We need to get past this swift boat crap NOW and move the hell on

[Blue_Roses]

this issue is like beating a dead horse. I see it dragging us through the mud, detouring us from what we really should be focusing on like: jobs, healthcare, education, security (or lack of it). Rove will do ANYTHING to keep us "off message" and it's working to their favor so far. I don't give a rats ass who was on what boat in the Mekong delta nor do I give a rats ass who was fired at first:eyes: It really DOESN'T MATTER ANYMORE. It really doesn't. These guys are ALWAYS gonna hate Kerry and Bob Perry will always find a way to fund the republicans to do Bush's dirty work.

Do you think a mom who stays up all night with her sick child, cares who was on what swift boat. Hell no! She's worried that she will not be able to have affordable health care for her child and family. She's worried that education will not be properly funded by cutting programs that benefit her child like after school programs. She's worried that her child may be drafted to go to an illegal war. She's worried that her elderly parents, who depend on medicare and social security will lose their benefits to privatization. She's worried that the freedom of choice will be taken away and back alley abortions will no longer be obsolete. She's worried that her spouse will lose his job to outsourcing and lack of productivity. She's worried about a foreclosure on her house. The "worried list" goes on and on and it affects each and everyone of us in one way or another.

Bush isn't worried about these things, but WE are. Kerry needs to get back on message now.

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. most of the people who will decide the outcome of this election

won't make up their minds until the last week of the campaign.

Plus, I think the election still hinges on a number of unforseen factors, many of which will probably show themselves in late September and October.

By then we will have all forgotten about this moment in the campaign.

[jonnyblitz]

19. as a vet i will NEVER forget this moment..

EVER! :hi:

[cheezus]

2. No! The Swift boat smear must stay alive through the convention

We can get back to the issues when we're at a point where BOTH sides of the issues can be discussed. Kerry is smart to continue making this backfire on Bush during the convention, where the republicans want to frame the debate. It's already framed, and it's about why Bush is hiding behind the smear vets when during nam he was too coked up to show up to fly.

[alcuno]

4. Absolutely. The RNC convention would drown out any mesage now.

Let the convention goers get asked about it all week long.

[Blue_Roses]

15. while I agree

the *boring* message of unemployment, healthcare, and education,:eyes: would be drowned out during the convention, it still needs to be discussed

[BurtWorm]

3. We will.

The Republicans are going to get sick of it even sooner than we do. The original plan to smear Kerry by exploiting vets and the Vietnam war backfired.

[Spinzonner]

5. yes, it can't be allowed to exclude the important issues

but Bush has to be made to wear his refusal to condemn what have been proven to be lies made by demonstrated liars, number one being O'Neil.

This is to be a made an issue of his moral leadership and his 'parsing' of statement to avoid making a criticism of the group.

This is not merely to refute the allegations and make Bush responsible for his failure to disavow them, but to immunize against any further accusations made by this group and put Bush on the spot to reject them.

[fishnfla]

6. i'm ready to hear about the issues of today, not 30 years ago

but the media doesnt like that "boring" stuff

[Blue_Roses]

9. EXACTLY ! You said it!

It's like that Don Henley song, "diry laundry"...so true. People don't care about issues until they bite them in the ass.

[Cocoa]

7. not yet

the backlash hasn't happened yet. But it will, despite Bush and the media's desperate efforts.

[Rabelais]

8. What could be more important than Vietnam?

}(

[Blue_Roses]

10. 30+ years ago I might have agreed

but now we have a NEW Vietnam going on and it's called Iraq:argh:

[Karenina]

18. And that really is the point.

Same shit different day. Thousands and thousands of posts are in the archives about comparisons between what happened during the the Third Reich and present day Amerikkka. In large measure folks STILL don't get it as it HAPPENS AGAIN right under their noses. Direct connexions between the nazis and the *slime stinking up the White House are easily established. Operation Paperclip, anyone?

Iraq is Viet Nam ALL OVER AGAIN. The lies, deceit, death and destruction are HAPPENING AGAIN, while folks STILL FAIL to make the connexion. Vets "mad at Kerry" for stating the truth... Meanwhile, James Darby is IN HIDING, supposedly for his own protection, because he blew the whistle on prison torture in Iraq. IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Why would anyone want to back off now?

Kerry had been talking about the issues for over a year now. The media hardly pays attention.

Now we've got not only their attention, but we've got them on the run. You don't back off, when you're finally starting to win.

We can get back to the issues next week.

[Blue_Roses]

13. goes to show

the media just like good drama:eyes: who cares about unemployment, foreclosure, and bankruptcy...geezzzzeee:eyes;

[Karenina]

20. It shows that Americans

have been horribly dumbed down, sucking on the electonic teat, to the point that they seem unable to hold the media accountable. The airwaves have been stolen and are being used to do GREAT IRREPARABLE HARM to you, your families, your communities and the nation itself.

[KurtNYC]

12. But this is the message: "Fire the Liar"

This is the part where Bush says "i have no connection to those people" and yet he does! Why would we let this go NOW??

Bush dumped a lawyer yesterday who was working for his campaign and the SBLB group. There are more connections being documented every hour. The more they squirm now the more Bush and Rove look like liars.

Further - as long as these ads are running we need to respond effectively. That seems like a given.

[Blue_Roses]

14. bush has looked like a liar for 3+ f*******

years now. One lie in specific that comes to mind:no WMD. This lie actually affected people in present day time:eyes:

It's like a dog with a bone.

[Jacobin]

16. Bush's record for the last 3 years is the disaster that needs to be

discussed.

I'm sure Rove is tickled that this swifty thing is staying in the news. His base doesn't care if they lied or not. The undecideds in the middle will just see the smears, listen for fifteen seconds to the explanations and figure that there is a "difference of opinion" on Kerry's combat service, and Dems wouldn't vote for Bush if their lives depended on it.

All the valiant efforts to discredit the swifties are lots of fun, and may make Kerry's supporters happy, but that is not where the battle is.

We need hard hitting ads smearing Bush, which is sooo fucking easy its not funny. NOTHING has to be made up. He actually is an incompetent fool and buffoon.

It seems that Dems just don't have the heart to do what is necessary to beat these fascists. Hope they start changing tactics soon as the election is almost upon us

[Blue_Roses]

17. I have to say

I agree. Rove is a nasty little fat guy who THRIVES on dirt to smear all over his opponent--even if that "so-called" dirt is a heap of lies. He did it with Ann Richards when she ran against Bush for governor and he continues to do it now. Go to "heart" of this shit--Rove.

[fishnfla]

21. Did you see the latest figures on povery and uninsured in the USA?

40 mill living in poverty
45 mill without health insurance

These are issues right here, right now affecting real americans today. We cant even end the VN war, so I guess those folks are caught in its crossfire.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

22. I have to agree with your overall point. While I think it necessary to

debunk and refute every idiot ass Swiftie "allegation" to show what a pathetic and transparent group of smearing liars they are, I feel to some degree this should be confined to surrogates and at a "low burner" level.

To the extent that we not just engage, but MAKE A BIG DEAL out of each of these points, WHETHER OR NOT WE "WIN" or are right, I do feel like we are playing Rove's game, stuck in his tar baby. I have the feeling it's kind of lose-lose for us and while not abandoning the debunking, we should move on and make our primary message about the pressing issues of the day. Iraq War. Overtime benefits lost. Jobs lost. Torture. Loss of freedom. You know, stuff like that.