Question: concering Fisa

[butterfly77]

if Obama would have voted the opposite way would if have mattered,would the bill have passed or not passed,from what I can see is that he did it so as not to have the Repugs saying he was soft on terrorism.

So I really don't see why this is such a big deal.Was his vote going to make it pass or not.Who were the others who voted for it and are they taking heat for it too.Tell me what is the difference.The only reason I can see why some are making a big deal is because he is the nominee..

[niyad]

1. it doesn't matter whether it would have passed without his vote or not. he voted to

kill our fourth amendment rights, period.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

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[woolldog]

2. No.

The bill would still have passed.

[NYC_SKP]

3. A vote against it would only have been symbolic.

There wasn't enough support to block it.

He did the right thing, but others feel he should have filibustered and given the right more ammunition to call him weak.

Just as Iran is testing missiles.

They miss the big picture, IMO.

[orleans]

7. yes, here's me missing the big picture and hoping he would have stood

ON PRINCIPLE!

how stupid is that?

[NYC_SKP]

10. I agree, but winning matters...

...a lot.

I'm disappointed too.

[orleans]

20. do people think that anyone who was gonna vote AGAINST obama

is now gonna vote for him because he voted for fisa?

does everyone really think that will happen?

would you vote for mccramps if he voted against fisa? i sure as fuck wouldn't let that change my mind.

[NYC_SKP]

25. I think he supported a part of the legislation, knew that voting no would only...

...be symbolic and fodder for the 527s, and hoped that he wouldn't lose support among his core constituency, and hoped he might garner support from some undecideds, and calculated that he could address the issues of greatest concern in RISA and Patriot Act as president with the support of congress.

It's a strategy with many facets.

Attempts to reduce it to just principles or any single aspect doesn't do justice to the realities of making complex decisions.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. And those principles would stand him in good stead

serving in congress under President McCain.

[orleans]

22. see link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6482369&mesg_id=6482910

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. You've got it bass ackward.

There are millions out there who are wavering in the center - and repeated hits on Obama for not supporting the fight on terror would convince them to go with McCain.

We are not going to convince the hardcore of the other side, any more than they will convince progressives - the fight now is two-fold: to draw the center into the Democratic tend, and to prevent the center from being pulled into the Republican tent. That requires two strategies: to get our message out; and to prevent them from getting their message out.

It was an unfortunate, but necessary, strategic move. Nothing more.

[Saturday]

4. He said he would filibuster it....

and he did the opposite. Credibility problem IMO.

[Raine1967]

5. No, THIS is a credibility problem...

http://www.alternet.org/election08/90956/?page=1

61 Flip flops and counting.

[butterfly77]

11. I didn't click the link but...

are people really that simple minded that they play into the rightwing talking point about flip flops. They are using the same tactics they used against Kerry and I didn't see how they got away with it at that time.

With all of the evidence that showed that bush was a Liar,is this going to be a contest of who did the most flip-flops which is the media and the republicons talking point..

[DrDan]

6. of course it matters

he is now on record as not supporting our constitutional rights

[butterfly77]

9. No he's not ...

so you prefer that the Republicons spend the rest of the campaign with the talking point that he is soft on terrorists...

[DrDan]

12. no - I prefer our party remembers him as one that values

the freedoms and liberties of the constitution.

[Popol Vuh]

16. What? Sorry, but, are you on Crack or something?

Are you saying his Yes vote on FISA was a No vote? Talk about your Orwellian double-speak.

He voted, and, his vote is a record of not supporting our constitutional rights. And BTW, before you draw a wrong conclusion, I am not a Clinton supporter. All my posts concerning Obama vs Hillary express my none support for Hillary and support for Obama. Now with this FISA vote and what it does to our Bill of Rights, I have to reevaluate my opinions about the candidate who proclaims "Change" but reminds me of the lyrics "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

[butterfly77]

17. Do you really expect me to believe that..

he will be the same as bush.I think you are the one who is smoking crack. I could see all of this so called outrage about the constitution if it his vote would have mattered to change the outcome, but somehow I don't think it really matters you know it doesn't make any sense. Are you angry at the others who voted for it..

[Popol Vuh]

21. His vote doesn't matter?

Are you seriously trying to inject that since enough others voted for it his vote to rape a portion of our Bill of Rights doesn't matter? Well I wonder what a jury would think if a rapist testified his participation in a gang rape doesn't matter since the rape victim would have been raped anyway. See how ridiculous that sounds?

:eyes:

[butterfly77]

24. In reality it doesn't matter..

just as your analogy doesn't. If he voted for it he doesn't change anything if he didn't he wouldn't have changed anything. Really,he should have not voted on it at all but, then you would have been angry because he didn't vote on it, so he can't win either way..

[Popol Vuh]

26. Now you're being presumptuous

Incorrectly I might add. What he should of done is vote YES for the constitution by voting NO on this bill. If he wouldn't have voted, that would have been good enough.

And yes it DOES matter because he voted for it. He voted to rape one of the amendments in our Bill of Rights and the analogy I gave is spot on. You're acting no better than the Repubs when Bush suspended habeas corpus. What a shame what we've become; willing to sell-out our founding principles to support those who crap on them. Its like our country suffers from Stockholm syndrome.

[butterfly77]

29. If he would have voted no...

would the outcome be any different?

[Popol Vuh]

33. Still Trying To Inject That Dead Strawman?

I repeat. I wonder what a jury would think if a rapist testified his participation in a gang rape doesn't matter since the rape victim was being raped anyway. See how ridiculous that sounds?

n/t

[butterfly77]

31. I wish there would have been this much outrage...

and protest when bush was running for he presidency and after he stole the election. I have never seen this much so called outrage for the nominee.. What will be his next test...

[Popol Vuh]

35. There Was As I Remember

But maybe from your neck of the woods there wasn't. Nice obfuscation attempt, but, this strawman doesn't work either.

n/t

[TZ]

15. And thats all well and good

If he had..He could have been idealistic all the way to a landslide loss for him as the right painted him as soft on security!
I don't care if my candidate loses, as long as he stands for everything I beleive in and ignores the mainstream opinion!:eyes:

[DrDan]

18. so you are going to allow the right to set the agenda

hmmmmmm

[BlueStater]

34. If Obama loses it will be because he didn't stand on principle.

Not because of the hypothetical nonsense you spout.

[Egnever]

13. No it would not have effected the outcome

in fact the vote pretty much showed that it was filibuster proof. Having said that I don't think he did it out of pure political expediency. The new bill calls for an investigation of the last 7 years by the IG. Something I think in the end will bear a lot of fruit.

This bill wasn't perfect by any means but it also wasn't the end of the fourth amendment as many would have you believe.

[polichick]

19. It only matters if it's important for a presidential candidate to defend the Constitution.

[butterfly77]

23. He will when he wins...

which some don't seem to want to happen.

[polichick]

36. Or maybe they think he has less of a chance of winning if he sells out.

[butterfly77]

39. Since you are on this board protesting everyday...

tell us what you want him to do,it seems that you are only talking just to hear your self talk.

[polichick]

41. Actually, I haven't been here in a few days - the thought police make it too boring...

Apparently you're here only to listen to yourself cheer.

[JuniperLea]

28. You're right about the numbers... all the more reason for him to have kept his integrity!!! eom

[BlueStater]

32. What integrity? n/t

[JuniperLea]

37. Ugh... I'm seeing it wane...

I was hoping for real change... I'm seeing the same old shit.

[BlueStater]

30. So he should have voted for it just because everyone else did.

Wow, that makes it all okay! :sarcasm:

Every senator who voted for this piece of shit is a disgrace and Obama, who became the nominee on a promise of change, is the biggest disgrace of them all.

[butterfly77]

38. Sorry obama is not disgraceful...

Obama is very Graceful being that he has to live up to some unbelievable standards that I have never seen any candidate have to go through before. Mr.Obama is very graceful seeing that he has made his way through so much bullshit, thrown at him by so called Democrats.

[BlueStater]

40. Yes. Poor Obama! Boo hoo!

What unbelievably unreasonable assholes we are expecting him to not sell out the Constitution just so he could (in his mind) score a few political points. Forgive us, Barack!

[butterfly77]

42. How in the hell did he sell out the constitution..

when his vote wouldn't have changed the outcome. Its not about Obama its about you and the drama...Oh yeah we know,you are concerned about his integrity also...GoBama :dem: :dem: :dem:

[BlueStater]

43. BECAUSE HE VOTED FOR IT!

Geez!

[polichick]

44. Don't bother with insignificant stuff like that - just cheer and wave your pom-poms!