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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:42 PM
Original message
A Genuinely New Experience
Here's an experience I'm not used to having: genuine uncertainty about whether a plan initially proposed by the Bush administration would actually be a good thing.

I'm going to come out right now and say that a solid understanding of the workings of the financial industry is not my strong suit. This is one of the areas of domestic and international policy where I can maybe tell you what is just and what is fair, but when we get into what will actually work, I need to find someone else who can give me the run-down. I can stare at this $700 billion bailout as long as I want, but I will never have a prayer of forecasting the odds that it would actually do what it is supposedly designed to do.

Things I do know include:

1) Governing in crisis mode can be a sign of internal disorganization and disarray, but it can also be a tactic used to prevent people from defeating a proposal which would otherwise clearly generate strong opposition. We've seen that happen already with the Patriot Act and we know it is a favorite ploy of this administration. It is only natural that a lot of people here would immediately react against the bailout plan as a con job/coup/organized theft/etc. simply because it fits that pattern. It is possible that those people are right. But it is also possible they are wrong.

2) Nevertheless: this crisis itself is not imaginary. It is a real crisis. That doesn't mean the Bush administration is not exploiting it cynically in an attempt to increase executive power--that would certainly be in character for them--but I don't think you can look at what's going on in the market and the banking industry right now and tell me that we are not in big, bad, ugly scary trouble. The only question is how long that's going to last and how bad it's going to get, with or without the bailout. My brain cannot answer that question. My gut is answering, though, and my gut says, "DEPRESSION! AUGH!! DO NOT WANT!!!!!" Is my gut right? I don't know. Normally I woudl call in my head to evaluate the gut's response, but my head is, as I said above, totally fucking useless in this particular area.

3) Chicago school economists notwithstanding, capitalism is not rational. The market has moods, neuroses, binges, and bouts of irrational self-destructive behavior. The market has been swinging up and down for the past few days solely based on the *idea* of a bailout. One starts to wonder at this point whether you could stave off a market crash just by *saying* that the bill passed when it secretly didn't, and save us all $700 billion. Nevertheless, it is true that a capitalist economy can crash simply out of panic. Money has to circulate or else the whole thing dies; when people panic, they clutch their money close to them. I am a hoarder by nature myself. If I were about 10 years closer to retirement, I'd probably have already cashed out every investment I have. Ther eis the added problem that when there is a crisis of confidence, it's the people who refuse to panic initially--the cool, level headed ones, or the true believers, depending on your point of view--who get screwed the worst, because they stay in too long. Self interest says, if there's a run on the bank or a run on the market, pull yours out first. So selfinterest augments the effects of panic and hoo boy it doesn't bear thinking of.

4) Our destinies are unfortunately and unavoidably linked to those of the megabanks and investor giants. It is impossible to allow this crisis to kill Wall Street--as many people here seem to look forward to doing--without ordinary people getting caught up in the slaughter. Unemployment is going to be one immediate consequence. But let's say you keep your job through some miracle. If the bank failures start to cascade rather than trickle, well, what happens to our money? The FDIC cannot pay out enough to cover all the bank accounts that could conceivably go poof--at least not without printing play money that would drive up inflation. In a bad enough economic crisis, there is NO safe place to put your money, other than in food, water, and shelter. There is no mattress big enough.

5) Is it right or just to reward the people who caused the crisis by indemnifying them? No. Is the bailout also going to ultimately help the ordinary people who up till now have been screwed by said people? This to me is the more important question of the two; and it is, unfortunately, the one I can't answer on my own.

6) I hear a lot about people taking out bad mortgages and how this is really their fault. I have this to say: I think the subprime crisis is what happened when Milgrom met Mammon. There were a lot of people out there trying to generate mortgages by hook or by crook--often by crook. An entire industry developed around the project of getting more mortgages into existence so that they could be bundled into these securities which were then sold to investors; and banks no longer had to care about whether these loans got repaid or not (or so they thought) because they would just turn around and sell them to someone else. So all of a sudden, you have people deliberately hunting down people who would normally never be let near a mortgage and aggressively selling them on loans that are completely unrealistic. And this hard sell is targeting the segment of the population least likely to have any real financial literacy. Yeah, people have free will. History has also demonstrated time and time again that the human will is not often equal to the pressure of circumstances. The fact that so much of American mythology revolves around home ownership and getting rich quick through your own Yankee ingenuity doesn't help. Plus, the person signing the loan would have to be thinking: "This guy works for a bank. He's lending me money. He must think I'm capable of repaying it or why would he be doing it?" I mean, if you go to a loan shark, sure, you would have to know you're dicing with death. But this is the industry. It's supposed to have standards. You don't know anything about this crap. Why not believe him, since he's offering you something you want?

So yeah, you can blame people for taking out loans they can't repay. But spare a little blame for the bastards who conned them into it as well. And anyhow, you'd be doing a lot of frickin' blaming if you take that attitude, because from what I can figure out most Americans operate in debt and in a LOT of it and it's that alone that has kept the economy afloat--and so Americans have been encouraged to buy more and go in deeper, to keep consuming because it keeps the economy going. Well, we've about reached the end of that road...for now.

Cause here's the other thing I know:

7) This isn't the first time this has happened. It will not be the last. The boom/bust cycle and the regulation/no regulation cycle are both well-established and pretty well in synch. You'd think the market would figure out that deregulation is, in the long run, very bad for it. YOu'd think, but you'd be wrong. Because everyone always wants to jump on the hot new thing and milk what they can and then get out before the bubble pops and they just don't think about what happens to the next guy or in the next year. Which is exactly why we cannot let the financial sector regulate itself. It's not good for us, and it's not even good for them.

So am I glad the bailout failed? I have no frickin' idea. I'm scared, I can tell you that much. But I guess at least we'll find out what the consequences of inaction are; and who knows, maybe they'll turn out to be not as bad as the consequences of action.

@#$!,

The Plaid Adder
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. A blank check for Paulson, with no oversight, was never CLOSE to being a good idea.
So don't worry about that. :hi:
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Well, obviously.
But say, OK, there's oversight now, the check is in instalments, there's some language abotu protecting homeowners, blah de blah. Is it OK now? I dunno.

sigh,

The plaid Adder
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. It might not hurt that much with the right language..
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 04:38 PM by girl gone mad
but we're still throwing good money at a very bad derivatives market that is in trouble to the tune of Trillions. Once we start down this path, we could be looking at a final bill of $5 Trillion and massive currency deflation.

Here's a plan I like, btw:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x44442
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. The "safeguards" are bullshit....
There is way to prevent the top execs from awarding themselves tens or hundreds of millions for the "hard work" they do. And this crap about the banks paying us back is a joke because they can just go bankrupt before the deadline and never pay a cent back. I didn't make this up. People a lot smarter than me say so and I believe because these things are always packaged in a way to make them politically acceptable but the wiseguys at the top know that in the end they will skate away with everything they "deserve."
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Obviously so. That wasn't what was being voted on today.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very well stated. I feel ambivalent. I don't know what is right and what is wrong,
and I'm a bit troubled by those who are absolutely certain on either side of the argument.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. If you look at how it breaks down,
the best explanations I've seen in favor of the bailout have been from small business owners (or people who present as small business owners, anyway). They're the ones who have to deal with the credit crisis. The most violent rejections of the bailout tend to proceed on the assumption that what is good for the Bush administration and/or their cronies in the financial sector HAS to be bad for us. Not an unreasonable assumption by any means; but not *necessarily,* in this case, accurate.

Ambivalence is a painful place, especially when your money is in there with you.

:argh:

The Plaid Adder
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think that the whole discussion got derailed on point 5


The plan should not 'reward' mortgage related failures. Those shareholders, like WaMu shareholders are losing their equity and obviously no plan should help any equity position.


Now the question is should all of the other businesses that had nothing to do with mortgages should now be wiped off the board and all of their employees lose their job because people want to punish the 'paper traders'.

Should your local baker or local solar energy sub contractor lose their businesses simply because there is not enough cash to give them a regular OD privledge even though they have good credit and collateral.


Other than that I think your OP was very well thought out.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. My sentiments exactly.
K&R
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. I was swayed by the number of economists, of good stature, and not all repukes,
that were against it.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. Right you are, PA!
My guts tells me depression is bad, but a stronger part of my gut is warning me to keep a cool head and not blindly panic and rush into anything because the last eight years have been rife with this kind of BS and we are all the worse for it. In the words of the immortal Chimperor, "There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again."

Erm, come to think of it, that statement is just as confusing as the bailout clusterf*ck. :crazy:
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. That's where I'm at--I just don't know
But regardless of what happens, I am convinced that without Obama in the WH come Jan, it's going to get even worse out here.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. Confused? Read this thread from earlier today by David Swanson: Why the Bailout vote may fail.
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MooseGoose Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks for the post.
You summarized how I feel, even when I wasn't aware of what I was feeling. I feel there is a real situation that needs resolution, but haven't the knowledge to judge good from bad. The "Hurry! Hurry!" shouts from this administration send off alarms that they are up to no good. The original 3-page paper sounded like a joke. Not a funny one, but a joke nonetheless. Economics is so fuzzy, it's hard to believe that anyone can claim what the best course is with certainty. So I'm trying to find a unicorn -- consensus among economists -- and on a limited schedule since that's not my day job. At least the nearness of the elections is serving to keep many in Congress working for the voters.

For now I'm just reminding myself that we can weather a lot, and hope that people don't get stampeded into something we all regret.
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LonelyLRLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. Me, too - and what about those credit default swaps?
I have been trying to wrap my mind around why anyone would be on the paying end of one of those (if I even have a clue about how they work), and what role those are playing in this mess.

I respect Robert Reich's opinion, and he said today that we are going to have a deep recession next year, with or without a bailout. He also said this is NOT economic Armegeddon.
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BlueKansan Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. They have done a terrible sales job
I have been so disappointed to see liberal bloggers condemning the plan as a bail out of Wall Street fat cats. Forget listening to Bush and Paulsen. Listen to our nation's business leaders. Listen to Warren Buffett and Jack Welch. Listen to Paul Krugman, the esteemed professor or economics and frequent critic of the Bush policies. Ultimately, they all agreed that any plan will stink, but no plan will grind our economy to a halt. Last week, Krugman was condemning the Paulsen plan. This morning, he said the current plan was worth voting for. That was encouraging.

This isn't a bail out. It's a credit crisis. It is not about giving greedy Wall St. types a free pass and golden parachutes. It's about banks being able to extend credit to consumers and businesses. The hysterical low-info response of the American people caused this plan to fail. House representatives running for office in a month's time are terrified their constituents will give them the boot -- so they are bowing to voter ignorance. It isn't much different than lawmakers voting for the Iraq war resolution when 80% of Americans thought it was a good idea. Look where that got us. Sorry folks, but sometimes, the American people don't know what the hell is good for them or our country. That's why we have to stop electing people we'd like to have a beer with.

For an administration that has been so keen to put attractive names on stinky propositions, I can't believe how badly this plan was sold. They called it a bail out. The salesman was George W. Bush. No wonder it failed.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. That was my dad's take on it when I called him this afternoon.
He said, "It's a communication problem." His POV is that people just don't understand what the bailout is supposed to do because it hasn't been presented properly--mainly b/c most of the House politicians don't really understand it either.

Ah well. It is what it is, I guess, and right now it is a 777 point drop in the Dow. Who knows, maybe tomorrow purple hippos will fall from the sky and give us all golden coins and chocolate. It's an anything-can-happen kind of year.

The Plaid Adder
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JuniorPlankton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. Reminds me of that memorable exchange in Blackadder
"Baldrick! Thank you for introducing me to a genuinely new experience.

What experience is that?

Being pleased to see you!"

I find particularly ironic, since it is followed by "what are you doing here, you revolting
animal?"


:dilemma:
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mgc1961 Donating Member (874 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. Sweet surrender
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