Does anyone seriously think that Obama or anyone running for President could have done differently?

[TheWraith]

Think about this for two minutes before you start shouting.

If the Democratic candidate votes against FISA, and then so much as a wet firecracker goes off anywhere in the world, that's it. It's 24/7 "We could have stopped it but Obama wouldn't let us wiretap terrorists!" And the media is stupid enough to go along with that. And then it's pretty much all over. Now, if it comes down to insuring that we're not going to get kicked in the teeth, at the expense of halting a few lawsuits, I can live with that. If you can't, try thinking about how much respect President McCain will have for civil liberties, if he can actually figure out what this "internet" thing is.

And for everybody who's angrily asserting that they should have defeated the entire bill, I suggest that you read about what it actually does. Remember, this bill was originally drafted by OUR side, starting with--and written by--John Conyers. The whole point was to extend the update to the original FISAct that requires warrants for domestic eavesdropping, and to increase oversight. If you want to disagree with it, take it to the guys who actually wrote the bill, Conyers and Reyes. No, it may not be the best deal, but it's a hell of a lot better than "they can spy on anything they like, without ever needing a warrant," which was the deal BEFORE this passed.

To everybody who's complaining that Obama is "Republican lite" or whatever the new codeword is for "I'm more liberal than you are!", I suggest that you examine the facts, examine the positions, and get a sense of perspective. Unless you seriously think that Obama passed over a high paying law firm job to be a civil rights lawyer because he was a self-serving politician, you'll recognize that yes, he really is a liberal.

Remember that we here represent the leftest of the left, and our opinions aren't diluted by any sense of responsibility to consituents other than ourselves. Senator Obama doesn't have that luxury--his decisions have consequences, both for the campaign and for the world, that require him to err on the side of caution.

[Zachstar]

1. Be an apologist all you want. It changes nothing. We were served.

[Alexander]

2. Give him credit, he voted for the Dodd Amendment.

That would have stripped immunity from the bill.

[Zachstar]

7. No credit when he turned around and voted for the bill like a coward.

Is there any more evidence needed that Obama has been bought? Where is the courage we saw long ago.

WHO THE FUCK IS THIS PERSON THAT CALLS HIMSELF OBAMA?

[still_one]

10. and what are you going to do in November? /nt

[Zachstar]

13. So far McCain still is a dirty liar and a fuck so Obama still gets the vote for now.

[still_one]

19. and for better or worse that is the way it is. If Democrats win, we have at least a chance

that we can get this turned around, but we have to get in first

8 years have gone by, and we all know how many Democrats capitulated to the bush administration

Hopefully we will win the Congress and the Executive Branch

Then we will know if it is hopeless or not, because there will be no excuses

[high density]

14. He has the brains to do what he needs to do to get elected

If you think he's somehow a different person since the primary season ended then you are wrong.

[Life Long Dem]

24. At least he voted.

No show for Hillary Clinton. :hide:

:rofl:

[TheWraith]

27. Huh?

She did vote.

[Life Long Dem]

32. I was going on the

Feb 12th vote and her no show vote - to strike immunity from service providers. And yesterday she voted on the fisa stay bill.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00015

[Eric J in MN]

3. Since the bill would have passed without his vote,

...it would have been difficult to blame his vote on a terrorist attack.

[vaberella]

9. No it wouldn't have from the Fox especially since that's been his

achilles heel since this run for office. And the way the other MSM idiots are running they would jump on the same band wagon and would eventually end his candidacy in November.

No one is naive to the fact something could happen in the fall if McCain keeps screwing up the way he has, the Repubs in power will probably use some initiative in this nation.

If Obama didn't vote he'd appear weak especially if shit hits the fan. And no matter what, people may be oblivious to the FISA and what's behind it (even those people who claim to be progressives (speaking of the anti-FISA loud mouth bunch)), if something goes down in our nation everyone will know especially if it's an international threat. We need to have a base in order to win this.

However, don't think that I say all this because I believe Obama was wrong and this was a tactic. Far from it, I do think a provision needs to be put in place after what Bush did, and although I don't like the FISA much it does restore a lot of our civil liberties which popular beleif disagrees with. So in the end this was for the best.


I'm still however holding Obama to task to eliminate the "immunity" factor when he becomes President.

[TheWraith]

17. Yeah, because Fox News is always sure to get the nuance right.

And so do the Republican attack ads.

And so does the random idiocy around every watercooler in America.

Think for ten seconds about what you're saying.

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. Sure, he could have voted no.

They'd have come up with a better bill by November & he could have taken the glory. Instead, this.

[vaberella]

16. Huh? That's crap and you know it!!

Bush was going to veto the FISA if the immunity wasn't in the clause. That means his crap still goes on. What makes you think even if there is a fantastic bill from our prospective it's going to pass?!

Actually, anyone with a brain would know if we (as progressives and supporters of democracy) support something most likely the Repubs (who PWN the House) will not let it pass. And if it did by some miracle pass, Bush would veto it.

So where are you getting this idea? You also know that there won't be peace and flowers by November. Shit can go down somehwere and then if he voted "no" Obama would be blacklisted and we're back to what happened to Kerry in the election. Pwned in primaries but was annihilated during election.

Let's look at this realistically.

[Labors of Hercules]

5. A sole voice of reason in a sea of irrational diatribes.

logic hath no place in such an EMOTIONAL argument. Don't you know that??? :sarcasm:

[DevonRex]

6. Of course he had to vote for it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is

out in la-la land.

[BlueStater]

11. What bullcrap.

He did not have to vote for it. And that imbecile McCain didn't even vote at all.

[vaberella]

21. so you're saying he shouldn't have voted at all...I could see MSM now...

They're ragging on him because of his kids not getting "hard hitting questions", and you would expect him not to vote? Hah!

[BlueStater]

25. I think he should have done the right thing and voted against it n/t

[Astrad]

8. The trouble with normal is it always gets worse.

Fearmongering will only increase because of moves like this. Eventually someone's got to stand up and say "enough is enough, I'd rather have my freedom and put up with a terrorist attack." (Actually I saw Jesse Ventura say that a few months back.)

[high density]

12. I think some people here just love being pissed off

I guess a lot of them slept right through the 2004 election season. It's nice to have a candidate on our side that can play the media game successfully, even when the cards are stacked against him in every way possible. If he has to piss off a few purity fools on a message board to get elected then that's fine by me.

[gateley]

15. Don't play politics on an issue this important.

I don't think most of those who voted against will be viewed as weak. They stood up for what is right, can't get much stronger than that.

[bowens43]

18. Yes, he could have done differently and should have done differently.

There is no gray area here. The Constitution is very clear on this subject. No further legislation was ever needed.

[TheWraith]

20. Obviously John Conyers felt differently when he wrote the bill.

I have yet to get anyone who's not already rational to acknowledge the fact that this measure was pushed by OUR SIDE.

[vaberella]

22. Tell me about it. I don't understand these people.

[TheWraith]

26. Well, tell me this: what do you object to about the bill?

Answer me that. I suspect most of the people complaining don't really know what it did.

[saracat]

23. Yes. If you can't be trusted now, when can you be? Sorry . It was a wrong vote by ANY standards.

[Seabiscuit]

28. Simple answer: YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a dumb question.

[styersc]

29. Doing the right thing would have taken the courage of a leader.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[slipslidingaway]

33. I can just see the ads, Obama finally agrees with the Bush

wiretapping program...Bush must have been correct.

[quakerboy]

30. to answer the question: Yes.

[TexasObserver]

31. Agreed. Obama has to run to the center, even if he'd prefer otherwise.

He can do these issues more good as president than he can as one senator voting a bill that will pass with or without him.