NOT jangling keys is WHY WE LOSE.

[Pab Sungenis]

Fuck all of you who are complaining about the jangling keys. Folks, that kind of attitude is WHY WE LOSE.

The average American is not the over-educated intellectual we like to think of ourselves as. Logical arguments alone are not enough, they need theater, and that's what jangling keys are. The Republicans wouldn't be screaming so loud about it and concocting some bullshit story about how it's mocking McCombover's time as a POW if they didn't know THIS KIND OF THING WORKS.

People on here are comparing the keys to the purple bandaids of 2004. Yes, they're similar. But you know what? THE BANDAIDS WORKED. What do people remember about the 2004 campaign? Not Kerry's destroying Dubya in the debates, not the issues, not the arguments. They remember the bandaids and swiftboating calling Kerry's military record into doubt. They remember the flip-flops being waved in the air to distort Kerry's position on issues. They remember the photographs of Kerry windsurfing. THAT is why we lost: we allowed the Republicans to control the symbols of the campaign, and they did.

PLEASE look back at all of the successful campaigns of the last half century. What won them? Not real issues, not positions, but FRAMING and SYMBOLS.

The "missile gap." The daisy ad. "Law and Order." "Are you better off than you were four years ago?" "Morning in America." "Kinder, Gentler." Willie Horton. Dukakis in a tank. "It's the economy, stupid." "Restore honor and dignity." Some of them empty. Some of them hollow. Some of them false. All of them effective. All of them won the White House.

Let the Republicans bitch and moan. It's not going to backfire. People thinking about the shots of jangling keys two months from now are not going to think they're a swipe at his POW status, they'll see them and remember that McCain can't remember how many houses he owns. Just as everyone who saw the purple band-aids were reminded about the doubts cast on Kerry's military service. In 2004, the images reinforced a lie. This time, our images can reinforce a truth, making them doubly powerful.

Symbols and images are what win elections, and we NEED them! There should be thousands of signs down on that convention floor hammering away at the false facade the Republicans are putting up around their candidate.

Everyone should be holding up pictures of gas pumps with $5.00 a gallon price signs and "BUSH-MCCAIN" on them.

People should be holding up "McNopoly" boards covered with houses.

We should have giant cardboard cutouts at each delegation showing the Bush/McCain embrace, or the Katrina Birthday Cake shots.

Signs with $100.00 and $500.00 bills saying "CHANGE McCAIN BELIEVES IN."

And, yes, people need to be jangling their keys.

These images, these symbols, are what linger, and they will remind people of our message.

If we let the Republicans define the symbols of this campaign, then we let them define our message. We let them define the issues. AND WE LOSE.

Don't be so fucking afraid to stand up for what's right. Don't be too cowardly to use tactics WE KNOW work. And since ours have truth behind them, they're not Rovian, or swiftboating, they're DEFINING AND SYMBOLIZING OUR MESSAGES.

We can't turn this country around unless we win. Barack Obama can't be the first great President of the century if he never reaches the oval office. All our high-minded ideals and dreams don't mean SHIT if we can't act on them.

This is a fight -- a fight for the nation's soul -- so let's not go into it unarmed.

[redqueen]

1. You have GOT to be fucking kidding me.

[Pab Sungenis]

2. Not in the least.

I grew up in two political familes, grandson to a Democratic Chairman and a Republican Chairman. I've seen how things work on both sides. I'm also a student of history. I know why they win and why we lose.

[redqueen]

11. Um, no. Acting like Repukes is how the DLC fucked our party up.

I think I'll stop listening to that kind of idiotic advice now thanks.

Good luck though! :hi:

[Pab Sungenis]

18. What fucked our party up was adopting Republican POLICIES

not Republican TACTICS.

[Cronus Protagonist]

23. You, sir, are correct.

Naysayers have given us what, in the last 8 years? Yup. Zero. Jingle 'em keys, people!!

[redqueen]

98. "Naysayers"?

In order to group everyone who disagreed with any tactic together like that you have to do an awful lot of grouping complex things into neat little 'black and white' boxes.

(it should be) Needless to say, that doesn't work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Thank you for a voice of sanity

You are exactly correct.

[redqueen]

99. Supporting republican policies = acting like a republican.

Not surprised that such an illogical statement got limited support...

[cali]

109. let's see: does the MSM carry dems' water or repukes"?

answer that and you'll (maybe) be able to grasp how fucking moronic the OP is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. Are you watching the convention Cali?

I have friends there and I am watching. No keys. This is a blog item. No one cares about this outside of cyberspace.

[redqueen]

97. They're sort of tied together, you know.

... now that this thread has become the laughingstock it deserves to be, I'll go ahead and kick it by responding to this BS.

:rofl:

[Honeycombe8]

143. You are right. If the Dems don't get movin' in slick, hard hitting ways, they'll lose.

You don't win by standing on a podium outlining how good you are on the issues.

People vote their gut. They vote for someone they think is a good guy, someone like them, someone who is authoritative (read that...tall and with a commanding voice). So what if the people don't agree 100% with the guy on the issues. Heck, they may not even bother to find out how the candidate is on the issues. Heck, they may be too busy in their daily lives (or too stupid) to KNOW what the issues are and what they mean.

Kucinich supporters, for example, never seemed to grasp this. That someone who looks and sounds like Kucinich would never be elected President, no matter what his positions on the issues are.

A lot of it is theater and repetition and nastiness.

[sourmilk]

145. Mostly true. Jangling Keys are not the answer, though.

The out-of-touch-with-Middle-Amurka meme is OK, but there needs to be a more systematic cmpaign to DISCREDIT his faux-"straight talk." McPOW will make hay while the sun shines regarding his involuntary imprisonment. Look at Solzenitsyn's "Cross in the Sand." Why did McCain Lie?

What grassroots organizations SHOULD be doing is asking for FULL DISCLOSURE of the details of his incarceration.

Why did McTreason betray his oath by giving military information to the NVA for better medical treatment?
Why won't McWar release his FULL military record?
Why won't McDamage release records of interrogations conducted by Russian Intelligence during his incarceration?
Why are the infamous 32 recorded pro-NVA propaganda statements he made STILL classified?
Why won't McPTSD release his FULL medical record? Just what medications is he TAKING, anyway.

[Carolina]

39. no, VOTING like repukes

running from our LIBERAL label and historical record, letting repukes define us with symbolism is how the DLC screwed the party.

[redqueen]

100. VOTING like repukes = ACTING like repukes. (nt)

[Carolina]

131. and what about running like whipped dogs

from liberalism and even the word liberal ... that's acting like repukes, smarty pants?

No, it's acquiescing, appeasing and LOSING!

[depakid]

48. Assenting to Republican POLICY choices is how the party messed up

Which is a very different sort of deal than failing time and again to fight.

[redqueen]

101. And who assents to republican policy? Republicans! SO if someone supports republican policy

what are they doing?

YES!

ACTING like REPUBLICANS!

*sigh*

[wolverinez]

116. No

and no

[merbex]

130. The DLC acts like the wimps the Republicans work so hard to paint us

Are you addicted to losing?

[LynneSin]

5. no, we let the subject die and had to bring it up again just to help our republican friends

:grr:

[guruoo]

83. Found a pic of their ringleader

[roguevalley]

118. given the type of news media we have they will spend four days

24/7 discussing the keys and ignore everything else. As for the fuck you, back atcha baby. :)

[redqueen]

128. Erm... huh?

:P

[sendero]

139. Like so many DUers..

... if you were running a campaign we'd never win.

Negative campaigning WORKS. You can hate that fact all you want but you cannot change it.

The repukes have not been out-governing us, they have been out campaigning us. They KNOW this stuff works and that is why they use it.

[LynneSin]

3. I would prefer our party not be that of the fat, ugly women with 'purple band-aids'

thank you very much

[Pab Sungenis]

4. You would prefer we be the minority forever, then?

That's the alternative.

[LynneSin]

8. Gee, last time I checked we were the MAJORITY in congress

and are on serious track to make major gains in both the house and senate.

But perhaps you read a different story about congress THAT THE REST OF US HAVE NOT HEARD

[Pab Sungenis]

14. And we don't have the White House

so we don't have the veto, and don't have enough votes to break a filibuster. Thus, we don't control the agenda.

These past two years have been very ineffective. We need the White House or we're always going to be playing second fiddle.

[bahrbearian]

17. That hard hitting opposition congress, how is that working for ya?

[Cronus Protagonist]

27. lol

If the Democratic party gets any more milquetoast we might as well call it a church, not a political party.

[LynneSin]

37. I think the person was implying we were in the minority which we are not

Not sure where the heck that comment feeds into the story line but, um, ok.

[Pab Sungenis]

41. We're not in the minority?

When did we end the war?
When did we save S-CHIP?
When did we pass universal health?

We DON'T control the agenda because we DON'T hold the White House. We got more done in six years of Clinton with a Republican Congress than we have in the year and a half since we retook the "majority."

[LynneSin]

51. Seriously - go sign up with the republican party because you're happy to help them win

What about fighting right here right now to get Obama elected. Fuck the damn keys, Fuck Loretta Sanchez, Fuck the Clinton staffers who want to go home early - these are NOT thing things that will get us elected.

Hell if you and everyone else obsessed over these really stupid things would just put HALF that effort into getting Obama elected we could get this guy into the White House.

Who gives a fuck about the keys - they were a stupid idea that would do nothing but give the right-wing screeds a bashing point on democrats for ages to come. You think it's just a lil molehill but by the time they are done we'll have this giant fucking mountain controverey about keys and all it does is MAKE OBAMA LOOK BAD.

So drop the damn keys, it was a stupid idea that would do NOTHING to help Obama win. You want to get the majority then fight for things that will make a difference. I love the concept about the buttons that say "Ask me about my houses" because it's something I could wear AFTER the convention and make conversation pieces when a passerby might as about why I'm wearing that button. After the election is over and I jangle my keys people will think I just have a nervous, annoying tick.

No matter what I say you'll just ignore me and obsess about the keys. I just wish you and all the other key janglers would find a new obsession like GET OBAMA IN TEH WHITE HOUSE!!!

[Pab Sungenis]

55. I want US to win.

That's why I'm MAKING this argument.

[LynneSin]

60. No you want YOU to win

You want everyone to jump on board this stupid idea of jangling keys

It's not about US or Obama or anything else other than YOU think it's cute to do human pet tricks at the convention. If YOU stop thinking about what YOU like and thought about the big picture you'd realize just how stupid it is.

But I'll tell you this much - if they sell those pins about "Ask me about my House" - hell I'll buy you one. That's something we can take away from the convention and continue to use for the rest of the campaign.

[Pab Sungenis]

70. I don't care about the KEYS. I'm talking about the ATTITUDE.

Not using symbols like that is why we lose. We let the Republicans define the symbols, and this the dialogue.

I had nothing to do with the keys idea. I don't care if we don't jangle keys, but we NEED to do similar tactics to help deliver our message, or we lose.

[LynneSin]

74. Like I said - you want YOU to win

Human pet tricks are stupid but I suppose it's proof that simple things entertain simple minds.

[Pab Sungenis]

78. Exactly.

And that's what will entertain, and help hook the voters.

[LynneSin]

79. Are our voters that stupid?

I figured if they're stupid enough to be entertained by some fat-fucked up woman with a band-aid then they're stupid enough to vote republicans.

[Pab Sungenis]

81. It's not OUR voters I'm worried about.

A woman once told Adlai Stevenson that "you have the vote of every thinking person!" He replied "that's not enough, I need a majority."

The core Democrats don't need symbols, but certain independents and "swing voters" do.

[LynneSin]

82. Why are you so insistant on winning this argument?

It's a dumbass idea. We don't need stupid human tricks even these voters you mentioned are going to vote for a candidate because someone jangled a key or wore a stupid band-aid. Hell most of these people aren't even watching the convention.

What we need are some hard hitting speeches that hit home key phrases that sum up our administration. Bill Clinton didn't win with cutsie gimmicks but speaking to the people about the change we needed and giving up hope that we could turn this country around.

THAT is what wins elections, provided that they aren't stolen like in 2000/2004

[Pab Sungenis]

105. I don't want to see us continue to adopt losing tactics, that's why.

As I've been saying, the Republicans use these tactics because they work. There's nothing underhanded or dirty or "Rovian" about them. They're tried and true methods, in use for centuries, and they work.

Thom Hartmann said it best recently: Democrats have forgotten how to do political theater. That's the kind of thing we need, and "taking the high ground" is a surefire way to lose.

[LynneSin]

106. So we adopt stupid pet tricks instead

We can do politcal theater without being stupid.

[Pab Sungenis]

110. The "stupid pet tricks" are what people remember.

You sell more with humor than you do with data, and you sell more with images than you do with words. Marketing 101.

[LynneSin]

112. Stupid pet tricks are what amuses you

The rest of us want to hear fiery speeches and attack dogs against the Bush/McCain regime. THAT'S political theatrics. I realize we did not see them last night but I was not expecting them then. But the rest of the week should be grand. And I don't want it spoiled by stupid human tricks that'll take away from the message these speakers want to tell us.

[bahrbearian]

58. Speaking about obsessing about keys.

"these are NOT thing things that will get us elected" taking impeachment off the tabel and funding a war is what makes us such good fighters and so electable. Hey look over there a new cold war.

[bahrbearian]

52. If that is how a majority in congress governors, then maybe we need

to change tactics. Sometimes you have to fight back for change, and fighting can be dirty. The repugs are known for National Defense and supposedly knowing how to trim government. They didn't get that reputation by being nice.

[frylock]

123. that majority and a nickel will get you a steaming hot of jack krap

[Honeycombe8]

144. There is nothing wrong with being a fat woman. As for ugly, that is subjective.

There is nothing wrong with being a fat man who doesn't look like Ashton Kutcher. (except for health reasons of course)

(note: I am a woman but am not fat and am not "ugly")

[HardWorkingDem]

6. Remember Kerry and the Band-Aids?

That's how the key prop would end up looking....childish, silly and ineffective.

[Pab Sungenis]

7. AND THE BANDAIDS WORKED.

THAT'S MY POINT.

[LynneSin]

10. No the band-aids were stupid, stealing the election in Ohio worked

:eyes:

[redqueen]

15. OMG NO REALLY I NEVER KNEW THAT I TOTALLY THOUGHT IT WAS BAND AIDS DUDE!

[LynneSin]

16. This woman single-handedly caused Kerry to lose the election

I SHIT YOU NOT

:eyes:

[Pab Sungenis]

22. No, not single handedly.

She was one of the many straws that broke Kerry's back. The purple heart band-aids reinforced their message.

[LynneSin]

32. Get the fuck over with it

You think we could jangle keys without having the MSM kill us on the whole POW/PTSD - if anything THAT would kill us.

We don't need fucking stupid human tricks like this to give fodder to the media to crucify our party anymore. And that woman didn't cost us an election, didn't even come close. If she was one of 'many straws that broke Kerry's back' then the other straws must have been the size of redwood sequoias because this one was fucking insignificant.

I don't need to give free material to the right wing media to help make us look stupid and that's what key jangling does EVEN if you think it's a cutsie idea that wins elections.

And the fact that just about everyone in this thread thinks it's a stupid idea that should just die away goes to show that you seem to be thrilled over giving more fodder to those right-wing screeds to help put the nail in Obama's coffin.

[Pab Sungenis]

40. Guess what?

You think we could jangle keys without having the MSM kill us on the whole POW/PTSD - if anything THAT would kill us.

I just did a Google News search for "jangling keys" and "McCain keys" and guess how many stories I found?

Two.

One from an AOL blogger....
...and one from the Young Turks, who are ostensibly on OUR side.

The MSM is NOT hitting us on this. And if we fire back constantly, they won't be ABLE to hit us on this.

Hit away, folks.

[LynneSin]

54. Yeah you want to know why just TWO

First because DU is not mainstream media and SECOND because WE'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING STUPID LIKE JANGLING THE DAMN KEYS AT THE CONVENTION.

Two is two too many if you ask me

[cliffordu]

65. I REALLY wish you knew what the fuck you were talking about. Really.

[Danger Mouse]

46. No. They didn't. They were just stupid, and idiots liked them.

[SurfingAtWork]

69. For what its worth, I didn't know the bandaids existed until a few days ago

When I saw the pic in a posters sig here.

[rug]

9. Maybe we can just suck our teeth when we watch Fox.

[blondeatlast]

12. Keys are last year already. Besides, if wonks like me can't get the symbolism right

(trigger MCain's temper or the houses?) how does it work on the great unwonk?

[SoxFan]

13. Biggest landslide ever?

1972.

Nixon over McGovern.

The Nixon campaign and WH organized burglaries, conducted illegal wiretaps, accumulated shady slush funds, and engaged in all sorts of dirty tricks.

But hey, they won, didn't they? I guess that makes it acceptable.

[bahrbearian]

25. Oh, man did they just pass a law against rattling your keys?

shit I've got be be careful when I start my car.

[cliffordu]

30. What happened to the democratic party at the convention??

Ask Teddy Kennedy.

[Pab Sungenis]

34. And we need MORE people like Teddy.

We NEED more fist pounding, shouted slogans, sound bites, and images.

This convention is a four day infomercial for the Democratic Party and our message. We need to market it and sell it effectively, and we aren't doing that!

[cliffordu]

38. You obviously aren't paying attention. Sorry.

[Symarip]

19. Not jangling keys

Is why I'm a Democrat and a progressive.

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. Werd!

Tru dat!!

[cliffordu]

21. We lose because "experts" like you show a lack of faith in the candidates' methods.

and fence sitters get scared.

Obama is doing just fine.

Your lack of insight and faith is breathtaking, however.

[SoxFan]

26. "I find your lack of faith disturbing"

[Pab Sungenis]

29. I really hope I don't have to say "I told you so."

We need to win this election. Hell, the NATION needs us to win this election.

Still, every time we run a "high minded" campaign (1968, 1972, 1984, 1988, 2004) we lose and lose big.

[cliffordu]

33. I guess it's better act like Rove, then.

After all, the ends justify the means.

Go ahead, you first.

[Pab Sungenis]

We won't be acting like Rove.

Rove uses the big lie technique. What I'm talking about is good old-fashioned political theater to reinforce the truth behind our arguments.

[SoFlaJet]

45. I don't disagree with you pabsun

look at the idiots who are getting all the attention with their whine-fest Denver protests-screw the GOP and screw the taking the high road bullshit-I want to win...this morning I turned on a Miami station (940AM WINZ) that HAD had a Miami local woman and LIBERAL VOICE Nicole Sandler on only to find Imus talking to Karl Rove saying he was gonna go up on a mountain with his family and look north expecting to see the smoke from protesters burning down the Mile High City

[TexasObserver]

24. Yes, it is one major reason we lose.

Unfortunately, we have a healthy number of Democrats who simply are too soft for the work of politics. They think we're running for Miss Congeniality, not control of the country.

These people couldn't sell water in the Sahara Desert, they're so clueless about selling any kind of thing or idea. They lack any sense of marketing, and wrongly believe that whatever processes they use for looking at candidates are normal.

Every cycle, the nervous ninnies wail like this. "But if we stoop to rattling keys, we're no better than them!" they cry. Tell them to go find a wounded bird to save. We've got an election to win, and I can assure you, no one ever won an election listening to the weak souls who fret their way through every day, worrying about who might take offense at what.

[Pab Sungenis]

31. Look at your own backyard.

Ann Richards knew how to fight, and no one would ever dare to call her "Rovian."

Yes, let Obama speak his message in grandiose terms, and appeal to the better nature of everyone, but we need the street fighters down there clearing the way for him.

[TexasObserver]

42. That's right. The candidate remains above the fray, but we don't.

I'm appalled at the lack of backbone of the handwringers. These people must have spent a lifetime perfecting the art of caving in. It's the kind of weak response that destroyed Kerry's campaign four years ago.

Every time something pops up, we need to NAIL IT. This house issue is a godsend. We have a great issue to run with, because it does so many things.

My dad used to call handwringers "worry warts." As in "don't be a worry wart." They do love to fret, not just about what they will do, but especially about what YOU will do.

[Guava Jelly]

28. I disagree

You don't defeat your enemies by becoming them.
You beat them by being better than them.
Keys are childish and petty and won't convince a single soul to vote against McCain.

[Carolina]

35. I hear ya and totally agree

far too many Americans go for symbols over substance. We, Dems, should USE both to our advantage

[ContinentalOp]

53. oops, I totally misread your post.

[Spazito]

36. It seems there are buttons being sold and/or given away...

that get the same message across only with succinctness and clarity, less subject to misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6756037

[loyalsister]

43. military imagery

If that is absolutely necessary to understand what is happening here.

The smartest nation doesn't necessarily kill all of the others by "fighting back" using conventional methods. They outsmart them using a new one.

The reason the polls are what they are is that a large number of voters are excluded from them. Students, and disaffected voters do not show up in polls.
Maybe close polls would say let's get to work, but "oh god we're going to lose unles we go in for the kill" is a little extreme.

Perspective folks.
Our little anecdotes do not make for large scale voting patterns.
I hear people who say negative things and turn around a few days later and say they'll vote for him.
I also hear the same people talk about how they will vote dem down ticket.

If you run into one that bothers you just keep working the campaign.

[Danger Mouse]

44. We will never win by acting like Republicans. Never.

End of story.
Take your Rovian tricks back to Hell where they belong.

[Butch350]

95. Yep, back to hell. That's what kerry did.

[Danger Mouse]

124. Kerry didn't do shit. I'm amazed at how few people seem to grasp...

that this issue is BEYOND black and white.

[endthewar]

47. MSM talking point today: Dems are too weak and timid

Everybody knows that the Republican Convention will be attacking Obama in every which way from opening to closing.

[depakid]

49. That's about right.

Day two.

[redqueen]

50. Where did you hear that talking point today? (nt)

[endthewar]

59. Where is it not being said?

CNN and MSNBC were 24/7 Hillary, division, and some version of what Carville said, that this is the 5th Dem Convention day in a row not attacking Republicans at all. The Dem leadership response has been pretty much that the attacks are coming. Quite frankly I wish a few people had started a key-rattling session.

Obviously Hillary will be attacking McCain and Bush today, or else her top surrogates wouldn't have been complaining about it.

[redqueen]

64. So then you haven't heard that today? Is that what you're saying?

Uh huh.

But you just thought you'd claim that that was being used as a talking point today anyhow, in an effort to help a few others to push this key jangling bullshit. Again.

I get it.

[endthewar]

66. Are you denying that Carville said that and that others have said that?

:crazy:

Please, do tell what Carville was saying then. Maybe he was speaking in code. :eyes:

[redqueen]

68. Today? Because we're too "soft" at the convention? No... to my knowledge they haven't.

But you just keep right on beating that drum for the "key janglers".

Great, noble cause you're putting so much energy into.

[endthewar]

72. You obviously haven't tuned in to CNN or MSNBC

and I'm assuming FOX News isn't doing any favors for Dems either.

Yeah, I'm really beating the drum for key janglers are spending 2 minutes making posts that disagree with you. :eyes:



:rofl:

[redqueen]

73. 2 minutes? Have you forgotten yesterday already?

So now you're changning your story and saying you HAVE heard someone saying that Dems are soft based on what they've seen at the convention?

Example please?

You can stop flamebaiting now. I'm not interested in "feeding" that.

[endthewar]

75. .

:rofl:

[endthewar]

84. Carville, Gergen, plus many pundits on MSNBC and CNN

Now hush.

[LynneSin]

57. DU talking points - what else can we do to help elect republicans!!

The convention is four nights and you can be rest assured we have that on the agenda. Monday night had one main goal and that was to sell Michelle Obama, which Michelle did a great job doing. She reached out to voters and gave them the message - "Barack and I are one of you, we came from working class families struggling to make ends meet just like you did too" and Michelle hit gold last night. If she spent her entire speech bashing McCain (and she had a few), she would have not won over the convention AND even the media which has been praising her for a great speech.

And the other key message was honoring Ted Kennedy - who has given us an amazing career.

Trust me, the bashing will be coming - even Nancy Pelosi was bashing in her speech.

[endthewar]

61. I agree that this will happen.

Still doesn't change the fact of what the MSM talking points have been. Obviously Hillary will be attacking Bush and McCain, or else her top surrogates wouldn't have been complaining so publicly about it.

[NoodleyAppendage]

90. Sometimes the TRUTH hurts. We need to bring a gun to the knife fight, not a wet towel. n/t

J

[Beregond2]

56. I've never met a single person who knew anything about the

purple band-aids, outside of this board and the political media. Jangling keys is idiotic. The issues are hardly comparable. A lot of houses versus lying about one's military service? Please. It would only make us look childish. It also makes the statement: "We have nothing significant to attack McCain on, so we are going to whine about the fact he is rich."

If you want to attack McCain, bring up the fact that he turned traitor and did propaganda for the enemy. How is that NOT an issue? All this "He is a war hero" crap makes me sick. Ask the vets about that one.

[LSK]

62. how do keys symbolize owning a bunch of houses????

Everyone has multiple keys on their key chain.

The whole idea is stupid.

[Danger Mouse]

63. i have like 7 or 8 keys total, does that mean i own a bunch of houses?

haha, i wish!

[redqueen]

76. ...

Pity so many seemingly genuine DUers are getting in line so fast... but people are frighteningly easy to maniuplate...

[endthewar]

85. .

:crazy:

[Pab Sungenis]

121. !

but people are frighteningly easy to maniuplate.

My point exactly. I just want to manipulate them with the truth.

[Orsino]

71. Imagine what we'd lose by jangling keys. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

88. word-

:hi:

[Erin Elizabeth]

77. Stupidest thread title ever.

Yeah, THAT'S why we lose. Uh-huh. So you have a crystal ball and know this election is lost for a lack of a petty fucking stunt?

GMAFB.

[LynneSin]

80. If I could nominate your reply - you'd get my vote and enough others

to be on DU home page

:clap:

[redqueen]

86. A stunt with apparently no basis in reality.

Isn't it weird how a select few are sooooooo heavily invested in pushing something that doesn't even exist?

[Erin Elizabeth]

91. Yep.

Are we being infiltrated by five year olds?

[redqueen]

93. We're being infiltrated by something, that's for sure. (nt)

[guruoo]

87. You really shouldn't put them in your mouth like that...

[NoodleyAppendage]

89. EXACTLY. The appeal to reason and logic IS LOST ON THE VAST POPULACE.

Many on DU are content to lose the Presidency as long as it doesn't mean pulling their heads out of their intellectual asses. Southpark had it nailed...many liberals get high off their own high-and-mighty farts.

WE NEED TO PULVERIZE MCCAIN, not appeal to the voters' "better natures." Fuck that...Hobbes had it right. The "better natures" argument is over-blown. People like to see blood in a political fight, not some wimpy love fest.

J

[wolverinez]

119. bingo

nm

[yellowcanine]

92. Get real. Elections are not won with stunts like this. This is equivalent to the purple bandaids.

There is zero evidence that the purple bandaids at the 2004 Republican Convention changed anyone's mind or motivated anybody to vote. All it did was make the people who engaged in it look like sophomoric dipshits.

[Pab Sungenis]

114. They created lasting images

which stuck in people's minds. People who had questions about Kerry had the bandaids and the flip-flops and these other images burned into their minds.

[yellowcanine]

132. There is no evidence for that. Not that many people were even aware of the bandaid issue.

A few pubbies at the convention or watching the convention who would not have voted for Kerry in any case and people on DU who would not let it keep them from voting for Kerry. As I said, the only effect that I could see was that some sophomoric losers looked even more pathetic than usual. Stunts like this just don't have a significant impact on elections. They say more about the people promoting them than the target. If anything they backfire and fire up the supporters of the target.

[BigDDem]

94. If we don't jangle keys, we lose!

Thanks so much for that brilliant observation.
If they dont jangle keys and Obama loses, it's because they didnt
jangle keys? That sounds about right.

[Pab Sungenis]

120. If Obama loses

it's because he (and we) will have made him lose.

1988 and 2004 were ours to win. All the stars had aligned for us in both cases. We ran shitty campaigns each time.

And please don't give me the "stolen election" shit about "stolen elections." Kerry LOST the popular vote in 2004 when he should have won it in a landslide.

The Republicans use tactics like the bandaids and the flip-flops because they work. And they did work.

It's not lying. It's not smearing. Why are you so afraid of using theatrics to help get our message across?

[BigDDem]

122. What percentage of people do you think

voted FOR Bush because of "tactics like the bandaids and the flip-flops?"

[Pab Sungenis]

125. The tactics cemented doubts in people's minds.

When they thought about Kerry when considering who to vote for, a lot of undecideds got those images. I have no scientific data about how many voters it moved, but I'm certain it's not an insignificant number.

It's like football: you can't win if you're afraid your uniform will get mussed.

[Bright Eyes]

96. "NOT jangling keys is WHY WE LOSE."

Yes, because stolen elections had nothing to do with it.

[Pab Sungenis]

107. Stop using "stolen elections" as an excuse.

We ran very shitty campaigns in 2000 and 2004. I won't say we deserved to lose, but we were outcampaigned both times by miles.

[IEatRepublicans]

117. EXACTLY!!!!!!

LOL @ stolen campaigns...

even if they did steal Florida in 2000, it should have never been that close to begin with... we deserved to lose just off the fact that we allowed it to be close..

[BumRushDaShow]

102. Is it time for a new "Daisy" Ad?

With the Russian rhetoric heating up like it is and the neocons trying desperately to get us in a 3rd war with someone, I envision a stark ad with no voice-over narration or sound... simply a nuke going off, with the screen gradually going black and fade-in of a statement like "Your future with John McCain". It wouldn't even need any frilly nature scenes to precede this. Just a black screen, a nuke lighting up the landscape, and back to black.

I'm actually serious because the disruption that is going on in this period before Shrub leaves office is certainly scary.

[IEatRepublicans]

103. FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A FUCKING CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!

We have a national security problem as a party because we can't even demonstrate that we can defend ourselves from political attacks, let alone from a foreign entity. People gravitate towards those who show strength. By not showing strength in fighting these ridiculous smears, lies and distortions, we come off as weak. This is not the image we need to portray. The GOP has made a living off mocking us and we sit there like some punk and take it, hoping that people see how childish they are.

Fuck your moral high ground. We've had the moral high ground for 8 years as the repukes have run this country into the dirt. We had it in 2004 and got smashed by 3 million votes, because Kerry came off as a wimp who drinks wine and windsurfs. And this guy had his life on the line in a war, while the other guy avoided serving at all costs.

I'm not interested in losing with honor, I want to win at any costs. No one remembers a loser. This country is on the precipice of disaster if we continue to allow that selfish party control the levers.

[LSK]

104. Hi there, did you vote in my poll?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6757706&mesg_id=6757706

[quantass]

108. I agree. The avg voter needs THEATRICS. Repubs know that...

It does seem childish but democrats have to wake up and use some republican tactics that have worked so often. The average voter needs theatrics and so does the media. Until democrats start to hit below the belt, go on the attack, and use whatever means necessary to get the job done (eg. 2000 election staged voter riots, rigging elections, blatantly lie about your opponent) they will lose. Face it republicans have no clue on how to run the country but damnit they know how to win. Why, because they burn all bridges.

[yurbud]

111. Bush-McCain gas price sign great idea

[Jakes Progress]

113. I read the OP, but

not all the replies, so I'm sure you have been told what a dumb and misguided idea this is.

You did talk about the world not being brilliant (I guess you mean as brilliant as you). But here's something you don't know. The world isn't like you either. They won't look at jangling keys as a sign of strength and power. They will look at it as beer-numb frat boys being ... well beer-numb frat boys. I notice you love to capitalize curse words. Heres' something else you don't know. Most of the country - including those we would like to have vote for us - don't see foul language as a sign of intelligence. Down at Hooters, your buds may get off on it, but most of us find it just too, too tacky. We don't want to send the message that Obama's supporters all had absent parents who failed to help them learn the social graces.

[wolverinez]

115. One of the best DU posts ever

Sorry folks, but intellectual bullshit does not win presidential elections.

[ieoeja]

127. Right! Taunting American POWs about their captivity does! n/t

[WinkyDink]

138. The "houses" just happened; the VietNam Conflict ended over THIRTY YEARS AGO. People will think of

"houses".
Don't worry; ain't gonna happen. It was always fiction.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

129. Bad idea!

"Everyone should be holding up pictures of gas pumps with $5.00 a gallon price signs and "BUSH-MCCAIN" on them.

People should be holding up "McNopoly" boards covered with houses.

We should have giant cardboard cutouts at each delegation showing the Bush/McCain embrace, or the Katrina Birthday Cake shots.

Signs with $100.00 and $500.00 bills saying "CHANGE McCAIN BELIEVES IN." "

These are all good ideas and fair game.

However, as you also pointed out, the keys thing is exactly like the band-aid fiasco in '04 -- THEY REPRESENT THE SAME OLD POLITICS THAT OBAMA IS AGAINST! This vastly diminishes our chances if we bring these same "old politics" back.

How can you run on a platform of change if you're pulling the same old dirty tricks as the GOP?

[backscatter712]

133. The OP's right - I don't think there will be a backfire.

The public's too desensitized to our politicians playing dirty pool that they won't look twice at jangling keys. If they see John McCain wigging out in reaction to them, they very well might notice that and think "Do we want this psycho's finger on the button?"

They've seen too many 3am ads and purple bandaids and so on - the keychains won't be anything new.

But for us, it's a weapon. I suggest we use it.

Don't hold back. Don't pull punches, and don't feel the least bit guilty for playing dirty pool. The Repugs won't.

We have to do whatever it takes to retake our country, and we don't have the luxury of being able to afford to be nice.

Don't show any mercy to them. Don't show compassion to them. Just utterly fucking ruin and destroy those repuke sons-of-bitches. It's what they deserve.

If we don't stop fighting with one hand tied behind our backs, it'll be 2004 all over again.

[eridani]

134. We can do better than keys, visually. Period. n/t

[stevietheman]

135. You're basically correct, although workable tactics are debatable.

Contemporary Democrats, for some reason, don't truly fight for what they believe in, acting as if they're above the fray of rough politics. Well, that's the attitude that loses the elections for the goody two-shoes side, us.

We need to get rough. We must. It's for our country's survival.

[bridgit]

136. Make them the keys to Abu Ghraib, or Gitmo, and you may have something there...

[judasdisney]

137. Don't fight - ! Be soft and nice - ! They'll call us "angry" - ! Don't be mean and fight back!

"Arbeit macht frei" ?? What does that sign mean? I don't get it. Where are you taking me? You want me to take off my ring and my watch, and take the laces out of my shoes? See, I'm cooperating. I'm not angry. I'm sure you have a good reason for relocating us here.

[dansolo]

140. The bandaids were ignored by the MSM

I don't recall anyone mentioning the purple heart bandaids in the media. Why? It would have been highly damaging to the Republicans if it actually got coverage. Look what happened in 1992. When people see the true face of the Republicans, they get turned off. We talked about it here a lot, but I can guarantee that if you asked an average voter about it, they wouldn't know what you were talking about.

[lamp_shade]

141. And those that didn't "ignore" them... "ridiculed" them. n/t

[rucky]

142. this is so over-the-top.

[mmonk]

146. The risk is THEY control the media in that big media supports McCain.

It will not work nor have the effect of the band aid campaign. You underestimate the power of a hostile media and how you can't direct the reaction.

[backscatter712]

153. The media will smear us no matter what we do.

If we don't jangle keys, the media will smear us. If we do jangle keys, the media will also smear us.

In other words, we have nothing to lose by giving the fuckers a reason to be pissed off at us.

[barack the house]

147. Television is the most powerful force on earth keys can't really impact that our hard work does.

[spoony]

148. It's as childish an idea as your post

We can be effective and not come off looking like, and acting like, oblivious kindergartners.

[johnlucas]

149. Nah, that's not why Democrats lose

Democrats lose because Democrats are scared to be Democrats without fear.
If you don't stand for anything, you fall for everything.

You can turn those gimmicks on their head by coming at the people as a straight talker. A no-bullshit kind of person. You can say "While the Republicans are playing cutesy games putting on stickers with purple hearts, your mortgage is having a hard time being paid because of this screwed up economy. I'm here to talk about the economy."

Blunt straight talk trumps campaign gimmicks.
Genuineness trumps Theater.

Democrats won't stand up for anything and don't have a track record of standing up for anything in people's memory.

The ONE thing about the Republicans that the Democrats better emulate is GUTS and STICK-TO-IT-IVE-NESS. The fact that we even have Rick Warren hosting a religious forum with the presidential candidates (there's not supposed to be a religious test for elections) is because the Republicans have controlled the culture with a stubborn message. They have conviction in their pet causes.

Even if people don't agree with you you gain respect by standing your ground and showing that you are right. If the Democrats don't win this election, this is the last of the Democrat party. Guaranteed.

Obama needs to stop conceding and pandering to the illusion "middle" that doesn't exist and stay on message and REALLY example a change of the way things have been done. Not just a slogan but a genuine heartfelt message. Let the others use those gimmicks and then trap them in that kind of play with Real MF'n Talk (courtesy of Dollar Bill Montgomery AKA Aries Spears from MadTV).

John Lucas

[LynneSin]

150. I am so damn glad you weren't in charge of what the crowd does at the convention

Today's top story would have been all about the stupidity of the key rattling instead of what it should be: Democrats unite under Hillary's home run speech.

You wanted theatrics - you got it and her name is Hillary Rodham Clinton

[Psyop Samurai]

151. A lot of Democrats are good at fighting hard against...

...fighting hard.

Makes ya wonder.

[bdamomma]

152. they should pass out keys to delegates at the Convention.

[apnu]

154. Gee and I thought I'd get through the day w/out hearing yet another stupid key rant.

Sorry, but jangling keys gets us nothing. Its not fighting back, its just stupid. Stupid is what loses elections, and we had a boat load of it in 2004 thanks to the DLC hamstringing Kerry.

Keys and band-aids have nothing to do with it.

[walldude]

155. This is a fight -- a fight for the nation's soul -- so let's not go into it unarmed

Armed? Jangling keys is what you call armed? That's taking a knife to a gun fight. The Republican attack machine is just that. A well oiled machine. You're not going to defeat it by waving some fucking keys around at a convention. The purple band-aids weren't some huge symbol remembered forever, it was a fucking joke to them, like the flip flops. A little salt in the wound. The wounds don't come from these thoroughly stupid ideas, they come from the media and the right wing machine designed to manipulate the populace into voting against their own interests.

"Not jangling keys is why we lose." No, we lose because we challenge what is on the surface, not what is underneath.

[justiceischeap]

156. What most of you are missing is the spirit of the OP

Having worked for a very polarizing non-profit organization for several years, what the OP is saying has some truth to it. If you want to get your talking points on air, you've got to grab the attention of the MSM whores. The way to do that is with theatrics (sorry dude, not big on the key thing but liked some of your other ideas).

How many of us are complaining about the MSM talking over the speeches at the convention? A lot. How many of us have complained about the lack of red-meat so far? A lot. I think the spirit of the OP's post is that we need to take that red-meat to McCain and capture the MSM's attention.

Everyone should be holding up pictures of gas pumps with $5.00 a gallon price signs and "BUSH-MCCAIN" on them.

People should be holding up "McNopoly" boards covered with houses.

We should have giant cardboard cutouts at each delegation showing the Bush/McCain embrace, or the Katrina Birthday Cake shots.

Signs with $100.00 and $500.00 bills saying "CHANGE McCAIN BELIEVES IN."

The above ideas would garner media attention and make people think about McPOW in a symbolic, bite-size manner. It's not Rovian, it's not Republican, it's smart marketing. One of the most memorable moments of many of the anti-war demos is the coffins. That's political theater done well. It really got the message across and had quite an impact.

I also agree with the OP that we need "sharper" talking points. So far at this convention there hasn't been that "biting" anger that we had two years ago when we won the Senate. If we're going to grab the MSM's attention and get our message out we most definitely need to take the fight to the Repugs and not wait until they bring the fight to us. We've too long been on the defensive and need to go on the offensive.

Notice, not once did I mention the jangling keys in a serious way, that's because I'm looking at the spirit of the post and not necessarily the content.