Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Sky is Falling!

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:34 AM
Original message
The Sky is Falling!
Q#1: Is Barack Obama going to lose the election because he is "moving towards the center"?

A: No, he will win. The truth is that the most progressive candidate in the 2004 and 2008 democratic primaries was Dennis Kucinich, and while he ran honorable and important campaigns, the number of primaries he won suggests that a democratic candidate running on a solid progressive platform does not get enough votes to succeed in today’s political climate.

Q#2: Should progressive and liberal democrats support Obama?

A: I think so. If we made a graph of the ten most important issues today, and compare the numbers regarding where both of the candidates stand, John McCain would score a zero in terms of progressive and liberal values. While there is good reason for progressives and liberals to have concerns about some of Obama’s positions, even if he scores as low as 50%, that is a huge difference in what direction he would take the country, compared to McCain.

Q#3: If elected, would President Obama actually listen to progressive and liberal democrats from the grass roots level?

A: The best model would be the position that the civil rights leaders, who were responsible for bringing out the black vote for John F. Kennedy that gave him the margin of victory in 1960, were in. They experienced frustrations with the pace of President Kennedy’s actions once elected. Kennedy did not follow through on one of his campaign promises, for example, about instituting change with "the stroke of a pen."

The civil rights leaders had the grass roots mail President Kennedy thousands of pens. And they put pressure on the administration with public protests. Looking back, we can see that while President Kennedy was not perfect, his Attorney General took progressive actions on civil rights. That was as a result of a combination of factors, including the President and Attorney General recognizing the importance of the black voters.

Q#4: Isn’t Obama’s campaign contaminated, because both the democratic and republican parties depend upon corporate contributions?

A: In the early 1960s, Malcolm X said that the leaders of the democratic party were foxes, and the leaders of the republican party were wolves. In the late ‘70s, Senator Ted Kennedy told us that corporate influence had destroyed the Congress’s ability to represent the interests of the American citizens. So in a very real sense, the majority of elected leaders in Washington, DC are corporate canines.

However, Obama has financed his campaign in large part in the way that Howard Dean pioneered in 2004, by making use of the internet to raise significant amounts of money from the grass roots. There is a huge difference between Obama and McCain here.

Q#5: Is Barack Obama’s support a "cult of personality"?

A: Yes, a big part of it absolutely is. There are three types of "leadership": traditional, systematic, and charismatic. All leaders who have the personality attributes that we call "charismatic" will have a certain amount of support that is based upon a "cult of personality. That in and of itself is neither good nor bad; the important thing for progressives and liberals to focus on is working together as a group of individuals.

Q#6: Is it wrong to disagree with Obama at this point in the 2008 election?

A: No. However, there is a big difference between those who have opposed Obama since last summer, and who constantly attempt to undermine democratic unity, and those who either supported a different candidate, but who now support Obama but still voice areas where they strongly disagree with him. More, even those who have long supported Obama’s campaign likely have issues that they disagree with him on. As the old saying goes, any time two people think just alike, only one of them is thinking.

Q#7: What type of "change" can Obama realistically make in Washington?

A: The most significant change that Obama can make in governing is to open the door to allow true democracy to reassert itself. As Sean Wilentz points out in the preface to his book "The Rise of American Democracy," our country’s first couple of decades were governed as a republic. The "res publica," or "public thing," was intended to have a ruling class of the most worthy and enlightened men ruling the nation.

Democracy, or "demos krateo," means "rule of the people." It wasn’t until the early 1800s that this country made the transition to a democracy, as imperfect as it was. McCain represents a continuation of the anti-democratic form of rule we have had under Bush-Cheney. Obama represents the potential for rule of the people. Thus, the real changes necessary to repair our Constitutional democracy will come from "the people," not from any one person in Washington.

Q#8: How could the grass roots bring about any real change?

A: Knowledge is power. Knowing the correct way that our Constitutional democracy is supposed to work is the first step. That includes knowing how the three branches of the federal govern are intended to balance each other.

An Obama administration will not be perfect. But key positions, such as the Attorney General’s Office, can either be headed by a person such as John Edwards under Obama, or with another corrupt republican under McCain. In one case, we would have an opportunity to exercise democracy; in the other, the door would remain locked shut.

Also, Obama’s appointments to the federal courts would be significantly different than McCain’s. While even in two terms, President Obama could not change the US Supreme Court into a more liberal institution, he can keep it at about the unfortunate balance it now has. Under McCain, the court can only become more conservative.

Perhaps the most important way we can exercise power now is in supporting democratic candidates running for the House and Senate. The current democratic leadership has not taken the stands that many of us desire, but with a larger number of democrats, we would have the best chances for having true representation.

Q#9: What should people at the grass roots level be doing between now and the November elections?

A: Exercising their Constitutional rights, as defined by the Bill of Rights. That is our democratic muscle, and it is sadly out of shape. We should be exercising it at every opportunity.

Q#10: Is the sky falling?

A: Definitely. The only question is, who is it going to fall on? If we take hold of the bump-on-a-log theology, and wring our hands and cluck about being powerless, it will fall on us. The results will be more people being crushed, losing their jobs and homes, going without medical insurance, and a dangerous increase in the war in the Middle East. The other option is working hard in the next few months, investing time and energy and money in the upcoming elections. If we do that, the sky will fall on the McCain campaign. The choice is ours.







Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. H2O Man!
the endless k&r'ing of your essays has become a routine pleasure
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
64. DU can help Obama in fighting the smears. Here's a thread on McCain's latest 'tax' smear
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very well reasoned - Thanks ! -Printed it out/that's how I study the worthwhile
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. Kick!!!
Excellent. :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
4. another brilliant piece by you
thank you for the succinct and logical way in which you posed and answered the questions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
5. Very well said! H is da man! NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent.
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. doggedly rational, as always.
thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. He's too skinny! He has no debt! He's not rich enough! He's not poor enough!
He's not white enough!
He's not black enough!

....

:silly:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. You forgot the really big ears.
n/t.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well done!
:D K and R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jazzgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kay and Are.....again!!
You are off the hook as usual!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. k and r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. Is Obama going to change anything about how -- and by whom -- this country is run?
Edited on Sun Aug-03-08 02:57 PM by omega minimo
No



Q#7: What type of "change" can Obama realistically make in Washington?

A: "The most significant change that Obama can make in governing is to open the door to allow true democracy to reassert itself."

"McCain represents a continuation of the anti-democratic form of rule we have had under Bush-Cheney."

Obama doesn't?

"Obama represents the potential for rule of the people."

How do you substantiate this, H20 Man? His actions speak louder than his words. He may engage more of -- and a different subset of -- "The People," but he has not really challenged the status quo, has he?




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3721507
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. George W. Bush changed things. I assume you are voting Nader.
Thank you for reminding me. In your honor and in memory of those who were purists in 2000, I am now sending another $50 to Obama.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I have stated that I will vote for the Democratic candidate. Nice flamebait
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Not at all. Thank you for that, and Obama just got another $50, thanks to you.
Keep it up. In fact, keep posting that all over DU.

Thanks again.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. this kind of nonsensical bs seems insane
:thumbsdown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. argh
Edited on Sun Aug-03-08 07:10 PM by Skittles
wrong thread
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I would suggest
reading #8.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Thank you. #8 does not answer the question:
Edited on Sun Aug-03-08 03:44 PM by omega minimo
"Is Obama going to change anything about how -- and by whom -- this country is run?"

And I am not comparing an Obama WH to McCain. ANY Democrat would try to correct the toxic level of politicization of the courts, if possible.




"The current democratic leadership has not taken the stands that many of us desire, but with a larger number of democrats, we would have the best chances for having true representation."

This statement is hopeful and innocuous, and like Obama, skips over some of the most agregious recent history that must be challenged for there to be any change on the fundamental level I am talking about.

It belies your other point about awareness of Constitutional government.

I think you know better and trust you not to patronize me here. You are a wise elder, yet you pat others on the head, who accept platitudes and do not challenge the assumptions that you must know are leading us toward not much changing in the larger sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Actually,
it does answer your question. I think that you do not like the answer, and disagree with it. But I do not think there is any real chance that you do not understand it. Hence, I think that the risk that one of us is attempting to patronize the other is the opposite of what you suggest.

If you want to have a serious discussion, that's fine. I'm open to that. But I'm not interested in participation in silly attempts to be clever with comments about wise elders, platitudes, and pats on heads. I tend to ignore those who say things like that. But, I know that you have always had an edge to you, and that can be a good thing, sometimes.

The OP is an attempt to focus more of our attention on the grass roots, rather than an attempt to get people to think that the responsibility for instituting change falls with one person, even if he is the President of the United States. By no coincidence, Senator Obama has consistently said that he will rely upon the energy of the grass roots, for example by having them lobby members of Congress on specific issues. That is an idea that I believe has potential. It is not unlike the numerous times that I have asked DUers to write, call and/or e-mail elected officials on specific issues.

I've also mentioned that the people Obama would put in key positions would be important. I would hope that all democrats would recognize the differences in having John Edwards vs John Ashcroft as Attorney General. But, again, I have said that it will still be essential for people at the grass roots to take the same approach that the civil rights movement took with Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Likewise, I continue to say that once Obama is elected, our real work begins.

Obama's position on the issues involving Iraq and Iran are distinct from John McCain's. Does that suggest that I find them 100% acceptable? Of course not.

The people that Obama would place on the federal courts is distinct from those that McCain would. If a person holds the position that this is not important, I think they are foolish. Going back to the gains that the civil rights movement made in the 1950s and '60s provides solid evidence that the make-up of the federal courts is significant. Does this mean I think they will be perfect? Of course not.

The damage that has been done to our form of government has been severe, especially in the past 8 years. But, of course, it goes back farther than that. Thus, as I've said numerous times, even if Obama serves two terms, he can only begin to make changes. The bureaucracy involved in just the Department of Justice would prevent the Obama administration from resolving all the issues. It will take at very least 20 years to make those repairs.

So, I think that Obama can make some changes, but I know that it depends at least as much on what we as individual citizens do, as on any single politician. As noted, Obama will provide the grass roots with some degree of opportunity to make changes. One could bemoan the fact that those chances seem small, indeed, but I am reminded that people who complain about a lack of opportunity tend to overlook the fact that small doors often lead to large rooms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. "No Difference?"
I remember in 2001, the humor site: Topfive.com ran: "10 Things on Al Gore's To-do List." One of them was to send a glass of cyanide-laced water to Ralph Nader with the note: "No difference, wise-guy?"

If you remember, on of the first things Bush did when he took office was to have EPA loosen up the regulations on the allowable concentration of cyanide in water.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I wish some of you would read what I write instead of what you think I wrote
based on misguided assumptions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Agreed & Well Said
I too, as you mentioned will vote for the Democratic Nominee, however my money goes to the ACLU to fight the FISA fiasco and to the Sierra Club for that nice turn on off shore drilling.

So no money, no yard sign , no bumper sticker, no buttons, nothing beyond my vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. There was no 'turn' on off-shore drilling. That's merely what the media wants you to believe.
Seriously, let's see where Obama said off-shore drilling was out of the question. Then, actually read and understand his words when he said that if it meant other solutions would be realized, drilling might be a useful compromise.

What is it with people having to think in such black and white terms?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #46
59. People a) already have their minds made up or b) are dumb.
its a sad reality of life.. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #46
68. Drilling is a useless compromise, but
you win your point, I give up....


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. You're absolutely right, drilling is totally useless as a solution...
especially given that oil companies won't drill until they can maximize profit.

I'm not happy that he has to consider the possibility of this compromise, but if it gets more funding for alternatives, then it's a small price in the long run.

Now, if he can put some fangs on civil and legal actions if there are any spills, then we can make sure the drillers exercise more caution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RayOfHope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. Granted, they are words and not actions (yet!) but this is what he had to say on Wed:
As president, he said that he would send his cabinet members out among the people of the US and not keep them holed up in Washington. He said he would put pending legislation on the internet so we could read and comment on it before he signs it. Obama made it very clear that he wants the input of the people.

Will he actually do it? Who knows. I'd like to think so. I haven't heard mccain say any of this, and we sure know bush operates with a real 'fuck you, anything goes' attitude. Obama may not be perfect--he obviously can't and won't please everyone, but he's a damn sight better than what the other side has to offer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
48. Look at it like this! A slow decent into hell is more preferable than a fast decent;
and predictably the only change will be the arrival time, all other options have been taken off of the table. But there’s no harm in dreaming…

Alas, Obama might actually turn out to be a Trojan Horse, and if elected to the highest office in the land he will bring the troops home and bring them into Washing DC, with orders too remove the right wing corporate Mafioso’s, the purported religious fundamentalist wolves, extremist sycophant suck-ups , robber barons, psychopaths, Nazis etc., all of which has taken over our government so as they can terrorize the world with impunity and in the name and expense of Liberty, Freedom, Democracy and the American people, bla bla bla…

But of course, I won’t be holding my breath because I know that any attempts at real change or justice, or any attempt to take back this country, would probably be an offence that required removal from office, one way or the other. Anyhow, like I said, a slow decent into hell is more preferable than a fast decent. Maybe that will buy us the needed time to change the inevitable. So that’s why I am going to vote for Obama. Along with that and the fact that my wife said I am not allowed too bitch if I don’t vote…


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
58. Who is going to change it then?
No one. I prefer to elect the candidate that will do the best job out of those who can be elected. It's not rocket science.

Obama is almost exponentially preferable to McCain no matter how much further you think he should go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. I really liked this
thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. Obama’s appointments to the federal courts would be significantly different than McCain’s
And you need any other reason to vote for Obama?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. Unfortunately, we can't control Obama's message.
Edited on Sun Aug-03-08 04:02 PM by Major Hogwash
If Obama wants to be steamrolled flat, all he has to do is continue to do what he is doing now.
People are not tired enough of Bush's "guaranteed to fail" policies yet.
They don't care about the Iraq War.
They don't care about the propaganda on television.
Thye don't care about the justice department being politicized.
They don't care about leaking Valerie Plame's covert status with the CIA.
They don't care about the anthrax letters.
They don't care about the outsourcing of American jobs.
They don't care about the high price of gasoline.
They don't care about the high prices paid for groceries.

It's the Democrat's fault.
Just ask them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
27. Well said. Thanks.
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks, H2OMan!
I choose the sky to fall on mccain..the one who the US media wants, won't tell the truth about ANYTHING, and willing to send Soldiers to their death for idealogy of war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
30. A very sober and sane reflection. Thanks.
It is neither a time for panic, nor is it a time for apathy.

It's time for a change.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. and we must run to tell the king!!! . . . n/t
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. K & R. I hope everyone thinks through this list. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpookyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
35. Wonderful - Thank you.
Printed out for reference later...too tired to fully absorb...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
36. Candidates like Kucinich don't lose because they can't hypothetically win.
They lose because the fucking establishment Dems don't really want fundamental change, and thus won't give true progressive candidates the resources they need to launch a "real" campaign.

Americans will seriously consider anything that gets a lot of air time, as evidenced by interest reality TV. Once something is overexposed, it becomes a "norm" (not THE norm, but an accepted dynamic).

Money and media exposure. Really has fuck-all to do with the actual message. Bush's continuous plundering and war mongering proves that we will take anything seriously as long as it has 24/7 coverage on CNN as an "actual concern".

When real change happens in this country, I fear it will be violent and bloody. It will happen when people have to fight for food and fuel and don't have time to watch American Idol. The powers that rule this country, nay, this PLANET, will not yield their power peacefully. They've been stockpiling and hoarding for 30 years while we all went out and got variable interest loans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. Right.
I agree with you on your point regarding candidates such as Kucinich. The machine does not allow their stances to be presented in the context of a real option. Yet in the debates, Dennis often gave the most popular, honest answers. More, the fact that he has been elected and re-elected to Congress indicates that when his message gets fair coverage, he does win.

I think that we can take this a step further: in the context of a Bush-Cheney administration, Dennis Kucinich is a "voice in the wilderness"; in the context of an Obama administration, his power will increase. It is essential, in my opinion, that progressive and liberal democrats at the grass roots level recognize the advantages of investing our resources in the very few true progressive democrats, such as Kucinich.

You are exactly right about the media. People my age are likely reminded of the things that VP Agnew said about the media in the early 1970s: what he falsely accused the media of then is the reality today. The corporate media and the vast majority of nationally know journalists have betrayed their trade, and the American people.

There is, unfortunately, a very real threat that there can be the violence and bloodshed in our future, that you mention. All the ingrediants are there, and things such as the McCain ad with the Moses imagery are clearly appeals to the darker impulses of this country. As Vince Bugliosi points out in his new book, the republican right-wing -- and especially the "religious" right -- have the same potential for self-righteous explosiveness as any religiously delusional population on the planet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
37. Only one little quibble so to speak...
I have no doubt that if we were to try to hold an Obama administration accountable, similar to how the Civil Rights Movement did with Kennedy, it will split the left, again, mostly because too many people do NOT want to make him accountable, for anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
38. Man, I think you did a great job with this post and I can't argue with any of it.
On change, it is up to us to help Barack work toward needed change in this country. I think it was FDR who was listening to someone tell him he needed to do something and he told him. Well, then, you go out there and make me do it. It is up to us the Grassroots to help Obama make those changes. First he has to get elected and I think we have the best chance of "needed change" this year with Barack and I hope and think the congress will gain more democrats to help us get there.

Also, you mentioned the corporate power with the money they pour into both parties. As you stated Obama has not relied on that kind of money as his comes from a large number of small donors. All those factors together point toward a strong possibility of the needed change we have all been hoping for so long of a time.

Good post, K&R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. Supreme Court.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
41. K and R
Thank You!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sammythecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
42. I'm inspired ! Really.
I wish every Democrat who's considering not voting this fall would read that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
43. As usual: well said H2O Man
We have no choice but to opt for Obama, when he is elected we will have to try to get him to move a bit towards center, because under most definitions of left and right, he is to the right of center and McCain is a rightest extremist so Vote for Obama! And get more progressive Senators and Representatives into Congress.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
44. This post f'n rocked.
That is all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
45. Too Excellent!
Simply just! :loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
49. Good one K&R
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jbane Donating Member (668 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
50. Beware of those that ask and answer their own questions!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Beware of Darkness
by George Harrison



Watch out now, take care
Beware of falling swingers
Dropping all around you
The pain that often mingles
In your fingertips
Beware of darkness

Watch out now, take care
Beware of the thoughts that linger
Winding up inside your head
The hopelessness around you
In the dead of night

Beware of sadness
It can hit you
It can hurt you
Make you sore and what is more
That is not what you are here for

Watch out now, take care
Beware of soft shoe shufflers
Dancing down the sidewalks
As each unconscious sufferer
Wanders aimlessly
Beware of Maya

Watch out now, take care
Beware of greedy leaders
They take you where you should not go
While Weeping Atlas Cedars
They just want to grow, grow and grow
Beware of darkness (beware of darkness)





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
51. Ha. Wonderful post, Waterman.
Entertaining, informative and grounded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
53. NOW IS THE TIME TO GET REGISTERED TO VOTE (by mail if you suspect issues at the polls)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
54. Nice post H20!
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 07:32 AM by Marrah_G
I agree with much of your post, disagree with a little. I'll leave it a mystery as to which is which!


Mail received- I am enjoying it, the picture are fabulous. Thank you so much!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Good!
I'm glad that you got it. I hope that you enjoy the book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
56. yay let's vote for the least worst
:eyes:

Seriously, I fucking hate the apologistas.

Voting for Obama anyway but I hate this kind of post.

Warning ** warning ** warning Obama-bot alert: If that 50% we don't agree on ever crosses into giving up my rights as an individual to privacy, due process, probable cause, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, ETCETERA, then I probably won't vote for him. Least worst is not always best.

Anyway, if Obama wants to play non-liberal to get the non-liberal votes then why should I support him? If he does that he's not a leader, he's a panderer, and there is NO REASON anyone sane here can give that we should reward being ignored.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. What you do
is up to you. If you have a better idea than supporting Obama, best of luck to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. well I don't have to be happy and I don't have to accept
"the non-liberal non-progressive" middle on face value.

I'm not going away. I demand a progressive candidate, and I'm not alone. My "better idea" is don't give anyone a free pass, ever.

If you do, you're just status quo cattle whose vote can and SHOULD be taken for granted. I on the other hand am very happy that you will vote for Obama no matter what even if us progressives and liberals manage to get him to be progressive and liberal.

Sorry for the abrasive tone - I get what you're doing and why and I respect why you're doing it. I'm just fed up with one particular schism or another in our party claiming to be the middle, and demanding everyone's votes out of party loyalty. It doesn't make me feel good about being a democrat, and I want to feel good about my choices, not merely that I have made the least wrong choice.

That requires real leadership. Fortunately, for the moment I believe we have the makings of a real leader in Obama, but even if he walked on water and raised the dead three times a day before breakfast, I still wouldn't give him a free pass and neither should you. What's the point of the political process if we can't vote for a candidate based on merit instead of duty?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Oh, deer! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
57. I am H2O Man's first follower in his cult of personality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ajh60 Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
63. This Sounds Great but......
Edited on Mon Aug-04-08 09:03 AM by ajh60
He has to get elected. I like to think that the Democratic party is similar to an out of control mob minus the organization.To many focused on their agenda making it impossible to govern if elected. For now, Obama must pick a position and stick with it. Before I get jumped on, look at his change (however slight or qualified)on oil drilling. McCain is going to have an ad this week charging flip flop. The idea that Obama is going to do great things etc forgets about the possibility, the real possibility McCain could beat him.

Obama please do us all a favor and run as if you are 10 points down ALWAYS. He is looking more and more a lightweight in the minds of alot of folks as he lets McCain dictate the terms of this fight. If McCain gets to dictate the terms, Obama loses.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
65. That Malcolm!
Foxes & wolves!

I wonder who Obama's RFK would be? Teddy as a background player?

As you know, I disagree with Obama and his previous stand on impeachment. The fact that Cass Sunstein (is that his name?) is on his team worries me, especially after watching the Frontline piece last night. Truly at the very least, Rummy, Cheney, Addington, Libby, Gonzales, Perle, Wolfowitz, Chalabi, Yoo and several others should be tried for war crimes. I also hope Obama keeps his promise to go over everything these criminals have done when he gets in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
66. Would that H2OMan were a "pundit." He'd shame the likes of Buchanan
and his ilk.

Short, simple, and spot-on. Thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. I must say
that I would enjoy the opportunity to be a guest on something like the Mourning Joe Show on MSNBC. It would be a pleasure to debate Pat and Joe. I do believe, however, that they shame themselves; I would simply like to point that out to them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC