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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:54 AM
Original message
"Swiftboating" doesn't work against likeable people

In 1992, the GOP threw every "swiftboat" meme they could at Clinton, trying to change the subject from an economy in recession.

"Clinton's a communist. What was his trip to Moscow all about REALLY?"

"Clinton's a draft-dodger who loathes the military."

"Clinton has been involved in shady land deals with shady characters in Arkansas."

"Clinton's wife is a feminazi."



In 1998 and 1999.... The GOP tried to freaking IMPEACH the guy. And all they did was drive Clinton's approval ratings through the roof.



Obama is Bubba 2.0.


He's likeable. "Swiftboat" tactics don't work on him, except with people who were going to vote Republican anyway.



Swiftboating worked on Kerry. Kerry's a great guy, but he's aloof and not as likeable. He doesn't have "it" like Obama does.

Swiftboating worked on Dukakis. He was milquetoast, bland, and emotionless. He didn't have "it" either.


On the other side... our best attacks failed against Reagan.... because no matter what we said, people inately liked the guy.



In Presidential elections, people generally want a president they like. They don't like McCain, and they generally like Obama.


No two elections are alike. Those that are worried about "swiftboating" are still fighting the last campaign. Our football team has a better quarterback this time...much better. The other team's defensive tactics that worked in the 2004 matchup will not work against our current team.


Nervous Nellies: It is *NOT* 2004. Obama is *NOT* Kerry. Repeat that to yourselves as often as is necessary.


Get over "Swiftboating" and "Willie Horton". Those tactics worked because our candidate wasn't good enough. Those tactics failed in '92 and '96 (and now in '08) because our candidate *IS* good enough.


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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. I kind of thought Kerry was likeable
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Democrats generally did... independents didn't.


But independents DO like Obama.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Kerry won the Independents and won 2004 - RNC stole that election for Bush and DNC let them do it.
.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Good thing we have a non-DLC DNC now. nt
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Claire Beth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. I'm inclined to agree with you on this... n/t
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Marsala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Likeable, yes. Charismatic, not so much.
The same went double for Gore, unfortunately.
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grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. kind of?
:hi: if he had won we could have liked him better :):):) i just forgot about him for a few years :)
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I liked him, he just had long answers
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grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. i get tired of listening after awhile. there is a zen to speaking :):)
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. not really. I supported him wholeheartedly after Dean dropped
but I never warmed to him.
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cameozalaznick Donating Member (624 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
37. I was a Kerry hater
who voted for Kerry anyway. Never really liked him. I wanted Edwards in 2004.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. How does a Dem CITIZEN 'never like' the one lawmaker who did more than any other
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 10:53 AM by blm
lawmaker of the last 35 years to expose government corruption and block the fascist path this nation has been on the last 4 decades?

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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
39. I thought (and still think) Kerry is a douchebag and I was not alone among Dems
In fact I think a huge part of the problem with 2004 and why it was close enough to steal was that far too many of us were ABB (self included). The focus wasn't so much about getting Kerry elected but stopping Bush by any means necessary. It's a fine line of difference but a crucial one and I think that's why we didn't get a theft-proof margin. People don't generally respond well to negativity, even if they generally agree with you.

This time is way different though, and why I think we've got a solid chance at getting the D back in the White House.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. You might very well be right. Once people see and hear Obama,
it's apparent the smear is untrue. Obama brings out the best in people, unlike McCain/Palin who bring out the worst.
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grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. i like kerry--he used to talk too much--
i saw a vid on him not talking too much but just enough & he was good!!!& likable... probably some of his overtalking is a survival skill he needed to make it in washington! :shrug:
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elkston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. Very good points. If Obama is already likeable, its difficult for these attack to penetrate (eom)
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think voters get desensitized to it after a while
Independent voters are cynical anyways, and ignore most of the political BS
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. it's harder against someone who's likable, but it's not impossible.
And Obama is a black guy with a "funny" name. How many white Americans are more prone to believe smears about him because of that?
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I firmly believe that 99% of those that believe the smears were ALWAYS going to vote GOP

They were unreachable.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
41. Then you just contradicted your OP.
BTW - Kerry won the Independents.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
13. I know some Vietnam Vets who felt betrayed by Kerry
Most of them still voted for him because they didn't want Bush to get back in. Some didn't vote at all.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. This is a dumb line of reasoning
So, let me get this right, Max Cleland was defeated in 2002 because he wasn't cuddly enough?

National security concerns, the effects of holding a nationalized election so close to 9/11 and a huge advantage in money didn't really matter. Just the fact that Max wasn't cuddly.

Ah, there are all kinds of reasons for a loss within any given year. There is an old axiom that contains a lot of truth, "Defeat contains the seeds of victory; victory contains the seeds of defeat."

Many, many, many people have worked their butts off doing door-to-door work, raised money, made millions of phone calls and damn near killed themselves to raise money. And it all comes down to who you find cuddly or not?

That is a truly dumb line of reasoning that puts too much emphasis on one person. Obama will not win just because he is Barack Obama. (Nor would he lose for that reason, should that happen.) He is TEAM OBAMA, as we are a Democratic Team. You learn the lessons of the past as a TEAM or you continue to fail.

This line of reasoning contains the seeds for the next Democratic defeat. (see, it's all the candidate's fault.) How sad and pathetic.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. On a NATIONAL level, the candidate's "likeability factor" matters MUCH more than local races

Name the last President who won despite being less likeable than his opponent by the majority of the electorate?

Nixon maybe?


In general, the most likeable candidate wins in NATIONAL elections.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. You're SO RIGHT - that's why BushInc had to work 24/7 to STEAL 2000 and 2004.
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 10:23 AM by blm
Do you not understand what the core matters are in the US attorney firing scandal? It's election fraud - fraud being set up even before 2002 and ramped up for 2004.
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. You make good points, but the OP did not say anything about being "cuddly."
"Cuddly" and "likable" are not synonyms.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. Cleland is as likeable and charming as a person can get.
.
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. I like him, but that wasn't my point.
I also like Kerry.

My point was that "cuddly" and "likable" aren't synonyms, so TayTay was trying to ascribe a meaning to the OP's post that wasn't there.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I get you. BTW...who really saw Bush - a guy who stuck firecrackers in frogs - as likeable?
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 10:48 AM by blm
The MEDIA sold Bush from 2000-2006 until they could no longer fool the public into believing he was honest....or...a straightshooter...or....stoic....or....resolute.
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. That has always baffled me.
How anyone could find that selfish, arrogant cretin likable is beyond me.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Which is why it is APPARENT to me that alot of this 'conventional wisdom' the corpmedia sells is
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 12:19 PM by blm
horseshit designed to distract from reality. And what AMAZES me is that there are Democrats STILL willing to hang their hats on that horseshit.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. BULLSHIT POST - Neither Clinton or Obama were swiftboated - and you don't focking know history
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 10:15 AM by blm
Clinton won because Bush1 NEEDED to lose because JOHN KERRY'S report on BCCI was being released in Dec 1992 and he expected to be impeached and he and his powerful cronies would be exposed.

Your 'LIKEABLE' Clinton protected GHWBush and his benefactor Jackson Stephens and other BCCI operators throughout the 90s.

Swiftboating is when a LIE IS CONSTRUCTED and there is a coordinated media campaign funded by millions of dollars and given full attention by the corporate media outlets for MONTHS without allowing any counter arguments the airtime.

I don't just LIKE Kerry - I respect him more than any lawmaker of the last 35 years because he nearly singlehandedly blocked the fascist march this country has been on for decades and did so with many powerful members of his own party working to PROTECT the fascists and against Kerry.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oy
:silly:

Bush 1 lost on purpose to cover up a report? Be careful crossing the street...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. He fully expected to be impeached after BCCI report. Apparently you're unaware of the report's
findings and its request for further scrutiny in 20 areas still outstanding.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. omg. you've really gone over the edge with your kerrycentric view
of history and you actually seem to believe that you can define "swiftboating".

Let's deconstruct: There is NO fucking evidence for your claim that bush deliberately sought to lose, and guess what? Nothing happened to bush sr, due to Kerry's report. That's right. Zilch. Nothing. Nada.

If you're so blind that you can't see that Clinton was indeed likable and charismatic- something that John Kerry, admirable as is, is not, you need to think again. What he did or didn't do with Stephens has jackshit to do with whether or not he's likable.

Swiftboating has become shorthand for unfair and untrue smears against the character of a candidate. And sorry, even Kerry has admitted that his campaign did not respond in a timely or forceful enough manner to the swiftboat attacks.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. You have no clue what BCCI is about and your post proves it.
Clinton protected Bush and Stephens so nothing would happen - you are welcome to cite what Bill DID do with the report he was handed when he took office...you know, the one with TWENTY OUTSTANDING MATTERS.

Oh look....NOTHING important to see her....cali sez so....

\
APPENDICES

Matters For Further Investigation

There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al-Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.

9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.

10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.

11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.

12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.

13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.

14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.

15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.

17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.

18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.

19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.

20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Actually, I do have some idea about BCCI
but I've never bought the whole Clinton/Stephens thing. That's largely unsubstantiated. And you are simply over the edge. I mean really over the edge. You view absolutely EVERYTHING that happens or has happened over the 20+ years through the prism of BCCI and your obsession with Kerry as some sort of savior. It's just sad.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Apparently you DON'T understand BCCI if you think it has nothing to do with the last 20yrs.
.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. He responded to the attacks harder than any other candidate ever has - especially when he
challenged Bush to stop hiding behind the swifts and come out and publicly debate their services during Vietnam, and he did it in front of the Firefighters Convention - firefighters who had endorsed him.

THAT was a hardball move.

No news network would broadcast Kerry's speech and few reported it, and even fewer showed the clips.

Eric Boehlert has written about the corporate media's refusal to air Kerry's counters to swifts. You might try reading his well-researched book or at least some of the articles about it in the Research Forum here at DU.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. Exactly correct
Kerry never had the kind of positives Obama does.

I liked Kerry, as did we all, but indy's did not, so it was easy for them to latch on to some 'reason" that would explain their affective displeasure.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
27. Perhaps, but there is an extra variable this time nt
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. Democrats FINALLY Get It
and aren't letting the media get away with it this time. Nobody tried to swiftboat Bill Clinton.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. DNC is actually working FOR the nominee and Dem voters the last 4yrs. Past DNC chairs would NOT
and let the party infrastructure collapse in too many states as they stayed with their DC centric agenda to serve the needs of the Clintons.
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iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
33. There is some truth to this.
Ans some people simply vote for the most 'likeable' candidate.

Fortunately for us the McCain of 2008 is not as likeable as the Mccain of 2000.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
42. "'Swiftboating' doesn't work against likeable people"? That's dumb
Swiftboating has been exposed. You seem to forget the negative attacks (Wright, "bitter," Ayers) that gave Obama a lot of problems in the primary. There were some here posting at the height of some of these attacks that they were the end for Obama.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Plus, if the Dem wasn't running well, GOP wouldn't HAVE TO resort to swiftboating and election fraud
to stay in power, would they?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. The revisionism is ridiculous.
Obama has had to fight back a lot of BS to overcome the media noise and RW smear.

The cries to ignore stuff is beyond ridiculous, as people continue to charge that Kerry didn't respond.

Now trying to claim that Kerry wasn't likeable in another attempt to justify the RW BS spin. Trend:

Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International.
Oct. 14-15, 2004. N=1,004 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 4.

"Next, please tell me if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of the
following people in politics. If I mention someone you had never heard of before
this interview, just tell me. What about John Kerry? Do you have a favorable or
unfavorable opinion of him?" Feb. 2004 and earlier, question ends with: ". . .
or had you never heard of him before this interview?"

......................Favorable....Unfavorable....Never Heard Of....Unsure
% % % %
10/14-15/04.........51..............44...................-...................5
9/30 - 10/2/04......52..............40...................-...................8
9/9-10/04............48..............44...................1...................7
9/2-3/04..............45..............46...................0...................9
7/29-30/04...........53..............37...................2...................8
7/8-9/04..............52..............36...................3...................9
5/13-14/04...........47..............36...................3.................14
4/8-9/04..............51..............34...................3.................12
3/25-26/04...........51..............35...................2.................12
3/18-19/04...........51..............36...................3.................10
2/19-20/04...........56..............27...................5.................12
1/29-30/04...........57..............24...................5.................14
1/22-23/04...........54..............25...................8.................13
12/11-12/03.........33..............34..................16.................17

Among Democrats/Leaners only:
2/19-20/04...........85...............5....................3..................7
1/29-30/04...........82...............7....................4..................7
1/22-23/04...........74...............7....................8................11
1/8-9/04..............53..............16..................15................16
12/11-12/03.........50..............20..................16................14
9/03....................52.............12...................23................13

Check out dates coinciding with the convention (end of July), Swift Liars smear month (August), and months after (September and October). Also check out Dems leaners. Dragged down by Repubs? Hmmmm!

Gallup Poll. July 25-28, 2005. N=1,010 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"We'd like to get your overall opinion of some people in the news. As I read
each name, please say if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of these
people -- or if you have never heard of them. How about John Kerry?"
1/2-5/04 and earlier: "Massachusetts Senator John Kerry"

.....................Favorable...Unfavorable...Never Heard Of...Unsure

7/25-28/05............42............48............3......................7
10/29-31/05..........52............43 ............-......................5
9/13-15/04............51............44............-......................5
9/3-5/04...............53............43............-......................4
8/23-25/04............52............40............1......................7
7/30 - 8/1/04.........57............37............1......................5
7/19-21/04.............55............37...........2......................6
7/8-11/04..............56............34............2......................8
7/6/04
reg. voters ...........50 ............41 ...........1......................8
6/21-23/04...........58............35.............2.......................5
4/16-18/04...........54............37.............3.......................6
3/26-28/04...........53............36.............3.......................8
2/16-17/04...........60............26.............4.....................10
1/29 - 2/1/04........61............23.............6.....................10
1/2-5/04..............31............32............19.....................18
11/03..................31............24............26.....................19
12/02..................31............13............32.....................24
2/99...................30............9..............39.....................22


The RW/media pushed the "aloof" "not likeable" message, and the OP bought it (or it may be just the OP's opinion).




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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
44. LIkeable is in the eyes of the beholder. I do not find Clinton likeable. I like Kerry and Obama.
Edited on Thu Oct-09-08 11:04 AM by Mass
But thanks for your opinion.

BTW, Clinton got only 42 % of the vote, so your argument does not even work. A lot of people found him very unlikeable (for good and bad reasons).
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
45. ELECTION FRAUD worked because McAuliffe's DNC sat on its hands for 4yrs and LET IT HAPPEN.
YOU believe Bush was likable and ran a great campaign? Then why did they NEED to 'swiftboat'.... and purge Dem voters.... and rig machines to win?
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
49. agreed.
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