This was a Big Election about Big Things.

[FrenchieCat]

For Eighteen months, during the primaries and the general election, Barack Obama promised that together we could tackle the big challenges that we face at this time. He pointed out repeately that we could rise or fall together as one.

He warned that the opposition would try and attack on issues of character and cultural values, and hope to make this election about small things.

What Barack Obama didn't say was that this election would be about paying Joe Lieberman back for talking trash at the RNC Convention. He didn't say that it would be about him getting back at Hillary by not considering her for an important position in his cabinet. He certainly didn't say that it was about making McCain and Palin pay for their sins. It wasn't about ignoring those with different views, or demonizing those who sit on the other side of the aisle, or cussing out those who actively caters to the right wing. He didn't indicate that this election was about honoring only those who voted for Barack Obama, and respecting only those who shared his beliefs. He never once mentioned that this election was about holding grudges, insisting on only one way, or risk being offended. This election wasn't about ego, hubris, payback, or revenge.

Barack Obama never said that he was going to make gay marriage legal. Barack Obama always said he would deal in good faith with those who disagreed with him. So those who choose to take a 3rd party 2 minute invocation, and sum it up to be so monumental that nothing else is important about this inauguration or the presidency that will follow, have mistaken this election to be about small things.

If the only thing that matters is one man by the name of Rick Warren and the fact that he offends our sensibilities, and therefore you are willing to flush everything else down the toilet because of feeling betrayed by his 2 minutes at the podium (not yet knowing what he will say), then you didn't win this election anyway, because this election was about really big things. If your issue is Human Rights, than that is an issue bigger than Rick Warren, or so it should be. If you are gonna get hung up on the symbolism of one man's appearance instead of concrete results, than you weren't really voting FOR Barack Obama to begin with......cause he was never that type of candidate.

The one issue voters....those who clung to their guns, their religion, their prejudice, their partisanship; they lost this election big time. The election was won by those who couldn't make it another day without seeing big changes; those with a vision for a brighter future; those who possessed the boldness to elect someone different; those who wanted to see an UNITED States of America. These are the voters that won. These are the supporters who knew their candidate well.

Barack Obama stressed that the road would be long, and that the climb would be steep and often bumpy. He warned us time and time again that he wasn't a perfect man, and that he wouldn't be a perfect President. He brought up the fact that we wouldn't always agree. He assured us that he would listen, and that he would tell us not what we wanted to hear, but what he thought and what sometimes we needed to hear.

So I listened and heard Barack Obama during the election. I believe that Obama will bring great progress to this nation in spite of all of the obstacles put in his way. I trust that even in being saddled with two wars, a dying economy and a million things to do and to undo, he will be a great President.

what is that American promise? It's a promise that says each of us has the freedom to make of our own lives what we will, but that we also have obligations to treat each other with dignity and respect.
----
America, our work will not be easy. The challenges we face require tough choices. And Democrats, as well as Republicans, will need to cast off the worn-out ideas and politics of the past, for part of what has been lost these past eight years can't just be measured by lost wages or bigger trade deficits. What has also been lost is our sense of common purpose, and that's what we have to restore.

We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country.

The -- the reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than they are for those plagued by gang violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals.

I know there are differences on same-sex marriage, but surely we can agree that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve to visit the person they love in a hospital and to live lives free of discrimination.

You know, passions may fly on immigration, but I don't know anyone who benefits when a mother is separated from her infant child or an employer undercuts American wages by hiring illegal workers.

But this, too, is part of America's promise, the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort.

I know there are those who dismiss such beliefs as happy talk. They claim that our insistence on something larger, something firmer, and more honest in our public life is just a Trojan horse for higher taxes and the abandonment of traditional values.
--

And it is that promise that, 45 years ago today, brought Americans from every corner of this land to stand together on a Mall in Washington, before Lincoln's Memorial, and hear a young preacher from Georgia speak of his dream.

The men and women who gathered there could've heard many things. They could've heard words of anger and discord. They could've been told to succumb to the fear and frustrations of so many dreams deferred.

But what the people heard instead -- people of every creed and color, from every walk of life -- is that, in America, our destiny is inextricably linked, that together our dreams can be one.

"We cannot walk alone," the preacher cried. "And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back."

America, we cannot turn back...... not with so much work to be done; not with so many children to educate, and so many veterans to care for; not with an economy to fix, and cities to rebuild, and farms to save; not with so many families to protect and so many lives to mend.

America, we cannot turn back. We cannot walk alone.

At this moment, in this election, we must pledge once more to march into the future. Let us keep that promise, that American promise, and in the words of scripture hold firmly, without wavering, to the hope that we confess.--Barack Obama, National Democratic Convention
http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/conventions/videos/transcripts/20080828_OBAMA_SPEECH.html

[BlooInBloo]

1. Sorry Frenchie - bigot-dud-gate IS big...

It's too bad Obama played into the hand of his haters here who were just looking for and excuse to bitch, but he did.

But we knew ahead of time we were gonna have to work to turn Obama around on gay stuff anyway, so hopefully this can end up pivoting into a step in that direction.

But trying to cover up the huge fuck up doesn't seem helpful to me.

[FrenchieCat]

4. I have more faith in Obama than that.

Obama is not being played, nor is he playing.

It's not a game.

[BlooInBloo]

7. I don't recall saying it was a game, but ok.

EDIT: Rather than wading through the idiocy here, you may want to take a gander at Digby:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/praying-for-realignment-by-digby-ive.html

[FrenchieCat]

10. You said that Obama played into the hands of his haters.

I'm simply saying that this is not a game; that Obama is not playing.....
in fact, he is as serious as a heart attack.

Rick Warren is not the boss of us nor of our future.
He is not the sum of the inauguration......not even close.
Those who believe that nearly two years of toil can be thrown away in just 2 minutes,
Are those who mistakenly believed that this election was only about them, and not all of us.
They see it small that way, and so they lost in November.
They should have voted for John McCain.....
or better yet, they'll have a chance to vote for someone else in 2010.
Till then....it isn't about what one set of people....it is about all of us.
It is about the UNITED States of America.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Ah - trading on that ambiguity - ok.

[RainDog]

81. Would you feel the same way if Obama were white and the pastor was a racist?

Can you honestly say that you would not be right in here among everyone else acknowledging how disgusting it is that, oh, say, David Duke was involved in the inauguration?

I don't think you can be honest and say that you would look at such a pick and say... my president is just trying to be inclusive. he's about the bigger picture. because, simply because of the stands he has taken in his life, the public remarks he has made, the groups he represents - David Duke is a disgusting racist who should NEVER be given a place on the stage with a democrat who claims to believe that racism is not something for democracy to tolerate.

I'm not gay, but I really dislike the way in which it seems to be okay to throw gays under the bus and call such an action "nothing" or small politics. it isn't small at all, and neither was the civil rights movement.

People like Rick Warren as just as bigoted and disgusting as David Duke. Just because he makes a lot of money writing tripe, that doesn't mean he's not just as much of an asshole.

[Jim Sagle]

70. Ahh yess...faith-based voting. What could go wrong?

He's testing our faith, and some of us have been found wanting.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

85. I'm sorry you backed the wrong horse.

I'm not sure what you want beyond that.

[Jim Sagle]

86. Actually I'm sorry YOU backed the wrong horse. But I feel fine now.

:beer:

[BlooInBloo]

87. Touche...

Except that you lost. Other than that, touche.


EDIT: And I suppose I'll never see you supporting any post that has the gist "the primaries are over", eh? hhahahahah!

[Leftest]

83. Its a lot of other things that he DID pledge, but, now is going back on

Raising taxes on the rich back to what is was during the Clinton administration. He's now flip flopping on that.

Corporate tax cuts he said were the opposite of what America needs. He's now flip flopping on that too.

Immediate withdraw of troops out of Iraq. He's now flip flopping on that too.

FISA and retro active immunity. He said he was against both and pledged to filibuster any bill that included immunity. He flip flopped on that too.

Moratorium on oil companies drilling off the coasts. He's flip flopped on that too.

Conservatives didn't do anything to help him get elected but everything to keep him from being elected. Gays, on the other hand, did a lot to help him get elected. How does he pay them back? He rewards conservatives at the expense of insulting the gay community.


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[BlooInBloo]

88. Sorry tiger. They DON'T all add up to the same thing. Context matters.

Except to fucking idiots.

It's precisely because of that fact, indeed, that Obama gets demerits for having fucktardantigaybigotdude give his inaugural.


EDIT: Though I do thoroughly appreciate how many of you have just been DROOOLING for the chance to whine. Unfortunately, it's only on this one thing. It's a big thing, but it's still only one thing. And it's the very same thing that we knew we'd have to work on Obama with from the get-go.


EDITEDIT: Typo correction ("change" -> "chance").

[akbacchus_BC]

76. myopic much! Give reach across the aisle a chance, then we will

have peace!

[JVS]

91. It's a mistake, but I think his haters are overplaying their hand.

[Splinter Cell]

2. Great post.

Thank you.

[ruggerson]

3. The fact that the man who is opening the celebration of our new President

runs a church where me and my partner of eleven years CANNOT BE MEMBERS because of who we are is a VERY BIG THING, Frenchie.

[FrenchieCat]

6. What do you think is the real purpose of allowing this man to speak for 2 minutes?

Please tell me.

[ruggerson]

8. I have absolutely no idea

I refuse to believe that Obama did this using us some kind of Sister Souljah. I don't think he's that kind of human being.

So you tell me. Imagine if a President that you just voted for had the Pastor/Chaplain of Jim Jones University open his inauguration. Would you be mildly ticked? (and at least Jim Jones took black kids in as students. They just didn't let them date whites.)

[FrenchieCat]

14. First I would wait to see what this past/Chaplain would have to say.

I certainly believe in redemption.

Remember that I am from one of those improbable Black/White unions.
I have experienced a whole lot of hatred, as I was born in 1958....and still, I'm not bitter.
If Obama didn't have much to say about the nooses, the photos of him as a target,
the waffle boxes, the "I'll vote for the nigger", the "B" girl, the threats on his life,
the photos of Michelle morphed as a monkey, etc...
than I could certainly survive a 2 minute invocation...yes, even from someone I was supposed to hate.

But better yet, I heard what Obama said throughout these elections.
He said to treat others as you would want to be treated.

There really are different ways to look at this invite.....
even if there are those who say there is only one way.

[rosesaylavee]

66. I am thinking of this quote a lot this week

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing that it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.

Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder the hate. So it goes.

Returning violence for violence multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that.

Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[jberryhill]

92. Heh... Jim Jones / Bob Jones

Jim Jones was the dude in Guyana with the Kool Aid.

Bob Jones is the school that changed its policies on race after becoming engaged in politics and constantly having it pointed out to them.

[Critters2]

9. Expanding Obama's base among fundies, whom he sees as a large

electorate, at the expense of glbts, whom he sees as a small enough group to be insignificant.

What do you think is the real purpose?

[FrenchieCat]

19. I think the purpose is to unite Americans

and work towards a common purpose. Obama doesn't believe that the Fundies will end up voting for a Pro-choice Black man who they suspect is a Muslim anti-Christ in large numbers.....but he believes that if he can get them to listen, he can affect change in this country more effectively.

The election is over. He is not attempting to expand his base. The entire United States is already his base at this point, as he won the election.

But go ahead and keep thinking that the Gay Community is worth no more than 2 minutes.

[Critters2]

20. I'm a member of the lgbt community. I know my worth.

I wish my president did.

[FrenchieCat]

31. You are worth the same as everyone else, not more, not less......

The President knows that.

I think that the fact that proposition 8 took something away after it was given
is unforgivable. I don't personally believe that voters should be able to vote
on the human rights of a minority. period.

Perhaps that is why Obama supported the defeat of Proposition 8.

that being said,
Obama never Flinched when his face appeared on waffle boxes as a caricature,
when his wife was photoshopped as a monkey and called unpatriotic or he was called the antichrist, or threats are made on his life. Perhaps the difference is that he knows what he's fighting for specifically and where he is going....
and so although he respects everyone, including those you may not, and those who may not respect him in return, he is not about treating everyone as though they were a delicate flower....cause that is not how progress is made. Certainly you can feel that you have been insulted if you choose, but at the end of the day this election was about this entire country, and not just some. This election was not only about proposition 8, and certainly not about Rick Warren. It is about as many Americans as possible coming together for the common good.

I believe that there is a reason to why he has chosen those he has chosen to speak. As a liberal, I will not judge the occasion of the inauguration till I have seen and heard it.

[Critters2]

32. I don't need your fucking permission to feel anything.

And I AM PART OF THIS ENTIRE COUNTRY!!!


I am sick of the patronizing condescension. Obama is treating glbts like shit. Whether you see it or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FrenchieCat]

35. You are sick of discussion and debate?

That ain't good. If you are going to be a front line soldier seriously fighting for what you know is right, getting pissed because someone said something that you don't like ain't gonna necessarily get you what you want.

I'm on your side, until you tell me that I am not.
You see, it is your choice....cause I've already made mine....
I'm not into fast food, instant gratification, or 2 minute "your time is up" democracy.
I'm not into haters or hating.
I'm into working towards the positive in a constructive way.
I'm into understanding that sometimes things come easy,
and sometimes they don't.....but if one keeps at it, we will get there.

You should feel and do as you wish......which should go without saying.

[Critters2]

36. So you ARE granting permission?!

Go to hell.

[FrenchieCat]

40. I've been living in hell for the last 8 years.

so you telling me to go there ain't nothing new.
I've been disrespected by plenty my entire life,
adding you to the list won't make my day.
I'm used to fighting on the frontlines.....
there is very little you can do to hurt me,
but there is much that we can do to help each other.

[Critters2]

42. Can you be legally married?

Yeah. I thought so. Welcome to ignoreland.

[FrenchieCat]

46. My parents couldn't be.

Welcome to ignorant land.

[mtnester]

58. Which says a lot now doesn't it?

And really shows your entire apologist OP for what it is.

The fact that you continue to defend Obama's actions in this matter after uttering this...what does that make you now? You either lack the most common of sense to understand why this is an issue; are a campaign apologist sent to the internet to explain "what I really meant to say/do"; or you are a degreed homophobe/bigot (pick your degree..a little bit, a lot.. it does not matter, ANY degree would make you one).

Pick one. Or, a better option would be to get a clue and figure out this is a terrible decision by Obama and show some real SUPPORT for millions in the GLBT community, AND their families, loved ones and friends, who showed real SUPPORT for Obama in his bid for president.

Own one of these and stop throwing garbage bags of spin on the lawns of the rest of us who get it.

When we can be glad those in our GLBT communities have the equal rights that were rightfully accorded to your parents, then we can all celebrate. None of us can let incidents of obvious bigotry, no matter how small some may THINK it is, go by without calling it for what it is. Death by a thousand cuts is the same, in the end, as death by the single lethal blow. Both should be stopped.




edit - spelling only

[WeDidIt]

69. I'm not buying it, Frenchie

It was nothing more than a cynical move for political expedience.

Nothing more.

[Bravehammer]

16. To cynically use GLBT'rs in a Sista Souljah moment.

[FrenchieCat]

18. Well, you didn't vote FOR Obama on November 4th then......

cause that is not who Obama is....even if you think so.

[Bravehammer]

26. Who the F**k are you to tell me how valid my vote was?

[FrenchieCat]

38. Taking offense? Is that's what works around here?

Your fucking vote was as valid as you want it to be.

[Solomon]

63. Thanks for trying Frenchie, but it's useless.

I'm really having to hold my tongue because I support gay rights, but the overreaction... What the hell. It's useless. I'm really starting to get turned off, you know. Left, meet the right, right, meet the left.

[Number23]

84. That's my issue too

I support gay marriage and gay rights and I'm about two seconds from cussing folk the **** out in here. It is MADDENING that there are some who equate those who aren't hurling molotov cocktails over this idiot's 120 second speech at Obama's inauguration as "denying gays their civil liberties" and being "bigots."

Folks are screaming and cursing as if folks on DU have been out in the streets working 7 days a week denying gays the right to live their lives as they choose and that is simply not the case.

It is INCOMPREHENSIBLE for some here to understand that there are countless numbers of people who support gay rights, have gay friends and family that they love and want DESPERATELY for gay discrimination to end and who STILL DON'T HAVE A MAJOR ISSUE with Rick Warren speaking at Obama's inauguration. I don't understand why that is so difficult to understand but this whole thing is fraying my nerves and usually I'm pretty UN-frayable.

[saracat]

78. Politics and expanding the Obama base at the expense of the dignity of

women, Jews and the GBTL Community. After all, who else could they vote for in 2012? Some on DU have stated it, it is to split open the Evangelical GOP base!

[my2sense]

5. K & R

[TreasonousBastard]

12. I hear ya, and it fascinates me that...

this two minute invocation has overwhelmed everything else we've all worked for.

Sure, coming right on the heels of Prop 8 this is a particularly painful slap and was likely a very serious miscalculation by a team that normally doesn't make mistakes.

But, what happens the day after the inauguration when he takes office? Is he suddenly a lying monster who won't honor any of his words or promises?

We've got four years, maybe eight, of more hard work coming to fix the mess we have and set the nation on a new course. Destroying chances of that work happening over a perceived insult is not the way to go.

[Bluebear]

13. Remember. Rick Warren ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNED for Prop 8.

Dobson sent him a thank you letter.

The painful slap is that Warren was invited despite working for prop 8.

[FrenchieCat]

17. Proposition 8 shouldn't have never even made it onto a ballot.......

But there it was. I voted against it....as did each and everyone of my family members. The Proposition passed. It is not the end of this....however,
meanwhile, I will listen to what Rick Warren has to say in the two minutes he will be alloted.
I want to hear him talk to all Americans. I want to hear what he has to say.
Perhaps because I am a liberal......and my mind and eyes are wide open.

[Critters2]

22. He's been pretty clear about what he has to say. He hates women and gays.

My eyes are open, too.

[Critters2]

33. Proposition 8 shouldn't have never even made it onto a ballot.......BUT?!

God, you just DO NOT get it!

[TreasonousBastard]

39. Yeah, he did. So did a lot of people. But he's becoming...

the most influential fundagelical out there and going to war with him will end badly.

Rather, there seems to be little to lose trying to work with him to see what other points of agreement we can come up with.

[EFerrari]

15. If speaking up about an injustice can "destroy" the chances of that work,

it didn't have much of a chance in the first place.

[FrenchieCat]

24. The chance is still there and there are many of us that will make it happen

aside from those who have already made up their minds
That no slight is too slight.
Problem for those trigger happy to make it not work,
is that 4 year is not fast food.
There will be no instant gratification for any group.

[EFerrari]

29. Oh, please. I was responding to another poster in his terms.

[TreasonousBastard]

37. Missing my point entirely...

it's not speaking up that's the problem, it's giving up.

Like piling on Obama before he even gets in office for possible future crimes and slights he might be guilty of some time in the future.

It's a damn struggle out there to get anything and whining, bitching and complaining get you squat. Nobody's going to give you shit out of the kindness of their hearts.

What does get you what you want is selling your point of view and out-organizing the opposition. Yeah, you do lose a lot of the time, but nobody has any sympathy for whiners. You pick your ass up from the ground and go back and fight some more. You will win once in a while.

Fighting Warren will not end well. He represents a good third of the country and won't be beaten into submission. He has already poked olive branches our way and is working with us on the environment and many health and rights issues worldwide. He has already hinted that he may be willing to work with the "hate the sin, love the sinner" attitude and expand gay rights-- short of marriage, of course. Why throw that out over a perceived insult?

[EFerrari]

52. No, I didn't miss your point. And no one has given up and we will continue

to fight the showcasing of bigots like Warren, who is not only an insult to gay people but also to women and to Jews.

But, thanks for the free advice.

[EFerrari]

21. Minimizing Obama's mistake as you do in this post

and putting it on the GLBT community as if it is somehow their error is not useful.

[FrenchieCat]

44. You call it a mistake.....I don't

I'm not making an either/or Obama versus the Gay Community, you are.

You see, not everyone thinks that this is a mistake....
even if some are going there....
and others are following close behind.

This election is over.
It's time to get things done.
You can stay mad in the hallway if it will make you feel better,
I'm going in....eyes wide open.

I'll see you in about 100 days.

[libnnc]

23. this "preacher" makes millions of bucks telling his "flock"

that my 17 year relationship is just as sinful as child molesting...that I "suffer" from an "illness" that is like alcoholism...

And the Obama team thinks it's a good idea to "embrace" this "preacher" by giving him the HONOR of leading the invocation at the inauguration?

It's wrong. Way wrong.

[firedupdem]

25. Good Post Frenchie...

While I don't care for Warren being a part of the inaugural he will be. I will not allow his presence to dominate the inaugural. It is for all the people. Warren's base is pissed at him being there and this side is as well. Hopefully this will open up some communication. If we listened to Obama we knew he was never about division. I am filled with glee about this new administration and not one person will steal my joy and that includes Warren's hateful self.

Reminds me of when I would ask my father why MLK and the movement didn't retaliate when they were taking the forceful spray of water hoses, beatings, dogs turned lose on them etc. He explained to me it was because we had a bigger purpose and vision. The haters kept on hating and we kept on moving forward. Some changed their views others did not. We need to keep moving forward.

[Bravehammer]

27. Any links to this pissed off base for Warren?

[firedupdem]

28. I saw some on another thread that I didn't keep...but yes, I have

nothing to gain by making that up. Someone posted from some other website with people very pissed that he was involved with "that one" etc. They were feeling betrayed etc.

[Bravehammer]

41. The right seems to be enjoying this quite a bit

This is not the first time Obama has chosen politically expedient "inclusion" over allegiance to gay rights. In the South Carolina primary, when Obama needed to appeal to socially conservative blacks backing Hillary Clinton, he had gospel singer Donnie McClurkin sing at a rally. McClurkin's stated views that being gay is a "curse" curable by prayer are much more controversial than Warren's mere opposition to gay marriage, but Obama had him sing at the concert nonetheless. Later, he said he was "disturbed" by those views, but that McClurkin was just one of many acts and of course Obama "disagreed" with him.

Dear liberals, This is the man you voted for, through and through.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/12/the_left_this_is_not_the_obama.asp

------------------------------------------

Ahmadinejad? Great Idea! ... Rick Warren? Over The Top!
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/12/ahmenidajad-great-idea-rick-warren-over-the-top.html

If politics was once said to stop at the waters edge, according to today's liberals, tolerance and reaching out to the opposition sure does. Unfortunately, as usual, I think they have it back asswards.

A Gay imprisoning, if not executing, Ahmadinejad who wants to destroy Israel is worth talking to. A conservative American minister, ... pure evil that.

Though Ahmadinejad and the Left do both seem to hate America as it is and as it sometimes votes and acts. I guess that's enough to try and find more common ground.

--------------------------------------------

The first problem in figuring out what Obama is trying to signal here is that his own position on same-sex marriage seems inconsistent. He claims to oppose same-sex marriage, but also opposed Proposition 8.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/community/groups/index.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aa70e3396-6663-4a8d-ba19-e44939d3c44fForum%3a5543a34c-af92-4736-b81b-4aad0ab02e2eDiscussion%3a99329bc7-ed01-45be-9faf-e3409d51aaf9

But here's one way of looking at it. Obama stood with liberals in opposition to the proposition. But he does not regard supporters of the proposition, even vocal ones, as irredeemable bigots. By giving Warren a platform, Obama is not endorsing his views--but he is saying that those views are a legitimate part of the national conversation.

That's not a snub of liberals. But it is a swipe at one type of liberalism--the type that has been working to get people fired for making donations to the campaign for the initiative, that has attacked the Mormon Church for its support of it, and so forth.

Not many liberals have spoken up against these tactics. Liberals should not be surprised that Obama has refused to join an effort that implicitly brands a majority of the voters of California, of all places, as at best the dupes of bigots. But those liberals who are engaged in that effort should indeed feel snubbed--as they deserve to be.

[firedupdem]

43. I'm sure with all this information and your 50 posts after joining just

yesterday that you didn't vote for him nor are you a supporter and probably not a liberal. You are a disruptor and you are here just to fan the flames and fires. You are enjoying the fact that so many are hurt and upset by this issue. You're not real at all. You are also now on ignore.

[Bravehammer]

49. 15 seconds at Memeorandum.com will get you this info, I asked you to back up

your assertion you did not. I went to see what was out there, you should try it sometime.

[Jamastiene]

55. Liberals hate America?

Did you take a wrong turn at Albuquerque?

[Bravehammer]

57. Problem with reading comprehension?

Read the sub-thread for context. Those are not my words or sentiments.

[AtomicKitten]

30. .

[grantcart]

34. It is about big issues and Warren is about more than just proposition 8

To begin with his attacks on Gays go beyond just marriage but also to adoption and basic civil rights

While Warren originally thought that evolution and the bible were compatible he no longer does. He has grown more anti intellectual.

He believes that we should assissinate Ahmadinejad.


But it goes beyond that. He is against a confessional connected Church with peer review seminaries.


He is an anti intellectual.


One of Obama's main points is to be against "stupid" even if lots of people seem to support it.


There were lots of Evangelical pastors that could have been chosen that are not against civil rights, not anti intellectual and actually want to work with President Elect Obama. Richard Cizik for one.


Obama said that we wouldn't always agree with him.


Well we don't agree and we shouldn't.


If that makes it appear that he is more central so that he can pull more in our way other times then it will have been a master stroke but I don't think that is the case. That could have been achieved with a moderate Evangelical. This simply confirms Warren as Billy Graham's successor and it makes me sick.


If Rick Warren were a scientist and was as stupid on his science as Warren is on his Bible, including the Creation story, then he would be laughed out of a University. Warren's views haven't been considered acceptable at mainline denomination seminaries for 70 years.


We can reach out to conservatives but we don't have to reach out to stupid.

[cali]

45. Obama brought this on himself.

He could easilty have avoided this mess. Whether you think the reaction is justified or is overblown, it's entirely of his own creation. He should have foreseen the pain and anger this would engender. It wasn't that hard. Whatever he may gain by having Warren speak, isn't enough. It is a betrayal.

[FrenchieCat]

47. It is a betrayal why?

What promise did he break?

[cali]

48. It's a betrayal of human decency.

It's standing with hate, ignorance and bigotry. It's a tacit endorsement that the bile that Warren spews, tarted up in folksiness, is legitimate.

This isn't about some narrow little promise that Obama broke, and it's very sad that you actually view it that way.

I don't view the world in simplistic terms. I haven't lost all trust in Obama because of this, but I recognize that it is indeed a betrayal- likely one born out of a political calculation.

Rick Warren isn't just anti-marriage equality. He's downright homophobic. He's compared Obama to a a Holocaust denier. He's accused women like me who have had abortions, of being perpetrators of a holocaust. He is, in short, what's wrong with the social wingnuts.

[libnnc]

50. thank you

Obama has stepped in one huge ginormous pile of stupid. I don't know how he can fix this. The timing is either incredibly dumb or incredibly callous. Either way, it sucks...royally.

[FrenchieCat]

51. Obama has been called worst things that than.....

perhaps his mistake was to think that we, like him, as liberals
would be open to discourse even with our enemies.

Perhaps he did calculate that those who follow Rick Warren (it is not only Fundie Churches that hailed his book) will have an open ear to what he will talk about on the 20th.

Perhaps he does want to reach the majority in reference to the rights of the minority...since it appears that the majority is the one with say over Minority rights (which shouldn't be set up that way to begin with).

Perhaps he does believe he'll be able to peel off the 5% that when converted will add to our numbers and help get done what is needed.

As I always do, I will hear what will be said on 1/20 before I make any judgment
as to why what was done was done.

[cali]

53. oh, please.

first of all, being open to discourse with "our enemies" is not an excuse. Putting Warren up there, and lending him the legitimacy of the Presidency- yes, that is what it does- isn't about discourse. And maybe you're right about his motives, but that doesn't change that he's bestowed upon Warren and his ideas a patina of legitimacy from the President of U.S.

As I said, this could easily have been avoided. Obama owns this mess. I only hope he can dig himself out. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see this become an even bigger deal than it now is.

I'm truly sad about this. It's put a big fat stain on a day I was so looking forward to.

[FrenchieCat]

56. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the size of the mess.

I realize that getting attention for a cause is always good for activists, and I see this (and they clearly do as well) as an opportunity to be as vocal as possible while they have the spotlight.....and there ain't nothing wrong with that.

If this opportunity is used to talk that much more loudly about Gay rights, fine by me. Even if this is an opportunity to deride that demonizer, that is good too. If it is used as an opportunity to slime our next President, then we are only hurting ourselves in a long run. Any mess is our mess, in particular, during these fucked up times.

[libnnc]

62. do you understand that this all comes on the heels of Prop 8

really horrible timing

Do you get that?

[Political Tiger]

54. Thank you for the wonderful post!

I agree completely and you said it beautifully!

[eridani]

59. Civil rights for everybody, no exceptions, is a Big Thing n/t

[polichick]

60. Yep - with liberty and justice for ALL.

[FrenchieCat]

61. Oh, I agree with that......

And it appears that there are a few more who need to agree in order to get it done.
A majority coalition is sadly required, since the majority voting on the minority's rights is apparently how things are done (which really shouldn't be the case).
If Obama has determined that outreach to an additional persuadable 5% is required,
and achieving it by bringing in Warren might make it possible,
than taking the long view of keeping an eye on the prize,
is more valuable than a 2 minute appearance .
It will be the results that count in this case,
that of Human Rights for all.

[phleshdef]

64. Great post. Unfortunately many are too blinded by their hatred for Warren to get it though.

Obama could drive a steak through the heart of anti-gay sentiment with policy after policy and you would still have a bunch of people bitching about this.

I don't think people even know how to approach handling a president that actually does have their interests at heart with policy.

[EFerrari]

79. I hope Obama refrains from attacking citizens with cut of beef.

We've been embarrassed enough in the last eight years.

[glowing]

65. Sorry, the Prop H8 awakened a slumbering giant. Californians took away

rights people had. AND now people living in other states are wondering why there are laws made specifically against them. Sorry, Obama is WRONG on this one. There is listening and debate, but when it comes to tolerating bigotry and hate; there is NO COMPROMISE.

[loyalsister]

67. Thanks for the reminder

All of the assumptions and generalizations flying are distorting the issue.
The truth is this selection fits with his broad message of tolerance and unity.
As for the racists, am I the only person here who has to spend time with unsavory family members over the holidays? I guess the more pure and ethical thing would be to disown my grandparents, but despite their religion and racism I somehow have been able to find some redeeming qualities.
Maybe I'm just sentimental. :shrug:

[LeftCoast]

68. Obama could strangle a puppy on live TV and you'd excuse him

You're no better than the worst of the Bushies.

[Bette Noir]

82. That's a bit extreme.

Frenchie is better than any Bushie, and better than most Democrats. On this point, however, I disagree with her.

The Warrens of the world would, if they could, imprison many of my best friends, and strip them of all their civil rights. I don't see that this is a position that I can compromise with.

On the other hand, there is an interesting column in the Washington Post that sees this in another light:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR2008121902414.html

[AZBlue]

71. K&R

[saracat]

72. This isn't about "disagreeing: about anything in "good faith" and this is an issue more important .

than Obama himself. This is about respect for human rights and decency and there can be NO compromise on that issue. We learn from history that "appeasement" buys us nothing. There can be no tolerance or compromise on Human Rights.

Obama did not promise to legalize Gay Marriage but he did promote treating women and GBTL citizens with respect and dignity and he is the one breaking that promise. It is NOT possible to "honor" a man such as Warren with a prominent place in a State Occasion (and it is not just a 2 minute speech, it is a prayer representing ALL of us) and not dishonor and humiliate those he holds in contempt at the same time.

This is not a question of differing "opinions" unless you agree one can think it acceptable to classify GBTL citizens with child molesters , pro-choice women with Holocaust purveyors and that the Jews ought not to exist.

These "opinions" and ideology are intolerable and should not be given the dignity of reflecting our values as a nation at a significant historical event.If the Prez elect finds it necessary to compromise on human decency in order to show respect to such a person, I will not support this.

I have no obligation to offer such a person "respect and dignity" because he offers it to no one but himself and his kind. He does not offer it to me and respect must be mutual.

The acknowledgment of such a man as Rick Warren is not a March to the future but a march back wards and if this is what the Prez elect proposes, he will have to "walk alone" because most of us will NOT turn back.

And before you attack me as a "hater", I admit I did not support Obama in the primary but I did vote for him and I did campign for him though I wasn'ta fan. He was the lesser of two evils for me.I couldn't stand the thought of McCain/Palin even near the White House, but even I , who didn't expect much, didn't expect to see blatant disrespect of the citizens of this nation bu the man they had elected.

[akbacchus_BC]

77. Since he was a lesser of two evils? Who is the first evil? Get over

the primaries, will you? Far as I know he and Senator Clinton were vying for the Democratic nomination!! Lesser of two evils, my ass!

[saracat]

80. I refer to McCain and the GE. Sigh.

[Runcible Spoon]

73. Energizer Bunny...

You just keep going and going and going and going.

Riddle me this: what the fuck do you think you're gaining from posting this? I mean, you're free to do what you want, but why? Would it be so hard for you to just let people be angry without shoving a bunch of Hope-ade down their throats? Rub salt in wounds and belittle truly hurt feelings? Hardly anyone here is "flushing it all away" but you better be damn sure that Obama is going to hear from us when he fucks up. And that is what he has done. There is NO excuse, not even political expediency or any twisted "unity" bullshit that excuses legitimizing that piece of shit.

[sureiachan]

74. To each a platform

If giving Rick Warren 2 minutes to speak can ease some minds and be used as a lever to allow others to speak (with opposing viewpoints) then I think Obama's choice is well-served. If Rick Warren's base becomes alienated by his appearance, perhaps this can also be well-served.

Tolerance and Unity are the order of the day. Diplomacy is what we want, not condemnation.

[akbacchus_BC]

75. Frenchie, great post. PE Obama said he was going to reach across

the aisle, guess he did, but somehow I feel he made a poor choice.

However, whatever his reason for picking Rick Warren for a two-minute speech is good enough for me. I live in Canada and we do not have the same issues. I am honestly thinking that he is trying to bring homophobes on board so that he can convince them that whether we are straight or not, there is a place for us.

Just my thinking! Please don't tell me am Canadian and I do not count.

Peace

[bertman]

89. Error: you can only recommend a thread blah blah. Beautifully stated, Frenchie Cat!!

[bread_and_roses]

90. what a wonderful job of rationalization and distortion! (n/t)

[Hansel]

93. The gesture Obama is making is to reach out to one side

at the sacrifice of the dignity of the other. And I'm sure you would clearly understand this if you really thought about it.

Rick Warren was outspoken and instrumental in the passage of Prop 8. On the same night that Mr. Obama leaped over a large hurdle that bigots had long put in his way, some of the same people who were instrumental in helping him to clear that hurdle (some of our fellow DU'ers) were stripped of their constitutional rights because of the bigoted actions of Warren and his ilk.

Mr. Obama's gratitude for their hard work and faith in him was to invite this bigot to the celebration of this historical win. And when they voice their hurt and disappointment, those who don't get it condescendingly lecture them about what it means to be inclusive like they don't understand. Like they are too stupid to get it and as though they are the ones who worked so hard to humiliate and denigrate other people.

Mr. Obama's choice of Rick Warren is a mistake and by this time he knows it. He and the supporters of this decision lecturing the people who are hurt by that choice is ironic and cruel. The very people, who despite suffering daily the pain of one of the last "acceptable" bigotries in the US. and who have never campaigned to strip others of their rights and who helped put the first African-American into the White House while racism is still rampant in America, are now being lectured like children about what is means to be inclusive. They are being told their hurt and pain are not legitimate and not as important as just about everything else.

Obama has chosen to elevate Warren as the symbol of American's spirituality in one of the most visible events in history. He is not inviting him to a meeting in the oval office to discuss social issues. Obama's response to their pain is to dismiss it and to shame them and to defend a man who wouldn't even allow them in his church because he is such a bigot. How about that for inclusion?

This is about respect and honor and gratitude and trust. Obama has chosen sides despite his claim that he wants to be inclusive. He has chosen to hear and respect Rick Warren, while he has turned a cold shoulder to the people he has hurt most by this decision.

There is nothing you can say about Obama's motives that are going to help. Obama is wrong here and he is the only one who can fix it.