Any religious DUers have a comparison of Obama's and McCain's answers?

[Muttocracy]

I started watching late in Obama's part but am listening to video now. I know nothing about the Bible and Christianity but it seemed that Obama did a better and more sincere job of quoting scripture and expressing his faith and feelings toward Jesus.

Would that be the impression of truly religious people watching? (not just GOP dittoheads)

[glowing]

1. Well, Evango's are normally brainwashed go with the flow.. the preacher

tells them who's side God is on and it seems to be the GOP. Real Christians like Obama's answers much better... Evango's are a cult and are a detriment to society on a whole.

[workinclasszero]

54. Their witness died when they became an arm of the republican hate machine

I'm a Christian and it always amazes me how those on the right think Jesus is a republican.

The same man who said its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than to go to heaven. Yet you see all these republican preachers on TV building their multi million dollar empires off the social security money of little old ladies.

The same Jesus who told the rich man to give away all his possessions to the the poor and follow him.

They preach out of the same book that says the love of money is the root of all evil, yet they live in mansions and flaunt their wealth.

Really their religion is base capitalism at its worst. They rob the poor and feel holy while they do it.

The Jesus in my Bible drove the money changers, good capitalists all, out of the temple with a whip.

I look forward to the TV preachers sermon on that!

[glowing]

56. Yeah... I like how he put in Warren's wealth of $25 million in book sales.

[Ichingcarpenter]

2. I had a minor in philosophy with many classes on comparisons of philosophy

and religious thought. McCain was at the bottom of his class and it shows in
almost all intellectual thought. McCain hit the hot emotional buttons, but Obama quoted scripture
and McCain didn't and can't. I'm not a religious person but highly spiritual.

[grasswire]

3. honestly, I don't think either one of them did a good job....

....on some of the questions where evangelical fundamentalists would expect certain "code" words to signal something.

Example: At no time did I hear either man say that he would consult God for daily guidance or go to the Bible for answers to moral questions. I was quite surprised about that, given the stakes with that audience.

Evangelicals would expect that a Christian would reference his/her specific daily religious ritual. Even G.W. Bush says that he reads the Bible every morning.

I gotta tell ya (as someone raised in a conservative Baptist church) the Bushies got a leg up by hiring a "code talker" to write speeches. Michael Gerson worked for Chuck Colson before he went to the Bush White House. That was a brilliant appointment, because with every Bush speech little bells would be rung in the minds of anyone who had gone to Sunday school as a child, just by inserting a few specific words. Example: "wonder-working power." In a political speech, it seems pretty bland. But it immediately invokes the phrase from an old hymn: "There is wonder-working power in the precious blood of the Lamb." Every Sunday school graduate is called to attention by the phrase. The churched will hear it as a signal of solidarity.

[Muttocracy]

4. thanks to you and other posters

those code words pretty much go in one ear and out the other for me.

I agree with your first comment, that it was actually not much about personal daily religious stuff - esp. for McCain.

[TrogL]

13. We foes of the Rabid Religious Right know the code words

If we heard them coming from Obama, we would not be pleased.

[Erin Elizabeth]

24. THIS is a great post.

Yes, exactly.

[TrogL]

46. Obama said something about "witnessing"

...that sounded a bit out of context, but I'll let him get away with it...this time.

[grasswire]

48. ah, but you were not the target audience. (eom)

[Zhade]

38. "At no time did I hear either man say that he would consult God" - thank goodness for that!

NT!

[gblady]

44. Barack, I believe, did

speak about doing God's will...
I know he has mentioned before that he prays daily.

[1Hippiechick]

51. Here is the link to the transcript of last night's Saddleback "debate"

http://www.rickwarrennews.com/transcript/

[Lucinda]

45. You're spot on about the "code" but I have to warn you...

If I wake up with that song in my head tomorrow, I may come looking for ya. :spank:

Earwigs seem to run nonstop and stay with me forever these days... :crazy: :rofl:

[Whisp]

5. sounds to me like Obama is more closely following the word of Jesus...

with the reference to taking care of the least amongst us and social justice.

McPOW is following Jesus' dads agenda - hellfire and brimstone

[1Hippiechick]

52. What a GREAT and concise summary that is spot on, IMO!

:applause: :woohoo: :yourock: :headbang:

[Bad Thoughts]

6. I'm not Christian, so I won't agree with them, but ...

I don't think I know anything more about McCain's faith other than he worships the Flag, which is somehow standing next to, or in front of the Cross. Obama takes faith seriously, and it seems to inform his answers. Unfortunately, the Rick Warren audience cares little about the specifics of faith. They want the tools to bludgeon someone on the head.

[Muttocracy]

15. that's a good image - there's a cross and a flag and somehow McCain is forgiven. nt

[Zynx]

7. McCain's answers demonstrated a lack of Christian belief.

In all seriousness, just by reading between the lines, McCain is clearly not a very religious man. Obama came off as a more religious person.

[Muttocracy]

17. that's my outsider perspective - also that McCain is not reflective and Obama is highly reflective.

[Ichingcarpenter]

21. I found Obama deeply spiritual without the jingoistic overtones.

This is a very strong statement, he didn't flinch addressing the earth or the ocean about his
ancestors.

I found this picture truly Hawaiian, respectful and powerful
to all that understand the act
after living in Hawaii for many years.

[Muttocracy]

31. thanks for that thoughtful post. nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

39. Hawaiians believe in Mana and invented the term

everything, all things on this earth be it alive or inanimate have a spiritual energy
that needs to be respected. The sacredness of the all things is consummate
to understanding growing up in Hawaii and understanding its culture.

Living in Hana on the other-side of nowhere, where kings and queens where born
gave me 10 years of Hawaiian culture that I respect and relish.

Even Christian, Buddha's agonistics, athethist, scientist know how special this place is
in the middle Pacific Ocean. All of them don't mess or mock with Hawaiian traditions.

Hawaiian blessings on construction sites are critical, if they don't happen, injuries and
accidents happen. I've seen it many times when they don't, then they call in a kahuna to make things right,

Hawaii is an extremely important place, like Stonehenge, New Mexico or others hot spots.

They are there for a reason, for living on a fault zone, volcano or other hot zone.

Yes, sometimes shit happens in Alabama, but not often.

[Muttocracy]

40. I have a friend who grew up in Hawaii and recently moved back

She wrote a book about her profession that is infused with those types of ideas. :)

[noel711]

53. As I've said before, McCain is a poser...

He mouths the fundie talking points: "I am saved..."

But he don't walk the talk:

McCain isn't baptized... thus.. it's evidence
the he don't trust the God he talked about.

Why will no one confront him with that fact?

It appalls me that the so called 'faithful'
won't hold him accountable to something they
hold so dear?

[Bad Thoughts]

8. Revising my answer

McCain was Constantine, Obama was Reinhold Niebuhr. One was a warrior who understood little of Christianity but its symbols. The other understood faith to its core. Amuricans tend to prefer the former.

[Erin Elizabeth]

9. There's always a significant difference when you are listening

to a "liberal" Christian versus a right-wing Christian (which should really be an oxymoron). When you hear a liberal Christian talk, you get a sense of humility, that they realize it's not about them, but about service to others. They advocate non-violence in every case that it's possible.

To make this answer shorter: they reflect the teachings of Jesus, both in their words AND in their actions, far better than the right wing Christian. The right wing Christian is quite strident, inflexible, judgmental (again, against the teachings of Christ), often pretty ignorant (maybe willfully) of the true teachings of Christ and loves to cherry pick Biblical verses to support their prejudices.

Christianity, to people like that, is just a suit of clothes they put on. It's external dressing and it's very painfully obvious it doesn't even go skin deep.

In my church, our minister often speaks about "radical hospitality to all others." For a long time, I saw that as just words. But then one Sunday, this group of bikers came along and were climbing the trees right next to the sanctuary. They were also sort of messing up our labrynth, moving rocks around and stuff. They had parked their motorcycles right on the grass next to the building (there's a sort of park area that belongs to the church there). Some of the women were barefoot and they looked filthy.

A woman in the congregation was bothered by this, so she got up to go out and tell them to leave the church property alone. The minister was watching all this as he was giving his sermon. He stopped his sermon, stopped the woman, and went out there to personally invite them in. They were given coffee and donuts and told they could stay if they wished, make themselves comfortable. It's a little church, but people moved down to accommodate them and they stayed.

To this day, they are some of the most faithful members of our little church. They speak of being so amazed by the reaction they got--they were used to being shooed off, fully expected it.

I was so happy that day that he was our minister. He was a great example of what we should live every day. Don't turn others away, welcome them in.

I am quite sure in one of the fundy churches, they would have been run off VERY quickly, possibly with threats of calling the police.

Sorry I got really off-track.

[POAS]

11. Not off track---right track

so much so that I printed your post and took it to my daughter to read!

Thank You

[Muttocracy]

14. I think that's a lovely story. Obama spoke about humility, McCain didn't, that's for sure. nt

[TrogL]

18. That truly follows the teachings of Jesus Christ

The behaviour of most people calling themselves "Christian" make me refuse to use the label. At best, I'll call myself "follower of Christ".

[Erin Elizabeth]

19. That's ok.

I do that, too, sometimes. I can't blame you for it.

[AuntPatsy]

20. If more ministers were like yours I would have no problem going to church...

I liked your story, thank you.

[Erin Elizabeth]

22. He is truly wonderful, but he wouldn't want me

saying so. Nor would he want credit for doing what he did.

Apparently he also got some complaints from a few members about letting those "mangy" people in the church and the next Sunday he erm, read the congregation the riot act about that (bad phrase for me to pick, huh? LOL). Said basically if you can't handle it you need to find a church where they would turn people like that away. And they were there (the bikers) that Sunday, too. I think only a few people had dry eyes.

He refuses to lock the dadgummed building, because he wants it to be available should someone need to get cover from bad weather or just need somewhere to sit down and rest, etc (it's in a rough part of town). As a result, we've had many things stolen, but it seems to have stopped now.

He's an Obama supporter, btw. I saw the bumper sticker on his car, LOL.

[Muttocracy]

30. maybe the bikers can provide security ;)

[Erin Elizabeth]

60. LOL! Well they do live nearby and have become quite

fiercely protective of the church. Hmmm.

[AuntPatsy]

32. do you know I seriously had pretty much given up hope in that a religious

leader would practice what he preached...yours gives me hope and to be honest a bit of faith back that these past eight years had nearly vanished...

I recall when I was younger how the churches never had their doors closed and night or day you could enter its halls and find a comfort you just can no longer find..it really gives me a warm feeling as corny as that sounds to know such still exists if even in one church...

Thank your minister for me, that one post has helped my faith somewhat in not only religion but people as well...

[Erin Elizabeth]

62. Aw, hey, that's cool!

And I live in Texas, too. LOL. I do think people like him are unfortunately pretty rare. But he gives me hope, too. Thank you.

[Heather MC]

10. I believe Obama is More understanding of God's LOVE

The Bible says God gave his only son so that all will be saved
there was never a division made of Who Jesus came to die for. he died for ALL
McCain's "black and white" appoarch for only to pander to the audience in that room
his views are not a reflection of ALL


Obama though he admitted he struggled with the issues personally Also understood that it would not Benefit ALL of have "black and white" answers.

McCain was very Scary and the M$M except for Roland Martin are equally as scary tonight
Trying to convence people that giving simple yes or no answers is better that thought intelligent answers
DON'T DRINK THE COOL AID

[FrenchieCat]

12. Obama is a believer, McCain likes to tell war stories.

That is it in a nutshell.

[Muttocracy]

16. thanks to everyone for their thoughts - this is educational for me. Another detail ?

Obama mentioned Jesus having died for his sins etc. etc. but I don't remember him using the term "forgiven".

I remember McCain mentioned being forgiven, probably after Jesus died for his sins etc. etc.

Did anyone else pick up on that? I'm curious but really can't bear listening to McCain again!

[Erin Elizabeth]

23. Well, it's implicit when you say that Jesus died for our sins

that a big part of that means that you are forgiven because of the sacrifice He made. So it was understood. Just a different way of phrasing the same thing.

[Muttocracy]

26. thanks for translating for me :)

[TrogL]

25. They're into some interesting theological territory

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. - 1 John 4:10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propitiation

It's not simple forgiveness. McCain is on shaky ground. Obama may know enough not to get started.

[Erin Elizabeth]

27. That's a great point.

I hadn't thought about that. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama simply didn't want to get sucked into a theological hair-splitting thing. I have never seen "propitiation" in that verse. Learn something new every day!

[TrogL]

59. That's 'cause fundies don't use that verse

...because it clashes with their views.

They're happier with John 3:16 ...

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (http://bible.cc/john/3-16.htm - note this link does NOT have the NRSV, interesting)(http://biblos.com/john/3-16.htm - greek)

...which completely avoids the issue.

[Erin Elizabeth]

61. That last thing you said completely intrigued me...

I'm hoping you see this---what does that mean "which completely avoids the issue?" I always like hearing different interpretations.

[Muttocracy]

28. Huh. But I wonder how many people even know that verse

I'm thinking of hearing Susan Jacoby (sp?) recently about how few "religious" people who want "creationism" taught in school can identify Genesis as the 1st book of the bible.

I imagine more people have just heard Jesus died = my forgiveness ?

[grantcart]

29. as somone who lived in that community and was trained at a seminary

I can tell you that the two have completely different uses of theology as a part of their metaphysical apparatus.


For Obama it is clear from his answers and his books that he uses the traditions of the Christian faith as a reliable guide to raise questions.

For McCain it is clear that he uses it as a device to eliminate the need for troublesome questions and has a checklist approach.
I believe this this and this.


The difference can be understood very simply by understanding the two words 'subject' and 'object'.


For Obama his faith is the subject of the sentence and it is interactive. It requires a verb and place to go. When he discusses it he discusses it with another person, in this case Warren, as to subjects share their faith.

For McCain it is an object. It is something that you pick up and do something to, like memorize. It doesn't compel you to think more deeply about your situation or the larger world. It doesn't compel you to look at yourself. He has had enough exposure that he can learn the words and in a time of stress those words give him comfort.

The most revealling example of this was on the question of greatest moral failure. Obama responded that when he was in high school he abused drugs and drinking - (had he stopped there it would have meant that he was thinking of it in terms of an object - very superficially) but he said that was just a symptom of a larger spiritual failing - he had made himself the center of the universe and had endulged in self pity, a very thoughtful and useful examination.

McCain brought out all of his experiences as a POW as being transformative religious experience for him. The problem is that immediately after getting out of the POW camp he commits the worse moral failing of his life - so you have to ask really how transformative was that experience (remember the Private Ryan, the dad who at the begining of the movie comes out and it is revealed that he left the battlefield and lifted his moral life to be a great dad and great family man?)

Just because people are religious or evangelicals doesn't mean that they are stupid or fail to look under the hood. They are especially wary of politicians who try to push their buttons. People that have been trained theologically well will be very sceptical of both candidates in this setting but are going to be more inclined to see that for Obama his faith is something that he uses as a way of thinking about himself and what is happening in the world.

Now pass the plate.

[Muttocracy]

34. thanks for your thoughts.

Regious talk in general from politicans tends to bother me. It doesn't with Obama (or how Biden discussed his faith when I read about it now that I think about it) - maybe because of the flavor of it - humility, self-reflection, helping others - what to me are the commonly held good aspects of the major religions. I think Biden talked about the greatest sin being abuse of power in its various forms and I thought, OK, I come at that from a different direction, but it makes sense.

This reminds me to look up the place where they were interviewed about faith - it was Christian Science Monitor or some other publication long ago.

[grantcart]

36. yes and how appropriate that after my reply grovelbot came on cue

to pass the plate lol

[Muttocracy]

37. Grovelbot is omniscient! ;)

[grantcart]

41. yeah but he drove the crowd away and killed the thread

[Muttocracy]

42. Grovelbot is an angry vengeful god. Oh well, I learned a lot here. nt

[Muttocracy]

35. found those CS Monitor interviews from last fall (pre-Rev. Wright blowup)

Obama
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0716/p01s01-uspo.html

McCain
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1018/p01s06-uspo.html

[dkf]

43. Nice summarization. It shows completely different world views about

the role of religion in their lives.

Thanks.

[grantcart]

63. your welcome

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our third quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[Indiana_Dem]

47. Yes, you are right. Obama DID do a better job.

He answered more candidly from a faithful perspective. McCain gave his usual political talking points to score points. Not sure if the average joe will see it that way but that's my perspective.

[AllentownJake]

49. I was an Evangelical for 5 years and have read Warren's book

I'm no longer an evangelical because my political views are no longer accepted in that community (Always been pro-choice and pro-gay rights). I also feel the church has become a tool of the right so I no longer will affiliate with it and have come to believe you can make the Bible support any argument you want at any given time.

However, Obama was more in line with Rick Warren's non-partisan preaching than McCain. I'm not talking about individual issues but Obama's view of the relationship of Man and God was more Rick Warren than McCain's view.

The we need to defeat evil portion of the forum was the most damning on McCain. McCain's instant pointing to Al Quaeda and not mentioning of other forms of evil that exist in our own country exposed McCain's narrow world view. His idea that you can defeat evil by dismantling one network of evil people shows his foolishnes.

[tannybogus]

50. I believe McCain is Old Testament, and Obama is New Testament

I know McCain talks about Jesus this and that. However to me, the RW has always been much more militant and vengeful.

I'm sure they love all the laws in Leviticus. They'd just like to rewrite a few to fit their platform. When a lot of those

"Christians" start spouting off, I wonder if they really do believe in anything Jesus said. They babble on about being saved and

born again. Looks like stillbirth to me.

[Muttocracy]

57. bumper sticker I love: "Born Right the First Time" nt

[hedgehog]

55. McCain's answers were all about being a Christian while

Obama's answers were all about being Christian. The difference between talking the talk and walking the walk.

[Muttocracy]

58. yeah, very different approaches to the evil question. nt