope that the traffic begins to move. It's expensive sitting here on the beltway, doing nothing.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/27/134658/482/153/542935

[John Q. Citizen]

1. Don't blame yourself. Barack forgot that people who favor FISA are voting McCain anyway.

It was his fault, not yours.

You didn't forget. You remembered.

Obama needs our help to remember, though. He's not perfect.

If you don't help him remember, then you should blame yourself.

[NorthCarolina]

3. Good post...makes a lot of sense

eom

[cbc5g]

4. Oversimplification

Obama siding with a few liberal democratic senators in Congress over FISA is just asking to be called too liberal and weak on terror. He's not a messiah, he's a politician, thats what people are when they run for office. Democrats caving under Pelosi left him in a tight spot.

[jgraz]

7. So now they're just calling him a weak-ass flip-flopper.

Sam Brownback predicts Obama's next cave-in will be on Iraq. When will we learn that people respect strength and laugh at capitulating losers?

[cbc5g]

11. They can't use the flip-flop meme because McCain has flipped more than any politician this decade

Obama siding with a few liberal Democratic senators reinforces the RW meme that he is too liberal for America.

[jgraz]

13. Just watch them.

These are the people who ran a deserter for President while attacking the military record of a war hero. You really think hypocrisy bothers them?


Responding to your edit: It's more likely that Obama giving away the Constitution to the most unpopular president in history reinforces the RW, LW and CW meme that the Democrats are weak little kittens with no core values.

[dionysus]

26. and if you give a fuck what brownback thinks.. welll.......

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[jgraz]

28. What? The whole point behind this capitulation is that we're so scared what the RWers think

If you don't care what they think, then what the hell is the point of fucking over the Constitution?

[dionysus]

30. well you apparently care what brownback thinks, not I...

[jgraz]

37. Is it too much to ask for you to stay on point for more than 1 post?

Or do you just want to call me a troll again?

[dionysus]

64. not a troll, just a spectacle. and i never expected it either...

i know you are pissed but i think you are far better than this.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

102. You are being downright nasty

maybe you should read the thread again -

[John Q. Citizen]

12. Better than siding with bush and McCain and being called too weak and afraid to stand up to the

bully Repos.

My guess, though, is he wants to use the law himself to spy on whoever he wants to without oversite.

I think that makes more sense than the "afraid of Repos" meme.

[cbc5g]

17. I don't think Obama wants the media message to be that he sides with a couple very liberal senators

over protecting America in the war on terror.

McCain's only lead is in the war on terror issue. Obama can't appear weak in the WOT

[jgraz]

19. The message now is that Obama is afraid of the Republicans.

Wow, you can almost taste the hope.

[cbc5g]

20. No, hes afraid of being looked at as weak in the WoT

and as siding with liberal democratic senators over moderates. America is a moderate nation, sadly.

[jgraz]

21. Here. Read this and maybe you'll start to understand

This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.

That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.

This Administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no short-cuts to protecting America, and that is why the fifth part of my strategy is doing the hard and patient work to secure a more resilient homeland.

Who was that brave soul? It was Barack Obama last year. THAT's how you stand up the the Republican fear machine. And THAT's how you fight for the people who got you the nomination.

Anyone too stupid to understand that isn't going to vote Democratic in the fall anyway.

[cbc5g]

31. And he has to compromise and not appear weak in the WOT,

Blame Congressional Dems for putting him in a tight spot.

[John Q. Citizen]

35. He just appears weak on the constitution to me. I bet to a lot of swing voters as well.

He appears to be afraid of the Repubicans calling him mean names as well.

Where have I seen this before?

[cbc5g]

62. Weak on fourth amendment- upsets some dems ...weak on terror - upsets the electorate

[John Q. Citizen]

67. Your argument is the electorate doesn't care about the constitution or the rule of law?

Where is your data?

[cbc5g]

68. 59,000,000 people that voted for George W. Bush's reelection is my data.

[John Q. Citizen]

75. Instead of the war hero with all the combat medals? You just don't get it do you?

Sorry, I didn't realize I was speaking to someone who believes what the MSM tells them to believe.

You obviously don't think that liberals have good enough ideas to win on the merits of the ideas.

You are convinced the only way a liberal can win is to pretend to be a conservative.


Didn't you catch what Truman said way back when? No, you didn't. They don't put history on TV.

[cbc5g]

76. Uh, thats the data that you wanted..

Whats there not to get? 59 million people voted for Bush after all he did.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. You said it. He's afraid. That's not good. Just watch, his numbers will suffer. You will blame the

Repos, instead of seeing that being afraid of the Repos is what always sinks Dems.

Siding with liberal Dems is what got Obamas current numbers to where they are.

Just watch. But this time don't just watch. Also learn. Because if we don't learn, we will just do this all over again, and again, like ground hog day.

[jgraz]

24. Bingo. Watch those poll numbers slide.

If he doesn't pull his shit together, it's going to be Dukakis all over again.

[John Q. Citizen]

27. And when they slide, the Repos will say it's because he's too liberal. And the suckers will tremble

and believe them.

[jgraz]

29. Yep. I've seen gerbils that learn faster than Democrats.

[cbc5g]

32. You two are great defeatists

He beat the Clinton machine that was up by 30% before the primaries...I think he knows what he is doing better than you two.

[jgraz]

34. Yeah, I'm not buying it.

I'll make a prediction: this FISA flip-flop is going to be an issue for the Repugs and it's going to hurt Obama.

[cbc5g]

36. The fact that he is not siding with Kucinich first Dems

to me it seems like a great way to win in the GE with people voting who see Kucinich as a far left loon.

[jgraz]

39. Wrong again. The 4th amendment is not a "far left loon" issue.

Sadly, too many DUers grew up during the Lee Atwater/Karl Rove era where they can't imagine winning an honest election. I'm becoming more and more convinced that this country is just fucked.

[cbc5g]

41. Well according to Congress, it is. And Congress represents the people

Better get on the phone.

[jgraz]

52. Wow. This country is completely fucked.

If this is what passes for citizenship these days, we have no hope whatsoever.

[cbc5g]

56. Get a life

[jgraz]

57. Hey, I have one. Would you like to borrow it some time?

Damn, I should know better than to log onto DU during Too-Stupid-To-Get-A-Date night.

[cbc5g]

59. I'm sorry you cant get a date. But really, you should take a deep breath

It's not the end of the world.

[John Q. Citizen]

40. Oh, he sided with us before he sided with McCain and bush. And you.

[cbc5g]

42. And many of the democrats in congress

[jgraz]

47. Wrong. At least have the decency to know what the fuck you're talking about.

The MAJORITY of the Democrats voted AGAINST the bill. Got that? Just like the last House FISA vote, just like the war funding, and just like every fucking capitulation engineered by Reid and Pelosi.

Don't believe me? Check the roll call like you should have done before coming here and spouting bullshit: http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2008&rollnumber=437


Say it again: THE MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS IN THE HOUSE VOTED AGAINST THE BILL. THE MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE VOTED TO SUSTAIN THE FILIBUSTER.

When will you figure out that the party leadership and a minority of collaborators are still doing Bush & Cheney's bidding?

[John Q. Citizen]

51. Maybe when the poster throws away their TV and starts reading for information.

I don't know.

[cbc5g]

53. By 23? Well maybe you should be Obama's political advisor

And get him Dukakis'd.

[jgraz]

55. And you don't even have the basic stones to admit a mistake

Class act all the way.

[dionysus]

60. i think you need to relax, spark a j or something man...

it's called realpolitik

[John Q. Citizen]

70. It's called stupid again. The same stupid that's lost us the White House repeatedly.

Truman saw it way back when.

You can't try to be more Repo than the Repos and expect to win.


This FISA flip flop by Obama was a huge mistake. He should have stuck by his original statements, showed some leadership, and win or lose he would have come out far ahead politically.

Instead he just neutralized his strongest and most active supporters, and showed the country that the Repos can bend him over and stick it to him.

Who wants to follow that?

[cbc5g]

71. .

[cbc5g]

72. What do you want me to do? Condemn Obama? How will that help anything?

[John Q. Citizen]

77. I want you to quit arguing in favor of being stupid. I like Obama, and worked very hard

for him.

I want to let him know that it's not too late to say he made a mistake, and that the FISA bill is just plain rotten as written, and that if the Repos won't work to fix it, then he's going to help filibuster it.

He needs to point out that a majority of the Dems voted against it, that a majority of the Dems voted against cloture, and go from there.

[Peacetrain]

113. That is exactly what they want you to do.. I have never

seen so much hope and bouncing up and down hoping that Obama falls on his face.. if you denounce Obama their day will be made.. maybe their year.. :crazy:

[dionysus]

74. i think, as political junkies like we are here ,that you are vastly overestimating the impact this

will have on the electorate in general.

don't get me wrong, i am not happy about this either. i have been disgusted with the dems during the bush years more times than i can count. but i truly believe it would be a mistake to make this the focus of the campaign, when we are kicking ass on the other issues.

were we to get into power and continue down this road, i will be right with you on the barricades, but i think this election might be our last chance. we badly need to win or we are all fucked.

i am not impressed with this either, but the hands have already been dealt. there is no re-deal. flaying our candidate in the middle of the GE is not productive man!

[John Q. Citizen]

83. I'm worried because this has spilt the base off so strongly. Just tonight on our local

NPR (Montana Public Radio) station, an Obama supporter gave the rotating editorial on how disappointed she is that Obama seems to be undoing everything he and we all worked so hard to accomplish.

She isn't some raving radical, just some American who thinks perhaps Obama could get some economic advisers who aren't all from Walmart, and perhaps he could work to defend the constitution instead of supporting the bush administration on this.

Obama ran on change, and now he seems to be running away from change, is how she put it.

Well she isn't alone in wondering WTF?

Over at the Obama website, a group of Obama supporters has formed a group called:
Senator Obama - Please, No Telecom Immunity and Get FISA Right

In a little over 24 hours they have over 1200 members, which makes them one of the larger (and certainly the fastest to that size ) groups on myobama.com . http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA

So this isn't just a DU thing.

PS I meant to reply to your post #74 with this.

[jgraz]

84. Obama is about to find out how many of us took his grass-roots message seriously.

I wonder if he'll be happy with the results...

[dionysus]

85. well i can't argue with that, i understand this

please do not think i am cheering what he did. we are not adversaries here.

i just think it is paramount to get him in office first. the alternative scares the shit out of me.

and remember, if we have both houses and the presidency, we can roll back anythingthe repukes did.

i really hope.

:hi:

[John Q. Citizen]

93. I don't think we are adversaries. I just think that this has been a strategic blunder on

Obamas part.

You know, I'm opposed to the death penalty under any circumstances and I could care less about Oabams comments. He has the right to his opinion just as I have mine.

I don't own a gun. I know lots of people who do. I did go to the Sportsmen for Obama event at the invitation of the local Missoula organizer and I shot clay pigeons with a shotgun. I didn't care one way or another about the SC decision or about Obama's comments.

But the change on FISA worried me. It made me go WTF? What was gained? and what was lost?

In fact, when some folks first brought it up, I thought they were jumping to conclusions and just trying to mess with Obama about it. But as I looked into it farther, I became more distressed, both for my civil rights and for the campaign.

I hope he takes a stand that's pro constitution, and pro rule of law. That would show he's strong.

And for the people that are worried about terrorists, it would be comforting.

[dionysus]

94. i'll guess we'll both be here in november to see it play out huh

;)

[truedelphi]

101. And it also suggests that he can't count

Only 32 per cent of all Amerians consider themselves Dems.

And a mere 28 per cent consider themselves Repugs.

The rest of the American populace consider themselves to be indies.

And he shouldn't be swinging to the far right - that is the weaker side of the numbers he needs.

[John Q. Citizen]

69. Some people can't admit they were wrong. Just the way it is.

[John Q. Citizen]

48. I think you are mistaken. If you add up all the votes in Congress you will see that a majority

of the Dems voted like Dems instead of like Republicans.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

103. YOU are the one who doesn't get it

I mean, defending a major flip-flop on this important issue is giving the republicans nothing but ammunition - Does principal mean anything anymore? Does right from wrong mean anything? WHAT was the right vote? That is the simple question. What vote would have been the moral and correct thing to do? He should not have gone back on his word. Stood his ground. But he caved in to pressure and is giving a free pass to criminal behavior. That is a fact not a judgement.

[Prophet 451]

100. He's ALREADY being called too liberal

The talking point of Obama having the "most liberal voting record in the Senate" has already started, weeks ago.

[Labors of Hercules]

45. So, 105 Democratic Congressmen are voting for McCain?

Every voter who "favors FISA" is definitely voting for him too?

Obama's must be a fucking retard then... I mean, even YOU know more than he does about how to win over Repuke and swing voters. :eyes:

[John Q. Citizen]

Yeah, a minority of Dems voted to invade Iraq too. That was great for our party, wasn't it?

[Labors of Hercules]

61. Nice comparison of apples to kumquats. nt.

[John Q. Citizen]

65. My point is the same as Truman's was. You can't beat Repos by trying to out Repo them, to

paraphrase.

The whole concept of taking bad arguments away from the opposition is a bad concept. I say let the Repos make as many bad arguments as they want. In the end they are just bad arguments.

When you attempt to neutralize bad arguments by changing your natural behavior based on bad arguments, you make bad arguments appear much better.

[Bluenorthwest]

95. A fucking retard?

How are things in the bully's corner at Jr High?

[hokies4ever]

63. I see that's your favorite talking point tonight in multiple threads

Your hitjob on Obama fell flat. Please try harder next time. :rofl:

[KittyWampus]

66. No, maybe you should wake the fuck up and take note of how the media operates.

[krkaufman]

104. Ok, use the FISA vote as your determining factor ....

What's the difference between McCain and Obama on FISA, again?

[sandnsea]

2. Third times a charm?

Is that how many losses it will take until people shut the fuck up and get in line?

:shrug:

[jgraz]

6. What exactly would you like us to shut up about? And what am I getting in line behind?

Everything? Just shut up and send Obama the message that his flip-flop on our civil liberties is just fine with us? Cuz if we do, I'm sure the Republicans aren't going to bring it up.

Oh wait, they're already rubbing his face in it -- using this vote to paint him as a weak, flip-flopping 2008 version of John Kerry (I was for civil liberties before I was against them). And you know why? Because he was a weak flip-flopper on this issue.


So I ask you: how many losses is it going to take before our candidates figure out that weakness and capitulation are not things that the American people respect?

[thewiseguy]

8. Obama's stance has more to do with the party unity

[jgraz]

10. Really? I don't see a lot of unity with 25 Senators voting to uphold the filibuster.

Bzzzzt. Try again. You'll figure out the right spin sooner or later.

In the meantime, the Repugs are laughing at you.

[thewiseguy]

14. There are 49 democratic senators, not 25

[jgraz]

15. Point?

[thewiseguy]

16. You have no idea what you are talking about

You keep coming here showing outrage and there is very little substance behind your comments.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[dionysus]

38. hmmm, hookay...

with the GOP on the ropes and us on the verge of being swept into power with both houses of congress and the presidency on iraq\economy\housing crisis\gas prices, let's shift the focus entirely to a topic most americans have never even heard of.

it seems you'd rather be in the "righteous minority", screaming from the rooftops, without ever having the power to change a goddamned thing.

funny how you turned on a dime, it really is. i am shocked actually.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

44. you are serving yourself up on a silver platter of foolishness...

better quit while you think you are ahead.

there is utopia, and there is the reality we have to deal with to get into office and make actual change.

i understand your principles, i share them. but i won't prematurely demand what we can't get without control of the government first.

to base the campaign on this is not a winning strategy.

with the presidency and both houses we can roll back anything the GOP does in its last dying gasp.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[dionysus]

50. what are you gonna do, kick my ass? egg my car? TP my house?

you turned so quickly my head is still spinning...
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[jgraz]

54. No, just put you on ignore. What a waste of energy you turned out to be.

[dionysus]

58. why? because i don't want to throw the election away?

because reality sucks and we have to deal with it?

seriously i never expected this from you.

:(

is it too much to ask for some patience this late in the game?

[jgraz]

82. No, because you want to avoid a debate with bullshit accusations

You want to talk about FISA, let's talk. You want to call me a concern troll, and I lump you in with the bitter dead-enders who have been mercifully tombstoned off this site.

[dionysus]

87. wow you're a smidge touchy.

what do you want to know about my opinion on FISA? you think i like what he did (and half of the dems)? no, i don't. i have been pissed off at the dems more times than i can count.

i think it would be a disasterous decision to make this the main point of the campaign.

i am upset about this too but we are so close to getting congress and the presidency. this is paramount. remember we on DU are more politically aware than 95% or so of the population. I don't see how switching focus to this helps us win.

we get into office and this shit continues, i will be right with you. until then, i think we are ok.

[cbc5g]

46. I give you the Kucinich medal for purity

Congrats.


Meanwhile, others are compromising with most of the Dems and Reps in Congress.

[jgraz]

80. There you go. Piss on one of the few real patriots in Congress

Thanks. That really completes the picture for me.

[jgraz]

98. Yes, and 25 voted for the filibuster. Which part of that don't you understand?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

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[dionysus]

78. i guess you can diss that candidate all you want as long as you add the

"but i'll still vote for him!" disclaimer...
:eyes:

[jgraz]

86. Actually you can dis the candidate with no disclaimer.

It's called "democracy". You might want to Google that one.

[dionysus]

88. unless you are on a message board that is moderated and has rules, ya know...

[jgraz]

89. And you've been promoted to admin... when?

If you think my criticisms of Obama violate the rules, by all means alert on them. My guess is you'll have less luck with those.

[dionysus]

90. i never said that. you're trying to storm the bastille before we even control it. that is my point.

you are clearly irate. what do you want us to do? make a news spectacle of it in the middle of the campaign?!?

[jgraz]

91. Hmm, I think a news spectacle is a great idea.

Now that Senator Feingold has given us some breathing room, we have some time to organize it. Thanks for the idea!

[dionysus]

92. although i agree with that in principle,i do not think that makes sense in general election politics

this is probably the only point where we really differ.

i don't expect joe 6 pack to think that this is more important the the war, economy, health care or gas prices.

i have nothing against you man, i think our methods just differ.

:hi:

[jgraz]

97. We're Democrats. What do we know about General Election politics?

:P

[dionysus]

99. um, yea um...... we know stuff... and stuff.. important things...

:)

[BzaDem]

105. I don't think there's much hope.

We should be focused on McCain. The fact that you even have to argue that to anyone just emphasizes why we keep losing elections. We can never unite around an imperfect candidate in a representative democracy and just support him. Especially when the decision is inconsequential. Especially when we are talking about somebody's position that won't change the outcome of a Senate vote. In fact, the more inconsequential it is, the more people insist on bashing the Democratic nominee instead of the Republican nominee.

If we continue on this path (and the arguments in this thread indicate we are), McCain may very well win. We will have one more right wing justice on the Supreme Court. That justice will be the 5th vote to uphold Bush's first interpretation of the 4th amendment, where he could unilaterally institute warrantless wiretaping without any Congressional authorization. And then FISA will become moot. But unfortunately, some people just can't see the big picture.

I hope you have more hope than I do.

[jgraz]

9. Here: Cenk Uygar of The Young Turks says it better than I can

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=152110&mesg_id=152110

[unblock]

22. i do agree with kos here, but, since it's so much fun, here's my counter-argument

president mccain just got elected, but that's okay.

i forgave obama for failing to stand up to that fisa bill nonsense back in june and worked hard for him through right up through election day. i donated all i could, registered voters, put signs in my lawn, got everyone i knew to contribute and volunteer, drove voters to the polls, and even travelled to swing states and helped organize events for obama.

but the obama campaign was plagued by scandal after scandal. at first i thought it was just the typical republican muckraking, and certainly some of the "scandals" were indeed tawdry at best. but obama seemed to have difficulty just denying them. eventually it became apparent that the republican attacks, while exaggerated, always had at least an element of truth behind them.

damn those republican opposition researchers sure knew how to dig up the dirt! how did could they have found that woman obama flirts with a little too much? sure, they couldn't prove an actual affair, but that was quite a message obama left on her machine. i was disappointed, obama should know better than to leave that kind of message, but, well, they had a recording of obama's voice on the telephone, so he must have known his message could turn up later.

and then there was that email he sent. it certainly looked like he meant it for his campaign manager's eyes only, but for some reason he must have cc'd someone in mccain's campaign without realizing it, because they had the email. it revealed his entire strategy and the republicans had an effective counter for everything obama did throughout the campaign.


but that's okay. we live and learn. next time we'll run a genius, charismatic, scandal-free saint from birth, and he'll stand a reasonable chance against the next idiotic and incompetent puppet the republicans put up.

but that's okay. it wouldn't be right for democrats to have an advantage, and we have no special right to the white house.

[dionysus]

79. i like that. good writing

:toast:

damn obama and his floozies!!! ;)

[unblock]

81. thanks :)

:hi:

[depakid]

73. Sorry, but if the candidate and the campaign panders repeatedly to the right and alienate their base

THAT'S THEIR OWN FAULT for failing to learn the lessons of many elections past.

Attempting to shift the blame to others for such failures is quite frankly, both ineffective and pathetic.

It's EXACTLY the sort of condescending BULLSHIT that's made people reluctant to get involved (or to turn out vote for Democratic candidates) over the last decade- and it won't help the cause any more today than it did in 2000 or 2004.

[BzaDem]

106. This kind of post is exactly what the article is talking about.

You want to BLAME someone. BLAME Obama. If Obama loses, it is HIS fault, HE should be the one BLAMED, and as long as he is PUNISHED, everything is fine.

McCain will be president, appoint right wing justices to the Supreme Court, continue the war, and hurt the people with right wing economic policies.

But as long as Obama can be BLAMED, that's OK.

[depakid]

107. Hey, I'm not blaming anyone- just looking at how things work IN REAL LIFE

Basically, it's Poly Sci 101.

And I'll tell you something else: I personally made statements just like this in several elections past as others in the trenches did when we were much younger- and guess what? they drew the same sorts of responses (and actions).

Inspiration come from the candidates, their actions and examples motivate folks to go out and work their butts off- and as we can see from history, it's a whole lot easier to get people going if they have someone and a higher set of principles to vote FOR- than by trying to hit them with all the negative consequences of what will happen if they aren't actively involved in promoting the lesser of two evils.

[BzaDem]

108. Yes, it is Poly Sci 101.

Poly Sci 101 says that the general election is going to be decided in the middle, by the 20% or so that are independent/undecided. Poly Sci 101 says that Obama's base is intelligent enough to support and work for Obama even when he doesn't agree with them on every issue (even every important issue). Poly Sci 101 says that the enthusiasm difference this one position makes will not affect a great many votes in the end. You are overestimating the effect of voter enthusiasm. (Right now, polls indicate that Obama's voters are 40 points more enthusiastic than McCain's voters, yet McCain is still running close to Obama in many of these same polls). While enthusiasm can indirectly affect votes, its effect is not nearly as pronounced as efforts to try to win undecided voters.

Let's face it. You are not really that pissed because Obama's plan will cause a huge drop in enthusiasm, lowering his chances of winning (even if you believe it). You are pissed because Obama has lowered YOUR enthusiasm. You wanted Obama to agree with you on this issue (much like we want our favorite candidate to win in the primary), and when he doesn't, you are not happy. But poly sci 101 says Obama needs to go to the middle on some issues, even if that makes you unhappy.

[depakid]

110. That's the conventional mainstream media "wisdom" not poly sci 101

and that sort of erroneus thinking has already cost the democrats EVERY election since 1994.

Except of course the election of 2006 -where that sort of thinking was REJECTED in favor of traditional Democratic values )albeit only for a short time- once the Dems went back to their old "placate the middle by eneabling and legitimizing the far right, their public approval plummeted below Bushs!).

Another historical deal for you: The youth vote on which so much depends is traitionally VERY fickle and in many elections simply does not turn out in anywhere near the numbers that the optimists predict. If Obama starts looking to them like just another politician, you just watch- that turnout will fall off- with potentially disastrous consequences/

Like so many, you've bought into foolish notions about "moving to the middle" that have been disproven time and time again. You think Republican Congress EVER appealed to the middle! LOL.

They had a 12 year run of the most extreme political views and vile, hateful and polarizing rhetoric. The only lost when Dems stood up drew a stark contrast and fought back- rather than play Republican lite.

You think Bush appealed to the middle in 2004? Please- but Kerry, he certainly did- and what was the result?

Although this is going to be a tough battle, it's one that circumstances dictate that he should win. With that in mid, it's painful to watch him look as though he's going to blow it, by listening to the same tired old consultants who've prove to be losers so many times before.

[BzaDem]

112. Congressional elections are different than Presidential elections.

After 1994, we (for the most part, not always) gained in congressional elections. This simply peaked in 2006. And it peaked in 2006 not because we moved far to the left, to draw contrasts, but because a toxic political environment for the Republican party and brand (primarily due to the war going worse and ethics issues). This is the same reason why the current Congressional approval rating is lower than Bush's approval rating, while simultaneously the Congressional generic polling shows Democrats 15 points ahead of Republicans. Republicans have a brand problem.

The electoral college math, state demographics, and issue polling require that on some issues, we move to the middle to win. You cite examples where we moved to the middle and lost, but that doesn't mean that we should then just try the opposite for the opposite's sake. If you look at every presidential election where we lose, you will find that each one was unique, and in each one, Republicans created and exploited personal characteristics that often had nothing to do with legislative issues. Note that Bill Clinton moved more to the middle than Gore or Kerry, and he was the only Democratic presidential candidate who won since 76 (and exit polls confirmed that he would have won the popular vote even if Perot wasn't in the race).

We shouldn't move to the left just because in some elections where we move to the middle, we lose (while others we win). The "drawing contrasts" theory sounds great in theory, but I have yet to see convincing evidence to back it up.

[Bluenorthwest]

96. Obama needs to remain true to himself

What got him the nomination was not triagulation and trying to appease the right wing. If he starts thinking about winning instead of principles, he will shoot himself and us all in the foot. I would say Hillary just taught a great lesson by example in her Primary. Imagine if the Hllary we saw today had been on the trail...
And funny to me that I never hear Republican candidates talking about how they have to move left to win Democratic voters. They never say such crap. And there are far more of us these days than there are of them. So why is it that the votes he needs so badly are Republicans?

But I've never had a nominee I really liked. So I don't expect to. That does not mean I don't work for and promote the nominee everytime. It is harder for many this time because they took off the skeptic specs for a while, and they really thought Obama was a towering Progressive and Hillary a conservative war monger, in spit of the mirror votes they cast, and in spit of the several tips Obama dropped as he ran.

[TheKentuckian]

109. We nominate someone every four years

and the usually lose.

Democrats are to focused on being the opposition.

I think it is we who forget the lessons of the past. A Kucinich style democrat has no chance in hell of winning the GE.
Too many Democrats believe that if they cannot at minimum get a Kucinch style candidate, then screw it. I'm staying home, I'm voting for Nader, or even if I'm going to vote for a Republican then I may as well do the real thing.

Rinse and repeat.

[LVjinx]

111. Obama is already considered weak on defense issues, that's why we need a VP like Clark or Webb

Capitulating on this issue doesn't make him seem stronger, it makes him seem weaker. What he needs is a VP to shore up his defense credentials, what he's done hurts him far more than it helps him.