I don't understand how you can rationally not like Obama

[SteelPenguin]

Unless you're racist, or some sort of ignorant islamophobe who thinks he's a manchurian candidate in league with Bin Laden, ie irrational....I just don't see how you can't like Obama and his family. Sure you might disagree with his policy choices (I know I'm not lockstep with all of them) but they're just a nice, loving, real family. Michelle is a super-mom, the kids are just totally adorable, and Barack also seems like a really friendly, real person.

I know that's the image they're trying to sell, but sometimes when people are trying to sell you something, they actually match the description.

Honestly at this point, I'm willing to argue with people about policy prescriptions for what this country needs to solve it's economic, health care, foreign policy and other problems. If people want to smear any of the Obama's at this point though, I'm going to immediately consider them a totally irrational individual.

[HEyHEY]

1. A penguins fan would say that

:eyes:

[SteelPenguin]

7. Say What?

Say that they seem like a really nice and real family and that criticising them on personal grounds and not policy ones just doesn't make sense to me?

[HEyHEY]

46. You'd think a rational person would have a sense of humour

I was kidding ;-)

[SteelPenguin]

47. I think I got defensive

I'm still smarting from the finals.

[Bassic]

55. Hehe

Never take a hockey joke seriously with us Canadian folks. :)

[Marrah_G]

2. Not everyone sees things the way you do

Not everyone who doesn't share your opinion is a "racist, or some sort of ignorant islamophobe".

I find statements like yours to be extremely unsettling, un- Democratic and really quite bullying.

Statements like your drive a wedge between those who LOVE Obama and those who are voting for him because he is the Democratic Nominee, but may not think he is all that.

Statements like yours seek to put yourself in a somehow superior position then anyone who doesn't agree with you.

It's wrong. It's ignorant. And as a Democrat I find it offensive.

[lligrd]

4. Not "All That" ???

That is your criticism of him?

[Marrah_G]

23. Have you liked every single candidate you have ever voted for?

[SteelPenguin]

5. you think they're bad people?

You think that they're fake? That the kids are scripted?

You can not like all his positions, but how can you look at them as a family and think there is something wrong with them?

[Marrah_G]

25. Where do you get any of that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

[SteelPenguin]

26. then stop putting words in mine

[TheWraith]

6. No, it's people belittleing and attacking Obama that are driving a wedge.

We've got a truly great nominee. It's a pity not everyone can appreciate that.

[Marrah_G]

27. I have NEVER attacked Obama. Not once.

[redstate_democrat]

9. I don't think Hillary or Bill are "all that". Actually, they're just Democrats in my opinion.

:eyes:

[Marrah_G]

22. I agree with you and I don't call you names because of your opinion

[redstate_democrat]

31. Thanks for not calling me names!

:hug:

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[romulusnr]

49. and yet

you completely failed to explain what you see different or why. Thanks for that.

[Marrah_G]

62. because he is our nominee

Ask me AFTER November what I don't like about him.

[sandnsea]

58. I like the personalities of Bill & HIllary

So I completely understand what you're saying. They're wonderful people and if people don't like them I think they have a screw loose. Disagreeing with their policies is a completely different matter. Bill & Hillary drive me crazy because of the triangulating, not anything about their personalities.

[Marrah_G]

63. Yup- it's nutty to think everyone is going to like every candidate.

I frickin loved Kerry, yet many Dems did not. I accept that as part of politics and the right of every citizen to have their own opinions.

Argggggg.......... I am soooooooo pissed right now.

[sandnsea]

69. And that was screwy too

People who bought into manufactured hype instead of paying attention to the person.

[liberaldem4ever]

80. I was a big Dean fan in 04

And I was terribly pissed off and disappointed when he wasn't the nominee. And I wasn't a Kerry fan-really kind of didn't like him in the least. But when Kerry got the Dem nom I really found lots of great things to like about him and Teresa too.

[Duncan]

75. Huh!?

Did you read the OP? It ain't at all what you are implying it is.
OP even says Barak is not an ideal candidate.
You seem to be driving a wedge here, not OP.

[Marrah_G]

76. His post was pretty clear

[LostinVA]

3. Ugh

[SteelPenguin]

8. What Ugh?

Putting policy positions aside, you don't like them? Why? Everything I've seen of them just makes them look like an amazing loving great family.

I'm shocked by the initial responses to my post honestly.

[LostinVA]

10. Really? You called everyone who doesn't like Senator Obama

either stupid or a racist. I don't care for him, and haven't for years. However, that doesn't translate into my being: racist, stupid, or someone who will vote McCain.

You should apologize for your post. Many on DU don't like him, even though they're voting for him. And I sincerely doubt the reason they don't like him is because they are racists.

[SteelPenguin]

14. Why don't you like him

I'm not going to apologize for saying I just don't understand why people don't. They seem totally genuine and nice to me, and the only people I've talked to who don't see that never really can tell me why they don't, at least rationally.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. That's okay. I've always thought that Bill and Hillary were a pair of scummy weasels

Always have, always will. Though I'd vote for either in a heartbeat over their Republican alternatives.

You're free to love Hillary, just as I'm not. And not everyone who doesn't like her is sexist.

[qwlauren35]

83. For "years"?

When did you start disliking him? I'm just curious.

[Marrah_G]

29. Prepare to be attacked

[Forkboy]

12. You answer your own question, but then try to disregard that as an answer.

Sure you might disagree with his policy choices

Maybe that's reason enough, and it doesn't make one racist or an islamophobe. :shrug:

[SteelPenguin]

15. That's totally reason enough

I'm not talking about policy though. I'm talking about personal attacks.

If you don't like his policy choices, then that is 100% of a reason to not support him. It's the bullshit I've heard since last night about the kids seeming coached and fake, and crap about Michelle's speech.

I myself said that I don't agree with all his policy choices. I'm talking about people calling them a fake family, or deriding them on a personal level, etc.

[Forkboy]

33. If people are basing their dislike on superficial issues, then yes, it doesn't make sense.

[SteelPenguin]

36. That's all I"m talking about

If you don't like his positions on X, Y, and Z then by all means vote for him while holding your nose. All I'm talking about is them as a familial unit on a personal level. I love watching them interact, because they just come across so loving and real. I had no idea it was not a universal feeling amongst democrats.

[Forkboy]

39. I don't get how anyone could attack him on a family level.

Their family dynamic is awesome to see, imo. They seem to genuinely enjoy each other, and don't seem like their just being paraded out for photo op purposes. :)

[SteelPenguin]

41. Exactly

That's all I'm saying.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. Try reading the OP. It was pretty clear to me that policy differences are justified.

Why so defensive? :shrug:

[Forkboy]

30. Let me guess, now you think I'm a PUMA too.

:rofl:

[Marrah_G]

34. Welcome to my world Forkboy

Sometimes this place is so fucking hurtful that I just want to quit politics. Then I go out and I work on a local campaign and I realize..........most of these assholes are clueless and juvenile. They use the internet to feel powerful, because in the real world.......they are NOTHING.

[Forkboy]

50. Not worth feeling hurt over.

People like that will never have that kind of control over me. It only hurts when it comes from someone I like, so in this thread problem solved. :)

I actually find that kind of simplistic, binary thinking to be pretty amusing. I always wonder what kind of personal relationships they have with such black and white thinking. How do they manage a relationship with anyone who doesn't think 100% the way they do if the opinion of random strangers is hard to fathom?

[Marrah_G]

66. But it does hurt- being accused of being a traitor hurts.

Maybe not to you, but to me it does. The best remedy to forgetting the hurt is to go out and work locally on a campaign. Then you are reminded of why we do what we do and how terrific those Dems around you really are.

[babylonsister]

70. "most of these assholes are clueless and juvenile."

Why don't you leave if you don't like the company? :shrug:

[Lilith Velkor]

77. Case in point.

[leftynyc]

71. Please don't let anonymous people

on a political board get you down. Do what you do - get out in the real world. The majority of the people who post are fine, some are assholes and some are trolls. Such is life.

[Marrah_G]

72. Yup- you are right

And like I said- it just takes getting out there among local Dems to return my sanity and remind me that most Dems are not like the poster above you.

[leftynyc]

78. Most Dems are not like DU

While I can fight as a partisan with the best of them and am considered a liberal everywhere else in the universe, here I'm a centrist - and I'm fine with that. Takes all kinds.

[Balderdash]

13. I am really starting

to believe that some supposed Obama supporters are really just Republicans in Democrat clothing trying to sew descent. Why else post twaddle like this?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. You seem concerned about it.

[SteelPenguin]

21. Seriously?

Look, if you want to think the Obama's are slimy, and their kids are fake and scripted I guess I can't stop you, I've just never seen a rational reason for people to not like them personally. Policywise sure, just not personally.

It's twaddle to say that we shouldn't accept personal attacks on our candidate and his family?

[SteelPenguin]

18. Is this the right board? Is this DU?

Is saying that on a personal level the Obama's seem like a genuinely nice family and that it's wrong to smear them personally somehow outside the bounds of this site? It's ok to call the kids fake or scripted? It's ok to say negative things about Obama's relationship with his wife or children?

Seriously I'm at a loss at the responses...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

20. Some people can't get over the primaries and use concern trolling as a way to cope.

Pay them no mind.

[Balderdash]

28. You're not helping

our candidate or you pal here by attacking other Democrats.

[Balderdash]

24. You really are thick then...

I am supporting Obama and before that I supported Hillary. I don't like a lot Obama's
policies and prefer Hillarys. I am not a racist or an Islamofasist or whatever
other nasty name you want to call people. I'll be voting for Obama because he is
the Democratic nominee. It's people like you who don't read the shit that they
type and then won't take responsibility for it.

[damonm]

42. Interesting...

I never saw a dime's worth of policy difference between Obama & Clinton, save on health care. How you can DISlike Obama on policy while liking Clinton when they were all but identical?

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. It's not where they stand, but how they got there.

She's DLC - he rejected the DLC. She got to her stands coming from center-right - he got to the same place coming from center-left.

[Balderdash]

57. Because they're not identical

and the health care issue is a top priority for me. Hillary is a pure
policy wonk and laid out what she was going to do in a clear and precise
manner, Obama, not so much. I'm voting for him but I preferred Hillary.

[damonm]

61. OK, fair response. Tks!

[SteelPenguin]

64. I liked Hillary's health care plan much better

A number of policy positions of Obama's I have serious concerns about, particularly health care....but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. As I said if you dont' like him for policy reasons, I get it. If you don't like it because you think he's a con-man ... I just don't.

[LostinVA]

44. That is NOT how I read your OP at all

[SteelPenguin]

51. How did you read it?

[RaleighNCDUer]

45. I guess that's what you get when you have 20 years of republican

personal attacks against candidates - it seems like the norm, and people don't recognize the difference.

I have not liked Hillary's politics for many years, but I admire how she raised a beautiful, confident daughter despite all the public pressure on them. Obama was far from my first choice when this race began, but I saw early on that his family is close and caring which indicates that he is a very good person on a personal level.

You can dislike someone's policies without disliking THEM.

(of course with some, like Bush, you get to do BOTH :evilgrin: )

[HEyHEY]

52. But you aren't saying that

You're saying anyone who disagrees with you is a racist. I see what you're trying to say, but I don't think you realize the bold assertion you're making.

[SteelPenguin]

59. It might be a bold assertion true

I'm also saying that I don't understand people who don't like them on a personal level. The only people who have ever explained to me, or indirectly to me via media, why they don't like them personally have their thoughts full of lies, distortions, racist statements, islamophobic leanings, etc. Again, I specifically state I'm talking about people who make personal attacks on the Obama's not policy ones.

Even in this thread nobody has explained why they don't like Obama and his family on a personal level. Not everyone who disagrees with me is necessarily a racist in this matter, but if someone can explain in rational terms why they think that they personally aren't a good family.

Are there really democrats here who think Obama is scum, Michelle is fake, and the Kids are trained and scripted? That's shocking to me if there are.

[HEyHEY]

73. Makes no sense to me either, but it's all subjective, right?

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Well, no I don't agree with his policies, but I do really like

him and his family. They seem like good, kind people. :)

[Mass]

35. This is silly, Likes and dislikes are not mandatory. I like Obama and his wife. but

anybody who thinks everybody has to like him is silly.

What matters is that they understand Obama is the best solution for the country.

[SteelPenguin]

38. never said they were mandatory

I'm just saying that if someone starts spouting off to me about how they don't like Obama because he's a bad father, that Michelle is fake, and the kids are scripted, I'm not going to consider them a rational individual.

You're right though. The most important thing is that they vote for the guy.

[depakid]

37. Don't confuse not liking someone with questions about whether they'll do what it takes to win

Some of us liked John Kerry and Michael Dukakis fine too.

That doesn't make them leaders in the eyes of most Americans. Sad but true-

[SteelPenguin]

40. Those are also valid questions

Again..There's a difference between personal attacks, and questioning his policies, or sure even the political will or style of the campaign.

To disparage him personally, or his family though just doesn't make sense to me. You can think he's a bad politician, and hate his policies, and be completely rational. To start in on his family though I just don' grok.

[depakid]

54. He and his family will be attacked

Just like any potential leader's would.

Question is- does a smart person- a chess player- understand that in advance, and take care of business?

If not- then they have business whatsoever on that stage.

[ContinentalOp]

65. But that's what they do, and it works!

They don't look at the nice, lovable, perfect family and say "aw, aren't they nice, too bad we can't go there." They look at them and ask, "how can we tear them down? how can we tarnish this image?" And if they can't succeed in putting a chink in the armor of Camelot...well, we know what they resort to then but I can't even bring myself to say it.

[Scout]

74. "nice, lovable, perfect family"

no such thing dude ... no family is perfect.

[undeterred]

43. You're right.

He's like an intellectual Bill Cosby for the 21st century. He's smart, down to earth, likes sports and music, knows history, and he's so NORMAL. When people say he's arrogant, I have to laugh, because it just doesn't match. I see a man who looked at Michelle and said, hey she's way out of my league but it never hurt to ask.

[Hepburn]

48. You hit it on your first remark....

..."unless you're a racist..."

[jzodda]

56. My friend hates him

He is a registered Democrat and plans to vote for McCain here in NY. I listen to Obama speak and I like what I hear. He listens to Obama and tells me he thinks he is a con man speaking. He supported Hillary but refuses to vote for Obama, even though he hates Bush and recognizes the last 8 years have been shit.

I have been working on him, but its hard to convince somebody when they believe the person is not for real. To be honest I have met a few Dems here in NY who feel the same way. They don't trust Obama, don't like the church he belonged too, think he's anti Israel and think he has some kind of secret agenda, whatever that means. I believe race is playing a part in how they are thinking too. I guess it really is racism, pure and simple to a degree.

Its frustrating, but I am going to keep pushing back. There is a huge swift boat machine out there trying to define Obama in negative terms, and to some degree I think its working looking at the close poll numbers. Really the campaign must come out swinging, gloves off from here to Nov if they want to win. No playing nice.

[demo dutch]

82. I understand it, I'm not wild about him either but I'm not going to vote against

my own interests, so I will support him. There are many that thing like your friend./ It doesn't make any sense at all to me to not like the past 8 yrs and vote for McCain and so race wins over their own basic political beliefs and interests.

[ContinentalOp]

60. Me neither.

:shrug: I can sort of see what some people might perceive as arrogance. But then again 99% of that is just racism too. If he were white and ten years older they would call that "gravitas" or something. What successful politician doesn't have some level of arrogance? Look at Bill. People just call Obama arrogant because he's an "inexperienced black kid" (read: "uppity").

They are also maybe a little too perfect which many Americans resent. Sadly many Americans truly would prefer the guy who was last in his class to the guy who was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. That's just the hard reality of our country's ridiculous heritage of anti-intellectualism. That's why Clinton's approval ratings remained high after the impeachment, why GWB has any fans at all and isn't in jail, and why nobody seems to have any problem with the fact that McCain was a serial-plane-crashing, serial-cheating, total fuckup.

[TexasObserver]

67. And, on cue, the usual suspects show up to vilify you for saying so

It's time to put the remaining deadenders on Ignore, and shun them from here on out.

We all know there are several posters here who are only here to express their displeasure with Obama. They're always going to piss and moan. Do yourself a favor, and put them on Ignore. Don't even respond to them. Leave them hanging with their hatred of all things Obama.

[my3boyz]

68. Most of the people are racist and bitter. nt

[demo dutch]

79. I'm not wild about Obama, but I'm not voting against my own interest so I

will support him. That doesn't make me a racist, and if it does in your opinion, that's pretty short sighted. You can't always look at things through your "own" prism

[SujiwanKenobee]

81. Sometimes irrational dislike comes from personal issues not resolved

I personally know people who have had lousy relationships with either their own family or with a significant other and are resentful toward other people who seem to have those things working well for them. They really feel angry at outward expressions of familial/marital happiness. So, when people can't/won't explain why they don't like someone, this is one possible reason why the dislike is acknowleged but not extrapolated on.

[Zenmaster]

84. In fairness, liking or disliking a person is not usually a rational process

I agree with you, by the way, that Barack, and his family are very likeable to me.