We will NEVER win by acting like Republicans and here is the big WHY.

[Danger Mouse]

Remember this vile sack of trash?

Do you remember the media outrage over it? No? That's the M$M for you. The Republicans pulled that, and the SBVT nonsense, and got away with it scot-free, because the media is on THEIR side, not OURS.
The Purple Heart band-aids were a disgusting, low tactic, they did not win any voters over to Bush, they were just a disgusting and immature smear. But they still got away with it.
Do you think we'll be so lucky? Bullshit. The media will rake us over the coals no matter what we do...if we go all-out attacking or if we don't. I don't say we should just shut up and do nothing, or play nice. Not at all. You have to hit hard, but not in ways that are low and immature, and not by BEING LIKE THE REPUBLICANS.
The Republicans only get away with what they do because the media won't hold them responsible for it. WE won't be so lucky. If we act like them, we will lose.
We have to win on OUR terms, not THEIRS. They WANT us to be dragged down to their level, because then they beat us on experience and a willingness to play dirtier than any of us ever dreamed.
I, for one, will not be a part to dirty attacks, lowblows, and filthy tricks. I'm not even saying the 'keys' issue is a big deal...it's not. It's stupid. But the greater issue is DEMS saying 'anything to win.' You might as well change that to 'anything to lose,' because with that mentality, all we'll be doing is losing.
Sorry about all the caps. :hi:

[Danger Mouse]

1. kick...sank like a rock, huh?

[TheDebbieDee]

2. We will never win by acting like "high road" door mats, either.

[Danger Mouse]

5. That's not what I'm advocating!

The two choices aren't just 'high road door mat' and 'complete asshole'...that's what I'm saying!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

8. AMEN! I agree with you on that. It also means not capitulating to the Repukes

And I've seen the DLC do that, acting like them. Harold Ford, Jr. immediately comes to mind. Ken Salazar, "Traitor Joe" LIEberman...all of them. And they all have one thing in common: they are members of the DLC. It's unacceptable and we must stop. Acting like Repukes hasn't won us elections.

[LynneSin]

3. Nonnon0ononooo - Stupid Human Pet tricks at the Convention is what WINS

Simple things for stupid, simple minds.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. Damned if you do, damned if you don't - I say DO IT!

Might as well get a few licks in on the way down, and hey, maybe, just maybe, we might win this time around.

[geek tragedy]

6. Fuck the goddamn high road.

Strip the bark off the old bastard.

They did it to Kerry, we do it to McCain.

Period.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. so 'they' convert you to being 'them' and

you see that as 'winning'?

Guess we have a different view of what we are really fighting for and against.

:shrug:


"Wrong" is only "wrong" when "they" do it??

[Danger Mouse]

17. Again, there are more options than

'High road' and 'fucking asshole'
They did it to Kerry through distortion, lies, and innuendo. IS this how you want to beat McCain?

[Bluerthanblue]

7. if 'we' become 'like them' to 'win'-

we've lost what was the most important thing to begin with- ourselves.

Any means to an end has gotten this world to where we are.

It's long past time for a change. "WE MUST BE the change we wish to see in this world." not just by quoting Gandhi or by 'talking' good- but through our actions and with our lives.


The path you advocate isn't the 'easy' one, it doesn't satisfy our urge to 'get even' or vent pent up frustrations- but it is the ONLY one that offers any true, valuable chance for REAL CHANGE. Winning isn't everything as you say. What are we left with if we give up the best of ourselves in the process?

:hi:

[ContinentalOp]

10. Speak for yourself. I'm not after "being myself" or "being the change" or any of that soft brained

hippy nonsense. I'm after sane economic policies that benefit the middle class, universal healthcare, regulating corporations gone wild, international diplomacy instead of warmongering and saber rattling. I want to WIN so that we can achieve those things. I don't care about purity of tactics or staying true to some kind of mythological spiritual ideal.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. I am speaking for myself, as you are

for yourself.

The very concept of 'equality' and 'universal health care' and not wanting to engage in wars, or threaten war so that the greedy elite can hoard more and more while the little people go without- is built on what you seem to call "soft-brained" "hippy nonsense".

If you are willing to adopt a mindset that allows you to act in any way you deem necessiary to 'win' what you see as an essential policy, then you go ahead and sell yourself out- But don't expect me to join you, applaud you, or encourage others to follow you, without comment.

In 'your' view of the world, you will always be fighting to have 'control'- you may get your way for awhile, but it is a continual struggle- MLKjr. Gandhi, RFK, and countless other 'soft-brained' 'hippies' (by your measure) didn't sell out their core beliefs and personal ideals to win- and while they may have died without seeing full success, they have done more to bring real positive change in the world, and STILL influence this world to turn away from violence and hatred- than all the strong- armed, underhanded power hungry blow hards that urge us to sell ourselves out.

I'm not willing to prostitute myself for temporary satisfaction any longer. If you believe differently- that's up to you. I AM speaking for MYSELF- and never claimed otherwise. Are you?

[ContinentalOp]

16. I'll admit that "soft brained hippy nonsense" was too far.

But while I agree with a lot of that stuff in theory I don't think it works within the reality of American politics. It's the old bringing a knife to a gunfight thing.

Let's take the media for example. In the face of a propaganda outlet like Fox News, what is the correct response? We all want the ideal of a fair and impartial news media. Should we put our faith in individual journalists to remain professional and unbiased and hopefully, over time, win out over the rest of the noise? Does the answer lie in groups like Media Matters or FAIR who can act as sober and persistent watchdogs? Or does it benefit us more to have somebody like Keith Olbermann to be our own biased loudmouth?

I think too often this attitude of "be the change," "don't stoop to their level" confuses the tactics for the message. The purple band-aids were not inherently wrong or despicable. They were a highly visual, memorable bit of political theater. The message they were conveying was a lie though. There's no reason why we can't use an equivalent stunt that actually conveys the truth. Maybe it's "nasty" or "too personal" and maybe it lowers the political discourse below the lofty ideal of rational discourse on important issues. But it works, and it really doesn't fundamentally go against anything I believe in as a liberal.

[laststeamtrain]

11. DEMS shouldn't do anything to REPS that REPS haven't done to DEMS.

Which means anything goes.

[Danger Mouse]

18. So it's okay to lie, distort, cheat, to win? Just because they did?

[laststeamtrain]

20. It's been said that Donald Segretti (or one of his...

rat fuck squad) gave LSD to Ed Muskie.

McInsane's already half-way there it seems.

I'd love to see him freak out in public.

I'd laugh & laugh & laugh.

There isn't enough bandwidth in the world for me to express how justified I'd feel about it.

[loyalsister]

13. One advantage to being an aetheist is I am not anti a different God

or any other belief. For me it's different ideas because of different personal experiences that's okay.
This way I simply assert my ethics and morality with no challenge to anyone else's.
I make no assertion of what I can prove or disprove. Thus I leave room for the possibility that I could be wrong sometime on some level in some way.

To act as the anti wastes time. To try to disolve the beliefs of the "other." wastes time and is actually an annoying effort for both parties.

My focus is on education. I am working on the campaign and working to reach the people who need to vote who often don't. Disaffected voters who have a self interest. Educate them about the positive changes that Obama will bring to influence their lives.

Focusing on the affirmative and positive flow of effort is not spiritual bunk. It is simply the opposite of wasting time tearing down the enemy and then making a negative assement after every effort when you can be contributing to the strength of this campaign and actually enjoy yourself doing it.

[lib2DaBone]

14. You are correct about the media....

They are totally owned by reich wing corporations, and as such, will always slam the Dems. Did anyone notice the pool camera coverage last night as provided by Faux News? Shameless, biased and bordering on criminal. Every time Michelle Obama talked , the jump shots would show someone yawning, or talking to their neighbor or being bored. Then, they would jump to a shot of a black person. What a way to promote unity... "I'm glad to know there were only bored black people at the convention last night." <snark> I would expect nothing less than this kind of slime from Faux news. The Dems need to be prepared to FIGHT BACK this time.. not like in '04 when they (Karl Rove)walked all over Kerry.

[GoesTo11]

15. It's bigger than one election

The Republicans spent 30 years building and seizing levers of power. Think tanks paying and supplying pundits, having allies buy media outlets or starting them; building the whole echo chamber network, paying off media, pushing memes, developing scripts and systems for vote fraud, partisan appointments to civil service jobs from the Department of Justice to the FCC to the Supreme Court. Simultaneously, they've been dismantling progressive power sources, like unions and pubic education (in that a good history and civics education favors Dems). We can't just do better at the same one-year tactics as them and hope to win. We have to win by building our own power levers. Obama's grassroots organization is one piece, the internet is another. Maybe, with luck and a favorable environment and excellent execution, these will be enough this one time, but we're still at a huge structural disadvantage. Dem leaders other than Dean and Obama have done very little to reverse these trends.

[TexasObserver]

19. That attack on Kerry was successful BECAUSE he was a door mat too long.

Contrary to your statements, being too soft is exactly why we routinely get our asses kicked by the GOP, which has no compunctions about playing rough. All this agonizing over harsh tactics is the fate of the Democratic party, because we have too many Care Bears, who do all their thinking with their emotions.

If you don't have the stomach for it, please stand aside while those of us who do have the stomach for it go about the party business of fighting back.

[Danger Mouse]

21. There's a difference between playing ROUGH and being an ASSHOLE.

I have NEVER said that we shouldn't play ROUGH.

[Eyes_wide_ open]

22. I'm feeling you big time, and agree wholeheartedly

and I'll go one step further and say I'd be willing to bet our candidate would back you also. How many of us actually were listening to him when he said he intended to bring a new kind of politics to Washington? I know I was, it impressed me mightily, and I don't believe for a second that was just political rhetoric. He spoke with the sincerity and conviction of a man that understands why so many Americans are so disillusioned with the political process that they won't even participate anymore. He also said we could win, and we could do it the right way. I believe him.

Seems to me that Rovian techniques have been highly successful in both Republican and Democratic circles. Republicans embraced them and have been successful with them, but even more insidious is that so many Democrats now seem to believe they are the only path to success. That's sad, and if we continue to let it rule our thoughts and actions it will doom us in the end.

Don't you see you cannot 'dabble' in Rovian techniques? The whole philosophy boils down to winning is everything, the ends justify the means, there are only winners and losers ... EVERYTHING else, principles, truth ... all are subservient to that. It's all about power. What do we know about power? Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. To use their methods, is to become like them. I won't go there. I can't stop anyone else from doing so, we are all still able to choose for ourselves, but I will do everything in my power to convince you not to.

Just 'laying down and taking it' is NOT 'taking the high road'. Laying down and taking it is just weak. We do have to fight, but we don't have to fight dirty to win. Obama didn't get this far this fast by not fighting. He's a smart fighter though, he just doesn't stand in the center of the ring and trade punches. He out thinks and out maneuvers his opponent. And he wins, it's been working so far, let's let him prove he can do it his way.

[bigwillq]

23. Now this post is something I could shake my keys to.

Right on EL! Great post. I agree with you 100 percent. :) :hi: :bounce:

We don't need to stoop to the GOPukes' level.