someone who is personally opposed to abortion can still be pro-choice

[onenote]

An number of posts around here are labelling Kaine as "anti-choice" which is simply untrue, unless of course the "pro choice" position is that someone shouldn't actually have a choice NOT to have an abortion.

Let's review: Kaine is personally opposed to abortion. But he supports Roe v. Wade and the right of a woman to choose to have an abortion or not. He has stated that even if Roe was overturned, he'd veto a bill banning abortion if it came to him as governor.

I am pro-choice. Which means that I respect the decision of those that choose to terminate a pregnancy, and I also respect the decision of those that choose not to.

Someone is anti-choice if they want to take away a woman's right to choose. Tim Kaine is not anti-choice.

[NYC_SKP]

1. Thank you for pointing that out.

That important point was lost in the craziness in the Kaine threads yesterday.

:hi:

[rox63]

2. Both of my Catholic Senators are personally opposed to abortion

But they have some of the strongest records in the Senate for upholding a woman's right to choose.

[Marrah_G]

3. It is his membership in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats_For_Life_of_America that makes some of us a little uneasy.

Please do not mistake concerns about a possible VPs stance on issues as being anti-obama. If he is picked by Obama we will have no choice but to accept it. Until then, people have a right and obligation to discuss these things.

[KittyWampus]

5. Discuss what? The fact he's personally not keen on abortion but POLITICALLY ACCEPTS IT?

that is the relevant fact.

The rest is bullshit provided by DU'ers who desperately don't want Obama to win and/or have an ax to grind.

[Marrah_G]

10. Wow- There is no having a conversation with you then

There is nothing left to discuss and that IS a crying shame.

GOBAMA!

That's all that needs to be said, right? Anything else is just people out to destroy Obama.

GoBama!

[LisaM]

36. I would vastly prefer someone not personally opposed to abortion

This is absolutely a top issue with me. I suspect that it is NOT a top issue with many here who are extolling the virtues of Governor Kaine. It's an issue where women's rights have been eroded for years. He himself must obviously be making a personal (and political) compromise to support Roe v. Wade.

I am likewise hearing a little bit of alarm from our dear gay brothers and sisters here regarding his personal opinions on gay marriage and adoption.

I don't think straight people can fully understand gay peoples' worries about the nuanced stances politicians take on gay issues, and I likewise don't think men can fully understand women's worries about nuanced stances on abortion. I trust the opinions of the gay people I know on gay issues, and I think that on this issue, men need to trust how women voters feel.

[onenote]

6. still spreading that unsubstantiated bullshit I see

Can you point to anything in that wiki entry that even says he's a member? No. There is a statement that he's a member in the wiki listing for Kaine himself -- with the telltale notation: "citation needed".

In other words, there is absolutely no evidence that he's a member of that organization beyond a statement in Wikipedia for which no citation is given. If I go onto Wikipedia and amend it so that it states that Hillary Clinton is a member of that organization, will you believe it?

The facts are that Kaine's public statements establish that while he is personally opposed to abortion for religious reasons, he respects and defends the right of a woman to choose and would veto legislation banning abortion even if Roe was overturned.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onenote]

18. post 10: I missed the part that proves kaine's a member of Dems for Life

Must be hidden in the white spaces.

I get it. YOu don't like to be called out when you post unsubstantiated claims that are based on nothing more than wikipedia and that are contradicted by Kaine's own stated views (which are that he supports a woman's right to choose).

I have a suggestion for you: if you don't like being called out for posting unsubstantiated claims about a Democratic governor, stop doing it.

[Buzz Clik]

14. It's interesting that his membership is repeated and not verified.

His membership in it, however, would make me a tad squirmy.

[ieoeja]

26. While you appear wrong about him being a member....

"I will reduce abortion in Virginia by enforcing current Virginia restrictions, passing an enforceable ban on partial-birth abortion, ensuring women's access to health care (including legal contraception), and promoting abstinence-focused education and adoption. We should reduce abortion in this manner, rather than by criminalizing women and doctors.

"Source: Campaign website www.kaine2005.org, 'Issues' Nov 8, 2005"

http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Tim_Kaine_Abortion.htm


He does clearly side with those who are nibbling away at our rights in their attempt to remove them altogether.

Human rights should never be on the table for compromise.

[onenote]

43. And here's Hillary Clinton on those same issues:

Hillary supporting "abstence focused education"

http://clinton.senate.gov/~clinton/speeches/2005125A05.html

Hillary supporting a ban on "partial birth abortion"

"I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected."
Source: Senate debate in Manhattan Oct 8, 2000

Hillary supporing adoption as a means of reducing abortion:

"I think abortion should remain legal, but it needs to be safe and rare. And I have spent many years now, as a private citizen, as first lady, and now as senator, trying to make it rare, trying to create the conditions where women had other choices. I have supported adoption, foster care. I helped to create the campaign against teenage pregnancy, which fulfilled our original goal 10 years ago of reducing teenage pregnancies by about a third. And I am committed to do even more."

Source: 2008 Democratic Compassion Forum at Messiah College Apr 13, 2008


According to the website you linked, Kaine's positions are almost indistinguishable. He wants to reduce the number of abortions by promoting abstinence education and adoption (same as Hillary); he supports a ban on late term abortions if it "protects the life and health of the mother"

He believes that these are the correct ways to reduce abortion, not criminalizing women and doctors. What is bad about that position?

[ieoeja]

46. One of the many reasons I was anti-Hillary was her weak stance on abortion.

Put her in front of an audience of liberal women, and she will go on at length about protecting Roe-v-Wade. Put her in front of another audience, and she will go on at length about putting limits on abortion.

So I oppose Kaine for at least one of the same reasons I opposed Hillary.

[onenote]

47. and yet you support Obama, who has identical positions on these issues to Kaine and Hillary

Can you explain?

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Abortion.htm

[Whisp]

35. I wouldn't believe anything wiki, especially in these times.

lieing is a commandment for McCain's camp, so it isn't too much of a stretch t think that he has 'people' working on wiki.

[geiger]

4. yep. would not be a personal choice, but I can't decide that for someone else.

[GreenPartyVoter]

40. Same here.

[Buzz Clik]

7. Absolutely true.

Pro-choice means supporting the right to choose -- even if that means your personal decision would be NEVER have an abortion.

[ellacott]

8. Bill Clinton had the same position when he first ran for President

I don't remember being upset about it.

[jobycom]

24. Clinton's opinion was very different than Kaine's.

Bill Clinton took the road a lot of politicians, including Kerry, take. He said he was personally against abortion but that he believed that a woman's right to choose should be inviolable, and he stuck to that. Kaine has advocated legislation against late-term abortion, and belongs to an organization that believes abortions should be restricted. Those are irreconcilable opinions.

[ellacott]

29. There is some dispute over whether he actually belongs to that organization

and late term abortions were not a political issue when Clinton ran. You will find many Dems who support legislation against late term abortions.

[jobycom]

31. It was an issue in 1996, when Clinton vetoed a ban on late-term abortions.

He vetoed two more, at least, before he left office.

[onenote]

44. again, there is no proof he belongs to Dems for Life and his position on partial birth abortion

is identical to Hillary Clinton's position. He expressly opposes criminalizing women or doctors. He will veto a ban on abortions if it comes across his desk.

Sorry if you don't like your repeating of false facts being rebutted, but until you can back up what you right, expect it.

[Zynx]

9. I personally find non-emergency abortion to be abhorrent, but do not advocate making

it illegal.

[faithfulcitizen]

11. I too am personally 100% opposed to abortion and I believe life begins at conception.

But, politically I'm pro-choice because I'm not willing to say as a matter of public policy it should be illegal. But, I do think we should and could be doing more in this country to minimize abortions and make adoptions easier. It's a very complicated issue for me as well.

[Growler]

33. totally agree

[Lisa0825]

13. Thank you for clarifying that.

I have to admit that some of the recent posts had me concerned, but I'm the type to wait for more info and not just jump to coonclusions. I'm glad to know that he is supportive of reproductive rights.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

15. I think most people are not pro-abortion but pro-choice. The two are

mutually exclusive. I am against abortion but pro-choice.

[Heather MC]

16. I don't understand why Abortion is a political issue.

The Supreme court ruled it legal, it would take the Courts to overturn it.
For that to happen they have tohave a case that deals with the issue. And even though their are about 4 republican Appointees in the Supreme Court, Don't they need to take each case as if comes and not make the assumption that just because they are Repuke Appointees they will automatically rule based on their party affiliation and not the merits of the case.
Otherwise whats the point of a "justice system" I know it;s a naive thought

I just think throwin the Abortion subject into to a political fight is just a pathetic smoke screen to ignor the real problems with this country, and how badly screwed up it is.

[salonghorn70]

17. Here Is the Website for Democrats for Life

<http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=49>

I didn't spend a lot of time looking at it but in the "About Us" section I did not see anything saying they were anti Roe v. Wade or that overturning Roe v. Wade was a goal.

onenote said it very well. You can be anti abortion or pro life and still be pro choice. Now, if you were a right wing nut, being pro life would mean that you are also anti choice.

[TwilightGardener]

19. I agree--I believe life begins at conception, and I am very queasy

and conflicted about abortion past the first trimester, but I am politically pro-choice. Kaine's position on this does not concern me.

[Lucky 13]

20. This is similar in my mind to the gun issue.

I do not feel that I personally could ever own a gun. I feel it is wrong... for ME. But I support the right of any American who wishes to own a gun and will do so in a responsible manner.

Similarly, I do not feel that I personally could ever have an abortion. I feel it is wrong... for ME.

But I respect and will fight for the rights of any woman to be in control of her own body and life decisions. The idea of the government, made up of priviledged white males making rules about what any woman can and can't do with her own body INFURIATES me. And I understand that I need to fight for a woman's right to choose...even if her choice is different than the one I would make.

I respect Gov. Kaine for his stance. I feel it's an honest and very self-aware answer... He has the ability to have his own beliefs, morality, etc. without the need to impose those beliefs on others. Isn't that what we should look for in a good leader?

[crankychatter]

21. It's precisely because it IS a terrible decision that it must NEVER be a man's decision NT

[scheming daemons]

22. I fit into that category. My wife and I would never have an abortion..... but we definitely would

not preclude anyone else from making that choice.

It's none of our business.

[jobycom]

23. He's anti-choice by my definition.

From the position papers on the "Democrats for Life" website:

"On secular human rights grounds, the Left should take a stand against abortion."

"Writer and activist Jay Sykes, who once served as head of the Wisconsin ACLU, wrote: "It is on the abortion issue that the moral bankruptcy of contemporary liberalism is most clearly exposed," because the arguments used in support of abortion "could, without much refinement, be used to justify the legalization of infanticide." The Left is divided over abortion."

"A rational secular case thus exists for the rights of preborn humans."

"And the right to privacy is not absolute."

http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/art-abortleft.html (The entire article argues that laws restricting abortion can be secular).

From another position paper on the website:

"...it is essential to the pro-life movement that Democrats who are pro-life stay in the party and make their voices heard. Think about it. If all pro-life people shunned the Democratic party, who would then speak up for the unborn?"

"We must question the platform, advocate compromise, pique the consciences of other Democrats, and serve as a buffer against the more radical elements in the party."

"The Democrats for Life and Feminists for Life organizations are proof that all people can and should be pro-life."

http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/kerschen.htm

His own words on abortion:

As governor, I will work in good faith to reduce abortions by:
1. Enforcing the current Virginia restrictions on abortion and passing an enforceable ban on partial birth abortion that protects the life and health of the mother;
2. Fighting teen pregnancy through abstinence-focused education

http://www.ontheissues.org/Governor/Tim_Kaine_Abortion.htm


He belongs to an organization that advocates laws against abortion. That's my definition of anti-choice.

[onenote]

28. Prove he's a member of that organization

Go ahead...show some evidence, other than an uncited reference in wikipedia, that he belongs.

Also, if he's anti-choice because he supports a "enforceable ban on partial abortion that protects the life and health of the mother" than Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are anti-choice, since they've taken exactly the same position.

[jobycom]

30. If he's not, show me. It's all over the internet, and DFLA is thrilled with him

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=373&Itemid=2

"Because of Governor Kaine's pro-life beliefs, the article argued that he is affable and electable to Republicans as well. This is critically important for balancing out Senator Obama's ticket. DFLA is excited to see the possibilities that Governor Kaine could bring to the table and urges its members to read this interesting article."

----

[onenote]

32. "its all over the internet"? That's your basis.

The only thing that is all over the internet is the same unsubstantiated reference in wikipedia. Not one other statement from any other source. None.

Sorry, the burden isn't on me to prove a negative, its on those making the claim he belongs to an organization to point to any evidence, other than a statement in wikipedia that on its face says "citation needed" to support that claim.

[jobycom]

37. Oh, horseshit.

It's commonly claimed in published articles, encyclopedic biographies, and blogs. Maybe they all come from one common misconception from one original source, but given his own pro-life statements, it's not unreasonable for people to believe it. And Wikipedia is quoting other sources, so that's not the origin of the claim. Not to mention, Wikipedia can be edited, so someone from Kaine's camp could have corrected that at any time if they were bothered by it.

As for the burden of proof, I'll consider him pro-life until I hear from his lips or from a reliable recent quote of his that he's not. He's certainly not tried to correct the claims that he's pro-life.

[onenote]

41. commonly claimed...then cite to one that isn't the same as wikipedia

just one. shouldn't be hard.

And it is unreasonable to believe it given what he has said about abortion, namely that even if Roe v Wade were overturned, he'd veto legislation banning abortion.

Go ahead, make up your own facts to support your preconceived notions. But until you have proof your position is based on nothing more than swamp gas.

[FloridaJudy]

38. "It's all over the Internet" ???

Like the "fact" that Obama is a secret Moslem? If that's your basis for making a statement, join the "Low Information" sheeple and watch Fux News: your sources are about as reliable as theirs.

I don't believe anything these days without a link to a reliable source.

And as to someone's beliefs, those are a private matter. It's what one does publicly that counts. I could believe I'm the reincarnation of Catherine the Great, but until I start issuing edicts, that's between me and my psychiatrist.

[jobycom]

39. Like the fact that Obama is the nominee, or the fact that McCain is a senator

Yes, that way, it's on multiple websites, including encyclopedic references.

Really, if the extent of your discussion skills is to draw false analogies and hurl insults, you should stop posting. You contribute nothing and hurt the cause.

[onenote]

45. and you still haven't cited to a single website that backs up your claim

I've searched extensively, and the only references are one's that rely on or basically copy the wikipedia entry. Nothing else. Zero. Nada. Ball's in your court.

[mvd]

25. I am pro-choice

Personally, I think abortion should be more like a last resort, but the government should not limit a woman's right to choose. I have reservations about the third trimester, but those abortions are already very rare.

[faithfulcitizen]

49. reservations about 3rd trimester? I thought it was illegal since a baby could live out of the womb?

If it isn't, I think it should be. "My goodness, make up you mind- your due next week!" That's murder, imo.

[mvd]

50. Illegal? Not completely as partial birth abortions are allowed

Not sure about other kinds. Partial birth abortion should definitely be legal when the life or health of the mother is threatened.

[Scout]

58. people who are pro-choice know there is no such thing as partial-birth abortion

it is a right wing code word.

[Scout]

57. your post is ignorant and disgusting

as if women seek to abort viable fetuses in the 3rd trimester.

not to mention calling women murderers.

:grr:

[faithfulcitizen]

59. I'm responding to a post about aborting viable fetuses. I didn't originate the point.

And I didn't call women murderers. I said aborting a viable fetus in the 3rd trimester is murder,imo. So, what the hell is your point? You disagree? Oh, and here's a smiley for your post: :dunce:

[Scout]

63. so IF aborting a viable fetus in the 3rd trimester is murder, in your opinion,

how would that not make the woman a murderer?

You DID call women murderers. You said abortion in the 3rd trimester should be illegal if it's not already.

Keep your stupid smiley.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. It's legal in some circumstances, but not on demand, which I think is absolutely the right approach.

I think there is no case whatsoever to be made that abortion should not be legal even in the third trimester in cases of medical emergency - yes, that sometimes will mean killing something that is in essence a baby; yes, that's a lesser evil than letting the mother die - and that the case for making abortion available on demand in the third trimester is very weak indeed (by that point, the foetus is self-aware).

The latter is basically a non-issue, though - except on DU, even most pro-choice activists aren't in favour of third-term abortion on demand, partly because so few people would want it.

There are depressingly many people who oppose third-term abortions, or even earlier abortions, even in case of severe medical emergencies, though.

[grantcart]

27. and the same holds for his position on capital punishment

He is against it but also swore to uphold the laws as enacted. He did not use his clemency powers to stop any executions in Virginia but did use his powers to stop an attempt to make them the most aggressively applied laws in the country - even more than Texas.

[Whisp]

34. Thanks. I don't know why people get so tied up in knots over it.

Most reasonable electeds can easily separate their personal beliefs from what the law requires to uphold. at least on the democratic side - the repugs, well we all know that's a different story.

[FSogol]

42. Thanks. Gov. Kaine's record has been misrepresented here at DU. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

48. I wouldn't call him entirely anti-choice. But his position on

"partial birth abortion" as he calls it, is troubling.

It reeks of political compromise, and compromising with people's rights always bothers me - especially when it's a right so basic as the right to make your own private medical choices about your own body.

I'm also anti-abortion for myself. Cannot see the circumstances in which I'd choose that. But I'll be darned if I think I'm qualified to make such a decision for any other woman.

[onenote]

51. its basically the same position that Kerry, Clinton and Obama take

They all have stated that they support restrictions on "partial birth abortions" (their term, not mine) if protections are provided for the health and life of the mother.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. The bit I saw from Kaine didn't seem to have that in it

So I hope that's the case. And I hope they're clear that the decision on what impacts the health and life of the mother is up to the doctor and the mother, not legislators!

[onenote]

55. From his 2005 campaign website:

From his 2005 Campaign website:

"I have a faith-based opposition to abortion. As governor, I will work in good faith to reduce abortions by:

Enforcing the current Virginia restrictions on abortion and passing an enforceable ban on partial birth abortion that protects the life and health of the mother;

Fighting teen pregnancy through abstinence-focused education;

Ensuring women's access to health care (including legal contraception) and economic opportunity; and
Promoting adoption as an alternative for women facing unwanted pregnancies.

Too often politicians are interested in scoring political points, rather than in reducing the number of abortions. Many of the legislative proposals introduced in the General Assembly, like the ones to require unnecessary building standards for doctor's offices that perform abortions, are just political grandstanding. They encourage division and lawsuits rather than contributing to the goal of reducing abortions.

Source: Campaign website www.kaine2005.org, "Issues" Nov 8, 2005

[JerseygirlCT]

56. Thanks for that. I still don't love it (don't think we should be

passing that "enforceable ban", period), but I can live with it.

[Stop Cornyn]

52. I'm not especially interested in having a same-sex romance, but I support the right of gays to marry

I have never been the target of racial discrimination, but I favor affirmative action.

I'm not physically disabled, but I favor fair housing rights for the disabled.

I would think of it as a sad thing instead of a cause for celebration if a friend of mine had to get an abortion, but I'm still 100% pro-choice.

Is any of this complicated to grasp? Tim Kaine is an excellent VP candidate, and the fact that he supports reproductive rights despite his personal religious beliefs speaks volumes about his appreciation of the need for a constitutional separation of personal religious beliefs and the administration of a secular government.

[onenote]

53. yup.

I'm not thrilled about his position on embryonic stem cell research (he opposes government funding), but that, in and of itself, isn't enough for me to conclude he's not acceptable. I wouldn't say he's my first choice, because at this point I don't really have a first choice. But he's at least as good a choice, if not better, than a lot of the other names that have been bandied around, imo. And he certainly doesn't deserve the attacks that have been levelled against him by some here at DU.

[vaberella]

61. Of course. Politically I'm Pro-Choice. As an individual I'm Pro-Life.

No one is one thing. People have different views and different takes. No person is 100% anything.

[JCMach1]

62. He has exactly my opinion...

Until men can channel a vagina, they should STFU