This was never about the Swift Boats, it was about destroying MoveOn

[trumad]

and their ability to run ad's against Bush. Brilliant!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. it was about destroying MoveOn

How very "Rovish" of you.... good catch.

[AlCzervik]

2. i agree and if * can get the FEC to act soon

than Kerry will run out of money leaving Dim-son with time and money for a big ad blitz in the fall.

[Joanne98]

3. That's what i said the very first day.........

I just hope moveon STAYS THE COURSE.......

[Langis]

4. Moveon's newest ads are run from it's PAC

It's PAC is not a 527, they can't do a damn thing.

[Bongo Prophet]

16. Right on

Won't people be surprised?

Bush thought the legishlashion he shigned would put them shadowy organizashions out of bidness for good.

[VolcanoJen]

27. You know we're going to have to educate CNN on this issue.

Miles O'Brien and Leslie Blitzer are going to go ballistic when they see the new MoveOn PAC ad campaign, "10 Weeks."

I can hear them now, calling upon the "shadowy" "527" to stop their ads. We're going to have to school CNN on the "PACs are NOT 527s" issue over, and over, and over, and over, and over, especially during the Republican LuvFest they've got in store for us next week.

[artslave43]

5. Just got this from MoveOn

Pete Coors' campaign (R-CO) said that being compared to John Kerry was worse than being compared to the Ku Klux Klan. Watch our new web video featuring more outrageous right-wing quotes and help Coors' opponent Ken Salazar win back the U.S. Senate today.


<https://www.moveonpac.org/give/04endorsed.html?id=3401-1305223-JHUYh4x_vbzOyxVps82TKw>https://www.moveonpac.org/give/04endorsed.html

Our video is comprised of actual quotes from Republican candidates and office holders, highlighting the truly extreme, hate-filled views of many of the Republican party's top officials and current candidates for public office. It's short, and definitely worth watching. Check it out at the link above.

[Julien Sorel]

6. I disagree.

No one could predict what was going to happen before these hoaxers got started. A lot of this is butterfly effect stuff, it isn't like a game of checkers where you can calculate moves in advance with any degree of reliability: "We're going to start a group so egregious, so dishonest and scurrilous, that after its charges take off, people will be so disgusted they will want to eliminate all 527s."

Of course, no one knew beforehand that these honorless charlatans would catch on, and no one knows now what effect this whole thing will have on the 527s. One way or another, there's a huge place for an organization like Moveon in this country, and I don't see anyone eliminating that place.

[depakid]

9. no one knew beforehand?

I beg to differ. A LOT of people forsaw the danger that the Swift Boat Liars represented- and warned against it. Maybe some inside the Kerry camp did too- just not the decision makers at the top.

It was also eminently foreseeable that the controversy would be used as a vehicle to attack the 527's. The Republicans have been scheming about how to suppress moveon and the media fund for a long time- and it's naive to think that their strategists hadn't seriously considered this angle. Hell, this kind of thing has been their modus operandi for over 30 years!

[Julien Sorel]

12. No one knew beforehand.

There's no way to predict what ads will and will not take off. If there were, every ad campaign (commercial as well as political) would be a winner. Yet most turn out to be duds. Lots of people warn about everything, someone is going to be right sometimes. The campaign has to make its best judgment based on a lot of considerations people on a message board don't have.

As I continue to point out, the Kerry campaign brushed off the Alexandra Polier "scandal," which lots of people predicted would sink his primary campaign, with hardly an effort. How was anyone to know this thing, which has less fire to the smoke than that one did, would turn out to be different? Where are all the people who were predicting Polier would sink Kerry? Still at it, their error forgotten. Or explained away. Of course, had Kerry turned on the full court press over that it might have caused it to mushroom, and what turned out to be nothing could easily have become a scandal.

Life's so easy for us armchair strategists. All our bad calls are forgotten -- especially by us -- while those times we get it right, we remember for eternity, and use to comfort ourselves that we, and not some spineless, pink tu-tu wearing political hack, are the real smart guys.

[depakid]

18. There's no way to predict what ads will and will not take off?

sure there is. There are entire fields of study devoted to understanding just that. Like any social science, it's subject to exigencies- it's imprecise, but believe me, corporate America doesn't pay big bucks to advetisering and marketing firms based on a flip of the coin.

I agree that life is easier for armchair analysts- but some of us have done this in the real world too and/or studied and wrote about it in academia. I also agree that some ads don't take off despite what apears on the surface to be a well thought out plan based on meticulous research and analysis.

However, this particular instance (the swift boats) had all of the hallmarks of the classic Republican smear- ala Willie Horton. It plants an image in its target audience's mind and creates doubt and controversy that itself overshadows the issues. In my opinion, this one really was a no brainer. Why Kerry's strategists didn't see what would probably be coming- or how or why Kerry chose to play it the way he did, none of us can say.

[Julien Sorel]

20. I have a career suggestion for you.

"There's no way to predict what ads will and will not take off?"
sure there is.

Go into advertising/public relations. You'll be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams in no time at all. Because there are a whole lot of smart, highly educated people who work in that field producing ad campaigns -- and the vast majority of those campaigns are failures.

Why Kerry's strategists didn't see what would probably be coming- or how or why Kerry chose to play it the way he did, none of us can say.

Oh, but lots of us will say. Lots and lots of us already have. It's because they are spineless, lack the guts to stand up to the Republicans, are naively trying to take "the high road," or are insistant upon running a "Dukakis-style campaign" (which implies they are stupid, and comes from people who obviously know little about Dukakis or his campaign).

All this, of course, assumes the Swift Hoax has worked, an assumption for which I have yet to see any evidence.

[depakid]

21. don't really need any career suggestions...

got that angle covered- and I'm not particularly interested in posting my curricula vitae- but it is nice to see that you've read my posts. :-)

Maybe there's person or two here who do know the dynamics going on inside the Kerry campaign. I don't pretend to. But I have some knowledge in the field (I might even know a little about what went on the Dukakis campaign), which is what I base my posts on. And yes, I have indeed been quite critical of the campaign's tactics up and until the last several days- for very valid and historically accurate reasons.

As far as evidence that the swift boat ads (and perhaps some of the other attack ads) have damaged the campaign, I think you can see that reflected in some of the poll numbers. Now, I take all media polls with a huge grain of salt- even so, their numbers are consistent in terms of a trend compared to July with respect to questions relating to his Vietnam experience, his honesty and his fitness to serve as commander in chief. Since we don't have access to the internals, that's the best evidence we have- consistency and trends.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Got a question

the Swift Liars ads are pure bunk filled with lies. The MoveOn ads that I have seen have merely told the truth or have presented the opinions of ordinary Americans. So how are the SB Liars ads the same as the MoveOn ads? Don't see that they are alike at all.

[janx]

10. Exactly. To claim that they are alike is to commit one very large

logical fallacy. But the right wing will continue to do so because they hate moveon and want to eliminate it.

The two organizations are so completely different that the only thing they share is their 527 classification.

[Zookeeper]

26. Yes, the SBVT ads are slander.

The MoveOn ads "attack" BushCo on the issues and their four-year record of mismanagement.

It's pretty obvious to most of us, but why would the Repubs and Freepers want to acknowledge it?

This is an excuse to shut down 527s since they offer the Dems an advantage.

[peacetalksforall]

8. I wish someone with knowhow would compile a side-by-side

comparison of the * vs Kerry ads so that it could be super clear for ourselves and to use as ammunition.

Are there a minimum of six sources of ads with different rules and are they as confusing to everyone else as they are for me. Are there any experts in regulations and boundaries and what exactly is against the law.

Kerry-Edwards vs Bush-Cheney?
DNC vs RNC?
Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth?
Move-On?

I observed the birth and growth of Move-On since 1997 (?) which was way before Kerry. I think I observed the birth of anti-Bush Cheney ads before Kerry was nominated resulting from a contest. I don't believe there are any lawyers or advisors doing working for more than one entity (?).

I think the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth gave birth since Kerry came out on top as a candidate (?). Or has it been organized against Kerry for years?

What laws pertain to all of them?

Couldn't it be graphed so that a person could read across a table?

The list could also contain a list of lies with names, plus names of people who resigned positions because of conflights and the degree of disregard for the law by the others involved.

As each day goes by it becomes more and more confusing - just the way the right wing * throwers want it.

[Lefty48197]

11. You're right

This reminds me of how they tried to destroy the Independent Counsel Statute. Completely rape the ideal and then use the crime as an excuse to shut down the office.

[George_Bonanza]

13. MoveOn doesn't lie, SBVT does... Black and white

The much maligned Hitler ad by MoveOn was just two in a sea (1500 in total) of ads submitted by contestants. It was never meant to be played in mainstream media, yet Kerry did the right thing in denouncing it anyway. SBVT, however, fucking lies on every mainstream media channel out there, buoyed by fanatic Bush moneypushers. The RNC really counts on the voters' stupidity.

[Bongo Prophet]

14. Could it be both? Rather than either/or...

any good strategy considers moves ahead and ramifications of consequences.
This doesn't apply to Iraq, of course...:evilgrin:

Warning: sports analogies ahead.

Karl Rove bank shot. This is an apt description of his kung fu.
Bugging an office, then accusing opponent of doing it.
More examples than I care to list.

Attacking Clintons for years, Indy prosecutor, character....then outrage fatigue.
"We need to move beyond..."

Totally demean Carter, then...
Don't criticize Reagan Bush, honor the president. He told them to tear down the wall, and they did!....
Then Clinton---murderer,rapist!
Bush the sequel....Either love Him or with terrishts...
and on and on.

Heck, even in checkers there is more than one level of strategy.
They destroy and profit, and pick up bonus points as well.
Then Dems are left to clean up and...actually GOVERN.

[EST]

29. Add the final indignity---

The recipients of this ad war largesse is the big-business owned big media which of course represents the tiny chunk of change I contribute going right to the same nasty bunch trying to give me history's biggest fuckin'. I pay the horrors from hell to destroy me and all I hold dear. Go figure...

forgive spelling-getting tired/edit

[Bongo Prophet]

31. Hey, that's right!

Insert bad gang rape analogy here.
And we have to pay them to try to undo the damage.
Ugh. I feel my first puke smiley coming on.

:puke:

[janx]

15. It's about both. A reckless smear attempt against Kerry with

the added bonus of trying to eliminate "all 527s"--i.e., MoveOn.

As long as 527s have to disclose their donors (which I think they should have to do at the outset rather than later), I see no harm in them.

The problems occur when a 527 is allowed to do its dirty work and *later* disclose its founders/supporters, etc.

The Swift Boat guys for Bush* put theirs together very sloppily and tried to hide the ties with the Bush* campaign; that's why so many Bush* campaign operatives are being exposed so easily.

[janx]

17. WAIT--Is Dean's Democracy for America a 527? And didn't DFA

recently partner with another organization--is that one a 527?

[madfloridian]

28. DFA is a PAC

.

[janx]

32. That is what I understood--Bush* must be doing anything to eliminate

the 527s.

[baldguy]

19. Bingo

[Pepperbelly]

22. didn't work ...did you get a load of the new MOVEON ads coming out?

They are positively inspired and done with topnotch talent.

[michigandem2]

23. right right right right...

it is all about silencing *'s critics...we can't have the truth out there for christs sake...

its a ploy...and this is his excuse...but he has NEVER denounced the content and lies that CLEARLY exist in THESE ads...which means actions speak louder than words...

[NightOwwl]

24. Didn't moveon get threatened with legal action before...

and it never went anywhere?

Hmmm, maybe it was all just a dream.

[OHswingvoter]

25. But isn't Kerry

playing chess while we are playing checkers? I know that a week ago people were saying that we were going to see the BIG guns come out soon. Maybe I should not be panicking. Odviously, Kerry must have a grand scheme that is several steps ahead of the Rovian Scheme? I can hardly wait to see what he does next. I hope that we destry those republicans. How could this have gone against us so quickly? Yesterday everything seemed grand after the Crawford visit? It is like Bush/Rove was prepared for all kerry's moves and that really scares me.

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. That was just a side benefit

In a few weeks the 527's time will run out any way. They've already served their purpose for both sides.

The Main Benefit of this Swift Boat brouhaha is getting dems to attack veterans. Just read some of the threads on DU tonight, all the name calling (of which I am guilty) and badgering that we've been doing. Trying to dig up dirt about them. Rove is laughing his ass off, cause he is going to use all the bad things we are saying about these guys against Kerry.

When we argue this issue that we keep the focus on Bu$h and Rove, they are the real bad guys in the story. The others are just tools, to be discarded and forgotten by Rove after the election.