Does Anybody Know The Difference Between Wages

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Does anybody know the difference in wages between someone employed in the United States by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, and Mercedes Benz and by Ford, Chrysler, and GM?

And does anybody know the difference in wages between someone employed in the American and the Japanese, Korean, and European auto industries?


I assume it is "roughly" the same...


I see the argument that is much cheaper to build cars in Germany and Japan than it is here...

That doesn't make sense to me...It's not as if those are Third World nations...

[lapfog_1]

1. Mostly because those countries have universal health care

and so the companies that manufacture there do not pay for private health insurance for their workers.

At least that's what someone said on Thom Hartmann yesterday.

[WCGreen]

2. US competitors have state sponsored health and retirement

programs while GM, Ford and Chrysler have to provide those benefits for not only the current workforce but also to the so-called legacy or retired workers.

That is one reason.

But perhaps the greater reason is that oversea competitors have long looked at their customers in a better manner than US companies. Most, if not all, recent innovations in the market place have come from overseas auto companies.


For instance, while GM was spending time and effort on producing pick-up trucks, SUV's and Hummers, the competition was developing state of the environmental and safety oriented product that were brand deep instead of just to those who can afford an Escort.

I think when it comes right down to it, foreign competition has been far more market oriented than US automakers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. I Don't Think Japan Has National Health Care

But Japanese automakers take a paternalistic interest in their employees and ensure that their needs are met provide them with health care and job security...There are few lay offs in the Japanese auto industry...

[WCGreen]

4. I think one of the reasons conservative lawmakers wish to

get rid of GM et al is because they have always supported a state sponsored health care system. It is their contention that the only way they can compete is to nationalize the health care system.

Now I don't know about Japan,but I do know that all of the companies building cars here in the US have health benifits for their American workers. But in Europe, their is a nationalized health care system that allows their manufacturing bave to a leg up when it comes to legacy costs...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Am Committed To Saving The U S Auto Indursty

But I think targeting costs is only one part of the problem. Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans are not cheaper than Fords, Chryslers, and GMS and importy luxury cars are definitely not cheaper...

[Hepburn]

11. Not sure if you are correct on some of this, but I know this part is true:

My 2001 Honda CRV has held it value like a vault. My friend bought a Caddie at the same time I bought my Honda. His Caddie cost about twice what my Honda CRV ~~ an SE version with leather and CD player, deluxe sound, special wheels, etc ~~ cost.

At 20K miles, he had to have an engine replaced, thereafter, he had blown head gaskets (x2), motor mount problems, a radiator replacement and more ~~ and this happened to a guy who is mega particular about the servicing and care of his vehicles. At 60K he turned in his lemon and the dealership gave him $5K. My Honda is nearing 60K in milage right now, it has been treated like a baby and I can sell it for a ton more than $5K. It has NEVER taken anything more than "regular" maintenance and I have replaced the original tires. Other than that, no other costs to maintain the car and keep it on the road. The interior of my Honda looks brand new and the paint still sparkles like the day it rolled out of the factory. Other than one very small door ding, it looks like a new car.

So....for the same number of years and miles, my Honda CRV cost me a hell of a lot less than an expensive top of the line US auto. That is not taking into account cost of license and insurance, MPG on gas, etc. It is a hell of a lot more dependable than a top of the line US made Caddie ~~ which stranded my friend and I at least twice overnight because of major problems. My Honda has never failed to start and it has never had a warning light come on.

Trust me...I will NEVER have anything but a Japanese car EVER! No more American cars for me...they cannot compare with what the Japanese sell. I am hooked on Honda after for YEARS driving nothing but Caddies and Lincolns.

So until such time as the American automaker makes and sells a product that gives me the "bang for my buck" as does Honda, I could not care less if the ground opened and they were swallowed whole. They did it to themselves. No money for an industry that does NOT care to heal itself. It has not given good service to its customers and it has NEVER given a damn about milage, safety or the environment EXCEPT for what it was mandated to do.

JMHO

[WCGreen]

5. BTW, check out htis link...

They do provide national health care...

http://www.nchc.org/facts/Japan.pdf

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. TY

~

[jody]

38. Thanks for the link. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Japan has a universal healthcare system.

It is a mandate system - everyone has to buy in - and the government regulates insurance costs and procedure costs to make sure it is affordable.

In the Japanese health care system, healthcare services, including free screening examinations for particular diseases, prenatal care, and infectious disease control, are provided by national and local governments. Payment for personal medical services is offered through a universal health care insurance system that provides relative equality of access, with fees set by a government committee. People without insurance through employers can participate in a national health insurance program administered by local governments. Since 1973, all elderly persons have been covered by government-sponsored insurance. Patients are free to select physicians or facilities of their choice.

It is compulsory to be enrolled in a Japanese insurance program if you are a resident of Japan. The two main categories of health insurance are referred to as Kenkō-Hoken 健康保険 ( health insurance) and Kokumin-Kenkō-Hoken 国民健康保険 (national health insurance). National health insurance is generally reserved for self-employed people and students, where as social insurance is normally for corporate employees <1>.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan

Note that because of the government regulation, while corporations do provide their employees with insurance, the costs are far lower than our out of control system.

[TahitiNut]

19. Japan has Universal and National Health Care akin to the Canadian or Australian systems

EVERYONE is covered ... nobody is priced out of the market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/rodwin/lessons.html

[Pharlo]

32. Actually, they do have a National Health Care System.

And, while companies do pick up some of the costs, the Japanese government sets prices for procedures that are VERY low. Doctors are not allowed to charge more for a procedure than the price listed by the government. There is no comparative shopping. No matter which doctor you go to, the price will be the same for that procedure. So, while there is still some health care costs picked up by some companies, the costs of procedures are much lower than in the US.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/

[doc03]

8. I don't know about auto workers wages but we have a

German owned chemical plant nearby and they have closed operations over there and shifted production here because our wages are so low in comparison to theirs.

[pampango]

14. I think that is the first time I have heard of a company outsourcing TO the US

"because our wages are so low". A lot of foreign companies build factories here to be closer to the market and for political reasons, but not to save on wage costs.

I know that as of last year Germany was the biggest exporting country in the world (ahead of the US and China) even though their wage, benefits and social services all are at high levels compared to us.

[doc03]

18. That's what an employee at that plant told me a

couple years ago. I asked how they were working there and he said they were at full capacity and that was the reason he gave me. I guess chemical workers must get paid very well in Germany.

[lelgt60]

10. Some statistics from NPR

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/

Summary of a couple of a few of those from yhacker news:

GM======================================Toyota
$1,525 in health care per vehicle $201 in health care per vehicle
$73.73 avg cost of a labor hour $48 avg cost of a labor hour
34.3 hours to build a vehicle 27.9 hours to build a vehicle
Loses $2,331 per vehicle Makes $1,488 per vehicle

As usual , you can't just take these (or any) statistics at face value. There are tons of factors and questions. I suppose it's a start for a discussion, though, which I invite.

[Hepburn]

12. And....

...a Toyota holds its value and is dependable, comfortable and stylish.

Great cars ~~ my friend has a 2002 Avalon ~~ it looks like it is brand new and it is as comfortable as a mega expensive American or European luxury car. She has NO plans to get a new car ~~ her Avalon is dependable, good looking and relatively inexpensive to service.

So....on top of everything you have pointed out ~~ there is a hell of a lot of customer satisfaction with Japanese cars.

:hi:

[BumRushDaShow]

21. But those and Hondas are the most stolen cars in the U.S.

[Hepburn]

26. For a good reason!

What thief in his/her right mind would wish to steal, for example, a 5 year old Caddie?

:evilgrin:

[CreekDog]

39. most stolen cars is a useless statistic because most popular cars = most stolen cars years later

based on the demand for parts and the ubiquitousness of the vehicle on the street.

[GoesTo11]

28. Toyota is starting to jump the shark

I bought a Matrix and it had a problem with the tires that they've known about for years. They have a script at the dealership to try to get you to go away. Bottom line, design flaw and they're not taking responsibility, and I'll have to change tires every 20,000 miles. This is how the US car companies got a lot of people to vow never to buy them again. I'm may never buy a Toyota again. They are starting to coast on their reputation and squeeze the dollars out by screwing customers. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Doityourself]

43. I own a Mitsubishi Gallangt..2003--still love it..no major issues..replaced the tires..and that's it

My second car is a Honda Accord, bought it in 2006, it sits in the garage as good as new! I drive it on long trips. Love it!

I'm not a big fan of American cars..I've seen them die quick deaths withing my own circle.

[Blue Diadem]

13. They don't list CEO's pay, I think there is a tremendous difference.

North American workforce:

GM------------------------------------------------Toyota:

white collar: 36,000 -----------------------------White collar: 17,000

Production: 106,000-------------------------------Production: 21,000

Retirees: 460,000---------------------------------Retirees: 1,600

---------------------------------------------
I bet the numbers have increased quite a bit from 2005 for healthcare costs.

[Ozma]

16. That's quite a difference in labor costs. No wonder the US companies

are failing. They need to give it up.

[amandabeech]

35. I'm not sure if Toyota is paying anything to those retirees.

GM retirees are not even on Medicare. GM has picked up the whole tab until recently, when the UAW agreed to accept those costs, so long as GM paid money into a trust that was supposed to cover it.

GM also has a defined benefit pension plan. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Toyota only offers a 401(k). It's the new model and Toyota adopted it when it moved some operations here.

If I'm right Toyota has no obligations to those retirees beyond making sure that the 40l(k) operates properly.

That's a huge difference.

[Blue Diadem]

37. I have heard that about Toyota and the 401(k).

GM and their policy of letting workers retire at 30 and out had to be expensive. Having to cover the healthcare of those retired workers as you pointed out, who were not ready yet for medicare, had to cost a tremendous amount.

[amandabeech]

41. Thirty years on the line in the past and you were done for physically.

The seniority system gives the older guys the less physically demanding work in many cases, but still, those old plants used a lot of human muscle. My uncle worked at one and he spent several years hauling parts around the plant in a hand truck. He was and is a big strong farm boy, so he was ready, but not everyone can hold up as well as he did. He's still sharp at 88, although he has congestive heart failure that impairs his mobility.

As to the medical care, it extends to death. UAW workers at GM and I think that other biggies do not draw Medicare. Instead, GM and now the benefits trust pay. It's one reason why a bankrupt auto industry would cost the tax payers so much money. More folks on Medicare and a big hit to the PBGC.

I believe that the medical plan predated Medicare which came on line in '67 or '68 under LBJ. It was part of his great society program that really was superb. If only he had been smarter about Viet Nam. *sigh*

My personal opinion is that there will not be enough money put into the benefits trust, and that eventually the Medicare eligible retirees will end up with a high-quality Medigap policy. I believe that there is also a long-term care insurance plan that was also put into the benefits trust, but I'm not sure on that. If they can keep that insurance going, then Medicaid won't have to pay for nursing home care for those retirees who took the offer for the long-term care insurance, like my uncle.

[Blue Diadem]

42. I had no idea GM is self insured.

I also wasn't aware the retirees of age didn't go on medicare. I wonder if all self-insured companies are/were that way? My DH worked for 25 yrs for a supplier to the big 3. That company was also self insured, declared bankruptcy 10 yrs ago and closed. DH's pension went to PBGC.

There's an article today out of Maryland about GM putting them on notice. Apparently GM's self insurance extends to workers comp too.

http://www.hometownannapolis.com/cgi-bin/read/2008/11_16-02/BUS

[lelgt60]

17. The biggest question for me surrounds health care costs and pension liabilities

Those are the things I hear mentioned most in various radio discussions, as well.

Supposedly, US auto manufacturers face much higher health care costs. Are those covered in other ways for Toyota? I don't know.

[doc03]

20. Just guessing but the American auto industry is

very old and with all the outsourcing and plant shutdowns they have an enormous amount of people drawing a pension and health care. Take Honda here in Marysville Ohio the plant probably hasn't been here long enough to have very many people drawing a pension. I don't know but I assume Honda has a Defined Contribution Plan too which is much cheaper than a Defined Benefit Plan such as the big three have. GM also offered a buyout program for 100% of its Union employees a year or so ago and they paid a huge lump sum to some people to retire early. I think Ford and Chrysler had similar buyout plans.

[amborin]

30. toyota == fewer hrs to make because the lines RUN FASTER

anti union

faster lines

younger workforce

non unionized

[1corona4u]

15. I don't know....but I posted this the other day....

<snip>

Despite what you hear from Detroit, our country is a great place to build cars and trucks. The best auto companies in the world are building cars here and plan to expand production in the future.

Toyota Motor (nyse: TM - news - people ) recently opened a new plant in Texas, and is building another factory in Mississippi. The company built 1.3 million cars and trucks in North America last year, most of them in the U.S. Our country is the source of the largest share of Toyota's huge operating profits, probably close to $20 billion in its present (March 31) fiscal year.

Honda (nyse: HMC - news - people ) is building a new plant in Indiana, and its North American production was more than 1.4 million, of which it built 1 million in the U.S. Like Toyota, America is the heart of Honda's profit machine, and its American production was up from the year before. Honda has a huge car-building operation in Ohio, and it has a new factory going up in Indiana--not exactly the Sunbelt.

Nissan (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) has been building cars in Tennessee for years, and now has a new plant in Mississippi. BMW production in South Carolina was 150,000 last year, up nearly 40%, and the Germans just announced that they are spending $750 million to raise capacity to 240,000 a year, and will move X3 sport utility production from Europe to South Carolina. Kia of Korea is building a new plant in Georgia, its first here, not far from the new Hyundai plant in Alabama. Volkswagen (other-otc: VLKAF - news - people ) is thinking hard about building a factory in the U.S., too, and may make an announcement by summer, with the Carolinas and Georgia believed to be in the running.

Of the 15.5 million vehicles built in North American last year, most of them in the U.S., foreign manufacturers accounted for 6 million. They pay good wages and benefits but have an advantage over Detroit with younger, lower-seniority workers and smarter and lower benefit costs. I expect the foreign companies to continue to expand, not only because of their sales growth and the depreciation of our U.S. dollar against their home currencies, but because productivity and quality are high in the U.S.; the market is strong and so are profits. Of course, there are a few exceptions. Volkswagen, for example, still has trouble figuring out the U.S. market, and after years of decline, Isuzu just announced it was quitting the light-vehicle business in the U.S.

Detroit's competitors now have more than U.S. assembly plants, as they are also building design and engineering facilities and test tracks in America. These companies also buy parts from U.S. parts makers or from foreign suppliers that have put up factories in this country.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/11/detroit-nafta-bmw-oped ...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. yeah but they pay their worker $12/14 an hr with $20 a week towards any health insurance for worker

that's it!

[1corona4u]

27. Can you back that up with a link?

Thanks.

[CATagious]

23. When I left Toyota in 2001...

I was making $25 an hour. I would guess that it is now close to $30 an hour plus there are 2 bonuses annually that would push the hourly rate up a few dollars.

Every 6 months, they would give us a comparison of our compensation compared to GM and Ford. At that time, GM and Ford was only slightly higher. I could see if I could get the most current comparison from a friend.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

24. October 1, 2007 ....Toyota pays $24 an hour

Oct. 1--Many of the 30,000 people who applied for Honda jobs in Greensburg had high hopes of landing a big paycheck like the UAW autoworkers who earn $60,000 a year and more.

But when the 2,000-employee car assembly line opens next year, production workers will earn $14.84 an hour -- about $31,000 a year before taxes -- with an automatic $3.71-an-hour raise in 2009.

In a state starved for steady factory work, $31,000 is nothing to laugh at. But it stands out. Honda's paycheck will trail the $51,000 average wage paid by other Greensburg-area manufacturers.


UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle
February 1, 2007 info:http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

[amborin]

31. can you tell us

about what job security you had there?

why did you leave?

what would be your pension if any?

etc....

[ElsewheresDaughter]

25. Feb. 2007 info here

UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle
February 1, 2007

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

[amborin]

29. here in the US the foreign makers are ANTI UNION and UNION BUSTERS

look, for example, at how NIssan BUSTED the UAW's organizing drives at Smyrna

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our fourth quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[Doremus]

34. GM is getting retiree health care costs off its books with a VEBA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=367x7849

[amandabeech]

36. If GM doesn't get some help, it won't be paying into that VEBA.

That's one of the problems.

[jody]

40. Anyone know how Hyundai Motor Company's factory in Ulsan, Korea compares with that of its factory in

Montgomery Alabama?

I asked that question of a friend in Korea, an economist, and was led to believe Hyunda's workers in Korea had benefit packages that were equal to or better than their workers in the U.S.

All I have is his statement and no supporting report, etc.

Can some DUer substantiate or reject that statement?