A Forum on Faith ? ...... OUTSTANDING !!!!!

[RagAss]

Our founders are spinning in their fucking graves !

Why?

Because they knew what it was like to have it shoved down their throats !

I am so done with this election.

[GarbagemanLB]

1. Bye.

[Ashy Larry]

2. You probably shouldn't watch it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Yes, it's frustrating that this is where our politics lie these days, however

as much as I hate to hear them discuss religion, paradoxically they have to do so in order to reach the religiously-minded voters. *sigh*

Personally, I'm not going to watch it.

[jefferson_dem]

4. Yay! Let's hear it for anti-religious hate and bigotry!

A true tribute to the party. :eyes:

Bye.

[RagAss]

6. There's no bigotry or anti-religion in me....faith is personal and...

I respect that right.

However....

This is my country....not a church.

[blondeatlast]

9. Then you might tone down that angry rhetoric. Like it or not, it's become a very

political issue and even Christians like me want it far away from the government. Right now, this election is our best hope FOR the separation of church and state.

[Ron Green]

15. Faith is not ONLY personal.

It's also part of the public sphere, along with the State and the Market. The important thing is to not let religious bigotry threaten people's lives or freedoms. Tolerance and charity won't emanate from the Free Market, I'll promise you that.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

10. It is not hatred or bigotry to say certain statements of fact are flat wrong.

Unlike most of the religious, we atheists tend to take religion seriously.

[jefferson_dem]

19. What statement of fact?

That having a candidate forum in a church makes this nation a church? That it's some kind of violation to have a president candidate talk about his faith?

I'm neither religious nor an atheist and I also take religion seriously. That includes respecting the faith of those who wish to practice and profess it.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

38. The existence of the Christian God is an assertion of fact

Saying that Christians are wrong in the one factual statement they claim is central to their very being is not bigotry.

It does, however, say something unfavorable about Christianity, and by extension, about Christians. I wish it were otherwise, but the criticism follows inexorably from the conclusion.

Christians think I'm gong to Hell, but I don't say they have to respect my views or else they are bigots.

[jefferson_dem]

42. I appreciate your point.

In my opinion...

The Fundie claim that you are going to hell based on their belief system is as wrong as you telling Christians their faith is fiction based on your (lack of) belief system.

Therein lies a problem of stereotyping. Not all Christians would say you are going to hell and I would bet you do not consider all religious belief systems to be fiction.

I like to listen to actual tone and message. Tomorrow, I suspect Obama will offer profound committments to the values and policy objectives we all agree on. That he might cloak those values and policies in faith is cool by me. In fact...I find it rather refreshing. ...And I'm no Christian.

[peace13]

12. It is the mixing of religion and politics that breeds this hate.

Those of us who want to keep our religion private do not want other peoples religious demands mixed in with our government. I am sorry if this upsets you.

[jefferson_dem]

21. Yeah. Bigotry and intolerance kind of upsets me...

Having Barack and McSame talk about their private faith perspectives in a public forum does not amount to the mixing of religious demands with the governmnet, in my view.

[peace13]

26. It scares me that you can't see how this might be offensive.

Hope you can keep you oh so open mind as our country becomes more diverse in the years to come.

[jefferson_dem]

37. I'm sorry you feel frightened...

Open minds and diversity rock!

[blondeatlast]

5. Don't let the door hicha where the Good Lord splitcha (oops, my bad!)!

:spank: myself...

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

7. Of the many reasons to vote Obama, "comfortable gibbering about his delusions" is dead last.

They showed a clip of him saying he "fundamentally" agrees with the general message of Genesis that God created the heavens and Earth.

There's nothing cute about using such code words.

[peace13]

8. It will be a holiday if it is just shoved down our throats. n/t

[stray cat]

11. Shoved down your throat - just turn off the TV!

[peace13]

14. You might want to add to this...

And don't go looking for any social services in America because you will do your begging at the steps of the faith based mission funded by American tax dollars. So you see one can't just turn off the TV.

[RagAss]

18. Good point...but I've been fortunate and healthy enough to work

.....for what little I have since I was 16 years old.

[peace13]

20. That's great.

We are reminded by the fate of others that we are all only temporarily able bodied.

[RagAss]

28. Agreed !

[MrsT]

13. Spare me your drama.

Bye.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

16. A reminder for the Religious:

You have the right to believe what you want to believe, as do we all.

You do not, however, have a right to have your views respected.

And considering false beliefs to be false is not bigotry.

[Occam Bandage]

22. Nor do the non-religious, of course.

You have the right to believe what you want to believe, as do we all.
You have the right to determine for yourself what you will respect, as do we all.
You do not have the right to have your declarations respected by others.

And hyperbolic declarations of "being done with this election" (due to religious people deciding they want to speak about religion to other religious people) are not likely to bring you much respect.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

34. I have made no presumptive demand of respect for my views

Unlike views wrapped in the flag of religion, none of my views are considered to be beyond polite criticism because of their nature.

I don't call people who disagree with me about the origins of life "bigots" for not kissing my ass.

I also don't tell people to just not listen to political speech if they don't like it. That would be an amazing thing to say about a conference on an equally touchy topic, like Israel/Palestine. What candidates say is, or should be, relevant.

And I agree that hyperbolic declarations of "being done with this election" (due to religious people deciding they want to speak about religion to other religious people) are not likely to bring me much respect, but that's not something I said.

[Occam Bandage]

36. That was intended to be an (admittedly-improper) general 'you.'

I ought have reworded to avoid implication of accusation.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

40. Sorry. I was just snarking at you.

One could mistake my little B&W Elvis Costello from the OP's little B&W Lenny Bruce, but I didn't think that was the case. I was just being arch for the heck of it.

[cliffordu]

31. I believe in the Easter Bunny so you better NEVER say that the Easter bunny is

bad.

[jefferson_dem]

35. A reminder for Democrats.

Bigotry is bigotry.

Dogmatism is dogmatism.

We should the party that tolerates and respects people from all faith traditions and those who have none at all.

"I think that the right might worry a bit more about the dangers of sectarianism. Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers. We should acknowledge this and realize that when we're formulating policies from the state house to the Senate floor to the White House, we've got to work to translate our reasoning into values that are accessible to every one of our citizens, not just members of our own faith community."

- Barack Obama, July 30, 2007

[RagAss]

39. Good Point.....

Are the candidates prepared to speak about all of the faiths represented by our population? I don't think so.
We know what the target audience is here.

[Occam Bandage]

17. Americans have the freedom to assemble, and the freedom to talk about their beliefs in public.

If you would prefer to not hear that type of speech, then feel free to neither attend nor watch that conference.

[peace13]

23. Please, will you pick my president for me?

You certainly can understand that with so many burning topics that Obama and McCain could discuss it is odd that they would pick this topic and this moderator first. With people like yourself brushing the feelings of others off so freely I guess that it doesn't surprise me.

[Occam Bandage]

27. Nope. In addition to having the right to assemble, the right to speak, and the right

to hold or renounce religious beliefs, you also have the right to vote. Feel free to vote for whoever you like.

Of course, if you base your vote on whether or not they decided to voluntarily talk about their personal religious beliefs to a crowd of religious people, all of whom attended voluntarily, then I will exercise my right to call you an idiot.

[RagAss]

25. They certainly do......

However, a Presidential candidate is someone who will soon set the direction for this nation. That's very different from folks like us discussing our personal beliefs publicly.

[Occam Bandage]

30. Not really, no. No American is Constitutionally forbidden from holding religious beliefs, from

assembling peaceably, or from speaking about those personal beliefs. The First Amendment bars Congress from establishing a religion. Nowhere does it imply that any citizens anywhere may not or ought not speak about their beliefs as citizens.

[muffin1]

24. I agree with you 100%.

Maybe 99%. I'm not so much done with this election as I am done with religion in politics.:puke:
I long for the day when we elect an atheist...will prolly be sometime after we elect a gay person.

[peace13]

32. The funny thing is that I know atheists who act more like people of religion are supposed to,

than the people who say they are religious act. I'm not Christian but I play one in real life. Go figure.

[BlueJazz]

29. .

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[blondeatlast]

41. Uh-oh, GB has rebuked this thread... nt

[RagAss]

43. One Last Thought From the OP......

I was born a Catholic, so that is the only perspective I can add to a discussion on religion. Most of you Christians know the gospels better than I do but let me try. I was taught that Jesus lost his temper only once in his life. It was when he took a bull whip to the merchants in front of the Temple. I was told it was because it disgusted him that people would sell their goods in the shadow of the Temple. The implication being that they were selling something with the approval of His Father.

Is that any different from two men selling their candidacy in the name of God?

Goodnight and Peace.

[TexasObserver]

44. If Yodeling was important to undecided voters, he'd be at a yodeling conference

And why not?

Running for office is about being interested in the things that voters are interested in.

[RagAss]

45. Tonight was just the way I pictured it when I started this thread.

[Cleita]

46. The problem with religion threads is they seem to focus on one religion.

I'm just saying.