Question: Why is it that we're only hearing about the plight of the middle class

[mtnsnake]

and very little about poverty and the lower class?

I'm not trying to take anything away from Obama's brilliant campaign, but I'm just wondering how poor people might be taking all of this, considering how the middle class has often been living above their means, while poor people have been living as poor people, regardless. What about them? :shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. I have the same question.

I understand the importance of the middle class, but I don't think they should be exclusively targeted.

[roguevalley]

79. maybe because if we can stabilize the great middle, more jobs

can come and we can pull everyone into the lifeboat. if everyone is drowning, no one can save anyone. When the middle class was good, the amount of poor were less and people were actually making moves to go up.

[ShortnFiery]

2. Two Words for present day America:

Baby Steps :shrug:

[RoadRage]

55. Because Independants HATE Welfare.

Independants are the target audiance right now. And, Obama's tax policy is already partly scary to them.. no need for Obama to scare them further by taking any stance about giving more to the poor. Instead of giving more to them, he wants to help them be able to help themselves by getting jobs, getting into public service, etc. to make a better future for themselves. Make costs of living more affordable so that a $30,000 a year job comes closer to making ends meet for a family of 4 instead of keeping that family in poverty (and I realize that $30,000 is generous in some areas).

[HERVEPA]

3. Absolutely Agree. The Invisible (to the candidates) Poor (nT)

[Merlot]

4. I've thought that too. Possibly the "middle class" is the majority?

And a lot of poor people might want to think of themselve as middle class or almost middle class.

Maybe Americans don't want to think that poverty exists here.

[nxylas]

26. My thoughts exactly

I've heard enough people in blue-collar jobs or with no job at all describe themselves as "middle class" that I think if Obama were to talk about "the poor", most of the people he was talking about would think he was talking about someone else and not them. And since people, however altruistic they may consider themselves, primarily vote in their own interests, there'd be no political mileage in it. Sad but true.

[surrealAmerican]

69. It's a sad reality that...

... almost ALL Americans consider themselves middle-class, unless they are homeless or billionaires.

[raccoon]

62. Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

"Maybe Americans don't want to think that poverty exists here."

A GREAT MANY of them don't. Don't you know this is the greatest country in the world? Don't you know everyone is clamoring to come here? Don't you know if they're poor it's their own damn fault and they are just sorry/lazy/drug addicted/all of the above?

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[TooRaLoo]

5. I agree with you, but

more people can return from poverty or stop being poor if we can start providing jobs. It won't solve the problem, but there will be less poverty. Education is another big issue for Obama, and that will help a lot.

[stray cat]

6. Because to help the lower class Obama has to get elected

And the repubs will really push the socialism meme at that point

[TooRaLoo]

7. Yep. They'd paint him as a "hippie" if he focused on that right now.

Sad but true.

[WeDidIt]

8. The poor and lower classes don't vote in large percentages

A much larger percentage of middle class Americans vote and the middle class makes up teh overwhelming majority of the nation.

Plus, of those lower class Americans who do vote, most consider themselves to be middle class.

[mtnsnake]

17. Sadly, I agree with the premise of your post, except for the last sentence

Plus, of those lower class Americans who do vote, most consider themselves to be middle class

That part I don't agree with. Before I got my own business going years ago, I worked alongside poor people in a sawmill. I was one of them for 8 years. What I found was that they/we were proud to be working at a tough job (physical labor intensive), but none of them/us ever considered themselves to be anything close to middle class, even though they all provided for their families and they/we were all as happy as anyone in the middle class seemed.

[asdjrocky]

70. "Lower class".... wow.

So who is this "upper class"? I guess the amount of class you have depends on the amount of money you have in your pocket.

I would suggest you think about the way you look at things and the words you use. I'm really not trying to challenge you here, or insult you, but I believe using the term lower class is much like saying negro to describe an African American.

[olkaz]

9. BECAUSE THERE IS NO MIDDLE CLASS ANYMORE

Why this isn't obvious, I have no idea.

[frickaline]

73. Thank you.

You are completely correct imo.

[SeaLyons]

10. I'm hoping that Michelle takes on poverty as

her project.

[soleft]

11. Didn't work very well for John Edwards

[kwyjibo]

82. At least he kept US talking about it. I haven't seen much mention of poverty at DU lately.

I wish he was still able to be involved in the campaign.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

12. I think it's the same reason Obama can't be seen soliciting Arab-American votes.

No need to fuel this "He's an Arab terrorist Muslim spy!" nonsense. Similarly, he cannot give quotes to those who would exploit the fear that he's trying to establish a Liberal Mega Nanny State where honest white workers will be paying for lazy black urban welfare queens. We all know that a philosophy of fairness, equity, and opportunity benefits the poor. (We also know that black urban folk are not the real welfare queens.) But, heck, if saying he wants to give the little guy a chance to make it is fodder for the "socialism" frenzy, what would happen if he addressed anything but the middle class?

[Justyce]

13. Election strategy, trying to win over any

middle-class undecideds or middle-class republicans who don't like McCain. Obama already has the support of the "lower" class. This is still about getting enough votes right now -- fixing things comes later.

[mtnsnake]

53. Makes sense to me. n/t

[Betsy Ross]

14. This has troubled me too. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

15. A working tax-paying middle class lifts the economy and rebuts the ubiquitous "welfare" charge.

I would like Barack to point out that ignoring the poor isn't particularly christ-like, but then again I think the "religious" GOP have long since abandoned emulating the christ in "christian." They also seem to forget that their demigod, Reagan, instituted the Earned Income Credit.

[mtnsnake]

24. I was thinking about the "welfare" charge, too, but it's an insult to equate poor people to welfare

(and I know that isn't what you were doing, btw.)

In my area there is a significant percentage of the population that is poor but proudly working at what many of us would call "lesser" jobs. Welfare would the last option on their minds. These are proud people and would only accept welfare if it was absolutely necessary.

But I agree with you. I think that's one of the reasons why they haven't been targeted in this campaign....the "welfare charge" as you say...and how the right wing would tie that to socialism.

[AtomicKitten]

31. I recall during Katrina the GOP callously confused welfare with working poor.

Not that that matters when people are drowning :mad:, but it showcased the shameful disdain felt by some in our country toward the poor.

I can understand Obama's strategy in pursuing the road of less resistance in his rhetoric, but I also completely agree with note being made of the absence of discussion of helping the poor in this country. That's something I believe will change when Obama demonstrates what America being the shining light on the hill actually looks like.

[mtnsnake]

38. I agree. I think once he's in office, he'll address the plight of the lower class, too

Anyway, I am not complaining at all about his campaign strategy of focusing on the middle class because he seems to be doing magnificently so far, and the bottom line is that we have to win, period. Once he's in, I'll worry more about who he's addressing and who he isn't. I was just wondering whether or not the poor class of working people feels a little left out of the discussion by both candidates.

[Lerkfish]

16. because a healthy middle class raises all boats, a healthy upper class sinks all but them

[prolesunited]

18. BTW, not all middle class were living above their means

and through job loss, health care costs really are poor. We acquired things when we were doing better, but now we are poor.

[mtnsnake]

25. Of course not. That's why I said the middle class has "often" been living above their means. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

19. Ignoring your broad and unsubstantiated slam against the middle class for a moment,

it's because low income people as a rule don't vote Republican, and wealthy people as a rule do, but the self-perceived middle class can be swayed. Since many who think of themselves as middle class are feeling the pinch, it's a good time to persuade them that the Dems have more to offer than the Repubs.

That said, the lack of discussion about poverty solutions is a stump speech omission, not a platform one so I'm hoping that after the election poverty moves front and center again.

[mtnsnake]

28. How exactly did I slam the middle class? Please inform me.

BTW, what on earth leads you to believe that "low income people as a rule don't vote Republican"? In my experience I've never seen anything close to that.

[Gormy Cuss]

56. Here: "considering how the middle class has often been living above their means.."

That was unsubstantiated.
There are certainly a great many people in this country living beyond their means, but to suggest that it's a problem only for the middle class ignores that it's across a broader spectrum and also makes no effort to quantify the portion of the middle class that is living beyond their means.


As for my comment about income and party preference, that's supported by the literature, much of it not readily available online.

However, in Andrew Gelman's work exploring differences in that pattern at the state level contains many citations to previous studies on the national trends:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/06/04/gelman.html

And then there is the issue that lower income people historically are less likely to be registered and vote than those with higher incomes (here's a brief discussion by Chomsky on that and a link to census estimates for 2004)
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200102--.htm

http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p20-556.pdf

[mtnsnake]

58. "often" is the key word. If I had said "always" you might have a point.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because all anyone has to do to see that the middle class has often been living above their means is to look around. Check out how many people are stretched financially just because of their loans for things they can't really afford. Not all but many.

but to suggest that it's a problem only for the middle class ignores that it's across a broader spectrum and also makes no effort to quantify the portion of the middle class that is living beyond their means.

I never said or implied that it was a problem ONLY for the middle class. Stop putting your words into my mouth.

[Gormy Cuss]

72. I will concede that you didn't say that it was *only* a problem for the middle class.

For that I apologize.

However, "often" implies frequent, common, et cetera. Fact of the matter is that you offer nothing to substantiate that claim. I have checked out how many people are stretched financially. According the the 2004 Survey of Consumer Finances (Federal Reserve) it's the lowest income people (i.e. those with incomes in the lowest quintile) who have the highest debt payment to income ratio and that ratio decreases with each step up the income ladder. Of the 75% of households who have credit cards, 42% carry no debt and only ~ 7% of their debt is in the form of debts for goods and services -- the largest amount of debt is connected to mortgages. More to the point, the rate of debtors with payments outstanding for 60 days or more also is relatively low (~ 16% of households in the lowest quintile, 14% in the second quintile, and 10% in the third quintile.) So although this is not direct data to negate your statements, the overall findings in the SCF do no suggest that the middle class have debt just because they're buying things they can't afford.

[carlotta]

20. Bill Clinton brought up poverty in the rally last night

It really struck me, because, as noted, that segment of the population has not been mentioned in this campaign. Clinton spoke about how not only the middle class, but those living in poverty need to be a part of the American success story (paraphrasing). It needed to be said.

[TragedyandHope]

33. Yes, that jumped out at me too. Clinton actually said the P-word, "poor"

[ecstatic]

37. Bill Clinton has that luxury. Unfortunately, Obama doesn't

Besides, Obama shares a common story with many who are in poverty--single mother, missing dad. I think the link is implied even though it may not be overtly stated.

[snooper2]

21. The middle class drives the economy

nt

[Overseas]

22. Because the country has been pushed so far to the right

that helping the poor is considered giving your hard earned money away to people who won't work for it.

Republicans prefer the needy to beg for every scrap they get and crawl to the church doors to plead their cases.

They don't want anonymous government assistance, they want their own selves to get Extra Special Heaven Points for helping people.

[Naturyl]

81. Bingo.

All true.

The biggest success of the neo-conservative movement has been to completely erase poverty as a viable issue and make the word "welfare" dirty.

[RichGirl]

23. Watch the end of his speech at the Al Smith dinner....

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=QkBQf4FJi-o

He is clearly thinking about the poor and I have no doubt that he WILL help them. He DOES need to get elected first. They are already accusing him of taking money from working people to give to non-working people even though the bulk of the non-working are children, handicap/disabled or elderly. Now is not the time to clear up misconceptions.

[stillcool]

27. because people do not..

like to think of themselves as 'poor' people.

[grantcart]

29. The reality is that almost everyone in America identifies themselves as middle class

There have been lots of surveys of very rich and very poor people and they will routinely identify themselves as middle class even if their present circumstances are clearly not in the middle.

Steven Spielberg gets up early in the morning fixes his kids breakfast and takes them to school every morning - despite what is in his bank account his life still reflects a 'middle class lifestyle'.

Jay Leno has never cashed a single tonight show check for personal use. He continues to make 150 personal appearences lives off that and intends to use the tonight money for charity.

Similarly most people that have dropped below the poverty line perceive it as a temporary move and that they are still middle class even if their income doesn't reflect it.

[mtnsnake]

45. None of the poor people Ive worked with in the past have ever thought of themselves as middle class

Most of them are proud to be working at a job, most seem happy, but none of them think they are middle class, at least not the ones I know.

[grantcart]

59. Interesting - how do they articulate that to you?

[mtnsnake]

61. Before I started working for myself I worked in a sawmill for 8 years

alongside with other poor working people 10 hours a day doing hard physical labor and proud of having that job. Not one of the men I worked with ever considered themselves to be middle class. If they considered themselves to be middle class, which they didn't, they wouldn't mention the words "I can't afford" all the time whenever talking about a nicer car than the 10 or 15 yr old car they had, food bills, a decent home instead of an old trailer, a college education for their kid, hockey equipment for their kids, and right on down the line. These were hard working people making a few cents above minimum wage. I've been right there with them, so I know what I'm talking about.

[grantcart]

64. yes I am sure you know what your talking about

but you have said that they don't consider themselves middle class which means that they were specifically articulating a different class identification, and in all honesty that is not a class identification. I haven't done any mass interviews on the subject but I was struck talking with a number of homeless people who had good skills but just weren't working and they still identified themselves as being middle class but on a 'break'.

So exactly how did these working poor articulate themselves as being in a subclass?


My understanding is that academic research has found that subjective identification of class identity also finds virtually no one identifying themselves as being in a sub class or poor. In this study 95% of the people identified themselves as either working class or middle class with 5% identifying themselves as rich.

http://www.gesis.org/fileadmin/upload/dienstleistung/daten/soz_indikatoren/Schluesselindikatoren_en/socecon.pdf

[mtnsnake]

65. The thing is,

When you asked me to explain how they articulated that they weren't middle class, I did my best to explain how. I never said they articulated themselves as being in a subclass, particularly, just that they never said anything that sounded like anyone in a middle class would normally say. They never made any claims as to being middle class, either by their words or their actions, nor did they ever come right out and say anything like, "I'm a poor person."

In this study 95% of the people identified themselves as either working class or middle class with 5% identifying themselves as rich.

Well, wouldn't you agree that "working class" includes poor people who have jobs, too?

[grantcart]

78. What I consider them to be is completely irrelevent.

The point is what do people consider themselves - this goes to answer your quetion why is the politics only talking about middleclass and sometimes working class - because people don't put themselves into the 'underclass' 'poor' or whatever other class you want to describe it.

I find your comments in reply 61 to be illustrative of my point - (BTW when I was younger I worked in a saw mill on the 'pull line' pulling the finished cuts off the line - we all thought we were well paid because we knew so many other guys who didn't make 1/2 what we made)

"Before I started working for myself I worked in a sawmill for 8 years
alongside with other poor working people 10 hours a day doing hard physical labor and proud of having that job. Not one of the men I worked with ever considered themselves to be middle class"

You worked alongside them and they didn't consider themselves 'middleclass'. Did you? Did you consider yourself part of the poor in America? A couple of years ago medical situation caused me to go so low that I got a nice EIC check when I filed my taxes. I knew that for that year I was below the poverty line by subjectively I still considered myself in the middle class.

The number of people who think of themselves as being a part of a 'poverty' class is very small. The number of those people who go and vote smaller too.

When they talk of 'middle class' most people in the working class consider themselves as apart of the middle class and that is why there is almost no traction in talking about the poverty issue. I liked Edwards and was for him in 2004 and 2008 but I think we have to admit that not enough of the working poor identify themselves as poor to make this a viable seperate talking point in a national election - it has to be tied into the plight of the middle class or it is not going to work.

[mrcheerful]

30. For the major reason that by mentioning the poor and/or poverty will

play right into the right wing nuts propaganda and bliefs. By saying middle class Obama is stopping the right from using give aways to those who don't deserve a break. The average middle class voter out there seem to have no problems with corporate welfare, they are more worried that the poor will get undeserved rewards for sitting on their sofa's instead of working.

I see it all the time here in Michigan, not one eye bat at corporate welfare given to michigan businesses who are laying off workers, moving over sea's etc. With all the job loss going on in the state you'd think most would understand the need for welfare. Not the case, these people are just lazy free loaders that can just pack up their things and move to another state that has lots of jobs, mind you they can't name another state that has job growth, but any other state then michigan has to be doing better.

[ecstatic]

32. Education, upward mobility... It's not mentioned as

specifically all the time, but Obama's proposals will help the poor and the middle class. One of the most pressing issues in disadvantaged neighborhoods is crime and lack of decent educational institutions. Obama wants to fix and add head start programs. Also, when it comes to a single mother trying to better herself by going back to school or starting a new job, a major barrier is child care costs.

Secondly, Obama and others assume that the vast majority of the people who are watching the debates etc. consider themselves to be middle class. I don't think that's an unfair assumption since a truly poor person may not be able to afford the internet and/or cable. I could be wrong, but this sh** costs me at least 80 bucks a month!

Third, the perception is that there are more safety nets for the truly poor than the middle class-such as healthcare, help with food costs, and college tuition. Of course, if you ask the average "middle class" person if they'd trade places with someone who is truly poor, the answer would be no.

[mtnsnake]

54. true

Good post.

I guess Obama is actually addressing many of the needs of poor people without actually saying the P word.

[Bread and Circus]

34. It's very simple: everything "thinks" they are middle class.

[justiceischeap]

35. Easy answer for this question

With the economy the way it is and with the job-loss rate where it is there are more and more people who only months ago were part of the middle class (that really is dwindling) whom now live below the poverty level.

I'd guess they still consider themselves middle-class folks who the Bush admin have waged their own war against. I'd venture a guess that these newly impoverished folks still consider themselves a part of the middle-class but need a helping hand up from our government to return to their middle-class status.

[LiberalAndProud]

36. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Aren't jobs creation and education part of the equation to address poverty issues?

[abbiehoff]

39. They're already calling him a Socialist/Communist

when he's talking about the middle-class.

If he were to specifically target the poor with his concern (which I'm sure is actually there), the outcry would be even greater from the right.

Targeting the middle-class is how he'll get elected. After that he can focus on poverty.

[eshfemme]

40. There's a stigma of being called poor unless you used to be poor then you are rags to riches

Since there is also a stigma to being filthy rich, middle class is the aspired to nomenclature for everyone. Hence, why it is the euphemism for the majority of Americans. Hence why Obama's 95% number is so effective. Even though the $250K cut off point is so ridiculously upper class, it's one that safely includes that 95% even though a large majority are actually earning much much lower than that.

But yeah, it's sad that you can't just speak truth in politics because it gets you in trouble.

[badacid]

41. My Guess

My guess is that just like the uber rich there aren't enough poor people to swing states.

This is wholly a guess and just used a way to illustrate what I am trying to say -
STATE X has 1,000,000 people

People who make > 500,000/yr = 10%
People who make < 30,000/yr = 10%

That leaves 80% or 800,000 voters

However, what Barack "Who Rocks" Obama has done, is also included the bottom 10% into his tax cut.

They aren't being left out of his plan, just out of the rhetoric.

Even if we change it to -
People who make > 250,000/yr = 30%
People who make < 50,000/yr = 20%

That still leave 50% 500,000 voters - Which also includes the < 50k/yr which includes an additional 200,000 voters.

Another thing that may make a difference, is maybe because Democrats are usually the fighters for Medicare and Medicaid it is implied that he will help the poor.

Just my 2 cents

[mtnsnake]

52. "They aren't being left out of his plan, just out of the rhetoric."

Well said, badacid!

Sandnsea also posted something similar. Welcome to DU, BTW!

[Corgigal]

42. The middle class tries to take care of the poor

We are the ones who stock the food banks, adopt a family at Christmas time, give to pet shelters. If I get a few more bucks in my wallet then I can drop in an extra toy in the Marines For Tots container. The rich might write some large checks, but it's to get that tax break.

[sandnsea]

43. health care, education, jobs

These are the issues the poor care about too.

[mtnsnake]

There have been lots of great responses on this thread

but I think yours explains it in a nutshell...or at least explains that poor people will be attracted to what Obama says because of what he is saying, despite the fact that he's addressing the class of people "above" them.

Yup, by talking health care, education, and jobs, Obama is actually talking to the lower class, too, without actually addressing them as a class.

[riverdale]

44. here is why

I once read a poll that really answers your question. I forget the exact numbers, but 95% or something like that of people self-identified as middle class. So if a candidate talks about the poor, to almost everyone, he's talking about someone else.

[kestrel91316]

46. Obama's planned tax breaks will benefit "the poor" along with the middle class.

Not sure why they need to be singled out and labelled with what has increasingly become a slur.

[WinkyDink]

47. Votes.

[rucky]

48. Because most people consider themselves to be middle class.

From salaries between $20,000 and 200,000.

[uppityperson]

67. I agree with this. Most people consider themselves middle class indeed.

[No Elephants]

49. Talking about able bodied, poor adults is not good strategy. He covers seniors, disabled and

kids. What is your point?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. Because The Middle Class Is By Far The Largest Majority.

Everything revolves around the health of the middle class. The fact that the middle class is greatly sinking into the realm of lower class is also by far the biggest issue of this election. The more you get back to healthy middle class, the less poor and lower class you have. So it's total majority status is of course why it's the main focus of the election. And there has absolutely been mention of the Dems about poor and lower class, but it's a no brainer as to why the main focus is on the middle class; which is exactly where it should be during a campaign.

[shugah]

51. because due to the last 8 years

the middle class is increasingly becoming "the poor."

[harun]

57. Because both corporate parties support the oppression of the lower class

it is just the Dem's support it MUCH MUCH less or one could even argue are at least neutral against the lower class.

[nichomachus]

60. Because, without a strong middle class

the poor and lower classes will suffer more. In order to help the poor and lower socio-economic classes, we need to strengthen the middle class.

The problem with the country is that we are destroying the middle class. The rich aren't going to help the poor -- only the middle class does that.

[AngryOldDem]

63. Exactly.

You cannot have a stable society without a solid middle class.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

83. The middle class started being laid off in the Clinton years.

1993 to be exact. I know of a boss that laid off a bunch of employees on January 2, 1993 because he was scared the economy would tank because Clinton was elected. This was a conservative engineering firm.

My career died in 1994 and dried up.

I have an upper middle class education (three degrees, two of them from private institutions).

But have not had a decent job prospect in over a decade. And there are several million of us, overqualified and "too expensive to hire".


:banghead: :wtf:

[Secret_Society]

66. Because most people think they are middle class

Many lower class and upper class people describe themselves as "middle" class

[asdjrocky]

71. So having less money makes me "lower class?"

I guess the people with more money in their pockets are better than me so they are upper class. Cool, I get it now.

[Secret_Society]

74. I was speaking in purely economic terms

[asdjrocky]

68. Shhhhhhh.

Don't you know that the poor in America are always invisible at election time? If you talk too much, or at all, about the poor you do not stand a chance.

[frickaline]

75. Without a middle class, where would the poor aspire to move?

Our middle class has been shrinking for the past 40 years. How many more corrupt CEOs will we create while bankrupting America's middle class backbone? Obama's plan does help the poor. It helps the used-to-be middle class folks who have become poor.

[StrongBad]

76. Because the poor know what's up and are going to vote Obama anyway.

Regarding the middle class, some of them think by voting Republican, they're gonna eventually be just as rich as the rich someday. Only recently has that bubble burst.

[specialed]

77. Time proven fact...If you lift up the middle class

then the poor benefit more than they under any other scenario.

[Naturyl]

80. Very good question, and thanks for asking it.

As a poor person, I'm taking as it sign that my concerns are not a priority.

I am voting for Obama altruistically. That is to say, I have no expectation anything much will improve for me personally. Obama is still the right choice for the rest of the nation, though.

[leftstreet]

84. The US has become so anti-labor, politicians can't even use "working class"

High, middle, low.

What bullshit